thomson@utah-cs.UUCP (Rich Thomson) (06/16/88)
In article <56647@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >[ discussion of bare-bones bridgeboard to take advantage of IBM PC hardware ] >Advantages are... > e) It allows programmers like those on this net, to get their > hands on specialized hardware like IEEE-488 bus adapters > without having to invest in building the hardware. ASDG has just announced their new board, the Twin-X, that allows you to use any two existing iSBX modules on a 2000 style slot. This means that you can use A/D and D/A converters, digital I/O, servo controllers, stepper motor controllers, HPIB (IEEE-488) controllers, etc., etc. This sounds like one of the things you seem to want, Chuck. It already exists. -- Rich -- Rich Thomson, Oasis Technologies, 3190 MEB, U of U, Salt Lake City, Utah 84112 (801) 355-5146 thomson@cs.utah.edu {bellcore,ut-sally}!utah-cs!thomson Alocohol: the drug of availability
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (06/17/88)
In article <56647@sun.uucp> I wrote: >>[ discussion of bare-bones bridgeboard to take advantage of IBM PC hardware ] In article <5559@utah-cs.UUCP> (Rich Thomson) writes: >ASDG has just announced their new board, the Twin-X, that allows you to use >any two existing iSBX modules on a 2000 style slot. This means that you can >use A/D and D/A converters, digital I/O, servo controllers, stepper motor >controllers, HPIB (IEEE-488) controllers, etc., etc. Don't misunderstand, I think that the ASDG product is *very* good and was an excellent idea on the part of those folks. However, iSBX is not as popular as the PC bus is, nor do the prices compare very well. I used to work for Intel and designed to the iSBX bus and found it a nice little bus and will probably get one of ASDG's boards. But the people in industry who design to it expect you are running a $30,000 MultiBus I/II system and don't mind paying $500 for a module. Whereas the people designing to the PC bus realize you are a cheapskate (or you would have picked a real bus :-)) and they get some benefit from the number of installed units and price their boards in the $100 - $300 range. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (06/17/88)
In article <56818@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: )In article <56647@sun.uucp> I wrote: )>>[ discussion of bare-bones bridgeboard to take advantage of IBM PC hardware ] ) )In article <5559@utah-cs.UUCP> (Rich Thomson) writes: )>ASDG has just announced their new board, the Twin-X, that allows you to use )>any two existing iSBX modules on a 2000 style slot. This means that you can )>use A/D and D/A converters, digital I/O, servo controllers, stepper motor )>controllers, HPIB (IEEE-488) controllers, etc., etc. ) )Don't misunderstand, I think that the ASDG product is *very* good and was )an excellent idea on the part of those folks. However, iSBX is not as popular )as the PC bus is, nor do the prices compare very well. )--Chuck McManis And don't forget: as I read the purpose of Chas's original posting was not so much "I want IEEE-488" but was "I see a market opportunity do make some $$$." And his comment above would imply that he still sees the window open. Something I wonder is how many IBM bus peripherals have 8086 code in ROMs and won't work without it. I think in these cases, the manufacturer would have to be involved to provide (new code for) a register interface and not just a "bios extension." The question I have is: "What IBM peripherals would be usable in the 'dumb bus' without participation by their manufacturers." Memory, maybe an EGA card (although the BIOS hides a lot of vudu, I think). What about hard disks? What about Targa boards? How about those DSP boards? gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme. jimm -- Jim Mackraz, I and I Computing amiga!jimm BIX:jmackraz Opinions are my own. Comments regarding the Amiga operating system, and all others, are not to be taken as Commodore official policy.
