huver@amgraf.UUCP (Huver) (10/02/88)
In article <4907@cbmvax.UUCP>, davh@cbmvax (Dave Haynie) said: | | What I want to know is, why does everyone think IBM compatibility and more | powerful Amigas are mutually exclusive? No, nobody has said anything about "mutually exclusive" (not until this article); what people have been saying is: "... I prefer ..." | ........ The IBM slots in the Amiga 2000 required | zero, 0, ZIP, NIL, NULL, none, void, etc. engineering effort. They're just | a bunch of connectors with power and ground in the right place. Bridge | cards are designed by people who'd otherwise be designing PC-10s or PC-20s | or whatever, so they don't get in the way of Amiga people doing great Amiga | things. So what's the big deal? You get something that lots of people want | ... or even have a use for, and it doesn't cost anything. The deal is that for those who do not want IBM compatiblity, the slots are wasted space that not even tiny, let alone great, things can be done with. When I buy something for myself, I wouldn't care what OTHER people want or have use for, I'd only care about what I want. It's very personal for everyone. Throwing in something free isn't always good, it has to match circumstances. Say you live in a tropical area and you're looking to buy a house, and the broker says: "Now look, the built-in HEATER system comes at no charge!" Let's see, for a "more powerful Amiga": the next thing to happen is, as it seems, for everyone to plug in the 68020/881/851 combo. Now we have a problem: the Z-2 bus is 16-bit only, so to increase the system performance, a Z-3 with higher bandwidth perhaps is in need, and a new bridge card, and a new SCSI-2 card... And so Commodore prepares for the A3000. But wait, what about the "IBM compatible slots"? Microchannel? "Eh, 16- or 32-bit?" Still use AT-style slots? "But the new machine won't be attractive to PS/2 owners!" What's Commodore to do? What a mess. Do we still say "IBM compatibility" has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with "a more powerful Amiga"? -- "Artificial Insanity is the thing for the 80's!" -huver {uunet!kitrain, plus5}!amgraf!huver
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/03/88)
in article <200@amgraf.UUCP>, huver@amgraf.UUCP (Huver) says: > Keywords: mutual exclusion? > [talk about future machine/fast bus...] > But wait, what about the "IBM compatible slots"? Microchannel? "Eh, 16- or > 32-bit?" Still use AT-style slots? "But the new machine won't be attractive > to PS/2 owners!" What's Commodore to do? Piece of cake! There are three good reasons for those PC-AT slots: [1] Lets you check the "IBM compatible" box on you purchase requisition, required in some companies (of course, none of us work anywhere with such draconic rules, but such places do exist). [2] Gives you a reasonable way to run MS-DOS software if you really need to. You might. I have one program I need that only runs under MS-DOS. Obviously no one who knows the Amiga is going to choose to use MS-DOS any more than physically possible, but the need does arise. [3] The PC-AT bus, and it's XT subset of course, give you access to more hardware devices than any other bus. More than AmigaBus, NuBus, MicroChannel, etc. Not attractive to PS/2 owners? Perhaps, but than again, anyone fool enough to buy a PS/2 in the first place is not what's I'd expect to be luring into buying an Amiga. > What a mess. Do we still say "IBM compatibility" has ABSOLUTELY nothing to > do with "a more powerful Amiga"? 'Sho 'Nuff. -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
malc@tahoe.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock) (10/04/88)
In article <200@amgraf.UUCP> huver@amgraf.UUCP (Huver) writes: > >The deal is that for those who do not want IBM compatiblity, the slots are >wasted space that not even tiny, let alone great, things can be done with. This is a good point. Any word on a "null bridge card", allowing direct use of the AT slots from the Amiga side? >"Artificial Insanity is the thing for the 80's!" > -huver {uunet!kitrain, plus5}!amgraf!huver Malcolm L. Carlock ----------------------------------------------------------------- malc@tahoe.unr.edu.UUCP University of Nevada, Reno
dharvey@wsccs.UUCP (David Harvey) (10/10/88)
