thad@cup.portal.com (10/07/88)
CRETIN MANOR MAIL Anyone who still sucks up to the author of BYTE's "CHAOS MANOR MAIL" column must not have read the lead item in the October 1988 issue of BYTE (page 33). In response to a letter by Fabio Favata (of Italy) extolling the reasons for the ST being the leading computer in Germany and England (oh really?), our favorite columnist writes (page 34): `` Thank you for the report. One reason Atari and Amiga sell in Europe is because they don't have to pay so much attention to certifications by the FCC. I do wonder if the FCC's real purpose here is to help the administration deal with the "too strong" dollar. If so, I have news; they've been wildly successful. - Jerry '' What IS that joker smoking? First, in an inebriated state (and don't say he wasn't; anyone forget the altercation between Jerry and others on the GEnie-chartered boat in San Francisco Bay in February 1987) he's unable to see and/or manipulate the F-18 code wheel (couldn't he have thought of turning the lights up so he could see?), he NOW states CBM's products aren't in compliance with FCC rule 15 in this country? The VDE/CISPR's standards are STRICTER than the FCC's; if it's OK in Europe it WILL pass FCC here in the USA. In *MY* opinion, Pournelle is totally incompetent to be writing ANYTHING about computers. Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (10/09/88)
Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com ] Writes:
:In response to a letter by Fabio Favata (of Italy) extolling the reasons for
:the ST being the leading computer in Germany and England (oh really?), our
:favorite columnist writes (page 34):
:
:`` Thank you for the report. One reason Atari and Amiga sell in Europe is
:because they don't have to pay so much attention to certifications by the
:FCC. I do wonder if the FCC's real purpose here is to help the administration
:deal with the "too strong" dollar. If so, I have news; they've been wildly
:successful. - Jerry ''
:
:
:What IS that joker smoking? First, in an inebriated state (and don't say
Well, it *is* a well known fact that it takes a while for Commodore
machines to get FCC certification because they usually fail the first go
around... generally, they are closer to the line than other machines.
It is also a well known fact that sending ANYTHING through the FCC for the
required certification takes forever anyway.
How Jerry related this to sales figures for the Amiga and Atari,
and how he failed to mention that *ALL* brands are effected similarily,
I cannot guess.
:In *MY* opinion, Pournelle is totally incompetent to be writing ANYTHING
:about computers.
In *MY* opinion too. Some of the stuff is right, but too much is
wrong. Like in a big way wrong.
-Mattdaveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/11/88)
in article <8810090523.AA27140@cory.Berkeley.EDU>, dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) says: > Well, it *is* a well known fact that it takes a while for Commodore > machines to get FCC certification because they usually fail the first go > around... generally, they are closer to the line than other machines. No, it's a well-known *fiction* that Commodore usually fails the first time through. Think about it, and re-read your second point. As with ANY government operation, FCC certification takes lots of time and paperwork. Therefore, you don't go for an official FCC test until you already know you're going to pass. Everyone does it this way. There are lots of independent FCC test houses that run checks on machines for manufacturers, so they can fix them before they get to FCC testing. WE have an FCC test shack right here out in back of the West Chester (though before the A500 we tested at a Commodore-owned test shack in San Jose). > It is also a well known fact that sending ANYTHING through the FCC for the > required certification takes forever anyway. That's true. Around the time of the A2000 it was especially bad, because the FCC had just started getting tough on Taiwan, Inc. And what that tough really meant was that all you had to do was even THINK "PC Compatibility" and they'd be extra-special-tough on you. The thought police did catch up with the hint of PC Compatibility in the A2000. Perhaps in the past it was easier to get through with "golden boards" or "lab queens", but as of recently, not so. The extent to which a company is certain to make sure their machine complies, and what it complies with, can be complicated. I expect Sun can apply for Class A (industrial use only) for their Sun 4 and get away with it, whereas the Amiga 500 is obviously Class B (home/consumer use). If you're caught not passing in the field (an audit), you get fines based on the number of units in stock that don't pass, on a daily basis. So obviously Commodore has more to worry about in that respect that a garage shop. And they're also a bigger target. The FTZ in Germany is, in general, equally tough, but I'm sure they pass through political phases just like in the US, so there are certainly times when it's easier to get stuff through German certification than US. It may not take as long, either. The rest of Europe is apparently pretty lax. Apparently that's what Atari found when preparing the ST, since they did launch it there first, with a lead of several months. Amiga couldn't, even if they wanted to, since there was no PAL Agnus chip at the time. Also, not every country is interested in the same things, and FCC is really just part of a general concept we used to call "safety engineering", for lack of a better term. Includes stuff like UL listing. The German A2000 was radio quiet enough for Canada, but not the US. On the other hand, Canada didn't allow the user-accessible power fuse on the C128 power supply, whereas the US did. > How Jerry related this to sales figures for the Amiga and Atari, > and how he failed to mention that *ALL* brands are effected similarily, > I cannot guess. In any case, this guy doesn't have the slightest clue as to what's going on. I was amazed when he wrote that stuff. I wonder if even he knew what he was trying to say. Maybe he does get lit before writing these columns. > :In *MY* opinion, Pournelle is totally incompetent to be writing ANYTHING > :about computers. > > In *MY* opinion too. Some of the stuff is right, but too much is > wrong. Like in a big way wrong. You got my "*MY* opinion", too. If they reclassified the column as SATIRE rather than EDITORIAL, I think I'd almost enjoy reading it. But such things loose their humor when you realize just how many folks out there don't know any better. > -Matt -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
jdow@gryphon.CTS.COM (J. Dow) (10/12/88)
