R38@PSUVM.BITNET (aka Marc Rifkin) (04/21/88)
I am looking to do some serious 3d animations- not simple looping demos,
but something with a plot. I would like to have it ray traced with shadows
(don't we all) but with memory limitations, I could settle for simple
solid face coloring. However, I am not sure which system is the most
suitable- I need a system with alot of control over objects and camera.
I have had experience with SCULPT-3d and found it good for frames, but
would need ANIMATE-3d for movement. I have also heard of: PHOTON VIDEO (which
I understand is cell animation, not 3d?), SILVER, VIDEOSCAPE 3d, ANIMATOR
APPRENTICE, et al.
Can someone with the knowledge help me make the decision?
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]Please excuse any temporal discrepencies with what I say...
]...My temporal perception has discrepencies.
____ _ __ __ __ \Marc Rifkin \
/ / /| /_ / / \ of \ / \R38@PSUVM.EDU \
/--- /-| /__ /_/ / _\ \\ // \132 Beaver Hall\
/ \ \\// E R T E C H , Inc.\Univ. Park, Pa.\
"No Matter Where You go, \/ --=======-- \16802 \
There You Are." -BB & MM \814-862-6892 \ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (04/25/88)
In article <39845R38@PSUVM> R38@PSUVM.BITNET (aka Marc Rifkin) writes: >I am looking to do some serious 3d animations- not simple looping demos, >but something with a plot. [ ... ] >However, I am not sure which system is the most >suitable- I need a system with alot of control over objects and camera. [ ... ] >Can someone with the knowledge help me make the decision? Well, I'm a supporter of VideoScape 3D. I like it because it permits me to precisely specify what's going to happen on the screen. However, the major drawback to VS3D is its user interface, or lack thereof. Modeller 3D, which will be ready Real Soon Now, will help to address this problem. However, currently, you only have a textual interface available to you. In order to utilize it to its fullest, you really need to be blessed with the ability to visualize 3D objects and space, and be able to mentally translate it into numbers. I'm lucky; I can do this to a limited degree. However, most people can't. So for them, Sculpt/Animate-3D is a better choice. It is superior in that its interface is completely visual. You create and move objects around by drawing their paths on the screen. However, Sculpt/Animate's drawback is lack of precision. You drag objects and paths around until they "look okay". If you have a highly detailed model, or wish to specify an exact motion path (to simulate a Newtonian physics model), this may be unacceptable. Sculpt does provide a "script" mode for precise data entry, but I am unaware of how effective it is. Silver is also interesting. *PERSONALLY*, I find its user interface to be difficult to understand and use. However, regular users of the program don't feel this way. Also, the program is *stuffed* with options, so you can create images that aren't possible with Sculpt. The most recent release, Turbo Silver, is very interesting, in that it is the first commercial ray-tracing/animation package with refraction, with variable index of refraction. Silver also features "texture mapping", the ability to map an image (any IFF file) to the surface of an object. Turbo Silver also appears to be faster than Sculpt for equivalent scenes. One of Silver's drawbacks is that it only allows for a single light source (Sculpt and the new VideoScape 2.0 allow for multiple light sources). I have not played with or seen much of Animator: Apprentice or Forms In Flight. Also, you should be aware of John Foust's _InterChange_ program. This little goodie lets you convert objects from any supported format to any other supported format. The currently supported formats that I know of are VideoScape 3DG1 (text) format, Sculpt-3D, and Forms In Flight. I have heard that a Turbo Silver module is available. With this tool, you can create objects and environments with your favorite object editor, then port them over to your favorite renderer, and do what you will. I would play with as many packages as you could lay your hands on, and pick the one you like best. If you're really serious, you'll buy a copy of each of them. They are tools, and you should select the best one for the individual task before you. A final note: I think you'll discover that creating a "feature length" animation with a plot and all is not as simple as you may think. Be prepared to invest time, and don't let yourself get discouraged. I'm looking forward to seeing your stuff. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!pacbell -\ \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
bph@ut-emx.UUCP (Butler Hine) (04/26/88)
[look, ma, I'm flyin']
I'm directing this at Leo, or anyone else that has had experience with
more than one animation program. Are all of them limited in the length
of the sequence (in seconds) to the amount of memory you have? I know
this is true for Sculpt-3D, but I don't know about any of the others.