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (06/17/88)
In article <2434@amiga.UUCP| jimm@cloyd.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) writes: |Something I wonder is how many IBM bus peripherals have 8086 code |in ROMs and won't work without it. I think in these cases, the |manufacturer would have to be involved to provide (new code for) |a register interface and not just a "bios extension." | |The question I have is: "What IBM peripherals would be usable |in the 'dumb bus' without participation by their manufacturers." | |Memory, maybe an EGA card (although the BIOS hides a lot of vudu, I think). |What about hard disks? What about Targa boards? How about those DSP boards? |gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme. The EGA, ATT Targa and 99% of the third party graphics boards heve BIOS ROMS in them that must be executed at boot up (mostly for initialization and overrride of standard mono and CGA modes). All hard disk controllers have BIOS ROMs in them (for autoboot). The few peripherals that do NOT have BIOS ROMS are things like memory boards, and parallel and serial ports. I believe that some of the boards that do HAVE BIOS ROMs in them could still be used if this "dumb-bridge-board" was not completely dumb, but was instead able to find and initialize peripherals as a real PC-BIOS-board would. I have no idea how difficult this would be. Any ideas? -- Marco Papa 'Doc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= uucp:...!pollux!papa BIX:papa ARPAnet:pollux!papa@oberon.usc.edu "There's Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Diga!" -- Leo Schwab [quoting Rick Unland] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
eric@hector.UUCP (Eric Lavitsky) (06/18/88)
In article <56818@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >In article <5559@utah-cs.UUCP> (Rich Thomson) writes: >>ASDG has just announced their new board, the Twin-X, that allows you to use > >Don't misunderstand, I think that the ASDG product is *very* good and was >an excellent idea on the part of those folks. However, iSBX is not as popular >as the PC bus is, nor do the prices compare very well. I used to work for >Intel and designed to the iSBX bus and found it a nice little bus and will >probably get one of ASDG's boards. But the people in industry who design to >it expect you are running a $30,000 MultiBus I/II system and don't mind >paying $500 for a module. Whereas the people designing to the PC bus realize >you are a cheapskate (or you would have picked a real bus :-)) and they get >some benefit from the number of installed units and price their boards in >the $100 - $300 range. > >--Chuck McManis I have some good news for you Chuck - you won't have to pay $500 for the IEEE-488 iSBX module *we* designed... :-) And thanks for the nice comments! Cheers (and see you at Usenix?), Eric #plug P.S. Any developer's interested in applications for thw Twin-X (applications requiring IEE-488, multiple serial ports, D/A A/D, stepper motor control etc. etc. ad infinitum), please contact ASDG at 608-273-6585. #endplug ARPA: eric@topaz.rutgers.edu or eric@ulysses.att.com UUCP: {wherever!}ulysses!eric or {wherever!}rutgers!topaz!eric SNAIL: 34 Maplehurst Ln, Piscataway, NJ 08854 "To err is human; To really f*ck up requires the root password."
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (06/18/88)
In article <9895@oberon.USC.EDU> papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: >The EGA, ATT Targa and 99% of the third party graphics boards heve BIOS ROMS >in them that must be executed at boot up (mostly for initialization and >overrride of standard mono and CGA modes). All hard disk controllers have BIOS >ROMs in them (for autoboot). The few peripherals that do NOT have BIOS ROMS >are things like memory boards, and parallel and serial ports. >-- Marco Papa 'Doc A quick poll at the local swap meet (over 50 types of boards surveyed :-)) has shown that Disk Interfaces, and Video Interfaces, have code on board as 'mini' BIOS'. Both types seem to have an init entry point, and then a couple of custom entry points depending on the device (Read/Write sector for the Hard disks, Read/Write pixel for the video boards). Now we could (if we really wanted to) us a special version of the Transformer to execute the initialization code of these boards, other stuff we would have to do on our own. Note that since most (if not all) of these boards are actually controlled by the PC they are in, all of their I/O ports are acceptable. One problem I saw was that a couple of Graphics and DSP boards that had an on board processor wanted to do their own memory accesses. To memory that was on their board. Not a problem other than you would probably want to make that memory an "I/O" resource rather than a memory resource to the Amiga. All of the custom/unusual boards for PC's have no 'bios' equivalent and thus no ROM's on board. These included the IEEE-488 board I saw, a PC-Lab board and a D/A->A/D converter board. Now don't get me wrong, *all* of them would require some new software on the Amiga (like drivers) but if Usenet is any measure (and it probably isn't) there are a lot of spare "programming" cycles out there and not to many spare "hardware" cycles. What I am trying to say is that many people sit at home and write code, whereas a much smaller number design new boards. My point being that, to the hardware manufacturer of the board, it's pure profit because they won't care about the software. They just sell the boards. So given this 'Bus Adapter' (my new name for it), a IBM PC/AT compatible interface card, and a hardware manual for the PC card. One programmer could have the basis for a 'value added' business. (Buys the card dirt cheap from the PC card manufacturer (Serial port adapters are $30 these days) adds some software to make it work with the Amiga (pcserial.device) and maybe a whacked version of VT100, and sells it to Amiga owners that want another serial port for $100. Not great margins but it's definitely a living. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
rstiles@pnet02.cts.com (Rick Stiles) (06/19/88)
>any two existing iSBX modules on a 2000 style slot....
^^^^
Yes, except that iSBX modules cost an arm an a leg. So no mater what you may
want to install the cost will be (cost of twin-X) + (cost of overpriced iSBX
module).
I still think that Chuck's idea about the use of the PC/AT slots is the best
I heard in a long time. PC add on stuff are both powerfull, plentyfull and
inexpensive. It would be nice is ASDG did such a thing.
Rick.
==========================================
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
(Mr. Spock Star Trek The OLD generation.