In article <9809@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com writes: > > CRETIN MANOR MAIL > >Anyone who still sucks up to the author of BYTE's "CHAOS MANOR MAIL" column >must not have read the lead item in the October 1988 issue of BYTE (page 33). > >In response to a letter by Fabio Favata (of Italy) extolling the reasons for >the ST being the leading computer in Germany and England (oh really?), our >favorite columnist writes (page 34): > >`` Thank you for the report. One reason Atari and Amiga sell in Europe is >because they don't have to pay so much attention to certifications by the >FCC. I do wonder if the FCC's real purpose here is to help the administration >deal with the "too strong" dollar. If so, I have news; they've been wildly >successful. - Jerry '' > > >What IS that joker smoking? First, in an inebriated state (and don't say >he wasn't; anyone forget the altercation between Jerry and others on the >GEnie-chartered boat in San Francisco Bay in February 1987) he's unable to >see and/or manipulate the F-18 code wheel (couldn't he have thought of turning >the lights up so he could see?), he NOW states CBM's products aren't in >compliance with FCC rule 15 in this country? > >The VDE/CISPR's standards are STRICTER than the FCC's; if it's OK in Europe >it WILL pass FCC here in the USA. > >In *MY* opinion, Pournelle is totally incompetent to be writing ANYTHING >about computers. > > >Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad] As I flamed before, you illiterate cretin, I was there at the party. That code wheel made use of that stupid EA product rather difficult. Jerry was not the person trying to run it. I was as wella s three other computer literate guests. But I guess you have all the intelligence in the world and everything works jus fine for you. Please tell me how you manage this wonderous feat. You a**holes are the reason Jerry is so put off on the Amiga. He cannot seem to say boo without some illiterate flaming him for stupid reasons. Meanwhile, it seems you are way to dumb to understand sarcasm when you see it. Go back and crawl under the rock you came up from under, twit. You have managed to rather infuriate me this time. {\,/} -- Sometimes a bird in the hand leaves a sticky deposit. Perhaps it were best it remain there in the bush with the other one. {@_@} jdow@bix (where else?) Sometimes the dragon wins. Sometimes jdow@gryphon.CTS.COM the knight. Does the fair maiden ever {backbone}!gryphon!jdow win? Surely both the knight and dragon stink. Maybe the maiden should suicide? Better yet - she should get an Amiga and quit playing with dragons and knights.
disd@hubcap.UUCP (Gary Heffelfinger) (10/12/88)
From article <7699@gryphon.CTS.COM>, by jdow@gryphon.CTS.COM (J. Dow): > In article <9809@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com writes: >> >> CRETIN MANOR MAIL [Deleted for brevity's sake] > As I flamed before, you illiterate cretin, I was there at the party. That code > wheel made use of that stupid EA product rather difficult. Jerry was not the > person trying to run it. I was as wella s three other computer literate guests. God, I'm sorry I started these code wheel discussions. Let us lighten the hell up for awhile. And if you can't lighten up, at least take the personal attacks to email. I'm sorry if we're attacking your pal Jerry, but we don't get to rub elbows with him and attend his killer (and obviously, dark) parties, so we don't know him very well. In fact, the only way we get to know him is through his novels and his "Chaos..." column. We see in said column, slanted view points and out-and-out untruths, and we don't like it. > > You a**holes are the reason Jerry is so put off on the Amiga. He cannot seem > to say boo without some illiterate flaming him for stupid reasons. Woah! Because *we* don't toe the Jerry line, he hates the Amiga? Really? Such power we have. Doesn't say much for his evalulation process, does it? The problem is that he says boo for the wrong reasons and ignores the right reasons to boo. Not just in the case of the Amiga but in any number of situations, he chooses the silliest reasons to like or dislike something. How can I be expected to do anything but bitch at him when I haven't been given any good reason to respect his authority? It has been said that he speaks for the great unwashed computer masses, and that may be true, but only because he is one of few people speaking. What he writes becomes gospel to those who have no other experience. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy. > > Meanwhile, it seems you are way to dumb to understand sarcasm when you see it. Sarcasm, hmm? Maybe in the case of the code wheel, but in the past his "sarcastic" comments have probably cost sales, and they are not always justified comments. > Go back and crawl under the rock you came up from under, twit. You have > managed to rather infuriate me this time. Obviously. :-) Listen, if you feel like we're taking pot shots at Jerry behind his back, you may forward any of my comments to him that you wish to. I'm not a BIXen, so I don't get to see what he has to say over there. Gary -- Gary Heffelfinger - Not speaking for Clemson Univ. (ISD) uucp: ... !gatech!hubcap!disd inet: disd@hubcap.clemson.edu ---=== Amiga. The computer for the best of us. ===---
wbralick@afit-ab.arpa (William A. Bralick) (10/13/88)
In article <7699@gryphon.CTS.COM> jdow@gryphon.CTS.COM (J. Dow) writes: >In article <9809@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com writes: >> >> CRETIN MANOR MAIL [conserving the width of the band] >You a**holes are the reason Jerry is so put off on the Amiga. He cannot seem >to say boo without some illiterate flaming him for stupid reasons. Gee, my 7-year-old daughter seems to have fewer problems with the Amiga than everybody's favorite power-user, Jerry. To be fair, Jerry probably catches some of the flak resulting from the general disappointment with Byte (since it has turned into such a pee-cee/mac rag). Even so, it will be interesting to see Jerry wait for his (free) NeXT machine. I guess as soon as Steve Jobs gets some free time he'll hustle right over to Xaos Manor to do some serious hand-holding with the perennial neophyte, Jerry POwerUseR-nelle! Well, I was able to say that without resorting to infantile potty-mouth. I wonder if other nettists will be able to do the same? Cordially, Will
dbk@fbog.UUCP (Dave B. Kinzer @ Price Rd. GEG) (10/14/88)
As a new Usenet user, and recent reader of the new.user.stuff,
I can assure you that the on-going flame behavior is exactly as
described there.
Now, as a constructive alternative, I suggest that jdow@bix ("I was
there") [Assumption: jdow knows JPournelle, sinc he was at party] get
a hold of the FA18fix program (probably available locally, but if not
it is on MECCA (602) 947-3335 8-N-1 300/1200/2400) and give it to
Mr. Pournelle (and assist him in using it if necessary).
