cheung@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Wilson Cheung) (08/02/88)
This 1024x800 black and white monitor that Commodore plans to release sounds exciting, especially since it will work with my A1000. However, my concern is the amount of CHIP RAM this is going to hog up. My understanding is that it will need eight 640x400, 4-bit plane screens. Will this hog up all 512K of standard CHIP RAM, so that multi-tasking will be out of the question? Wilson Cheung
dmg@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Geary) (08/02/88)
In article <1779@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> Wilson Cheung writes: > This 1024x800 black and white monitor that Commodore plans to release >sounds exciting, especially since it will work with my A1000. However, >my concern is the amount of CHIP RAM this is going to hog up. My understanding >is that it will need eight 640x400, 4-bit plane screens. Will this hog >up all 512K of standard CHIP RAM, so that multi-tasking will be out of the >question? I don't think that a 1024X800 black and white monitor will use 640X400 bitplanes. For black and white, you'd only need ONE 1024X800 bitplane. In terms of how much memory one 1024X800 bitplane takes up: 1) Each byte contains 8 bits. Therefore, one byte represents 8 bits in the bitplane: 1024 bits / 8 bits/byte = 128 bytes. Therefore, it'd take 128 bytes to represent 1024 pixels (one display line on the monitor. 2) There are 800 lines on the monitor, so: 800 lines * 128 bytes/line = 102,400 bytes Therefore, it'd take just over 100K to display a black and white 1024X800 screen. This is the reason why the monitor is b/w. If we wanted 32 colors on a 1024X800 monitor, we'd need: 102,400 bytes/bitplane * 5 bitplanes = 512,000 Now THAT would use up all your chip ram. "Masquerading as a Man with a Reason, My Charade is the Event of the Season..." Wayward Son, Kansas -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ David Geary, Boeing Aerospace, ~ ~ Seattle - "THE DRIZZLE CAPITAL OF THE WORLD" ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (08/03/88)
In article <1779@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> cheung@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Wilson Cheung) writes:
)
) This 1024x800 black and white monitor that Commodore plans to release
)sounds exciting, especially since it will work with my A1000. However,
)my concern is the amount of CHIP RAM this is going to hog up. My understanding
)is that it will need eight 640x400, 4-bit plane screens. Will this hog
)up all 512K of standard CHIP RAM, so that multi-tasking will be out of the
)question?
) Wilson Cheung
A single 1008x800 screen (USA) takes 100,800 bytes per bitplane. So, before
you open any smart refresh windows (which use off-screen memory when they
are obscured), a 2 bitplane screen takes over 200,000 bytes. Not 512,
we note, but a heck of a lot.
A1000 users will probably choose to operate with a 1 bitplane Workbench
screen, or a normal hi-res workbench screen and a single bitplane application
1008x800 screen. A500 and A2000 users will probably want to upgrade to
1MB of chip ram.
Without expansion memory, an A1000 will probably be pretty tight using
the A2024, but it can be done.
Your misunderstanding might have arisen from discussions about display
memory bandwidth which compare one of the modes to a 4 bitplane hires
screen.
jimm
--
Jim Mackraz, I and I Computing
amiga!jimm BIX:jmackraz
Opinions are my own. Comments regarding the Amiga operating system, and
all others, are not to be taken as Commodore official policy.cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/03/88)
In article <1779@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> (Wilson Cheung) writes: > This 1024x800 black and white monitor that Commodore plans to release > sounds exciting, especially since it will work with my A1000. However, > my concern is the amount of CHIP RAM this is going to hog up. Very perceptive Wilson, It's pretty easy to calculate, 1008 * 800 / 8 = 1008 * 100 = 100,800 bytes per bitplane. On a two bitplane screen thats 201,600 bytes minimum. You can see why SIMPLE_REFRESH windows will be a big win with this monitor. Anyway, yes it will eat up all your Chip ram in a hurry (anyone remember using a 256K Amiga?) and for 500/2000 owners it will behoove them to have Fatter Agnui to address a full meg of chip ram. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) (08/03/88)
In article <1779@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> cheung@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Wilson Cheung) writes: > > This 1024x800 black and white monitor that Commodore plans to release >sounds exciting, especially since it will work with my A1000. However, >my concern is the amount of CHIP RAM this is going to hog up. My understanding >is that it will need eight 640x400, 4-bit plane screens. Will this hog >up all 512K of standard CHIP RAM, so that multi-tasking will be out of the >question? Well, 1024x800x2 is 4 512x400x2, which is 2 512x400x4, which is about 200K. So you can work in 512K chip, but it might get tight in some programs if you multitask or if they need lots of chip mem. You can still run in the lower-resolution modes. -- Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup
cthulhu@athena.mit.edu (Jim Reich) (08/03/88)
In article <1779@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> cheung@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Wilson Cheung) writes: > > This 1024x800 black and white monitor that Commodore plans to release >sounds exciting, especially since it will work with my A1000. However, >my concern is the amount of CHIP RAM this is going to hog up. My understanding >is that it will need eight 640x400, 4-bit plane screens. Will this hog >up all 512K of standard CHIP RAM, so that multi-tasking will be out of the >question? First of all, 8 640x400 4-bit plane screens would take 8x640x400x4/8 = 1 Meg of RAM, so you're not going to be seeing that in chip RAM on current hardware. However, I suspect very strongly that you are mistaken about how it works. Those 8 screens would give you a 1024x8000 pixel screen, not x800!! The resolution would be nice, but I believe the way it works is using ONE 4 or 6-plane screen (giving different resolutions) which will take something on the order of 200K, depending on the amount of overscan they use... So you still might be able to multitask small programs, and you could fit a couple of screens of super hi-res in Chip... leaving fast RAM to store the actual programs. If you're spending $700-1000 on a monitor, you should probably set aside some money for a memory expansion-- Everything non-essential will have to be in fast RAM. 512K just isn't enough to multitask large applications... Just wish those memory prices would come down and Pacific Periphs would get the SubSystem 1000 out the door already!!! -- Jim
joe@dayton.UUCP (Joseph P. Larson) (08/03/88)
In article <62474@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >In article <1779@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> (Wilson Cheung) writes: >> This 1024x800 black and white monitor that Commodore plans to release >> sounds exciting, especially since it will work with my A1000. However, >> my concern is the amount of CHIP RAM this is going to hog up. >It's pretty easy to calculate, 1008 * 800 / 8 = 1008 * 100 = 100,800 bytes >per bitplane. On a two bitplane screen thats 201,600 bytes minimum. Oh, Chuck! Why in the world would anyone want to use a two-bitplane screen when they're using a black&white monitor to display the contents? Seems to me you can only display one color (white) at a time, so a single bitplane sounds like plenty..... -Joe -- UUCP: rutgers!dayton!joe (Feed my Dayton Hudson Department Store Company ATT : (612) 375-3537 picture Joe Larson/MIS 1060 (standard disclaimer...) collection) 700 on the Mall Mpls, Mn. 55402
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/04/88)
In article <5705@dayton.UUCP> joe@dayton.UUCP (Joseph P. Larson) writes: > Oh, Chuck! Why in the world would anyone want to use a two-bitplane screen > when they're using a black&white monitor to display the contents? because the A2024 is actually a "greyscale" monitor rather than a pure "black & white" monitor. You can display > 32 shades of grey with it so 2 bitplanes makes sense. One way to use two bitplanes is to set the two intermediate colors to 33% grey and 66% grey. Then pretend you have a 2016 X 1600 screen and use the other colors for antialiasing. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
melnik@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ofer Melnik) (08/04/88)
In article <2712@amiga.UUCP> jimm@cloyd.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) writes: >A1000 users will probably choose to operate with a 1 bitplane Workbench >screen, or a normal hi-res workbench screen and a single bitplane application >1008x800 screen. A500 and A2000 users will probably want to upgrade to >1MB of chip ram. Is an A501 chip ram? Or will another ram upgrade be neccessary? -Ofer -- Ofer Melnik Rutgers University melnik@topaz.rutgers.edu > > jimm >-- > Jim Mackraz, I and I Computing > amiga!jimm BIX:jmackraz >Opinions are my own. Comments regarding the Amiga operating system, and >all others, are not to be taken as Commodore official policy.
hummel@m.cs.uiuc.edu (08/05/88)
Written 9:31 am Aug 3, 1988 by joe@dayton.UUCP in comp.sys.amiga: > Oh, Chuck! Why in the world would anyone want to use a two-bitplane screen > when they're using a black&white monitor to display the contents? Seems to > me you can only display one color (white) at a time, so a single bitplane > sounds like plenty..... The 2024 is actually a GREY-SCALE monitor. >1 bitplane gives you shades of grey. Using multiple colors (ie, greyscale) to make up an image, you could then have ANTIALIASED FONTS. With software to take advantage of this, the Amiga might turn into the envy of the desktop publishing world! Who was it at the AmiExpo AWG session who suggested a group to work on color fonts and graphics issues? In addition to color fonts for video, I'd say the potential impact of the 2024 in desktop publishing makes this an important area for further work. < Lionel ---------- Lionel Hummel 404 W. High St., #6 hummel@cs.uiuc.edu Urbana, IL 61801 {seismo,pur-ee,convex}!uiucdcs!hummel (H) (217)344-5303 Dept. of Computer Science (W) (217)333-7408 University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign #define QUOTE "The sun ain't yellow. It's chicken. - Bob Dylan" #define DISCLAIMER "I don't speak for the University, and vice versa."
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (08/05/88)
In article <62722@sun.uucp>, cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: > because the A2024 is actually a "greyscale" monitor rather than a pure > "black & white" monitor. You can display > 32 shades of grey with it so > 2 bitplanes makes sense. One way to use two bitplanes is to set the > two intermediate colors to 33% grey and 66% grey. Then pretend you have > a 2016 X 1600 screen and use the other colors for antialiasing. > Is this really true? Sounds great. So can I have a 640x400 display with 16 levels of gray? Sounds pretty sharp if so. Wayne Knapp
eric@hector.UUCP (Eric Lavitsky) (08/10/88)
In article <7200056@m.cs.uiuc.edu> hummel@m.cs.uiuc.edu.UUCP writes: >Written 9:31 am Aug 3, 1988 by joe@dayton.UUCP in comp.sys.amiga: >>deleted... > >The 2024 is actually a GREY-SCALE monitor. >1 bitplane gives you shades of >grey. Using multiple colors (ie, greyscale) to make up an image, you could >then have ANTIALIASED FONTS. With software to take advantage of this, the >Amiga might turn into the envy of the desktop publishing world! ... >Who was it at the AmiExpo AWG session who suggested a group to work on color >fonts and graphics issues? In addition to color fonts for video, I'd say >the potential impact of the 2024 in desktop publishing makes this an >important area for further work. The new color font standard *may* buy you this capability already... Still, there will be an AWG on graphics issues - lots of people are interested in various graphics issues (extended resolution/color etc). >Lionel Hummel 404 W. High St., #6 >hummel@cs.uiuc.edu Urbana, IL 61801 Eric ARPA: eric@topaz.rutgers.edu or eric@ulysses.att.com UUCP: {wherever!}ulysses!eric or {wherever!}rutgers!topaz!eric SNAIL: 34 Maplehurst Ln, Piscataway, NJ 08854 "To err is human; To really f*ck up requires the root password."
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (08/10/88)
eric@hector.UUCP (Eric Lavitsky) writes: >In article <7200056@m.cs.uiuc.edu> hummel@m.cs.uiuc.edu.UUCP writes: >>The 2024 is actually a GREY-SCALE monitor. >1 bitplane gives you shades of >>grey. Using multiple colors (ie, greyscale) to make up an image, you could >>then have ANTIALIASED FONTS. With software to take advantage of this, the >>Amiga might turn into the envy of the desktop publishing world! >... > >The new color font standard *may* buy you this capability already... Uhh, as far as I know, it does. The beauty of anti-aliased fonts has to be seen to be believed. Do this simple experiment: hook up your amiga to your color TV. Now display 80 col text. Can you read the text. Probably, barely. Can you tell whct the font is ? probably not. Could you discern, say, Palatino from Times-Roman-Bold ? Not bloody likely. Now. Hook up a camera and aim it at a page of 80 col text. Notice how you can discern not only every character, but its easy to discern subtle differences in font style such as serif vs. sans-serif, or Palatine from Optima. Why ? It's those extra colours. I once had as an assignment the task of converting a 1K by 1K image into sometihng that could be displayed on a (ughh) PC, which meant 640x480. I compromised and set on 512x512. Reducing the 1Kx1Kx1 image to 512x512x1 looked, as you'd expect, wretched. HOWVER. Showing them a 512x512x2 version of the same thing, with anti aliasing blew their socks off. It convinced them to make the board with 2 bitplanes rather than 1. Naturally also, managament thought it was *thier* idea. To whoever decided to give the 2024 2 bitplanes: pure genius. This has the potential to be VERY significant. -- Who are these ones that would lead us now ? richard@gryphon.CTS.COM {backbone}!gryphon!richard