zofka@cernvax.UUCP (zofka) (04/15/88)
And now, what about networking with the Amiga. There is a big hole in the SoftWare market. Amigas now need Networks. As we all know, every machines present in offices use networks. AppleTalk for Mac and few others for IBM. Amiga has no capability to communicate with others ones (except with DNET (1 other)). I can't recommend Amiga to peoples how need it in offices. Ethernet is to expensive and not easy to install. Last month, I saw an article about AppleTalk on comp.sys.amiga. The author said that he can write the code but the amiga has no capability to send packets at high speed thru serial port... If you need an cheap, low-cost, auto-config, zorro,... board for your software, I CAN DO IT. I have currently two quiet terminated development and it's very easy to implement fast serial lines (specialized chips exists and doesn't cost a lot). 25 chips on a card, including auto-conf and buffering and for 200$ we can have an AppleTalk... And for A500 thru A99999999 ;-). I have no time to develop software like networks but a small card is only few weeks to develop (I can write the driver too if you need). Time to create the NDG no ? (Network Development Group)... Interested ??? Just reply on the Net or by mail zofka@cernvax.UUCB zofka@cernvm (Bitnet) milan@BIX (Bix) Milan Zofka 26, rte d'Annecy CH-1256 TROINEX GENEVA SWITZERLAND ========================================================================= Last thing.... Excuse my so bad english... Do you prefer well written french?
root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (SBCS Systems Staff) (04/17/88)
In article <648@cernvax.UUCP>, zofka@cernvax.UUCP (zofka) writes: > And now, what about networking with the Amiga. > > There is a big hole in the SoftWare market. Amigas now need Networks. Amiga has had networks for at least 1-2 years. Ameristar supplies IP/TCP, NFS, Telnet, etc and an Ethernet board for 2000's (500's soon). Catina supplies a peer to peer network. I think Nine Tiles in England supplies some sort of token ring board. Although I personally am hard pressed to call it a network, CLtd supplies some software for their SCSI controllers which allows disk sharing. I heard people talking about TOPS, Appletalk, DECNET, ISO, etc, etc. There is Dillon DNET. UDEL has a PD port of Phil Karns excellent IP/TCP package. Dale Luck is working on Xwindows window server. Ameristar is working on Sun's NeWS window server. YES zofka, the Amiga has networking. > > As we all know, every machines present in offices use networks. > AppleTalk for Mac and few others for IBM. Amiga has no capability > to communicate with others ones (except with DNET (1 other)). > You're wrong about the Amiga talking to other Amigas. Also, in the States, Ethernet is probably the single most important network at least in the scientific/engineering markets. > I can't recommend Amiga to peoples how need it in offices. Ethernet is > to expensive and not easy to install. > Ethernet costs what it does because of the volume that the Amiga market can support. For example, Ameristar would do cartwheels and drop their prices if they could ship 10% of what 3Com does in the PC market. It takes a lot more money to run a company + pay even small salaries (& overhead), power bills, phone bills, etc than you realize. All of this gets amortized into the board cost as overhead and of course the more boards you ship, the less overhead you pay/board. I would also hasten to point out that, for example, Suns PC/NFS plus a 3Com PC Ethernet board is $900 last time I checked. This is what Ameristar charges for equivalent functionality on the Amiga. And I can tell you that they sell at least 10X as many packages as Ameristar does (PC/NFS supposedly sold 2000 units on the first day orders were accepted). If you're complaining that Ethernet is inherently more expensive, well I think you're wrong but I will argue the point via e-mail. > Last month, I saw an article about AppleTalk on comp.sys.amiga. > > The author said that he can write the code but the amiga has no capability > to send packets at high speed thru serial port... > Not quite. The Amiga hardware is not compatible with the hardware attributes of the Appletalk net. It's more than just a level shifting problem too! > If you need an cheap, low-cost, auto-config, zorro,... board for your > software, I CAN DO IT. I have currently two quiet terminated development > and it's very easy to implement fast serial lines (specialized chips > exists and doesn't cost a lot). 25 chips on a card, including auto-conf > and buffering and for 200$ we can have an AppleTalk... And for A500 > thru A99999999 ;-). > I've looked at it, and I can tell you that you will not be able to build it, sell it, and make money at a $200 price point. In the first place, you will not be able to play the same games as Apple did in their implementation, ie basically have the processor poll the serial port. The data comes in at about 230.4 Khz/8, and you can't catch it byte by byte with the processor and still multitask. You will need DMA or at least a small processor + buffer ram on the card. All of this drives the cost up. The other problem with Appletalk, at least if you listen to people who have them running is that it doesn't scale, it doesn't give you the bandwidth you need, etc. We ought to learn this lesson from the Mac people before we go out and build a network