paquette@.ucalgary.ca (Trevor Paquette) (10/12/88)
This may seem to be over kill by posting to so many newsgroups bit I feel
that the material presented is a MUST read for anyone who is about to purchase
something via MAIL ORDER.
This is mainly for ALL those who have or are thinking about purchasing
something from Abel Supply in Sevierville Tenessee. It is also for ANYONE
about to make ANY sort of mail order purchase. I give a small but handy guide
at the end of the posting for all of you to avid the hassles that I have
and am currently going through with Abel Supply.
Please spread this message as far as you can. It will help out alot of
people. If you do not want to read it at least save it for a friend who
might.
For those of you who want to skip it, please hit 'n' now.
Mail Order Blues
or
Abel Supply? Hardly.
and
A Mail Order Users Guide
With the personal computer industry starting to
reachout to more and more people, the demands for sotfware
and hardware for these machines have reached huge propor-
tions. Some poeple have taken it upon themselves to make
money off of this demand. They have started up what is now
called a mail order business. This means exactly what it
sounds like. The company puts out ads that state product
and price and hope that people will buy from them because
they offer a substanial discount over what your local
software/hardware dealer can offer.
What follows is the events that I have had in dealing
with a certain mail order in Tenessee. I am also including
what I call a Mail Order Users Guide. It is a short guide to
help you along in your purchases from these places. On with
the show.
I was the proud owner of an Amiga 1000 computer (I say
was, because I have since sold it and bought an Amiga 2000)
and around the beginning of 1988 was looking around for some
memory expansion. I first went to my local dealer, but what
he wanted for the memory and what I was willing to give him
for it where two VERY different prices. I then started
searching through the ads in various computer magazines. I
found that the prices being offered by mail order companies
were very close to what I was willing to pay and decided to
persue the matter futher.
While reading messages on a local Amiga BBS some one
posted a message about a place called Abel Supply. They
offered products at what seemed to be outragously low
prices. I called the Abel BBS to get the latest prices and I
was very impressed.
What now follows is a copy of the letter I sent to the
Abel Supply General Manager (I will note here that he is a
VERY hard person to get ahold of and seems to want to AVOID
talking to customers with complaints, and he NEVER did
answer my letter) after MANY months of frustration. The
letter explains my problems and the events that followed.
Trevor Paquette
3948 Vancouver Cres NW
Calgary Ab, Canada
T3A 0M1
General Manager
On/about March 18, 1988 I called Abel Supply to enquire
about the purchasing of some computer memory for my Amiga
1000. I told the salesperson what I wanted and he told me
that the items would ship within one week from time my order
arrived.
On March 22 I sent you an order for the following
items:
1 Microbotics Starboard2(1000) 2meg/512k populated
1 Microbotics Starboard2(1000) 2meg/1meg populated
1 Microbotics Starboard2(1000) 2meg/2meg populated
1 Microbotics Multi-Function Module
The amount enclosed with the order was $1465.03(US),
which included $20(US) shipping and handling via two-day
air.
Two weeks went by and the items have not arrived. I
called to enquire about the staus of my order and I was told
it would be shipped out within the week and would arrive a
couple of days after that. Again two weeks went by and my
order had not arrived. I called to find out what the problem
was. The sales person I talked to said he had no record of
my order! He then said that you were undergoing a computer
change and were in the process of moving the orders from the
old system to the new one. I called back about three days
later to confirm that you did have a record of my order and
I decided to wait a while longer.
Another week went by and the order still had not
arrived. I called again and was told that a shipment from
Microbotics was expected
Two more weeks went by and my order had not arrived. I
called again and was told that there was a problem in get-
ting the memory chips for the boards. I then called another
mail-order company by the name of GO-AMIGO and they said
that they were recieving orders for the same items and ship-
ping them out the same day with NO problems. I called Abel
back to find out what the problem was. The person on the
phone said that he was unable to answer my question but that
he would give my name and phone number to the person in
charge of purchasing and he would get back to me.
After waiting five days for him to call me I called
back asking to talk to him and also to enquire about my
order. He was not in and I was told that he would get back
to me and that my order should arrive within two weeks.
Three weeks later ,on/about May 31, I called again
after my order had not arrived yet. I did not uderstand how
you can sell something that you cannot deliver within a
specified amount of time. I then canceled my order. I was
told a refund would take 6-8 weeks. I accepted and started
waiting for a refund.
On June 15 one of the three memory boards arrived AFTER
I had canceled my order. About three days later I recieved a
call stating that another of my memory boards was ready to
be shipped. I declined and again stated that I wanted a
refund, understanding that I would be charged for the 2meg
memory board that had arrived, which I decided to keep. I
said would still like the Multi-Function Module to be
shipped. On June 28 the Multi-Function Module arrived.
Today, August 15, I recieved a call staing that my 2meg
Starboard2 was ready and that it's price had now gone up.