=============================================================================
UUCP: {ihnp4!scgvaxd!cadovax rutgers!marque}!gryphon!pnet02!rstiles
INET: rstiles@pnet02.cts.comlphillips@lpami.van-bc.UUCP (Larry Phillips) (06/19/88)
In <9895@oberon.USC.EDU>, papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: >In article <2434@amiga.UUCP| jimm@cloyd.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) writes: >|Something I wonder is how many IBM bus peripherals have 8086 code >|in ROMs and won't work without it. >|The question I have is: "What IBM peripherals would be usable >|in the 'dumb bus' without participation by their manufacturers." >I believe that some of the boards that do HAVE BIOS ROMs in them could still >be used if this "dumb-bridge-board" was not completely dumb, but was instead >able to find and initialize peripherals as a real PC-BIOS-board would. >I have no idea how difficult this would be. Any ideas? The Wedge uses standard XT style disk controllers, and uses them quite well without ever having to look at the BIOS contained on them. In fact, you could take the BIOS ROM right out of a controller attached via a Wedge and do whatever you want with it (preferably erasing the filthy Intel code and putting something useful into it). The main thing to note here is that a BIOS of the type that is found on these controllers is simply an 808x program that is executed by the CPU. As such, it is the CPU that "does it's thing", sending commands and data to the controller and receiving data and status back from it. The combination of BIOS and the controller itself can best be looked at as two separate things sitting on the bus. The main problem in getting any given peripheral attached to a 'dumb bridge' and working is that you have to find out what the beast requires in terms of addressing, commands/data to be sent, and what to expect back from it. Some companies making peripherals are perfectly willing to help out with dat, but others are very closed about it and will either want to charge you a hefty fee or will not give you the information at all. I have most of the design done for a '2000 Wedge', but don't know if it will ever see the light of day, in the face of low prices for the 2090 (a far more capable controller than anything you could slap on an XT bus). Chuck's idea is a good one though. A generalized board would create a small market for device drivers, hardware, etc., and at the same time give us something to do with that wasted space where the braindead stuff is normally placed. -larry -- If all the MSDos machines were laid end to end, they still wouldn't be as fun as a single Amiga. +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ {ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision,uunet}!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 | +----------------------------------------------------------------+
doug-merritt@cup.portal.com (06/19/88)
Marco Papa 'Doc writes: >The EGA, ATT Targa and 99% of the third party graphics boards heve BIOS ROMS >in them that must be executed at boot up (mostly for initialization [...] >I believe that some of the boards that do HAVE BIOS ROMs in them could still >be used if this "dumb-bridge-board" was not completely dumb, but was instead Well, I would think that the Transformer (or *some* kind of 8086 simulator) would work just fine for executing this initialization code. Unless it turns out to be highly timing-oriented code, a definite possibility. Doug -- Doug Merritt ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt or ucbvax!eris!doug (doug@eris.berkeley.edu) or ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug
perry@well.UUCP (Perry S. Kivolowitz) (06/19/88)
In article <5559@utah-cs.UUCP>, thomson@utah-cs.UUCP (Rich Thomson) writes: > In article <56647@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: > >[ discussion of bare-bones bridgeboard to take advantage of IBM PC hardware ] > >Advantages are... > > e) It allows programmers like those on this net, to get their > > hands on specialized hardware like IEEE-488 bus adapters > > without having to invest in building the hardware. > > ASDG has just announced their new board, the Twin-X, that allows you to use > any two existing iSBX modules on a 2000 style slot. This means that you can > use A/D and D/A converters, digital I/O, servo controllers, stepper motor > controllers, HPIB (IEEE-488) controllers, etc., etc. > Twin-X is, in fact, ASDG's newest product for the A2000. It is a host for any two IEEE-959 modules (also called iSBX modules (Trademark of Intel Corporation)). The SBX module specification the defines physical and electrical characteristics for 8 and 16 bit modules, both ``single'' and ``dou- ble'' wide. Twin-X supports the SBX standard in all respects. Individual modules are identified to the Amiga by passing a unique id through to an EXEC expansion rom field which can be used for such a purpose. In this way, any SBX module becomes a completely Amiga com- patible expansion card. Each module position autoconfigures seperate- ly in its own expansion space. Though Twin-X implements all conversion to and from the Intel style interface of the SBX module and the Motorola style interface found on the Zorro bus, access to Twin-X is quite fast (at 600 nanoseconds). ASDG recognizes that using Twin-X, an Amiga developer has nearly in- stant access to many specialized hardware devices such as stepper motor controllers, DES encryption modules, bubble memory and many other more esoteric functions. Twin-X throws open nearly every con- ceivable market which until now required some specialized hardware support. As such, we expect our initial user of Twin-X to be the Amiga software developer rather than the consumer. Towards this end, ASDG is gearing up to provide intensive aftermarket support for software developers who will base applications around our product. This includes driver and library development, documentation, qualification of modules manufactured by the thirty or so SBX module makers already in existence, and the design of custom modules to fit specific needs. We have already designed our own dual and quad port serial modules as well as a high speed IEEE-488 (GPIB) module. These modules are avail- able to developers in prototype form with preliminary software such as it is. Other modules will follow as time passes. In essence, we are preparing to build a developer community within the developer community. We will distribute software support develop- ed by this community under terms to be agreed upon with the indivi- dual developer. And, we will support our developers on Compuserve and BIX. I'd be happy to answer any and all questions about Twin-X and its mo- dules here on Usenet if there is interest. As always, EMail to me at the WELL is haphazard. Perry Kivolowitz