interface that is already obsolete. > I have no time to develop software like networks but a small card is only > few weeks to develop (I can write the driver too if you need). > If you have no time to develop, then you clearly have no time to do the support work. Ameristar spends quite a bit of telephone time doing support, eg helping people debug their networks they already have installed before the Amiga ever arrived! > Time to create the NDG no ? (Network Development Group)... I don't think so, but then I am biased. > > Interested ??? Just reply on the Net or by mail > > zofka@cernvax.UUCB > zofka@cernvm (Bitnet) > milan@BIX (Bix) > > Milan Zofka 26, rte d'Annecy CH-1256 TROINEX GENEVA SWITZERLAND > ========================================================================= Rick Spanbauer SUNY/Stony Brook (& Ameristar)
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (04/18/88)
:The author said that he can write the code but the amiga has no capability :to send packets at high speed thru serial port... : :If you need an cheap, low-cost, auto-config, zorro,... board for your :software, I CAN DO IT. I have currently two quiet terminated development :and it's very easy to implement fast serial lines (specialized chips :exists and doesn't cost a lot). 25 chips on a card, including auto-conf :and buffering and for 200$ we can have an AppleTalk... And for A500 :thru A99999999 ;-). It's actually easier than that. All you really need to do is get some open collector drivers (IEEE-488 style) and connect them to the serial port. Add a couple of resistors and Poof, ethernet style network. With a custom serial driver you could go quite fast. All that's left is to write a protocol for it. Unfortunetly, this is no mean feat. -Matt
zofka@cernvax.UUCP (zofka) (04/19/88)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: AppleTalk, Networking, Amigas and Offices Summary: Expires: References: <648@cernvax.UUCP> <1151@sbcs.sunysb.edu> Sender: Reply-To: zofka@cernvax.UUCP () Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: CERN European Laboratory for Particle Physics, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland Keywords: AppleTalk, Network >> If you need an cheap, low-cost, auto-config, zorro,... board for your >> software, I CAN DO IT. I have currently two quiet terminated development >> and it's very easy to implement fast serial lines (specialized chips >> exists and doesn't cost a lot). 25 chips on a card, including auto-conf >> and buffering and for 200$ we can have an AppleTalk... And for A500 >> thru A99999999 ;-). >> > > I've looked at it, and I can tell you that you will not be > able to build it, sell it, and make money at a $200 price point. > In the first place, you will not be able to play the same > games as Apple did in their implementation, ie basically have > the processor poll the serial port. The data comes in at > about 230.4 Khz/8, and you can't catch it byte by byte with the > processor and still multitask. You will need DMA or at least > a small processor + buffer ram on the card. All of this drives > the cost up. I'm not so sure... A processor costs 2-3 $ 32k memory 2$ one pal for 1.5 $ and logic for 10 $. The printed circuit is the most expensive and the connectors (50 $)... all for 100$. Why every time people talk about profit. Few $$$ for few hours of work is enough for people how love their work... > > The other problem with Appletalk, at least if you listen to people > who have them running is that it doesn't scale, it doesn't give > you the bandwidth you need, etc. We ought to learn this lesson > from the Mac people before we go out and build a network interface > that is already obsolete. Obsolete but they sell it every day.. I.B.M is also obsolete. New machines are also obsolete but they sell thousand and thousand of pc because there is a lot of software, lowcost networks a.s.o. (& nice screens (personnal opinion!!)) >> I have no time to develop software like networks but a small card is only >> few weeks to develop (I can write the driver too if you need). >> > > If you have no time to develop, then you clearly have no time to > do the support work. Ameristar spends quite a bit of telephone > time doing support, eg helping people debug their networks they > already have installed before the Amiga ever arrived! > >> Time to create the NDG no ? (Network Development Group)... We are talking about a development group how don't look for real profit and $$ but that can help commodore and Amiga to be at the top. Imagine, we have a multi-standards-compatibility system... The ameristar Ethernet card is a great example but I have a friend with a little store and 2 amigas for bills and stock control... Ethernet and 2000$ investment ??? Impossible 500$ yes... zofka@cernvax.UUCB zofka@cernvm (Bitnet) milan@BIX (Bix) Milan Zofka 26, rte d'Annecy CH-1256 TROINEX GENEVA SWITZERLAND ========================================================================= > > Rick Spanbauer > SUNY/Stony Brook > (& Ameristar) Ohhh, one more thing, People talk a lot about products for the amiga and networking. The only two things I have seen up today are your ethernet product (nice) and DNET (nice too but I don't have it!). The others ??? waporware ? I have a CLtd Disk and I wrote last year two times to CLtd to have informations about SCSI network and opticaldisk.device (SCSI too)... Nothing... No reply, no answer... nothing...