In article <4922@cbmvax.UUCP>, daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > > There are three good reasons for those PC-AT slots: > > [1] Lets you check the "IBM compatible" box on you purchase requisition, > required in some companies (of course, none of us work anywhere with > such draconic rules, but such places do exist). > > Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" > {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy > "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!" Since my original posting asking what Amiga owners wanted, I have received at least a half dozen replies. The gist of them was: [1] I don't know anyone who bought the IBM bridgeboard. [2] IBM compatibility is a necessity these days, but neither I nor my friends owns the IBM bridgeboard. [3] Don't care for the board, but give me IBM and Apple II emulation. It doesn't matter how fast it runs in these modes (20%-30% acceptable). [4] I agree with you. What I want is for the next machine to run at twice the clock rate, and offer 640x400 res noninterlaced. [5] Higher resolution please! If possible, push it up around 1200x800 (workstation quality) without increasing the cost too much. [6] Advertise the hell out of it! There are lots of supposedly knowledgeable people who don't even know the machine exists. Although this is not a truly representative sample, the message seems to be coming through loud and clear. Amiga owners really don't like or want IBM PC capability except as something to tell potential purchasers that it has it. What I would REALLY LIKE TO HEAR is a reponse from Commodore as to how many of there bridgeboards they have sold. And that is the bottom line. If they aren't selling them, then it was a bad business decision, period. At a recent meeting of the Amiga Roundtable (our local Amiga users group), one member even heckled a representative for Word Perfect, and that is a Utah company folks! But after working with ProWrite and Excellence I can certainly understand the sentiment. Alt-F* my eye! Let me hasten to add that people who write professionally STILL like this word processor best, but why is a mystery to me. I bought Pro-Write in its first offering and the enhancements that have been added have given me just as much capability that Word Perfect has with almost no hassle, and far fewer commands. My life is complicated enough without adding to the problems. Therefore, I propose the following. Write to Commodore and tell them whether you personally plan to ever purchase the bridgeboard (or AT successor). Or if you want, send a yes/no reply to me and I will post a summary to the net and mail a response to Commodore. Personally, I think they would be best to target the original purchasers of the machine and High Schools as their customers. And from what I have observed, the first purchasers were: (1) Artists, (2) Musicians, and (3) knowledgeable hackers. Making good deals with high schools, even to the point of having a traveling representative to (of Commodore) demonstrate the machines for them would be very useful. If rumor has it correct, this is Commodore already has plans under way for doing just that. dharvey@wsccs
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/14/88)
in article <722@wsccs.UUCP>, dharvey@wsccs.UUCP (David Harvey) says: > Summary: Result of Informal survey (IBM Compatibility?) > What I would REALLY LIKE TO HEAR is a reponse from Commodore as to how many > of there bridgeboards they have sold. And that is the bottom line. Last I heard, in rough numbers, for every two A2000s sold, they are selling more than one 1 BridgeCard. I haven't heard any hard numbers, but I do know that the demand for the thing far outpaced the capability to make them. > At a recent meeting of the Amiga Roundtable (our local Amiga users group), one > member even heckled a representative for Word Perfect, and that is a Utah > company folks! Obviously dealing with a high class group here. > Therefore, I propose the following. Write to Commodore and tell them > whether you personally plan to ever purchase the bridgeboard (or AT > successor). Or if you want, send a yes/no reply to me and I will post > a summary to the net and mail a response to Commodore. It's already been pointed out that the ability to run a BridgeCard in an Amiga doesn't take anything else away from that Amiga. And I don't very often see folks being led at gunpoint into their local Amiga dealers and being forced to buy BridgeCards. But some people ARE buying the BridgeCard. Some may buy the A2000 just cause it's capable of running a BridgeCard. The most often asked question I get (now that 1.3 is out) is, by FAR, "where's the AT Bridge Card". So the availablility of this card is a benefit to some, a detriment to none. So what's your problem? > Personally, I think they would be best to target the original purchasers of > the machine and High Schools as their customers. I think they have a number of markets defined, both of these among them. But once you've already bought an Amiga, while you certainly need support, and add-ons, you don't need to be converted. So one of the tasks of the marketing folks is to convert those who don't yet have Amigas, and in order to convert them, you first have to let 'em know it exists. > dharvey@wsccs -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"