Did I still want it. I told the salesperson that I never
placed such an order and that I was expecting a refund from
10 weeks prior. He said he would talk to the accounting
dept. about the matter.
This situation has gotten totally out of hand. I am now
asking for the following in compensation for my refund.
Initial money sent $1465.03
less 1 2meg Starboard $ 615.00 (Approximate value at the time
the initial order was sent)
less 1 Multi-Function $ 97.00 (Approximate value at the time
Module the initial order was sent)
less Shipping/Handing $ 10.00 (Approximate)
incurred
--------
$ 743.03
plus slowdown of work $ 100.00
from not having the items
mentioned above
plus interest on $1465.03
from March 22 to June 22
at 10% monthly. $ 43.95
plus interest on $743
from June 23 to August 15
at 10% monthly $ 14.85
plus phone charges
over those five months $ 48.00 (Approximate. It is most likely more)
plus loss of money in
Canadian-US curreny
exchange rate $ 20.00
--------
$ 969.83
I expect to recieve a CASHIERS CHEQUE from you for
$969.83(US) before September 6 1988 or my representative
lawyer in Tenessee will commence collection action.
Trevor Paquette
That letter was sent to Abel Supply On August 15th,
1988. Except for one error (the interest should be yearly
and not monthly) the letter is correct in dates and events.
I feel that I am entitled to the compensation listed for all
my troubles. I would also say that I have lost about $200.00
for all my troubles, and I have NOTHING to show for it.
I NEVER got any reply back from Mark Woodham (the Gen-
eral Manager of Abel Supply) nor did I recieve any phone
call. I know that if I was a GM and I recieved a letter like
that I would immediatly followup on it. It should point out
that something is DEFINATLY wrong with the 'new' system that
they have set up.
A couple of days after mailing the letter I took the
liberty to call my local chapter of the Better Business
Bureau here in Calgary. They gave me the number of the
closest BBB office in Sevierville Tenessee (where Abel Sup-
ply is located) which was in Knoxville.
I called the BBB in Knoxville and told them of my
situation. The lady on the phone (who was very helpfull and
I thank the BBB folks for thier help) went to her files and
pulled the one that they have on Abel Supply. What she then
told me is something that I did not want to hear. I seems
that Abel supply has a list of complaints against them. Oth-
ers had fallen in the same situation as myself and reported
it to the BBB.
She then told me that as far as they knew, Abel Supply
had not responded nor taken ANY action to rectify or find
out more about any of the complaints against them.
Well, September 6th came and went and no cheque
arrived. I decied to give them some time in the hopes that
the mail may have slowed them down somewhat. I sent my
letter by courier in order to give them plently of time to
take some sort of action.
On Sept 28 I called Abel and asked where my money was.
The GM said he did not know what I was talking about but
that he would look into the matter and call me on Monday
evening. Monday evening arrived and what to my surprise the
phone rang and it was Abel Supply. The person on the other
end was not the GM but was someone else who was only giving
the message that the money would be sent before the week was
out.
In the mean time I posted the following to USENET to
find out if there were any others in the same boat as me.
I would like to hear from anyone that has dealt with Abel Supply
in Tennesse. I would specifically like to know if you have had
any hassels with them and if so have they corrected any
problems that you had.
I ask this because I am having ALOT of trouble getting certain
things straightened out with them.
aTdHvAaNnKcSe,
Trev
=============================================================================
Trevor Paquette - GraphicsLand, U of Calgary[Home of The Great Train Rubbery]
UUCP: ...!{ubc-cs,utai,alberta}!calgary!paquette ICBM:51 03 N/114 05 W
Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter. *** Don't worry, be happy
Here are the responses that I got that say they are
satisfied with Abel.
==============================================================================
From: hgm%ncsuvx.ncsu.edu%UcEdu.UNCA.AdhocNet.CA (Hal G. Meeks)
I have dealt with Abel several times since getting my 2000 a year ago. Their
service has steadily improved to the point where I would recommend them to
anyone without hesitation. To wit: I ordered a GVP 2000/2 SCSI board from
them two weeks ago. This was on a Friday. On monday, I called them to see if
my order was okay. They said they were backordered on it and also Arkanoids,
which I had also ordered. Thursday I recieved my board. Next Tuesday
(yesterday) I recieved Arkanoid. The worst I have ever had to wait was 1
month for a copy of TxEd, but this was 9 months ago. They have gone to a new
system since then, and I have been very pleased. Their prices are about the
best you are going to find anywhere. And their selection is amazing.
--hal
hgm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu
==============================================================================
From: kim@uts.amdahl.com (Kim DeVaughn)
I've had several orders from Abel. All were S/W, and I had them ship COD.
No problems or complaints there.
I don't especially care for the way they run their BBS, but that's another
story.