zofka@cernvax.UUCP (zofka) (04/19/88)
In article <8804180638.AA23679@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: >:The author said that he can write the code but the amiga has no capability >:to send packets at high speed thru serial port... >: >:If you need an cheap, low-cost, auto-config, zorro,... board for your >:software, I CAN DO IT. I have currently two quiet terminated development > It's actually easier than that. All you really need to do >is get some open collector drivers (IEEE-488 style) and connect them to > -Matt Not so easy at all, look at max speed of the amiga (192 kbits) and this with 100% cpu time... 230kbits for appletalk and with alittle card, something like 10% cpu (or less) Few more $$ but more efficient. Milan (zofka)
root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (SBCS Systems Staff) (04/20/88)
In article <651@cernvax.UUCP>, zofka@cernvax.UUCP (zofka) writes: > Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga > Subject: Re: AppleTalk, Networking, Amigas and Offices > Organization: CERN European Laboratory for Particle Physics, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland > Keywords: AppleTalk, Network > > I'm not so sure... A processor costs 2-3 $ 32k memory 2$ one pal > for 1.5 $ and logic for 10 $. The printed circuit is the most expensive > and the connectors (50 $)... all for 100$. Why every time people talk > about profit. Few $$$ for few hours of work is enough for people how > love their work... Milan, I love my work. Couldn't really think of anything better to do. Need to make bucks (== profit) to pay rent, buy food for my wife and child, pay car insurance, etc. I'm sure the people who provide the services that I've mentioned probably love their work too, but they're in the same boat as I am about paying for their necessities. Right down to the guys who grows the food, dig iron ore, etc. The basic theme here is $$$ = goods/services. As I've pointed out to you in private mail, parts cost are a factor in determining price, but are NOT the only force. Big companies charge at least 3X-5X over manufacture cost in order to remain profitable. But I'll promise you this: if everyone else works for free, and doesn't charge for services, then I will too. I suspect that to arrive at this "ideal" I'll have to move east to a colder climate and learn to like vodka and copies of 8080's :-). > > We are talking about a development group how don't look for real > profit and $$ but that can help commodore and Amiga to be at the top. > Imagine, we have a multi-standards-compatibility system... The ameristar > Ethernet card is a great example but I have a friend with a little > store and 2 amigas for bills and stock control... Ethernet and > 2000$ investment ??? Impossible 500$ yes... > Gee, Commodore US is operating in the "black", financially speaking. Is this not true of Commodore/France? CA seems really very capable indeed of helping themselves. Naturally anyone selling Amiga based products would want CA to succeed. The way we support their success is by trying to bring to market the sorts of products users would want to buy. Not by contributing free labour. A development group is an OK idea for research sorts of things or where ideas need proving (eg there are quite a few superb groups in the Amateur Radio area: ka9q ip/tcp folks, TAPR, AMRAD, etc). To answer the telephone and provide support for your customers pretty well requires that you charge enough $$$ to pay someone to spend 40 hrs a week waiting for calls. > zofka@cernvax.UUCB > zofka@cernvm (Bitnet) > milan@BIX (Bix) > > Milan Zofka 26, rte d'Annecy CH-1256 TROINEX GENEVA SWITZERLAND > ========================================================================= > [stuff about Ameristar & Dillon DNET deleted] > The others ??? waporware ? I have a CLtd Disk and I wrote last year > two times to CLtd to have informations about SCSI network and > opticaldisk.device (SCSI too)... Nothing... No reply, no answer... > nothing... I believe a few folks at Westchester have the CLtd disk sharing stuff running on Amigas. I know that a few of our customers have it also. Perhaps the literature that CLtd shipped to you fell down the same blackhole that our literature did? Rick Spanbauer (Ameristar) (516) 698-0834