This will demonstrate the S*U*P*P*O*R*T*I*V*E Amiga community's response
to an offensive copy protection scheme. It makes the game much more
playable and therefore much more enjoyable which in turn makes the Amiga
much more desirable.
The cost of calling the BBS is substantially less than the cost of the
game and significantly increases it's value (IMHO :-). I originally
played the game about twice before someone posted the fix to the board,
and I thought the wheel was a pain-in-the-rear. The program fixes the game
so that the code is always the same and easy to remember. The game itself
plays fantastic, I recommend to anyone that you buy it, fix it, and
enjoy it.
| @ @ // New to this Dave Kinzer |
| L \\ // (this space under construction) |
| \_/ \X/ The following might work, I'm not sure: noao!nud!fbog!dbk |ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (10/14/88)
[ I saw "Tin Toy" at the Hacker's Conference. No, I can't rip it off. ]
In an attempt to end this dreck.
Jerry is not computer literate, despite the fact that he owns many
computers. This is because computers are not his job. His vocation is
writing books and articles, not programming.
Jerry is not unique. There are many other computer illiterate
people out there. Not all of them are writers, but this doesn't change the
fact that they're illiterate.
Look, Jerry's just this guy, you know? By a quirk of fate, he
happen to start writing a column in BYTE magazine about his experiences with
computers, and that irritates a lot of us because we "know" he's not
qualified to write about computers.
When he blasts something, it's because he couldn't figure it out.
The probablilities are that one of us could have figured it out in a second.
Thus, we tend to write Jerry off as, "stupid", "drunk", "a cretin". The
trouble is that there are a heck of a lot more people like Jerry than there
are like us.
Consider for a moment the gymnastics you have to go through to
connect to your local BBS by phone. We innately understand why, when
something goes wrong, why it went wrong. Garbage on the screen? Ah, must
be line noise; hang up and try again. Purposeful garbage on the screen with
patterns? Hmmm, could be the wrong baud rate; try another one. Computer
not talking to the modem? Uh, try switching pins 2 and 3 in the serial
cable.
J. Random User has no chance in Hell of understanding this arcana.
And why should he have to? Why should anyone be required to learn about
RS-232 pinouts, baud rates, telephone line quality, the ASCII character set,
VT100 escape codes (to correct any messes made by line noise), etc. etc.
etc. just to call a BBS? This is what Jerry is trying, in his own rather
irritating way, to tell us: This is all artificially complex, and it
shouldn't be.
Jerry saw an experienced, highly intelligent, extremely computer
literate person unable to manipulate a code wheel to get a *GAME* to work.
Jerry told us about it. And guess what? He's right. I've used that code
wheel myself. On occasion, it's taken me three tries to get into that game.
I'm not stupid. Neither is Joanne. Yet we're unable to figure out the code
wheel in one go. It's artificially complex, and it shouldn't be.
I've met Jerry multiple times in person; Joanne even more
frequently. To me, Jerry is articulate, even when inebriated; forthright;
and brutally honest. Nothing escapes his candor. Apple failed for the
second year in a row to appear at the West Coast Computer Faire; Jerry
flamed them for it, in front of a large audience.
Jerry does not like the Amiga. We all understand it because we've
been completely through the machine six zillion times. Jerry hasn't. So
when a piece of software breaks, we say, "Oh, well obviously the programmer
called FreeMem() on a NULL pointer." This doesn't help Jerry. FreeMem()?
NULL pointer? What are these things of which you speak? All I know is that
the #&^@!&^%! thing doesn't work, and also crashes the raytracer which I had
running in the background and was 99.9% finished with the image I was
generating, and also took out eight hours of work in my RAM disk, and....
Jerry does not like the Amiga. He is not obligated to like it.
Just because he got a free 2000DK and has Joanne come running to his rescue
every time he has a problem does not obligate him to say nice things, nor
does it obligate him to keep silent if he doesn't like it.
We want him to not only like it, but love it. To do this, we have
to pander to him. The thought of this may irritate you even more. However,
keep in mind that, by pandering to Jerry, you are also pandering to "hundreds
if not thousands" of other computer illiterate people. You'll make the
Amiga easier to use by J. Random Users everywhere. If you can make Jerry
happy, chances are you'll make them happy, too.
And *THAT* will sell Amigas.
Did this make sense?
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
\_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac
O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack")
"Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctorbryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer) (10/15/88)
In article <7369@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: =- =- Did this make sense? =- Yes, Leo, it did. Except that you left out Jerry's most irritating and destructive characteristic: He MISREPRESENTS himself as being knowledgeable about computers. Not that he claims to know everything, or even anything; instead he fails to point out from time to time that he knows next to nothing. Most people, including myself and probably you as well, tend to assume that if someone is published, they know what they are talking about. If the good Dr. would admit once in a while that he is, as it were, just typing with a sledgehammer in the dark, then novice users could safely extract the useful bits from among his marathon polemics on drive door latches and what have you, we "experts" could stop having nightmares about Pope J.P.'s Ex Cathedra interdicts against the Amiga, everything would be ducky, and I could stop typing such execrable sentences containing words like "execrable." ______________________________________________________________________________ /_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/_____/ |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____| _No dark sarcasm in the classroom|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|___ |____Teachers leave the kids alone__|_____|_____|_____|_bryan@cs.utexas.edu___| ___|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|{ihnp4,seismo,...}!cs.utexas.edu!bryan_ |_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (10/15/88)