If this is true for all of them, does anyone have any recommendations
for a way of recording single frames at a time, to be played back at
full speed later on? Single frame capable VCR's with flying erase heads
are one way to do it, but a better way might be to use the new WORM drives
coming out now. Will these things work off of the SCSI controllers out
now (ie. Supra's, etc). I assume that they would work off of the IBM
bus of the A2000. If frames were recorded onto a WORM drive, could they
then be played back at full speed? This is a disk transfer rate problem,
since I would imagine that the frames would need to be DMA'd directly
into CHIP memory to be displayed that fast.
--
Butler Hine
Gabba, Dept. of Astronomy, University of Texas at Austin
Gabba, Austin, Tx 78712 (512) 471-4419
Hey! {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bph
(internet) bph@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU
(bitnet) bph%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDUthomson@utah-cs.UUCP (Richard A Thomson) (04/26/88)
In article <1853@ut-emx.UUCP> bph@emx.UUCP (hine butler) writes: >... to use the new WORM drives coming out now. Will these things work off >of the SCSI controllers out now (ie. Supra's, etc). I read in the most recent issue of INFO magazine (a MUST for all Amiga enthus- iasts) that C Ltd (I think) has announced a WORM drive to work with their SCSI controller; they also announced a 40 MB streaming tape backup as well as a Bernoulli box. >Butler Hine Dept. of Astronomy, University of Texas at Austin Austin, Tx 78712 >(512) 471-4419 {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bph -- Rich -- Richard Thomson 3190 MEB, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112 thomson@cs.utah.edu (801) 584-4555: Talk to a machine, they're lonely. Gaia: Its not just a hypothesis, its an epistemology.
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (04/27/88)
In article <1853@ut-emx.UUCP> bph@emx.UUCP (hine butler) writes: >Are all of them limited in the length >of the sequence (in seconds) to the amount of memory you have? I know >this is true for Sculpt-3D, but I don't know about any of the others. Well, as far as the scope of ANIM files goes, this is the case. However, the software generating the images is capable of far longer sequences than ANIM files will ordinarily permit. >If this is true for all of them, does anyone have any recommendations >for a way of recording single frames at a time, to be played back at >full speed later on? Single frame capable VCR's with flying erase heads >are one way to do it, but a better way might be to use the new WORM drives >coming out now. [ ... ] Oh my GOD! An actual use for WORM drives! I never thought of this. And it'd probably be cheaper than frame accurate editing decks to boot! I'm gonna look into this... >If frames were recorded onto a WORM drive, could they >then be played back at full speed? [ ... ] Compact Video Interactive (is the the right buzzword?) is capable of standard video rates (30 fps). However, I think they pull some strange tricks to compress the information on the disk. I don't know anything about it really, except that a friend of mine has seen it working. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!pacbell -\ \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (04/27/88)
In article <1853@ut-emx.UUCP> bph@emx.UUCP (hine butler) writes: >[look, ma, I'm flyin'] > >I'm directing this at Leo, or anyone else that has had experience with >more than one animation program. Are all of them limited in the length >of the sequence (in seconds) to the amount of memory you have? Well I haven't received VideoScape 2.0 yet so I can't say whether it is or not, but version 1 is limitied to available memory for play back. Note you can create an Anim file that is as big as your disk, it is the playback that needs the ram. My experience (quite limited so far) is that a 3 meg Amiga is looking at maybe 20 seconds of animation tops. Fortunately you can cut your movie into several scenes. These you can splice together on any VCR with a flying erase head (most camcorders are equipped with such a head). These are *lots* cheaper than the single frame VCR's or writeable laser disks that go for 15,000 or so. Another neat trick if you have a Genlock is 'matteing'. Basically you animate the scene, then animate objects in that scene, then record the scene, rerecord the scene thru the genlock while playing the objects. It helps get around some of the limitations on the number of objects. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