sdean1@uvicctr.UUCP (Steven A. Dean) (04/24/88)
In article <655@cernvax.UUCP> zofka@cernvax.UUCP () writes: [stuff deleted...] >> It's actually easier than that. All you really need to do >>is get some open collector drivers (IEEE-488 style) and connect them to >> -Matt > Not so easy at all, look at max speed of the amiga (192 kbits) and > this with 100% cpu time... 230kbits for appletalk and with alittle > card, something like 10% cpu (or less) Few more $$ but more efficient. > Milan (zofka) Well, let's see here... 192 KBits you say? Hmm... that's not very much now... if I do my math here I get some interesting figures... Processor speed : 7.16 MHz. Mem Wait States : 0 (for a workbench screen) Time for a move : 12 cycles (move.b (a0),(a1)+) Time for a dbra : 10 cycles (dbra d7,loop) Total CPU time : 22 cycles per byte. 7,160,000 / 22 = 325,413 BYTES per second. Well, we all know that those speeds are pretty hairy and would require the entire system to go dead... but I can't see it being too difficult to get about 100K per second... A friend of mine got (with some UGLY code) about 500KBaud. The serial port is pretty quick... BTW, does anyone know how fast data can be pushed through the parallel port with any reasonable amount of efficiency? I've never played with it... It might be an idea to see how well it can grab data. Steve -- Steven A. Dean sdean1@uvunix.BITNET sdean1@uvunix.UVic.CDN ...uw-beaver!uvicctr!sdean1 ...ubc-vision!uvicctr!sdean1
snyderw@pawl17.pawl.rpi.edu (Wilson P. Snyder II) (04/25/88)
In article <392@uvicctr.UUCP> sdean1@uvicctr.UUCP (Steven A. Dean) writes: >100K per second... A friend of mine got (with some UGLY code) about 500KBaud. >The serial port is pretty quick... > Now, is there ANY way to use the BLITTER to get/put data from one address into/outof memory. If the system could DMA the data you could have a very fast parallel port (assuming that you got the data in the short period before the next byte was written.) I assume that one problem would be the need for chip memory. Comments? ______________________________________________________________________ Wilson P. Snyder II snyderw@pawl.rpi.EDU 318 Crockett Hall, RPI 518-276-2764 Troy, NY 12180-3590 802-658-3799 in summer ______________________________________________________________________
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (04/26/88)
>Now, is there ANY way to use the BLITTER to get/put data from one address >into/outof memory. If the system could DMA the data you could have a very >fast parallel port (assuming that you got the data in the short period >before the next byte was written.) I assume that one problem would be the >need for chip memory. Comments? The question is, how to create a local area net without buying (or designing) a real-life DMA driven auto-configuring board. The problem is really how to deal with multitasking. One could write a fully handshaking scheme driven by a task over the parallel port that would have an aggregate throughput on the order of, say, 60 to 100 KBytes/sec. Over the serial port, a fully handshaked scheme could run at about 26KBytes/sec. Using an audio channel, one could easily output a 16 symbol set at 28KBaud = 14KBytes/sec (assuming the filter is turned off), though getting data back would pose a problem. Now, one must deal with multiple machines on the network. One cannot simply connect multiple TTL/CMOS outputs together. Usually something like an open collector buffer is used (wire-and). The serial line has the fewest number of wires ... two, thus two o.c. drivers. The network itself would be a single data wire and a single ground reference. Alternately one might want to capacitively couple the network instead of using O.C. drivers.... now if only I had some time... -Matt
mph@rover.UUCP (Mark Huth) (04/30/88)
In article <392@uvicctr.UUCP> sdean1@uvicctr.UUCP (Steven A. Dean) writes: >BTW, does anyone know how fast data can be pushed through the parallel port I've designed a hard disk controller that worked through the parallel port and measured bursts of approx. 800k bytes per second - this was using a 68010 with the transfer loop cached on the processor. The transfer is limited by the strobes on the PIA. Mark Huth