Leo, this is probably the nicest critical article I could possibly write. I'm trying to be constructive. I'm not flaming you. I'm not flaming Jerry. Please don't ignore it. Everyone else, if you think I'm being too kind (and by some of the articles out there I'm sure many do) don't try to hammer this in. I'm trying in my own bumbling way to be polite, literate, and diplomatic. I think it's reasonably important. In article <7369@well.UUCP>, ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: > Look, Jerry's just this guy, you know? By a quirk of fate, he > happen to start writing a column in BYTE magazine about his experiences with > computers, and that irritates a lot of us because we "know" he's not > qualified to write about computers. The problem is that his column is sitting under this banner marked "expert advice". It's the *first* column in this "expert advice" section, which tells everyone that he's Byte's first expert. Yes, I know Byte doesn't mean it that way, but that's the situation it's in. Also, Jerry is willing to put up with indignities from his CP/M and MS-DOS based systems I wouldn't sit still for. He has achieved some moderate competence. He's a power user. And he's an expert. We know better, but that's the pulpit he's found himself in. Now, if this power user can't handle the Amiga, if this expert can't deal with it, then the Amiga must be really really hard to use. Harder than the IBM-PCs that his readers struggle with. If just once he would come out and say something like "IBM-PCs are really very poorly designed and unreasonable hard to use. If I hadn't cut my teeth on CP/M machines, which are even more poorly designed and hard to use, and had the aid of some very patient and effective teachers, then I'd never be able to cope with them the way I can. These other machines, the Macintosh, the Amiga, and the Atari ST, are much easier to use because they don't require that you learn arcane commands to use them. They have better designed operating systems because they're younger. They're not perfect, and each have certain strengths and weaknesses. "I have gained a certain amount of understanding into how the IBM-PC works. I'm not going to go through anything like that again, so don't expect me to spend the time learning another machine to the same sort of depth. "I'll push the IBM-PC because it's what I know. I'll push the Mac because it's the machine that requires the least effort to get started in. But take my opinions on anything else with a grain of salt." That's basically the position he's in. It'd only be fair to his readers to let them know this. But apart from an occasional claim that he's a complete neophyte (which is just as untrue as his claiming to be an expert) he doesn't even try. > when a piece of software breaks, we say, "Oh, well obviously the programmer > called FreeMem() on a NULL pointer." You do. I don't. I just say "that program has a bug" and I don't use it again. I might post a message to that effect on the net, and tell people at work to stay away from that particular program. I don't blame the operating system. Neither does Jerry when the IBM-PC is involved. Because he's invested so much time and money (yes, money. I don't think he gets *all* his hardware given to him) in it. He could at least give others the same courtesy. > Jerry does not like the Amiga. He is not obligated to like it. > Just because he got a free 2000DK and has Joanne come running to his rescue > every time he has a problem does not obligate him to say nice things, nor > does it obligate him to keep silent if he doesn't like it. He is obligated to either say nothing about it, or to give his readers some insight into his reasons. He has, let us say, a little power. He therefore has a little responsibility. Either explain to his readers where he's coming from or restrict his column to his areas of competance. I really don't see how that's so hard. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today?
pnelson@antares.UUCP (Phil Nelson) (10/15/88)
In article <7369@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: lots of sensible stuff... |keep in mind that, by pandering to Jerry, you are also pandering to "hundreds |if not thousands" of other computer illiterate people. You'll make the |Amiga easier to use by J. Random Users everywhere. If you can make Jerry |happy, chances are you'll make them happy, too. | | And *THAT* will sell Amigas. | | Did this make sense? | It makes sense to me. |_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ |Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU | \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac |O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") |"Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor -- {ames|pyramid}oliveb!tymix!antares!pnelson | Parallel IQ (the IQ of a group) OnTyme: NSC.P/Nelson POTS: (408)922-7508 | may be easily calculated given Disclaimer: Not officially representing | the IQ of each member - use the McDonnell Douglas Corporation policy. | formula for parallel resistance.
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad Thad Floryan) (10/16/88)
To J. Dow: Partying with Pournelle, eh? Perhaps that's why so many people are having problems interfacing disk drives with the software you wrote? :-) Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad Thad Floryan) (10/16/88)
Gary, J.Dow's insults don't bother me; you should see what transpired on BBS-JC when I posted the following in response to a posting by the VP Marketing of a well-known Amiga 3rd party hardware manufacturer (names masked with "***" (but the correct length) to protect the guilty): ==================== `` Re: the claims made by ******* for the ***** interface (re: "500K per second"), that sounds more like 500 K *BITS* (not bytes) per second. Why? Per the stats accompanying the DiskPerf program, a Sun 3/50 moves data from the disk around 230 Kbytes/second, and writes to the disk around 182 Kbytes/sec. These figures are independently corroborated by various tests published in UNIX REVIEW magazine. Also from UNIX REVIEW (Vol.6, No.9, Sept. 1988) page 96, we see (for reads): Altos 386 Compaq 386/20 NCR Tower IBM PS2/80 IBM PC RT Series 2000 MS/DOS 32/400 SCO Xenix 386 AIX UNIX 16MHz 80386 20 MHz 80386 16MHz 68020 ESDI ESDI ST-506 ESDI 122 Kbytes/s 200Kbytes/s 52 Kbytes/s 54 Kbytes/s 269 Kbytes/s From UNIX REVIEW (Vol. 6, No.7, July 1988, page 96), we get disk reads for the Sun 4/260 in the range 500 KBytes/sec to 700 KBytes/second (depending on the block size). This is with an SMD interface. From the DEC catalogs, the performance of the RA81 on a large VAX is around 230 KBytes/second. Do you still wonder why I doubt *****'s veracity? The point I wanted to make is that many better designed disk subsystems on generally acknowledged "good" computers are NOT capable of performance in the realm that ******* claimed. We're speaking here of SMD, ESDI and Micro-channel systems, with DMA, disk-cacheing, etc. As an example, the Altos has a separate CPU solely to manage the disk. The ONLY way I could believe the (undocumented (e.g. test environment NOT stated, what disk, etc.)) alleged 500KBytes/second would be if the system has multi-tasking shut down, the interface was having its registers read in a busy wait loop, *AND* the disk was capable of providing sustained data transfer onto the bus at 500Kbytes/second. This is NOT the way any sane person is going to use the Amiga for doing anything "real." The claim of 500Kbytes/second implies that a 10MByte FILE can be read into the Amiga in 20 seconds. Or let's make it easier: a 2MByte can be read into RAM in 4 seconds. As I said before, if it CAN do that (read a 2MByte file into RAM in 4 seconds), then this should be touted. ******* stated ***** was NOT going to be demo'ing at AmiEXPO, so who can verify the claim? That Sun 4/260 is the RISC-based SPARC processor at 16MHz rated at 10 MIPS (by Sun) with a highly optimized SMD disk channel, and IT is reading at "only" 500 Kbytes/second. If the Amiga (with *****'s interface) is outperforming that, then why hasn't this been publicized other than here in an "in passing" comment by *******? '' ==================== I mean public replies such as "GOD DAMN YOUR ASS THAD" were posted in direct response to the above. Nothing like objective "Point : CounterPoint" ! :-) Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (10/16/88)