shf@well.UUCP (Stuart H. Ferguson) (04/27/88)
Butler Hine asks about recording single frame animations on video device such as WORM drive. I have some direct experience here. I work at an astrophysics lab doing image processing and data analysis. We record our computer enhanced astro images and animated simulation results on a Panasonic TQ-2023F Optical DIsk Recorder. It takes an NTSC input signal and records a single video frame at a time onto a 9" videodisc under RS-232 control. It also has a burst mode which we've never used. Once recorded, the animations can be played back at full speed or even very fast with little or no static. As with most laserdiscs, sigle steping is much better than tape. It's been very servicable, although it does appear somewhat sensitive to dust, and costs about $15K these days I think. The read-only players cost about $2K. The discs themselves are under $100, I think, and store 24,000 frames, or 13 minutes of full speed video. The device is much easier to use than video equipment, and if the poeple using it are non-technical this is a big win. I have used it in conjunction with an Amiga running VideoScape 2.0 and it works great (provided the video from the Amiga is cleaned up a bit with a genlock). VideoScape provides a built-in facility to send commands out the serial port and it was able to control the recorder just fine, automatically snapping a frame after rendering. -- Stuart Ferguson (shf@well.UUCP) Action by HAVOC (shf@Solar.Stanford.EDU)
baer@percival.UUCP (Ken Baer) (04/28/88)
>In article <39845R38@PSUVM> R38@PSUVM.BITNET (aka Marc Rifkin) writes: >>I am looking to do some serious 3d animations- not simple looping demos, >>but something with a plot. [ ... ] >>However, I am not sure which system is the most >>suitable- I need a system with alot of control over objects and camera. [ ... ] >>Can someone with the knowledge help me make the decision? I suggest you take a good look at some of the products from Hash Enterprises, and this isn't just because I work there :-). ALL of our products are for animation. And the overriding concern is to help the animator tell his (or her) story. We have a number of products that are already released and many more on the way. To give you a better idea, here's a quick summary of what's available: Animation:Apprentice - The flagship product. Apprentice is a Full 3-D character animation package, with shading and texture mapping. The entire package is designed around the concept of designing a character and making actions for that character, putting a number of characters on a stage, and moving your camera around while your characters are doing their thing on stage. Version 3.0 has just been released, and it adds many features not mentioned in recently published reviews. There is a LOT to this program, which I can't touch on her Animation:Stand - Take any IFF picture, and zoom in and pan across it. Or stretch, squeeze, and distort it, and save it all in an animation. If you need a panning background, this is the one. Animation:Effects - Take an IFF brush and spin and flip it, with specular reflection, and shading. This one's for Video types, great for titling. Animation:Flipper - take a bunch of IFF pictures and squeeze them down into an anim file. Animation:Multiplane - This one is very close to release (all of the above are already out). This one is VERY exciting. This program acts as a Digital Compositer. Take an animation, and superimpose another one on top. Or fade an animated object into another animation. Create transluscent effects. strober an object, or create the illustion of motion blur. This has so many features, I can't begin to touch on them, and there are many I still don't even know about. Animation:Editor - This is the one I'm working on. It will allow you to convert animation files from one format to another. And it will allow you to take animations and pieces of animations in a variety of formats and combine them into one animation. With this product, you can use products from a number of different companies to make one animation. All of the major 3D animation packages have their strengths. Videoscape is good for polygonal objects, and moving star fields. Sculpt/Animate3D is very good at spectacular