/kim
==============================================================================
From: ubc-cs!uw-beaver!cornell!mailrus!ames!ucsd!sdsu!larryr (Larry Riedel)
I have ordered several things from Abel, and have never had a problem yet.
Right now I have an Amiga 500 ordered and I haven't got it yet. Hopefully
this won't be the beginning of my troubles.
Larry
==============================================================================
From: ubc-cs!uunet!sugar!ssd (Scott Denham)
I've had two go-rounds with Abel supply -
1) I convinced a friend he NEEDED an Amiga. This was about the time the
500's came out - local dealers wouldn't budge on the price, but had
plenty of 'em. For 6 weeks, Able was getting some "tommorow" but
would not take an order or a deposit. We finally gave up, the 2000
trade-in/buy back deal came up so I bought a 2000 and sold him my
1000. Leading to...
2) Just after that, I ordered $300 worth of software by phone. The
stuff showed up in 3 days, no errors, no problems, no fuss.
There are a number of folks around Houston who claim to be regular
satisified customers of theirs.
==============================================================================
From: ubc-cs!uw-beaver!cornell!mailrus!utah-gr!cs.utah.edu!esunix!lhoward (Larry Howard)
Sorry, but I've had nothing but good service and help from them. They
don't charge my VISA account until they ship an item, and all items in
stock when I order are at my house 5 working days later.
Sorry to hear you've had troubles with them.
Larry Howard
==============================================================================
From: Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com
I have dealt with Abel so many times I can't remember, I have only had 1 proble
m with all the order I have placed. They accidently shipped Telewars instead of
Telegames. I called and told them what happend, they shipped the correct title
out right away without waiting for the title I had... they told me to send it
in when I got a chance!!! That is the only problem that I have ever had!
And NOBODY beats (let alone matches) their prices.
- Doug -
Doug_B_Erdely@Portal.Cup.Com
==============================================================================
From: blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner)
Abel Supply has been plenty able in my book. Many moons ago I ordered
Facc, Firepower, and Alien Fires from them. One was in stock, the others
expected in 2-5 days. They arrived as promised over a week's time.
Recently I bought Microfiche Filer and a flickerFixer from them (two
seperate orders about 2 weeks apart). The software was in stock, and in
my hands within a week. The flickerFixer wasn't in stock. They told me
it would be 2-3 days to order it in. I told them to go ahead, and it was
in my hands within 10 days.
> I ask this because I am having ALOT of trouble getting certain
> things straightened out with them.
Sorry to hear that, but they've done right by me.
--
Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108
UUCP Addresses: {ucbvax,allegra,decvax}!decwrl!esunix!blgardne
utah-cs!esunix!blgardne usna!esunix!blgardne
"Nobody will ever need more than 64K." "Nobody needs multitasking on a PC."
==============================================================================
From: sdl@linus.UUCP (Steven D. Litvintchouk)
I have ordered the ASDG RAM expansion, and several software titles,
from Abel Supply. Everything arrived on time, without any problems or
delays. Some orders I placed by voice/phone, others by logging onto
their BBS. No problems with either method.
Of course, the products I ordered had been in stock and shipping for
some time. If you're attempting to order a new product, I strongly
advise you not to order it until it's actually in stock. If they
won't tell you if it's in stock, shop elsewhere.
Steven Litvintchouk
MITRE Corporation
Burlington Road
Bedford, MA 01730
Fone: (617)271-7753
ARPA: sdl@mitre-bedford.arpa
UUCP: ...{cbosgd,decvax,genrad,ll-xn,mit-eddie,philabs,utzoo}!linus!sdl
"Those who will be able to conquer software will be able to
conquer the world." -- Tadahiro Sekimoto, president, NEC Corp.
****************************************************************************
And hear are the responses that say they are NOT satis-
fied with Abel Supply.
==============================================================================
From: ins_adjb%jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu@cunyvm.cuny.edu
I have found the following algorithm almost 100% effective
when ordering from Abel Supply.
#define EQUAL !strcmp
OrderingFromAbel(item)
amigaware *item;
{
char answer[BUFSIZ];
if (IsHardware(item))
OrderFromSomewhereElse(item);
else {
AskFirst("Is it in stock RIGHT NOW?");
Wait(1 << Hold_On_While_I_Check);
gets(answer);
if (EQUAL(answer, "yes"))
Order(item);
else
OrderFromSomewhereElse(item);
}
}
/* Yes, Abel Supply has the cheapest prices. But they NEVER
keep hardware in stock. I have even heard this from the hardware
manufacturers themselves. Order from Abel ONLY if you are ordering
software and the software is in stock RIGHT NOW. Not "tomorrow". */
--
Dan Barrett ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP UUCP
barrett@cs.jhu.edu (128.220.13.4) ARPA
Dept. of Computer Science, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218
==============================================================================
From: meyers@wybbs.UUCP (John Meyers)
I don't think Abel is able. I placed an order on an in stock item, and it
took 3 months to receive it. When I finally got it, it was in a reused box.
(The shipping label was about 5 labels thick, with several other addresses
on the others.) The box was quite beat-up. Upon trial of the product, I
found that it wouldn't work with 1.2. I specificly ordered the Amiga 500
version of the product. (If there wasn't such a version, they should have
said something.) Well, I gave them a call, and they told me that it was my
fault that it only came in 1.1 and I shouldn't have ordered it. (You may
notice that the lists NOW contain special version information. Funny how
they added that after I started raising hell about their questionable
procedures.)
Finally, they told me I could only get credit and not cash. Well, it is
real funny how they "don't have any listing about credit in my account."
It scares me to think that this place still has my credit card number on
file.
A nice place with pretty good prices and EXCELLENT service is Safe Harbor
in Wisconsin. 1-800-544-6599, or BBS at (414) 544-6567. I have yet to find
better service and support.
---
__ , |John Michael Meyers -> meyers@wybbs.UUCP
(_/_ / /)) _ _ _ _ |
_/(//)/) / / (-'(/(-'/ ' '-,| "Make Mine /|
(/""""""""""""""(_/"""""""""" | /-|MIGA!"
DISCLAIMER : I have no affiliation with Safe Harbor other than being
a person quite impressed with the establishment.
==============================================================================
From: ebham%uncecs.edu%UcEdu.UNCA.AdhocNet.CA@Ucnet.UNCA.AdhocNet.CA
My recent experience with ABEL SUPPLY has been a nightmare. To answer
your question, they are unreliable, tell lies, will not or cannot
remedy their errors, and appear to stock NONE of the stuff they
advertise.
If they have your money, and have not delivered, I would immediately
write the Tenessee Attorney General's office, and if the US Mail was
used even in part, the fraud division of the US Postal service.
At one time, about a year ago, Abel was reliable, but no more.
If you revieve other impressions, it would be a service to post
a summary to comp.sys.amiga.
==============================================================================
From: Ernie Gorrie <ubc-cs!egami.wimsey.bc.ca!Ernie>
I have tried to post this to comp.sys.amiga, but I'm not sure if it will
take. In an abundance of caution, I am E-Mailing directly to you too.
I, too, have been having problems recently with Abel.
I ordered some software from them about a year ago and had no problems at
all. This time has been a real pain in the patoot. I ordered DPaint II, FACC
II, Deluxe Art Parts 1 and 2, FS II, and an AmiGen all in one order, at the
beginning of September and specified UPS 2nd day air delivery. I have not
received delivery of any of them yet.
From what I can figure out, here are some of their problems:
1. They must have few items in stock. They claim that they have shipped
the FS II (Sept 14) and the AmiGen (Sept 19). They will ship the other items,
"when they are in stock". I don't think any of the listed items should be a
special order, do you?
2. They don't have the ability to send orders as a single shipment. In my
original order, I asked that they ship everything together. I received E-Mail
from the Abel Sysop who advised me that that really was not feasible. He said
that they had no way of setting items apart for shipment together. They just
check availability of items each day and ship what they have available. If I
wanted it to come in a single order, it would wait until one day when they
happened to have EVERY item available on the SAME day. (My sense is that hell
might freeze over first.)
3. They have very poor customer support these days. I have spent over
$30.00 so far in long distance charges trying to find out what is going on with
my order. I have left E-Mail enquiries and have not received replies. I have
called voice. They have taken my daytime number, presumably to call me back
with info. I have not heard back from them. I have even been unable to get
the UPS shipping numbers for the items that have been shipped. I can't have
UPS trace those items without the shipping numbers and Abel hasn't come
through with supplying them to me.
The implication of all of this is that what started out to be the cheapest
way to order my software is quickly becoming much more expensive. Not only do
I not have the items, I have big phone bills and I will have multiple UPS
shipping charges.
Now here's the kicker....I just ordered a 60 Meg SCSI hard drive system
from them! I can't believe myself sometimes. (I can hear you all snickering
right now about somebody being born every minute.)
--
Ernie Gorrie
9431 McBurney Drive,
Richmond, B.C.
CANADA, V6Y 3C5
or; ernie@egami.wimsey.bc.ca {ubc-cs,uunet}!van-bc!egami!ernie
==============================================================================
From: ihnp4!ihuxy!lapin
Trev,
My problems with them are as follows:
o I was charged twice for a starboard II
o They charged me for a peice of software I didn't order
I had a lot of problems getting in touch with them to
straighten it out, but they did so reasonably quickly
once I did. In summary, major hassles, but everything
worked out.
David Roch
lapin@ihuxy.att.com
..!att!ihuxy!lapin
==============================================================================
From: ubc-cs!uunet!sugar!emcalc (William M. Schmidt)
Trev, I had a terrible time with them a few months ago. I order a
Microbotics Mousetime and they immediately debited my Mastercard.
When I hadn't heard from them in six weeks I started trying to call
them and got a real run around. It was always "it'll go out tommorrow".
I finally told them that I was going to have Mastercard cancel the
charge. It arrived by overnight mail the next day. The total time elapsed
was 12 weeks. Never again.
Bill Schmidt
==============================================================================
From: whitcomb@unicorn.Berkeley.EDU (Gregg Whitcomb)
In article <9578@cup.portal.com>, Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com writes:
>
> I have dealt with Abel so many times I can't remember, I have only had 1 proble
> m with all the order I have placed. They accidently shipped Telewars instead of
> Telegames. I called and told them what happend, they shipped the correct title
> out right away without waiting for the title I had... they told me to send it
> in when I got a chance!!! That is the only problem that I have ever had!
> And NOBODY beats (let alone matches) their prices.
>
> - Doug -
>
> Doug_B_Erdely@Portal.Cup.Com
I had just the opposite experience. I've dealt with them once (and
it will probably be the last time). I ordered about 5 items simultaneously
(digiview, stand, camera, etc). They didn't have any of the items
in stock at the time, and thus the 2-day UPS was almost worthless. Not
only that, as soon as a product arrives at their site, they send it
off. This of course means that I paid 2-3 times the shipping costs
because my 5 item order arrived in 4 packages. Of course, getting a
camera by itself is worthless. Not only that, their product list
shows an item labelled "ABCD Parallel data switch" which I interpretted
to mean "compatible with the Amiga parellel DB25 port"... it wasn't. It
was instead, a switchbox for Centronics cables---AACK! I sent it back
immediately (about 1 1/2 MONTHS ago) and have not received the correct
item yet (on backorder, of course).
If you still think that the slightly better prices they offer are worth
the risk, I suggest that you confirm that the products are in stock
before ordering and double check that what they have in mind are what
you want... of course, the ordering people won't know a DB25 connector
from a Centronics so good luck.
-Gregg Whitcomb
BTW, I warned them when I returned the data switch that I'd be sending
this message out... it didn't seem to help me get the replacement
any faster.
==============================================================================
From: nsw@cord.UUCP (Neil Weinstock)
Trevor,
Well, you're probably not going to want to hear this, but...
I ordered a Starboard II 2 meg memory expansion for my
A1000, and, to make a very long story short, after about 2 - 3
months, 10-20 lies from Abel, and about 10 long distance calls
on my phone bill, I finally got the damned thing.
They told me it'd be in the mail in about a week - at least
4 times. It was a MAJOR HASSLE, and I'll NEVER deal with
them again.
David
****************************************************************************
As you can see there are people who like Abel and those
who do not. It seems that when ordering from Abel the best
message can be summed up as follows. DO NOT ORDER HARDWARE
FROM THEM. IF IT IS SOFTWARE, MAKE SURE IT IS IN STOCK AND
READY TO SHIP.
When Abel can deliver what they sell they do a good
job, but when they screw up.. They screw up BAD. Never any
middle ground. And it seems they screw up more ofern then
not.
It is now October 11 and I have not seen nor heard any-
thing about my money. I am getting EXTREMLY frustrated (as
if I wasnt before..) and am going to write the Tenessee
Attorney General's office and tell them of my situation.
Hopefully this will get some sort of action going. In the
mean time I STRONGLY urge ALL of you to boycott Abel until
they do something about their BELOW LOWSTANDARD NON-EXISTANT
customer support. They don't seem to care anything about
the consumer nor about thier complaints.
****************************************************************************
A Users Guide to Mail Order.
Before ordering from a mail order company there are a
couple of questions that you should ask yourself first.
1. Am I prepared to wait for the item if something goes
wrong? In most cases the items that you want ot order
is available from your local hardware/software dealer
immediatly. Granted it is probably more expensive then
the mail order price, but that is what you pay for con-
vience. The item is there and you can take it home
right away.
2. Can I get a better price from my local dealer? Usually
your local dealer can be talked into giving you a
better price on an item. And if you and some other peo-
ple are looking for the same item you can organize a
If you do decide that you want to purchase via mail
order make sure that you look around first. There are ALOT
of places out there each saying that they are the lowest,
and alot saying they will meet or beat any other advertised
price. Take advantage of this and shop around. Invest in a
few phone calls and do some comparison shopping.
Just a side note here. I have one MAJOR complaint
against companies the states that only have a 1-800 number
for the continental US. WHY? Is there nothing above the 49th
parallel? Granted the Canadian market is not a big as the US
market, but it is still there just the same. I know I would
deal with more companies if they had a 1-800 number that was
good in Canada as well as the US.
While you are asking about prices from companies you
should also ask the following questions to them as well.
These questions SHOULD greatly influence your choice on who
you want to deal with. (Most of these question are taken
without permission from page 112 in the August 1988 issue of
Computer Shopper. The page is an ad from the Microcomputer
Marketing Council.)
1. How long has the company been in business?
2. Does the company offer technical assistance?
3. Is there a service facility?
4. Are manufacturer's warranties handled through the com-
pany?
5. Does the seller have formal return and refund policies?
6. Is there and additional charge for use of credit cards?
(This is the one that I hate the most. Companies WANT
and NEED your business. To get it they offer the consu-
mer a more convient way of purchasing. Why should you
pay a penalty to use this form of payment???)
7. Are credit card charges held until time of shipping?
(They SHOULD ALWAYS be held until time of shipping)
8. What are the shipping costs for the items ordered?
9. Are there any re-stocking fees? (these fees should NOT
apply to you the consumer. This is a general maintenace
type fee that the company SHOULD have to pay.)
Reputable dealers will answer all these questions
without giving you the run around. If they do, do not deal
with them. Chances are they are not very reliable.
Now that you have decided to deal with a certain busi-
ness you should be a specific with them as possible.
1. State as completely and accurately as you can what mer-
chandise you want including brand name, model and cata-
log number (if possible).
2. Establish that the item is in stock, is READY to ship
and confirm the shipping date.
3. Confirm that the price is as advertised.
4. Obtain an order number and identification of the sales
representative.
5. Make a record of your order, noting exact price includ-
ing shipping and handling, date of order, promised
shipping date and the order number.
6. If you can avoid it, NEVER pay with cash, cheque or
money order. Use a credit card, it is safer for you in
the end. you can always call your credit card company
(Visa or whatever) and refuse payment on an item.
Using these simple guidlines you can avaoid alot of
hassles and headaches that others have gome though. You are
a costumer with certain rights and you deserve to be pro-
tected. Make sure you exercise these rights and protect
yourself. It will save time and money in the end for both
you and the mail order business you are dealing with.
=============================================================================
Trevor Paquette - GraphicsLand, U of Calgary[Home of The Great Train Rubbery]
UUCP: ...!{ubc-cs,utai,alberta}!calgary!paquette ICBM:51 03 N/114 05 W
Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter. *** Don't worry, be happy dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) (10/14/88)
Another way to get back at dishonest/shoddy mail order merchandisers is to
write the magazines they advertise in.
I had problems with a now defunct mail order house that advertised in
COMPUTE! magazine. After several frustrating months, I wrote COMPUTE!.
A few weeks later I got a call from COMPUTE! saying that they had checked
into the problem, and a refund was on it's way. Two days later, I received
my refund from the mail order house!
If you hit the vendor where it hurts, you often get results!
Another remedy to the "They charged my card, but I waited 9999 weeks before
the product showed up..." problem is to order COD. You pay a feeS&d&~, but
if your order is several hunderd dollars, the fee is less than 9 weeks of
interest on your money!
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"This isn't Heaven, this is Cleveland!!!!"
Dave Lowrey
Amdahl Corp.
Houston, Texas
(713)-850-8828
...!{ames,sun,decwrl,uunet,....}!amdahl!dwl10
[ The opinions expressed <may> be those of the author and not necessarily
those of his most eminent employer. ]stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (holly) (10/14/88)
This is getting cross-posted all over creation, so please, if you have a follow-up that only belongs in one group, edit that newsgroup!!! Please!! With reference to problems with mail order, I'd like to offer a (not too) brief statement in defense of dealers. Please note that I am part-owner in a small store, fairly new, and pretty much limited to the Atari ST and Mega. This post may be a little biased, but I also try to look at it from the side of the consumer, especially the "average" consumer who is not a power user, not a hacker... just someone who uses a computer. Is there a place in this world for mail order? Probably. But... please remember that just as you expect to earn a living from your job, your dealer's job is the store he/she/it runs and the services provided to you, whether those be consultation or repair type services. If you come to me and use my services (e.g. trying out my software, asking questions, having me track down products and in general just picking my brain), then go buy from mail order because the price is cheaper, you have in effect stolen from me. You have used my services, my knowledge, my software, but have not paid for them. I think we all would agree that it just simply isn't fair. When you buy a product from my dealership, you aren't just buying a product. You're buying my support. You're buying my education. You're helping to repay the money we spent to become an "authorized" dealer if we are one (and believe me, that's no small sum!). You're buying the opportunity to come into my store and try out new software before you purchase it to make sure it's what you want. Many times we've opened packages for people to "test drive". Many times they have bought them. Many times they haven't. That's okay. It's part of being a dealer. Sometimes someone comes in ready to buy an expensive program, but when I talk to them about their needs, the program they're looking at is overkill, and I can recommend another, less expensive or less complex package. That's okay, too. As a dealer, it's my job to provide the best service I can to my customers. If I give solid and responsible advice, my customers are going to come back when they need something else. If I make a half dozen long distance calls to find some obscure book, that extra half-mile I've gone will pay off in a loyal and satisfied customer. If I've done my job well, I will be rewarded with recommendations from satisfied customers. If I've done my job well, I deserve to be paid for it. It's okay with me if you buy mail order, but please don't expect to come to me if you have problems with it, or if you want to return it because it doesn't do what you want. Please don't spend 3 hours with me some evening asking me everything I know about it and then not buy it from me when you buy it. Please don't ask me to try to train you in how to use it the way you need to. And don't expect me to drop other (read: paying) customers when you walk in the door and be exceedingly friendly or helpful. I can't afford to run a not-for-profit dealership. I have bills to pay, too. The reason mail order places can sell things at the prices they do is because they don't have to spend 3 hours (or more!) talking to you about the software/hardware trying to make sure it's what you need/want. They don't have to have machines available to let you try the software. They don't have to maintain a "pretty" store because it's required for an *authorized* dealership. They don't have to be there to answer the phone and spend time explaining how to set up the hard drive (printer, modem, monitor, whatever) you just bought because the manual can't be translated into a recognizable language. Mail order won't send you home with another copy of a software package because your disk drive refuses to read your original disk all of a sudden. Mail order is great if that's all you need. Please don't complain about dealers because they can't compete with mail order prices. We can't. But then, mail order can't compete with our service, either. We don't charge "list"... but we don't charge mail order. With a lot of luck, we may get into the financial "black" in about 18 months, but that's only for equipment, stock, etc. Taking into account the amount of time we have spent and will spend tracking leads, teaching, talking, reading, etc... well, let's just say it's a good thing we enjoy this... :-) I apologize for the length of this, but I think it needed to be said. It's not meant as a chastisement or a gripe. There's simply more than meets the eye to retail sales. I probably stated it a bit more eloquently on GEnie, but then, I didn't have the phone ringing all the time and people in and out while I was writing that one. ;-} Happy computing and support your local computer pusher! *climbing back down off the soapbox*
riley@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley) (10/14/88)
In article <c1bvN42Y=51010ZLZCc@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: >Another remedy to the "They charged my card, but I waited 9999 weeks before >the product showed up..." problem is to order COD. You pay a fee, but >if your order is several hunderd dollars, the fee is less than 9 weeks of >interest on your money! You also lose a lot of leverage if the product proves to be defective. If you have a problem after delivery, and payed by credit card, you can notify your bank of the problem and withhold payment until the problem is resolved. If you pay COD, the money's gone as soon as it's delivered. There is a limit on how far in advance they can charge your credit card. I forget what it is offhand, but it's of order one billing cycle, so you can withhold payment for goods you have been charged for but have not received. Also, a credible threat of legal action after that time limit has expired can be dramatically effective at stirring otherwise recalcitrant companies to action. -Dan Riley (dsr@lns61.tn.cornell.edu, dsr@crnlns.bitnet) -Wilson Lab, Cornell U. -Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and this should not be construed in any manner as legal advice. I try to be an informed and prudent consumer, and this is my best understanding of the federal consumer protection laws relating to credit card purchases. No warrantees expressed or implied.
bryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer) (10/14/88)
In article <c1bvN42Y=51010ZLZCc@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: =- =-Another remedy to the "They charged my card, but I waited 9999 weeks before =-the product showed up..." problem is to order COD. You pay a feeS&d&~, but =-if your order is several hunderd dollars, the fee is less than 9 weeks of =-interest on your money! =- And if the merchandise is defective, then you're screwed, because they've got your CASH, and you've got a widget that doesn't widge. No thanks-- I order by credit card whenever possible. If the merchant doesn't ship within 30 days, I can call my bank and have them cancel the charge, and if they send me stuff that's broken or isn't what I ordered, I can send it back and do the same. The point is, with a credit card, it's MY money until I agree to pay, or until an independent arbiter (i.e. judge) tells me I have to pay in the case of a dispute. This is the service you are buying by paying the extra 2-5% for a credit card purchase. Your bank is on your side, since you have a more personal relationship with them than does the merchant. You can take your credit card business elsewhere, but the merchant cannot, if he wants to continue to accept that card. If the bank is not on your side, it sucks--find another bank, and tell the old one why you are doing so. You'll be doing its remaining customers a favor. PS: What the fuck is c1bvN42Y=51010ZLZCc anyway? ______________________________________________________________________________ /_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/ |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| _No dark sarcasm in the classroom|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|___ |____Teachers leave the kids alone__|_____|_____|_____|_bryan@cs.utexas.edu___| ___|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|{ihnp4,seismo,...}!cs.utexas.edu!bryan_ |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
barrett@ektools.UUCP (Chris Barrett) (10/14/88)
In article <c1bvN42Y=51010ZLZCc@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: >Another remedy to the "They charged my card, but I waited 9999 weeks before >the product showed up..." problem is to order COD. You pay a feeS&d&~, but >if your order is several hunderd dollars, the fee is less than 9 weeks of >interest on your money! > I've had a few problems with mail order houses, but I always use a credit card, never COD, I'm never home when they deliver stuff. The credit card company acts as a holding agent. If you don't receive the merchandise and your card has been charged, simply call the credit card company and tell them that you hav'nt received the merchandise, they will then re-bill the sender and you don't pay that amount on the bill. Most times the card company will ask you to write them a letter stating this also. The sending company will then have re-bill your card, or prove to the card company that they shipped the merchandise. I've never paid interest on the things I've not received. Most credit card companies have a toll free number and it's usually on your statement, the people on the other end of the phone have been pretty good to deal with, they are used to this stuff. Chris. rochester!kodak!ektools!barrett
BobR@cup.portal.com (Bob BobR Retelle) (10/17/88)
Holly, I think I always knew you were "good people", from the brief time I knew you on the Roundtable... (I wish you good fortune with your enterprise as an Atari dealer...) Most of the Atari dealers I've known have been honest businessmen (er,persons) who care about their customers... I think, if nothing else, this long article demonstrates the need for caution when trying to save money by dealing with the "unknown", as "mail-order" often is... Generally, if it seems that the price is "to good to be true", it's TRUE! BobR
twb@hoqax.UUCP (T.W. Beattie) (10/17/88)
In article <c1bvN42Y=51010ZLZCc@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: >Another remedy to the "They charged my card, but I waited 9999 weeks before >the product showed up..." problem is to order COD. You pay a feeS&d&~, but >if your order is several hunderd dollars, the fee is less than 9 weeks of >interest on your money! You are under no obligation to pay a credit card bill for merchandise you haven't received. Simply write a brief explanation on the bill, subtract the amount and pay the rest. Same for returned/damaged/etc. merchandise.
wg@aluxp.UUCP (Bill Gieske) (10/18/88)
I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS pay mail orders with a credit card. AND, I do not pay the credit card charge UNLESS I have the product AND it works. Otherwise, I notifiy the bank that I did not receive the item or whatever and refuse to pay the charge until I have the item, it works, and I am satisfied. This gives ME control over the process, rather than the mail order outfit. Mail order outfits are always cooperative when you owe them for products shipped.
rchampe@hubcap.UUCP (Richard Champeaux) (10/18/88)
In article <1892@hoqax.UUCP>, twb@hoqax.UUCP (T.W. Beattie) writes: > In article <c1bvN42Y=51010ZLZCc@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: > >Another remedy to the "They charged my card, but I waited 9999 weeks before > >the product showed up..." problem is to order COD. You pay a feeS&d&~, but > >if your order is several hunderd dollars, the fee is less than 9 weeks of > >interest on your money! > > > You are under no obligation to pay a credit card bill for merchandise you > haven't received. > Simply write a brief explanation on the bill, subtract the amount and pay the > rest. > Same for returned/damaged/etc. merchandise. A friend of mine ordered two pieces of software from GO-AMIGA and they sent him eight. Normally that wouldn't be a problem, except he had a debit card. Appearantly with a debit card, the charge gets taken directly from your account. Instead of being charged the $65 he was expecting, over $200 was taken out of his account. It took him about a month to get it straightened out. Being a college student, he didn't have much more than $250 in his account, so the checks he had written bounced, and he had to put off paying some of his bills untill his account was credited. He chose to straighten it out through GO-AMIGA, but I sure if he had gone through his bank, it would have been quicker. Still, by the time he received the package and discovered the error, the money was already gone, causing him to bounce checks for which he had to pay service charges. Rich Champeaux Clemson University
barrett@jhunix.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (10/18/88)
>In article <c1bvN42Y=51010ZLZCc@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: >>Another remedy to the "They charged my card, but I waited 9999 weeks before >>the product showed up..." problem is to order COD. You pay a fee, but >>if your order is several hunderd dollars, the fee is less than 9 weeks of >>interest on your money! It is illegal for a company to charge your card and then not ship the product within 30 days. Call your Postmaster General if you have problems with a mail order company like this. -- Dan Barrett ins_adjb@jhunix.UUCP UUCP barrett@cs.jhu.edu (128.220.13.4) ARPA Dept. of Computer Science, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218
Doug_R_Platt@cup.portal.com (10/22/88)
RE: mailorder buying with credit card What many people don't realize is that LEGALLY you have MANY more rights when ordering via mail order if the order is paid for with credit card rather than a check. If you pay with a check, the company may even totally ignore you if you have a problem and its an especially bad company. With a credit card order, problems reported to the company will receive MUCH greater attention with the increased clout behind VISA, Mastercard, etc. and these in- creased rights are supported by the law. Ask any attorney.