Really, our common foe, Dr. Jerry, isn't really dumb. Occasionally he writes very nice well informed stuff, but it is always somehwere other than in _Byte_ it would seem. Jerry's wife is also quite a bright person, though the column in Byte usually makes it sound like Roberta needs excessive computer hand-holding. In fact, Jer's column in the ibm (yep, fightin words, I know) special issue of Byte is actually pretty good. I guess the thing that annoys me about the Chaos Manor column is that it is hypocritical (for lack of a better word). It seems to me that JP spends a lot of time pretending he's a total klutz, when he must be pretty bright. After all, he's been writing that column long enough and he's rubbed elbows at enough trade shows that he ought to have absorbed some expertise by osmosis by now. What aggrivates me is that JP seems to pan stuff as no good when said software fails to come complete with company president to install it on JP's computer. Case in point was when Phillipe Kahn set up (an apparently pirate copy of) Sprint on Jerry's computer; subsequently Sprint got a good review. Back in the days of CP/M, Jerry had nice things to say when Bill Godbout used to personally fix Jerry's computer. The one other thing that irks me is that JP keeps plugging his books, but that is a different issue. I do like the idea of a goofball (not necessarily JP!) reviewing stuff. If any random goofball can successfully use a given piece of hard/software, then I can probably handle it too. Finally, I do agree with JP that the code wheel is a dorky idea. It seems dumb to have a code wheel on some commodity software like a game. Games are cheap enough (or ought to be) that one might as well buy it, rather than pirating it. In these days of computer viri, there is good incentive to buy a game, rahter than get it from a pirate of unknown origin. .. but then a virus or two have even been known to slip into commercial products. So much for that idea... --Bill our sendmail is acting up, try the address below if you want to flame, or whatever; don't reply to neoucom: ....!lll-winken!scooter!neoucom!impulse!wtm
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (10/17/88)
:We're speaking here of SMD, ESDI and Micro-channel systems, with DMA, :disk-cacheing, etc. As an example, the Altos has a separate CPU solely to :manage the disk. : :The ONLY way I could believe the (undocumented (e.g. test environment NOT :stated, what disk, etc.)) alleged 500KBytes/second would be if the system has :multi-tasking shut down, the interface was having its registers read in a busy A basic flaw in your reasoning, apart from what people have been getting with, say, the A2090 + FFS, is that it isn't the interface that limits disk speed so much as the filesystem. >******* stated ***** was NOT going to be demo'ing at AmiEXPO, so who can >verify the claim? So, anybody out there? I can't... don't have a DMA controller and am going through two levels of hardware externally. -Matt
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (10/17/88)
In article <10062@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com (Thad Thad Floryan) writes: > Also from UNIX REVIEW (Vol.6, No.9, Sept. 1988) page 96, we see (for reads): [list of disks/computers/interfaces/operating systems/and benchmarks elided] > Do you still wonder why I doubt *****'s veracity? I suspect that may be a raw transfer rate for a contiguous file. In any case I would expect the Amiga to perform pretty well in this sort of test because it has way less O/S overhead than UNIX, and a lot better I/O design than MSDOS. The test may have been performed by sending out a bunch of read requests and waiting on all of them, but out of all the systems listed only the Amiga lets you do this easily. It's misleading, perhaps, but not false. I use a program every day that does this sort of performance hack: Matt Dillon's 'DTerm'. Speaking of which, I urge everybody to try it out. It's not packed with features but it's *very* well integrated with Intuition and the console device. Maybe if enough people use it he'll put some of the recent DME hacks into it. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today?
steveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Steve Beats) (10/17/88)
In article <10062@cup.portal.com> version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site cbmvax.UUCP cbmvax!rutgers!rochester!cornell!batcomputer!gould!steinmetz!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com! thad@cup.portal.com (Thad Thad Floryan) writes: > >==================== >`` >Re: the claims made by ******* for the ***** interface (re: "500K per >second"), that sounds more like 500 K *BITS* (not bytes) per second. > >The ONLY way I could believe the (undocumented (e.g. test environment NOT >stated, what disk, etc.)) alleged 500KBytes/second would be if the system has >multi-tasking shut down, the interface was having its registers read in a busy >wait loop, *AND* the disk was capable of providing sustained data transfer >onto the bus at 500Kbytes/second. This is NOT the way any sane person is >going to use the Amiga for doing anything "real." > >The claim of 500Kbytes/second implies that a 10MByte FILE can be read into the >Amiga in 20 seconds. Or let's make it easier: a 2MByte can be read into RAM >in 4 seconds. > >As I said before, if it CAN do that (read a 2MByte file into RAM in 4 >seconds), then this should be touted. > >If the Amiga (with *****'s interface) is outperforming that, then why hasn't >this been publicized other than here in an "in passing" comment by *******? > >'' >==================== >Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ] Thad, 500K per second across a SCSI interface is not tough to do at all. Remember, UNIX machines do all file I/O in 1K chunks which hardly makes good use of a DMA hard drive. The command overhead gets appreciable when you have to do it 1000 times to fetch a MegaByte of data. DMA driven Amiga hard drives show thier best performance when used with FFS, which attempts to coalesce blocks and transfer them all in one go. This REALLY allows DMA drives to run at full tilt. Maybe some (un)official timings of my own will convince you. Setup A2000 2090 DMA HD controller CDC Wren 5 (200Mb) 2 Meg fast RAM FFS partition with 100 cache buffers Even though the partition was >30% full, I managed to get a sustained read rate (at the filing system level) of 700K per second. Peak read rates (when the system was quiet I guess) were clocked at 850K per second. Reading 2Meg directly into memory from the device took 1.8 seconds. Thats BETTER than a Meg a second. Note, that the drive was disconnecting and reconnecting every time a seek was required so there was a fair bit of task switching and interrupt activity going on at the same time too. Now Wren 5's are pretty much the Porsches of hard drives these days. They are outrageously fast! Stepping down to a more modest drive, say an 80Meg Quantum, I could only get 900K per second at the device level. Maybe you should blame the drives, not the controllers. Steve PS. I hope I'm responding to the correct person, the original posting was a little confusing but it looked like Thad originated all of it.
schabacker@frambo.dec.com (Tim, posting for C. Balzer) (10/17/88)
[The braindead SF writers & computer columnists guild proudly presents:] In a recent article Thad Floryan (thad@cup.portal.com) writes: <stuff deleted> >In response to a letter by Fabio Favata (of Italy) extolling the reasons for >the ST being the leading computer in Germany and England (oh really?), our >favorite columnist writes (page 34): ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ NO WAY!!! I doubt that one, too. If there's a "leading" computer in W. Germany, it's the bulk of I*M PC's and their clones. If there's a leading home computer over here, it's the <yuck> C= 64, which sold over one million units. And even if we compare the numbers of Amigas and Atari ST's, there now is a growing lead for the Amiga. BUT: I will honestly confess, that currently more ST's in Germany are used for "serious" work (nix playing games :-D) than Amigas. But that will change, too. >`` Thank you for the report. One reason Atari and Amiga sell in Europe is >because they don't have to pay so much attention to certifications by the >FCC. I do wonder if the FCC's real purpose here is to help the administration >deal with the "too strong" dollar. If so, I have news; they've been wildly >successful. - Jerry '' <rest deleted> Uh, uh. As Thad already pointed out, we've got some pretty strict rules over here, too. In fact, I can't think of something more frustating than trying to get a "FTZ Nummer", a FCC compatible thingie which is issued by our monopolistic telecommunications and postal service. - <CB> -- _ _ / / | \ \ <CB> aka Christian Balzer - The Software Brewery - < < |-< > decwrl!frambo.dec.com!schabacker OR schabacker@frambo.dec.com \ \_ |_/ / CIS: 71001,210 (be brief!), Phone: +49 6150 4151 ------------ Snail: Im Wingertsberg 45, D-6108 Weiterstadt, F.R.G. A mean beta tester at YOUR service.
darin@nova.laic.uucp (Darin Johnson) (10/18/88)
Another "computer-illiterate literate" that comes to mind is Piers Anthony.
In his 'Incarnations of Immortality' series, he ends each book with an
editor's note regarding how death, time, fate, etc. involved him personally.
(actually, kind of interesting in a wierd way)
A topic talked about is his switch-over from typewriter to wordprocessor.
His two major choices were "Captain M" and "Miss Dos". Now his primary
goal was to be able to redefine his keymaps to use his own style of
keyboard layout (it may have been Dvorak, but I seem to recall it was his
own setup). His choice of wordprocessor and computer revolved around
this decision (he eventually bought a DEC Rainbow running CP/M). Now,
I know I could have written a keymap for the Amiga, I doubt that a
novice could have (I suppose if he had heard of Amiga and knew an
Amiga programmer who could write a keymap, the story would have ended
differently).
The nice thing was, he didn't tout himself as an "expert", but went out
and sought advice from people who did call themselves "experts".
It was an interesting insight into the way a computer-novice thinks.
Darin Johnson (...pyramid.arpa!leadsv!laic!darin)
(...ucbvax!sun!sunncal!leadsv!laic!darin)
"All aboard the DOOMED express!"jones@ingr.UUCP (Mark Jones) (10/18/88)
In article <9809@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com writes: > > CRETIN MANOR MAIL drivel deleted > > In *MY* opinion, Pournelle is totally incompetent to be writing ANYTHING > about computers. > > > Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad] Then why to buy the magazine, and continue to pay his salary?
disd@hubcap.UUCP (Gary Heffelfinger) (10/18/88)
From article <2693@ingr.UUCP>, by jones@ingr.UUCP (Mark Jones): > In article <9809@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com writes: >> In *MY* opinion, Pournelle is totally incompetent to be writing ANYTHING >> about computers. >> >> >> Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad] > > Then why to buy the magazine, and continue to pay his salary? Ever heard of libraries? Never buy the damn thing, myself. But, like a particularly grizzly accident on the highway, the eye is drawn to it time and time again. Gary -- Gary Heffelfinger - Not speaking for Clemson Univ. (ISD) uucp: ... !gatech!hubcap!disd inet: disd@hubcap.clemson.edu ---=== Amiga. The computer for the best of us. ===---
ltf@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Lance Franklin) (10/19/88)
In article <361@laic.UUCP> darin@nova.UUCP (Darin Johnson) writes: >Another "computer-illiterate literate" that comes to mind is Piers Anthony. > >A topic talked about is his switch-over from typewriter to wordprocessor. >His two major choices were "Captain M" and "Miss Dos". Now his primary >goal was to be able to redefine his keymaps to use his own style of >keyboard layout (it may have been Dvorak, but I seem to recall it was his >own setup). His choice of wordprocessor and computer revolved around >this decision (he eventually bought a DEC Rainbow running CP/M). Now, >I know I could have written a keymap for the Amiga, I doubt that a >novice could have (I suppose if he had heard of Amiga and knew an >Amiga programmer who could write a keymap, the story would have ended >differently). Actually, you wouldn't have had to...according to the documentation for the Enhancer software (AmigaDOS V1.2), a keymap already exists for the Dvorak keyboard...usa2. You'll find it referred to on page 17, and a quick reference to my original Workbench 1.2 disk reveals it's presence there. So the Amiga, as it comes from the dealer, can Dvorak without a lot of trouble. Lance -- +-------------------------+ +-----------------------------------------------+ | Lance T Franklin | | I never said that! It must be some kind of a | | ltf@killer.DALLAS.TX.US | | forgery...I gotta change that password again. | +-------------------------+ +-----------------------------------------------+
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (10/19/88)
Matt, There's NO question the underlying file system plays a significant part of a system's overall disk performance. I did mention the OS (e.g. UNIX, Xenix, MD/DOS, etc.) in that table (which implies a specific file system). My incredulity stemmed from the so-out-of-line performance compared to other "accepted" systems. In any event, you might not have yet seen the posting from this morning (18-October-1988) in which I included Brick's (from Ronin) initial performance results (after a week of prodding! :-) You haven't been on BBS-JC for several weeks, so you haven't seen my response that they call a news conference and PUBLICIZE these results! It IS news! Just think about it: the Amiga out-disk-performing the "regular" UNIX and MS/DOS systems. I think it's GREAT! As you've seen, I've been one of the most vocal Amiga proselytizers for over 3 years now. I believe it's our "grass roots" DUTY to publicize the Amiga whenever and whereever possible to counteract the Forces of Darkness who masquerade under the guise of "Expert Advisors" in popular publications. As has been noted by a wise sage: "Silence is consent." WE cannot let the technical illiterati confound and confuse people without challenge. Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (10/19/88)
(To: Steve Beats)
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the "unofficial" figures of your disk performance tests.