ray-traced animations. Animation:Apprentice is the best for "organic", non-polygonalized character and object animations. John Foust will have an Apprentice module for his Interchange package in the very new future. This, in combination with Animation:Editor, will allow you to use virtually ALL animation packages for the Amiga in conjunction to produce the best possible animations. If you are serious about animation on the Amiga, don't settle for just one package to do everything. Expect to get a number of packages for specific elements of you animation (this is analogous to buying a number of paint programs and image processors to make IFF stills). If you have any questions about Hash products, or just want to chat with our friendly Customer Support guy, our number is (206) 693-7443. ps - Hey Leo, we'd really like to see you play with Apprentice and some of our other stuff. I hope you'll at least consider it. Consider this a challenge :-). Anyway, I may be modifying some of your animations when I'm Beta-testing Multiplane. Keep the good stuff coming. -- -Ken Baer. // Hash Enterprises: When the Going gets Weird, the Weird go Professional \X/ USENET - ...tektronix!reed!percival!baer OR baer@percival.UUCP, BIX - kbaer, "while (AINTGOTNOSATISFACTION) { do stuff }" - RJ Mical
baer@percival.UUCP (Ken Baer) (04/28/88)
In article <5443@utah-cs.UUCP> thomson@cs.utah.edu.UUCP (Richard A Thomson) writes: >In article <1853@ut-emx.UUCP> bph@emx.UUCP (hine butler) writes: >>... to use the new WORM drives coming out now. Will these things work off >>of the SCSI controllers out now (ie. Supra's, etc). > >I read in the most recent issue of INFO magazine (a MUST for all Amiga enthus- >iasts) that C Ltd (I think) has announced a WORM drive to work with their >SCSI controller Supra has announced a 10 MB floppy drive. We (Hash Enterprises) are planning to take a good look at this for animation storage. Obviously, the speed wouldn't be good enough to playback straight off the floppy, but we could break the 880K limit. It's real easy to fill up a harddisk with animations. However, I wouldn't mind having a decent WORM drive :-). -- -Ken Baer. // Hash Enterprises: When the Going gets Weird, the Weird go Professional \X/ USENET - ...tektronix!reed!percival!baer OR baer@percival.UUCP, BIX - kbaer, "while (AINTGOTNOSATISFACTION) { do stuff }" - RJ Mical
baer@percival.UUCP (Ken Baer) (04/29/88)
In article <1853@ut-emx.UUCP> bph@emx.UUCP (hine butler) writes: >[look, ma, I'm flyin'] > >If this is true for all of them, does anyone have any recommendations >for a way of recording single frames at a time, to be played back at >full speed later on? Single frame capable VCR's with flying erase heads >are one way to do it, but a better way might be to use the new WORM drives >coming out now. There's a product coming out that will act as a remote controler for your VCR (actually, I thin it's intended for the new Sony 8mm deck that has 2 frame record). It would interact with a special version of the rendering software, and whenever a frame is rendered, it will record that frame to the VCR. I can't recall the name of the company. But, It's a good alternative for someone interested in LONG animations. Though, I'd hate to see what'd happen if the tape jammed :-). -- -Ken Baer. // Hash Enterprises: When the Going gets Weird, the Weird go Professional \X/ USENET - ...tektronix!reed!percival!baer OR baer@percival.UUCP, BIX - kbaer, "while (AINTGOTNOSATISFACTION) { do stuff }" - RJ Mical
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (05/05/88)
In article <1226@percival.UUCP> baer@percival.UUCP (Ken Baer) writes: >ps - Hey Leo, we'd really like to see you play with Apprentice and some >of our other stuff. I hope you'll at least consider it. Consider this >a challenge :-). To be perfectly truthful, the first animation I ever saw done with Apprentice was that Smurf. This turned me off real hard right away (I *HATE* Smurfs). Beyond that, I have no idea what the program can do. If I see it in a well-stocked store sometime, I'll play with it. It will be interesting to see what kinds of motion facilities you have. >Anyway, I may be modifying some of your animations when I'm >Beta-testing Multiplane. [ ... ] > Why do I get the feeling something weird is about to happen? _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!pacbell -\ \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor