eric@icus.islp.ny.us (Eric L. Hyman) (12/06/88)
Hmmm This Bit about FTL and copywritten Save files and peoeples replies to it have made me decide to write A note. My name is Eric Hyman, And I like you am A dedicated Amigophile. By trade I am A Programmer, and I am currently trying to MAKE A LIVING (Underline that) by doing software for our favorite machine, I currently have 3 products complete, All are translations of Older 8 Bit Titles done for SSI (Kampfgruppe, Gettysburg and the just released Rebel Charge). I like you Have wished people would put more "oomph" into their amiga translations and as a result have complely re-written the programs I have worked on so that they take advantage of the Amiga. This means I Rewrote the whole thing in C with some Assembly (The origial code was compiled basic ), I redid all The graphics in tha game to make it pleasant to the eye and take advantage of the amiga (Lores 320*160*4 Screen for map 640*40 for text). In addition I added a full blown mouse interface to an originally Keyboard only game, and then threw in some digitized sounds. Copy protection? SSI as a company wants it, me as an author Didn't. Compromise: Manual based protection on Game load, using statistics on the units in the game that are contained on a ready refrence card.(It will be handy when you are playing), In addition, with an assignment or two, the Game will happily reside on a Hardrive, and will run on Any( Cross my Fingers 8) ) Amiga configuration. Now to my points. How many people reading this article can HONESTLY say they have NEVER Copied A disk of Commercial software. Im willing to bet few people will raise their hands and those of you who can honestly do so are to be commended (If your interested, Send me your address and I'll send you one of my games FREE!) How many of you on the other hand have come up with a Rationaliztion for their copying. for example: 1. "I only Pirate copywritten software" 2. "I Don't have enough money to buy all the progrms available, By copying Them I can find the ones I truly like/Use and THEN I go out and buy them" 3. "Software authors/companies make tons of money allready and their stuff is too high priced, I'll copy it till they bring down the price" 4. "With All the bugs in xxx Software, I'll copy and use it untill Im satisfied its done, then Maybe I'll buy it" 5. or perhaps " Well its a straight port, they didn't amigatize it so I won't buy it" (But you'll sure copy it right!) Now granted if your a type 2 or 4, and you Adhere to your reasoning, then Admitedlly this ins't as bad as the other types (Especially those who copy and distibute for the mere fun of it) Now that I've said all that heres some facts: Each one of The projects I have done has taken me AT least 6 Months of Nonstop work putting in 5-16 Hours a day working on it, In my opinion The products I have done, Have been good translations in that They take advantage of the machine, and Others must Agree as they have been reviwed favorably (Sept 88 Computer gaming world), and have placed well in "Best Of" LIsts, which is A compliment to any Wargamme (28th in Amiga worlds poll) And now for All the people who envision me writting this on MY Souped up to the Gils Amiga 2000 with Full slots. Which sits in the corner of my Lavish house on the bay, (Note that was all sarcastic) here are earnings on one of my products: Gettysburg Amiga: (Rated #1 2 years in a row as An 8 Bit title ) Release January '88 (Fumbles for latest ledger sheet ) $2935.45 All of which was paid on A % of sales that is about average for the industry, My first product Kampfgruppe has netted me about double that, over two years and hopfuly Rebel charge will get me Signifigantly more. But Who knows. Currently I am doing nothing but writting for the AMiga, And Things are very tight for me fincancially And I don't know why I'm still doing it cause Im certainly not makeing enough Money! Why Am I not making money? Becase for Every Unit that SSI sells At least 4 Are copied! And From my experience at least 1/2 of those are copied by people who use it, but won't buy it for one reason or another. Well now that I've babbled on for A while,heres the bottome line. Most people program for 2 reasons. 