I also posted earlier today the (preliminary) results (finally documented)
by Brick Ecksten of Ronin re: DMA vs. non-DMA controller tests.
Let's just say that I'm happily astonished! :-)
Seriously!
It's clear now that here's an area in which the Amiga STILL excels (re: disk
and file system performance) and I believe these facts should be publicized
wide and far. It *IS* news!
Life is full of surprises, and this is one instance (in FAVOR of the Amiga)
in which I'm GLAD to have been proven wrong.
I suppose you had to see the original posting (to one of my BBS systems) to
understand why I was incredulous. The posting was made off-handedly in a
manner sugegsting "my interface is faster than yours. Nyah, nyah, nyah." and
I attempted (by posting the stats from UNIX REVIEW and from DEC) to put the
number ("500K per second" (note: neither BYTES nor BITS was specified)) into
perspective.
Thad
Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (10/19/88)
Re: Christian Balzer's posting: Precisely (re: VDE certification, etc.) I know what I'm talking about here. My own products had to meet FCC Rule 15, VDE, etc. and are in use in areas for which certification was mandatory (e.g. US Gov't (even the IRS! :-), Israeli Ministry of Defense, various US "Phone" companies, etc.) If anyone else would like a good reference for RFI design, I use: DIGITAL DESIGN FOR INTERFERENCE SPECIFICATION, by The Keenan Corporation, Library of Congress Catalog Number 82-091179. I consider this book "The BIBLE" for design of commercial electronic equipment. Though I've let my personal subscription expire (for various reasons (just wish Steve Ciarcia would write his stuff someplace ELSE)), one of my hardware products was featured in BYTE, June 1988, page 68, upper right corner, re: the Adalogic Gateway. As a matter of interest, everything regarding that product was done on the Amiga except the PC board layout (had to resort to P-Cad on a highly modified XT clone): my cross-assembler operates on the Amiga, and the manual was done using WordPerfect (with illustrations produced on an H-P plotter direct from Aegis' Draw Plus). Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (10/19/88)
To: Mark Jones I have let my subscription (to BYTE) lapse. The October 1988 issue was the last one on my subscription (which was so screwed up by BYTE that it was extended by them for an additional 4 or 5 years (4 or 5 years ago) due to their screwups. Jerry's columns used to be entertaining, and used to contain some factual information. About 2 or 3 years ago the decline started. I still intend glancing at each month's issue on the newsstands primarily for the Steve Ciarcia CIRCUIT CELLAR column, and will purchase any interesting issue. Overall, in my opinion, BYTE has ceased being "important." Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]
dkhusema@faui44.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Dirk Husemann) (10/19/88)
From article <4970@cbmvax.UUCP>, by daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie): > > The FTZ in Germany is, in general, equally tough, but I'm sure they pass > through political phases just like in the US, so there are certainly > times when it's easier to get stuff through German certification than US. Funny, though, that nearly all those FCC approved modems and phones won't get a FTZ (ZZF) number (= approval). I might be wrong here, but this fact seems to indicate that the FTZ/ZZF testing procedure *is tougher* than the FCC (?). > -- > Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" > {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy > "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!" ------------------ Smile, tomorrow will be worse! -------------- Email: dkhusema@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Or: {pyramid,unido}!fauern!faui44!dkhusema Mail: Dirk Husemann, Aufsess-Str. 19, D-8520 Erlangen, West Germany Phone: (Home) +49 9131 302036, (Business) +49 9131 857908 -- Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here! -- --------------- My opinions are mine, mine, mine ---------------
lphillips@lpami.van-bc.UUCP (Larry Phillips) (10/20/88)
In <10062@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com (Thad Thad Floryan) writes: >Re: the claims made by ******* for the ***** interface (re: "500K per >second"), that sounds more like 500 K *BITS* (not bytes) per second. The following figures were obtained on a CDC Wren IV, embedded SCSI, 300 meg drive attached to a 2090. The drive was empty at the time. Further tests with the drive about 70% full and in use showed a dropoff in the 32K buf read speed to about 650K/sec. .File create/delete: create 16 files/sec, delete 52 files/sec .Directory scan: 102 entries/sec .Seek/read test: 125 seek/reads per second .r/w speed: buf 512 bytes, rd 87381 byte/sec, wr 29454 byte/sec .r/w speed: buf 4096 bytes, rd 291271 byte/sec, wr 187245 byte/sec .r/w speed: buf 8192 bytes, rd 436906 byte/sec, wr 262144 byte/sec .r/w speed: buf 32768 bytes, rd 873813 byte/sec, wr 374491 byte/sec -- If all the MSDos machines were laid end to end, they still wouldn't be as fun as a single Amiga. +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ {ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision,uunet}!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 | +----------------------------------------------------------------+
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/21/88)
in article <10181@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) says: > Re: Christian Balzer's posting: > Though I've let my personal subscription expire (for various reasons (just > wish Steve Ciarcia would write his stuff someplace ELSE)) Circuit Cellar Ink. <poof> Haven't seen it yet, but I sent in MY subscription. Steve's been cut from BYTE, I think they mentioned December '88 as being the last one. Interesting advertising, too. The mail in card from the BYTE-Deck (ok, so I was bored one day) says something along the lines of "a worthy companion to BYTE". The direct mailing, which is the one I responded too, said things more long the lines of what many of us BYTE subscribers have been feeling, don't you wish there was still a magazine that didn't pander to advertisers, but instead covered technical hardware/software issues that you used to get in, say, BYTE circa 1978 (my words, but that was the basic idea). Looks like he's even signed up one or more of the artists that do BYTE covers. I don't like to recommend things sight unseen, but if this isn't a good rag, I think I'll have to stop reading. > As a matter of interest, everything regarding that product was done on the > Amiga except the PC board layout (had to resort to P-Cad on a highly modified > XT clone): my cross-assembler operates on the Amiga, and the manual was done > using WordPerfect (with illustrations produced on an H-P plotter direct from > Aegis' Draw Plus). Did you do schematics on the Amiga? It seems to me that PCB layout is far more mature on the Amiga than schematic capture. There are two PCB layout programs that I've seen (PCLO and ProBoard); haven't used either, Commodore has dedicated stations, and folks to work them, so I never have an excuse to lay out a design on my own. For Amiga schematic capture, ProNet 2.0 is about as good as a few MS-DOS programs I've tried, and certainly faster on an '020 based Amiga. But Neted it ain't. Amiga's beating UNIX as a development tool for any code I write, and WordPerfect has ousted nroff no problem. DNET put the final nail in the coffin of my C. Itoh terminal (used to keep it as a second terminal when I had something going in VT100, but DNET took care of that). I'm waiting for my copy of Professional Page to arive; I had occasion to try it here at work, and it looks great (I already had PageSetter, and it was definitely worth the $100 upgrade). All that's missing is a structured drawing program; I've tried Aegis, but that seems overkill for just banging out a few pretty pictures like system block diagrams or things I'd normally include in papers I write here. > Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad] -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
terry@wsccs.UUCP (Every system needs one) (10/22/88)
In article <1368@neoucom.UUCP>, wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: > > Really, our common foe, Dr. Jerry, isn't really dumb. > Occasionally he writes very nice well informed stuff, but it is > always somehwere other than in _Byte_ it would seem. Jerry's wife > is also quite a bright person, though the column in Byte usually > makes it sound like Roberta needs excessive computer hand-holding. > In fact, Jer's column in the ibm (yep, fightin words, I know) > special issue of Byte is actually pretty good. Just as an amusing aside, the last issue of Analog (an SF magazine from Davis publications) has an article by Roberta Pournelle in it on computers in education now and in the future. The drawing on the title page of the article (one of the science- fact articles in this issue) has a suspiciously familiar computer gracing it... yep, you guessed it, an Amiga 1000, right down to the door on the 1080 monitor! What an amazing (ha ha) sense of humor the editor (Stanley Schmidt) has! | Terry Lambert UUCP: ...{ decvax, ihnp4 } ...utah-cs!century!terry | | @ Century Software OR: ...utah-cs!uplherc!sp7040!obie!wsccs!terry | | SLC, Utah | | These opinions are not my companies, but if you find them | | useful, send a $20.00 donation to Brisbane Australia... | | 'I have an eight user poetic liscence' - me |
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (10/23/88)
Dave Haynie writes:
``
Did you do schematics on the Amiga? It seems to me that PCB layout is far
more mature on the Amiga than schematic capture. There are two PCB layout
programs that I've seen (PCLO and ProBoard); haven't used either, Commodore
has dedicated stations, and folks to work them, so I never have an excuse
to lay out a design on my own. For Amiga schematic capture, ProNet 2.0 is
about as good as a few MS-DOS programs I've tried, and certainly faster
on an '020 based Amiga. But Neted it ain't.
''
Welllll ... back in January 1986 I paid $1,000 for the "privilege" of being
one of the first beta testers of PCLO. That fee entitled me to all the
fixes and updates for one year. At the end of that time, the product was still
NOT functional for real-world PC board layout.
After calling many times long distance (California to Florida), I just couldn't
convince Charles Ben Blish (the author of PCLO (e.g. SoftCircuits, Inc.)) that
the pin spacing on (for example) DB-25 connectors is 0.109". PCLO's smallest
grid snap was to 0.050" Just *TRY* to lay down the footprint of a DB-25
connector, a Molex connector, or other non-0.050" multiple parts. And he never
did release a version that could directly handle more than 2 layer boards.
Another large sum went down the tubes for MicroIllusion's DYNAMIC-CAD. They
never could get that turkey to simply use the Preference settings for the serial
port. Hey, if it ain't broke, DON'T try to fix it. :-(
I use Aegis' Draw Plus for "simple" drawings, but even when that came out I
had to give Bill Volk the proper setup initialization string for use with
Hewlett-Packard Plotters (which is now distributed with the product); I handed
it to him in person at a BADGE meeting back when BADGE was meeting at SRI.
Though the ads for ProNet look good, I'm a victim of "once burned, twice shy."
If I could see it in operation, there's a good chance I'd buy it (re: ProNet)
Sad to say, one thing software purchases for the Amiga has taught me is to
NEVER, EVER buy sight unseen.
I have purchased several hundred products that are totally unusable. I oftimes
glance at the disks wondering if I should just reformat and re-use them, but I
must have some subconscious belief that, software rot and bit decay
notwithstanding, the disks' programs will someday just "fix themselves".
Heal, disk, HEAL THYSELF! :-)
Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]