1) Cause the Love to and 2) To make money. And If they aren't going to make a decent amount of money they aren't going to do it for very long. So instead of whining and complaing about how this company won't write for the machine, or that company won't, or another won't do A better job. BUY SOME SOFTWARE and give them incentive. its A rule in this industry, Whichever market genrates strongs sales is gonna be where the Development dollars go, and if there aren't enough sales, there isn't going to be a push in that market. Any way you cut it, using an Boot leg copy of a program is wrong. And as long as you try to exaplin it your going to hurt the people who write it, and Some what less directly yourself. And one last though. I've Done everything I though I had to for A Succesfull amiga product. And so far have been very disappointed by the results. So either I'm doint something wrong r a lot of people are talking out of two corners of their mouths when Stating their excuses for pirating. And quite Frankly If I didn't like this silly machine So damn much I doubt I'd still be working on it! (My pocket book would much rather sell over 100000 versions of a messy dos program!)(Comments?) Now beofre you Flame me and we start anohter Holy war, Let me Just ask that you read this again and think about the points have made, and then if you still disagre respond. Also My apologies if this a bit Disjointed, But the Last FTL bashing letter got Under My skin and I wanted to get this written and off before I lost the urge to write it. Eric Hyman (Currently Un-employed while doing doing Amiga Wargames ) Eric Hyman | ...att \ | boulder \ eric @ icus | talcott !icus!eric | pacbell / | sbcs / -- Eric Hyman | ...att \ | boulder \ eric @ icus | talcott !icus!eric | pacbell / | sbcs /
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/07/88)
(Added comp.misc to the newsgroups; flame me if you must, I thought it relavent to other than Amiga system owners). In article <555@icus.islp.ny.us> eric@icus.UUCP () writes: > >Hmmm This Bit about FTL and copywritten Save files and >peoeples replies to it have made me decide to write A note. > >My name is Eric Hyman, And I like you am A dedicated Amigophile. >By trade I am A Programmer, and I am currently trying >to MAKE A LIVING (Underline that) by doing software for our favorite machine... ....... Yes, and so am I (a programmer by trade; we do conferencing software). >Compromise: Manual based protection on Game load, using >statistics on the units in the game that are contained on a ready >refrence card.(It will be handy when you are playing), In addition, >with an assignment or two, the Game will happily reside on a Hardrive, >and will run on Any( Cross my Fingers 8) ) Amiga configuration. Now that I can live with -- but that's not what FTL has done! >Now to my points. > >How many people reading this article can HONESTLY say they have NEVER >Copied A disk of Commercial software. I can't say that... but what I CAN say is: I've never copied a disk of non-crippled commercial software. This is mainly due to (1) my sense of fair play, and (2) I'm not a thief. I HAVE copied crippled software (CPd things), mainly to see if they'll even BOOT on the hardware we use! This is a relatively recent phenomena, and is inspired by the $250 worth of TRASH DISKS that I have (that once did boot, and did hold games of various descriptions). These are programs that I paid for, and should be able to use, but fail to load on all our present hardware due to copy protection. >Im willing to bet few people will raise their hands and those of you >who can honestly do so are to be commended (If your interested, >Send me your address and I'll send you one of my games FREE!) Got a PC Version? (or wait a few months for us to get an Amy; hurry up Commodore -- we want one of the rumored next-generation machines!) :-) >How many of you on the other hand have come up with a Rationaliztion for >their copying. for example: > >2. "I Don't have enough money to buy all the progrms available, > By copying Them I can find the ones I truly like/Use and > THEN I go out and buy them" How about "I don't have money to throw down the drain on copy protected software that will either self-destruct or be useless when I buy a faster (but still compatible by everyone else's standards) computer, and I refuse to provide economic incentive to manufacturers who deliberately cripple their products and limit their scope of usefulness." >4. "With All the bugs in xxx Software, I'll copy and use > it untill Im satisfied its done, then Maybe I'll buy it" This one is valid today too -- gawd, I wish it wasn't. Look in comp.unix.microport sometime; their 80286 Unix release hasn't even deserved the label "beta" until recently. Once again, this particular cause of copying is simply protection of the user's interests (having been ripped off once too many times). I got burned on that one (Microport) to the tune of nearly $700! This for software that didn't (and from what I am told still doesn't) meet the requirements that I gave the salesperson when I placed the initial order -- almost two years after the initial purchase. IMHO: Copy Protection counts as a bug in my book; one that I _might_ be able to live with if it stays the heck out of my way. Intrusive, invasive, or simply draconian CP measures count as a fatal bug. >Now granted if your a type 2 or 4, and you Adhere to your reasoning, >then Admitedlly this ins't as bad as the other types (Especially those >who copy and distibute for the mere fun of it) > > Gettysburg Amiga: (Rated #1 2 years in a row as An 8 Bit title ) > Release January '88 > > (Fumbles for latest ledger sheet ) > > $2935.45 >All of which was paid on A % of sales that is about average for the industry, >My first product Kampfgruppe has netted me about double that, over >two years and hopfuly Rebel charge will get me Signifigantly more. >But Who knows. Currently I am doing nothing but writting for the AMiga, Gawd are these real numbers... $2935 looks TERRIBLE, but is it? I mean, how many copies have been sold? If you're only making $1 a copy, you've sold nearly 3k copies. If you're only getting $1 a copy, you're getting RIPPED OFF. > Why Am I not making money? Becase for Every Unit that SSI sells > At least 4 Are copied! And From my experience at least 1/2 of those > are copied by people who use it, but won't buy it for one > reason or another. If you have 500,000 machines out there, and only 3000 sales, you haven't even dented the market. Or someone has sold/copied 30,000 units and only told you about 3,000. How does SSI come up with the 4:1 ratio? I simply can't believe that half of these people would have paid money for the package if they couldn't pirate it -- it flies directly in the face of what I have experienced. My experience (7 years in the business and counting) is this: o Business people copy useful, productive things. They learn how to use them by buying the second-hand manuals in a bookstore (ie: using Lotus 1-2-3, etc). Lawyers, incidentially, seem to be the worst offenders (although this may be just wild ranting :-). They do this because they don't like paying $500 a copy for Lotus; most are FULLY aware that what they're doing is illegal, but won't stop as long as the risk of getting caught is comparable to smoking a joint in your home. o Kids copy games. These kids either (1) can't afford the game, and thus wouldn't buy it anyways, or (2) have to have everything, and once again couldn't buy it (who could afford EVERYTHING). o Adults copy games. Well, sometimes. But we're more likely to BUY the darn thing if it really is fun and works -- but "fun" and "works" means "keepa you hands off my multitasking capabilities!" to many people, or "keepa you boot disk write-protected!" or "keepa youself installed on this-here fixed disk drive." These adults will REFUSE (like I do) to buy crippleware. Note that among business software, even though the copying is RAMPANT, the manufacturers are ALL removing copy protection. Why? Because the market has TOLD THEM, in NO uncertain terms, that it WILL NOT purchase copy protected software. All it takes is ONE company that doesn't cripple their products -- and all of the cripple-ware firms' business dries up overnight. > So instead of whining and complaing about how this company won't write > for the machine, or that company won't, or another won't do > A better job. BUY SOME SOFTWARE and give them > incentive. its A rule in this industry, Whichever market > genrates strongs sales is gonna be where the Development dollars go, > and if there aren't enough sales, there isn't going to be a push in that > market. Crippled, copy-protected software might have been acceptable in the days of the C=64 and single floppy disk drives (where a reset was REQUIRED all of the time!). It's rediculous, unacceptable, and a disqualifying misfeature for software in today's environment, especially on a machine such as the Amiga! I will buy software -- IF AND ONLY IF I can: 1) Use my machine fully, given adaquate resources. This means that anything that "takes over" and locks me out of multitasking is an immediate "outski". Requiring 2M of RAM to play game <X> while compiling my latest project is ok, even slowing the game (or allowing me to specify who gets priority) is ok, but killing multitasking or (worse) requiring a reboot/power cycle to leave is NOT ok. (I'll qualify that -- for a truly real-time simulation where timing is absolutely _critical_, I would think that disabling multitasking would be ok... but I should be able to select "nasty" mode at will. Even in this case you can still let me resume my other work when I exit the game from some menu or prompt). A system RESET as a way to leave ANY program is a horrible kludge! This current trash comes from _good_ programmers? (I'll save for a seperate comment at a different time my opinion of an operating system that can't keep track of and free at exit the resources a process has requested and/or used.... :-) 2) Copy it to prevent the diskettes from being destroyed or infected by any form of virus or other nasty (including my coke bottle on the desk which might tip over). This includes putting it on my fixed disk "n" times. (Why? Do you do development on your gear? Device drivers perhaps? How many times have you accidentally destroyed your disk pack and needed those backup tapes? I refuse to lose $1000 worth of software when my disk drive fails; that's why I make backups). 3) Run the package on my equipment, and ANY EQUIPMENT COMPATIBLE WITH THE SAME STANDARD that I buy later on. This last point is very important -- those games referenced earlier probably still DO load and run on a 4.77 Mhz PC.... but we use 16 Mhz '386s here now to work and play! Along the same line, timing-based programs are definately out -- haven't game writers learned how to use a timer channel yet? Sheesh -- any reasonable system these days has interrupt-driven timer control; usually multiple channels are available! There is NO EXCUSE for games that run on an Amiga 1000 but fail on a 2000 with a 68020 board, for example. Those of you who program and feel otherwise are urged to take a good programming class -- you need it. 4) Have some reasonable recourse if it doesn't work reasonably well or at all, including returning the product for a FULL refund. If I can't get that, and I can't manage to evaluate it in any way first, it's not worth the risk. (Question: Would you buy a car or computer without ever SEEING it? By just looking at pictures in some catalog? How big of a fool do these publishers think we are?) > I've Done everything I though I had to for A Succesfull amiga > product. And so far have been very disappointed by the > results. So either I'm doint something wrong r a lot of > people are talking out of two corners of their mouths when > Stating their excuses for pirating. And quite > Frankly If I didn't like this silly machine So damn much > I doubt I'd still be working on it! (My pocket > book would much rather sell over 100000 versions of a messy > dos program!)(Comments?) We (as software authors and publishers) need to do the following: 1) Inform computer clubs and other "swapping places" that piracy is no longer acceptable -- and ACT ON IT. Yes, this means raids if necessary, and perhaps stronger laws (or at least an incentive to enforce them). How do we do this? Join organizations (or form one) such as the SPA, and INSIST that this be the agenda of these organizations. After all, these associations are in existance to help publishers and authors -- let's see some action rather than just strong words. 2) Publishers have to stop slapping people in the face by putting these silly "copy protection" schemes on their disks. Face it -- anything you can protect, a clever person can pick the lock on. All this does is force me to steal either TWO pieces of software (since I won't pay for software that's crippled -- and that ALWAYS includes the unlocking toys), or USE NONE OF THEM. Ok, PUBLISHERS, EITHER decision that I make at this point gets you nothing -- if you'd be reasonable you'd also gain some of my cash! The real software-buying world has already decided that copy protection is unacceptable; when will you catch on? 3) If you MUST MUST MUST hold something over a purchasers' head, how about a "burn in the name" scheme? No, it's not airtight, but it DOES stop casual copying 100% (give it away, sure, but your name is on it!). It also has a cost -- one computer at each possible point of sale, and a "special" serialization disk for the computer software store to use. Yes, it would take programming skill and an investment at the point of sale, yes, it would not be foolproof, but it wouldn't prevent the package's use either. This is a free market. Someone ought to fill the very real need for products that aren't crippled like this. Is anyone out there (besides us) in the small-systems software publishing business listening? Btw: My relavent experience: We publish and write Unix and Xenix software, as well as some DOS material. NONE of our products has or ever will be copy protected, although one of them does have the owner's name "burned" into it. That was the only concession I would make to the "protect the damned thing" people. Yeah, these are the views of the company. We had a nice long discussion on this topic before deciding to "burn names" on one of our products. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
hugh@censor.UUCP (Hugh Gamble) (12/08/88)
Don't call them pirates, just say thieves. Back when I was a kid, I saved up all my money from my first summer job to by a computer, and I'm afraid to say, did steal copies of commercial software on quite a few occaisions. I still occaisonally find myself breaking the exact letter of some of the stranger license agreements from time to time, but I no longer steal software, let anyone copy S/W I've bought (that can be a hard one) or turn a blind eye to anyone who steals S/W. I stopped copying S/W because as I grew up I learned that it was theft and why. Some people never grow up, but you can still teach people *why* something is wrong & who it hurts. I also have money now, but that's because there are things I want that cost money, so I work to get them. I have also worked to put myself in the enviable position where the things I do to earn money are things that, for the most part, I enjoy. It tends to be the case that the things that make money and the things that are fun, are different. If you were to switch from programming Amiga war games to IBM mainframe business applications, or (heaven forbid :-) selling them, you could make lots of $. I'm afraid it's a fact of life that you have to compromise, and sometimes divide your time between things with a low fun/high $ attribute and high fun/low $ stuff. I don't buy computer war games, but from your description of yours would suggest them to people I know who do. Mostly I buy productivity and creative tools & I pay what it costs to get ones that come closest to filling my needs. Sometimes this is a lot of money, but of course even here only a small part of it goes to the programmers. You have my best wishes in trying to make a living doing what you love. Don't compromise more than you have to. Sure the Amiga is technically OK, but what really makes me love it is the amazing mass of dedicated, fanatic romantics (any on the net? Nahh :-) who have clustered around it. With a little serious juggling, even I can connect with the real world. P.S. Should I inject something here about $C00000 RAM just to get back to the regular flavour of this group :-)
BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (12/08/88)
GET YOUR FIRE EXSTINGUISHERS READY - QUICK! Now all that talking about programming clean and orderly and all those people dooming games authors for taking over the machine and copyprotecting their games made me really angry. Let me get back to the start when the Amiga just appeared on the market and every C64-Kid in Germany dreamed about the new machines... On the sixty-four incredible demos introducing pirated software made their journey thru Germany (and overseas) in less than two days. In fact the demos were the really important think about the disks, not the software which was often not worth copying. The goal was always being the "fastest spreader in the world" and for that the demo had to be the best the computer world had ever seen. When the price for an Amiga 1000 dropped rapidly here in Germany all those guys bought this new amazing machines. The first joy whith playing around with windows and the few existing demos soon faded away and the first frustration came when the graphics were SOO SLOW when AmigaBasic was used and it was SO AWFULLY COMPLICATED opening a window and reading the mouse position. So something like "F*CK the OS" and "The Amiga sure is fast if only this stupid grapics library weren't in the way!" was debated thru the "Szene" as the hackers are called here in Germany. A frantic search for graphics registers, sound and sprite registers began. Copper and Blitter lost their magic touch when the long awaited hardware manual was available in Germany. Speaking of myself, I too was full of joy when my first Text scrolled smoothly over the screen without ANY flickering that was ALWAYS present when ScrollRaster or things like that were at work. And then there was digitized sound, of course. An awfully fantastic thing when you remember the tries on the C64 which of course nobody had dreamed of when the C64 was introduced but never were a good quality. The first intros made their way with copies of DPaint, Marble Madness and Marauder. And, as NO fast and impressive games came from overseas, demos (which would never be shown at a Badge Killer Contest) expanded to the first fast games with lots of digitized explosions, cries and rock music. America? Nothing! Why? I guess because not profitable enough. German kids didn't know about how to sell software, so german software firms made $$$ with cheap software and up till today make. Just think of Emerald Mine. You don't think it's pure charity why it's so cheap. The guy from SSI must have experienced that! So crackers and software pirates turned to programmers overnight. But none of those had ever hacked on Unix when the standard computer equipment of a school was a Pet 2001 (Relly!). So no one can blame those guys for not using multitasking. And - you might believe it or not - there are programmers here who don't know C - they open windows in Assembler, do their switch(GetMsg)... in Assembler. And of course those guys tried to understand what MFM and SYNC was on the Amiga - The C64 had known lots of FastLoaders that loaded 10 times or faster or more without any additional hardware. So naturally they investigated copy protections, wrote boot loaders and boot block intros (there were no viruses then). Multitasking? Why? Do a Supervisor() and a MOVE #$7FFF,INTENA and WHOOSH - up and away! Memory expansions? Much too expensive! Hard disk? Never had one on my 64. Programming was done like that: Use your seka, load the DPaint picture along with sound in memory and save the whole thing on disk as an object file. Sure there were great programs from USA that were nice to play (Shanghai for example) but Shoot-em-ups were terrible when using the OS. Now I think this mentality still lasts on today and when i think about it I think it's right. I really HATE software companies which print on their package: "This software wants 1 Meg at least". Think it over: program in C => 50 KBytes, graphics (10 pictures, each about 20KBytes) => 200KBytes, sound (those samles drain memory, say 10K for each of about 10 samples => 100K, then... playfield allocation, if youre using double buffering with 3 planes for each playfield => 2*6*8K= about 100K there you arrive at 450 KBYTES. Just an example. Now, what does your Amiga show memory when it's booted up? Don't forget to switch on your external drives and harddisk, the buffers eat A LOT of memory! Well multitasking. It's great. I love it. I'll never buy the Archimedes because he hasn't any. I write device drivers. But: A friend programs on a game and he needs ANY of the 512 KBytes a standard Amiga has got. So I wrote im a simple DOS that's reading directly from disk without trackdisk stuff. He really needs the memory. I guess FLT really needs the memory for DM. Starglider II wouldn't exist if they used MT. Don't flame about things you never experienced yourselves. If your game is a neat little strategy game where the programm waits most of it's time for the mouseclick of the user, ok. If your software is a text editor that waits for user input, use MT but please use Assembler for your scrolling routines. Look at all those WYSIWYG programs that force you to take a coffea break waiting for their insert or remove text to complete. What do I hear you say? WE NEED a 32bit processor. We need the Lucas board. I hate saying this but you are no bit more intelligent than a I*M clone user that cries over Wait states and Norton benchmarks. Learn to program time efficently. The multitasking of the Amiga IS GREAT when it's used properly. And it's great loading a game from Harddisk. But if you are programming much or if you have big databases on your harddisk somewhen you will reach that dreaded requester saying "DISK FULL". I also don't understand why you want to play ASTERIODS or SPACE INVADERS along with doing work on your AMI? Using Amiga-N or Amiga-M as a sort of Boss Key??? No, come on. If I want to play games I play games and that with full concentration. If I have work to do, I don't need the enemy waiting on the back screen. Copy protection. Useless anyway. No problem for skilled crackers. But there IS a reason for "copyprotection". Jez San said it. When you need all memory you write your own loading routines. Dos uses SO MUCH memory for disk buffers. Intuition eats memory. Tracksdisk? Can't be used if all else is switched off. (BTW you gain impressive speed increases). Harddisk? Possible perhaps. But taking over the machine AND loading with dos - FORGET IT. So it's more or less a "all or nothing" question. And personally I prefer a fast game that boots at once from disk and loads in 15seconds over a game that needs 1 Meg, makes your drive seek endlessly between track 40 and track 79 and makes you sleepy while you play. Games are for everybody. Not just for professionals who have a 80Meg harddisk, 4 Megabytes of RAM and a 68030 acceleration board got from their organization. Most of you active networkers are obviously that type! Take time to think about all those kids. It's easier to turn your machine on and insert the game disk than to read a large manual of how to transfer the game to your workbench and that contain JUST ONE CLI command? Even the standard bootblock is copyrighted (i have heard) so what? Ok, this has got a bit lengthy but I simply HAD TO STATE MY OPINION to all that talk that goes on now for days. I know for sure you out there curse me for such sacrilegs about MT and 'pure programming' but you should never mix serious software with arcade games. Do you think Arcade machines multitask? (Oh great, I'll put this in my .signature!) IF YOU READ SO FAR, YOU MIGHT PACK AWAY YOUR EXSTINGUISHER AND GET YOUR FLAME THROWER READY! @ @ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ===V=== "This message still Beta testing - don't blame me for bugs!" // !^! -Martin (BRENNER_M@DULRUU51.BITNET) Uni Ulm/F.R.Germany \X/AMIGA ^ ^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- %SYSTEM-W-POWERFAIL, power failure occurred
jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) (12/08/88)
In article <2363@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > I've never copied a disk of non-crippled commercial software. This > is mainly due to (1) my sense of fair play, and (2) I'm not a > thief. > I HAVE copied crippled software (CPd things), mainly to see if > they'll even BOOT on the hardware we use! This is a relatively > recent phenomena, and is inspired by the $250 worth of TRASH DISKS > that I have (that once did boot, and did hold games of various > descriptions). These are programs that I paid for, and should be > able to use, but fail to load on all our present hardware due to > copy protection. I'll get to this later. > How about "I don't have money to throw down the drain on copy protected > software that will either self-destruct or be useless when I buy a faster > (but still compatible by everyone else's standards) computer, and I refuse to > provide economic incentive to manufacturers who deliberately cripple their > products and limit their scope of usefulness." > IMHO: Copy Protection counts as a bug in my book; one that I _might_ be able > to live with if it stays the heck out of my way. Intrusive, invasive, > or simply draconian CP measures count as a fatal bug. > How does SSI come up with the 4:1 ratio? I simply can't believe that half > of these people would have paid money for the package if they couldn't > pirate it -- it flies directly in the face of what I have experienced. Not me, that's a very conservative ratio. > All it takes is ONE company that doesn't cripple their products -- and all > of the cripple-ware firms' business dries up overnight. Yep, even though they may be the better software company... > Btw: My relavent experience: > We publish and write Unix and Xenix software, as well as some DOS > material. NONE of our products has or ever will be copy protected, Errr... How could you copy protect Unix software in the first place? Well, Let me make a few points. The reasons for copy protection are not because companies are greedy; the users created the problem. You can't complain about your problems, when there are people out there who get a kick out of cracking a game and spreading it. That 4:1 Ratio is very conservative, probably because the Amiga community is mostly honest, productive users. In the ST market, I would say the ratio is more like 10:1. A neighboor with an ST in my home town had EVERY single software title ever released. He called himself a collector; 90% of his stuff was pirated. You gave many reasons why companies should not copy-protect software, now how about some ideas in how to stop piracy. -- What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (12/08/88)
In article <5866@louie.udel.EDU> BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu invites huge flames for content and the wrath of English instructors for form: >But: A friend programs >on a game and he needs ANY of the 512 KBytes a standard Amiga has got. >So I wrote im a simple DOS that's reading directly from disk without >trackdisk stuff. He really needs the memory. I guess FLT really needs >the memory for DM. Starglider II wouldn't exist if they used MT. >Don't flame about things you never experienced yourselves. He's missing the point here. Some people have enough memory to walk and chew gum at the same time. That's why they bought the Amiga, because it has a grown up OS. If a program takes all of memory, why not store some stuff on disk instead, or even (gosh) use segmented loading? >If I want >to play games I play games and that with full concentration. If I have work >to do, I don't need the enemy waiting on the back screen. He dares to speak for all of us! Sounds like a pretty intense guy to me. Myself, I like to work for an hour, take a short break, then work some more. Just like studying. Sean -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet *** Who sometimes never learns. {backbone site|rutgers|uunet}!ukma!sean *** U of K, Lexington Kentucky, USA ..where Christian movies are banned. *** ``You gotta love that!''
hbo@sbphy.ucsb.edu (Howard B. Owen) (12/08/88)
In article <5866@louie.udel.EDU>, BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes... >GET YOUR FIRE EXSTINGUISHERS READY - QUICK! > . . > (Long and interesting message advocating taking over the machine at >a low level in order to optimize execution for shoot-em-up games deleted) This message underlines the dilemma Commodore faces in trying to crack the business and education markets. Folks that value fast scrolling and smooth animation over multitasking and hard disks make up a large proportion of the market for the Amiga 500. These are the same people (and their younger brothers and sisters) who made the C-64 such a successful computer in its time. They may not buy much software, but their hardware budgets seem adequate to keep the assembly lines at CBM humming. Brenner's point that most of the comp.sys.amiga folks are professionals with larger than average Amiga hardware budgets is well taken. Personally, I feel like I fall through a crack in the middle of CBM's marketing strategy. I like my hard disk and extra RAM, but I want to run the fast games too. I don't want to have to give up one for the other, but it seems that in many cases they are mutually exclusive.
mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) (12/08/88)
> *Excerpts from ext.nn.comp.sys.amiga: 7-Dec-88 Re: Software Development An..* > *BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BI@cun (8028)* > Sure there were great programs from USA that were nice to play (Shanghai > for example) but Shoot-em-ups were terrible when using the OS. Now I > think this mentality still lasts on today and when i think about it > I think it's right. I really HATE software companies which print on > their package: "This software wants 1 Meg at least". but I want a piece of software that will cooperate with the rest of my system and won't break when the OS is updated. I am willing to expand my machine's capabilities to meet the needs of such software. I won't run broken software, no matter what it does or how necessary it may be. I delete it from my disks. > *Excerpts from ext.nn.comp.sys.amiga: 7-Dec-88 Re: Software Development An..* > *BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BI@cun (8028)* > Copy protection. Useless anyway. No problem for skilled crackers. > But there IS a reason for "copyprotection". Jez San said it. > When you need all memory you write your own loading routines. > Dos uses SO MUCH memory for disk buffers. Intuition eats memory. > Tracksdisk? Can't be used if all else is switched off. The operating system is there for a reason. I won't use any piece of software that is so arrogant it thinks it owns the machine, and I'm sure most of the readers of this group feel the same way. Perhaps you should learn to program efficiently using the resources the operating system provides. --M -- Michael Portuesi / Information Technology Center / Carnegie Mellon University INET: mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu / BITNET: mp1u+%andrew.cmu.edu@cmccvb UUCP: ...harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!mp1u+ "I'm very sorry, Master, but that WAS the backup system" -- Slave
rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rick Francis Golembiewski) (12/08/88)
>frustration came when the graphics were SOO SLOW when AmigaBasic was used >SO AWFULLY COMPLICATED opening a window and reading the mouse >position. So something like "F*CK the OS" and "The Amiga sure is fast >if only this stupid grapics library weren't in the way!" Hold on a sec, yes AmigaBasic is SLOW, but it iis EASY to open windows from AmigaBasic all you have to do is say "Window window-id [,[title][,[rectangle][,[type][,screen-id]]]]"- pg 8-158 of the Amiga BASIC manual (you know the book that comes with EVERY amiga, since way back when 1.1 was around [ie like when I bought my A1000...]). However, opening a window from ASSEMBLY, with out a manual! HA, never, you might as well try poking into random memory to try an change a bit map. I'm sorry, ANYTHING is easier to work with then assembly, assembly is faster, but is VERY COMPLECATED. >And - you might believe it or not >- there are programmers here who don't know C - they open windows in >Assembler, do their switch(GetMsg)... in Assembler. And of course those >guys tried to understand what MFM and SYNC was on the Amiga Look, if they are good enough programmers to understand the window system from assembly then I should think that they would be good enough to get Multi-Tasking to work also. > But: A friend programs >on a game and he needs ANY of the 512 KBytes a standard Amiga has got. >So I wrote im a simple DOS that's reading directly from disk without >trackdisk stuff. He really needs the memory. I guess FLT really needs >the memory for DM. Starglider II wouldn't exist if they used MT. >Don't flame about things you never experienced yourselves. Ok, but if your friend wanted to go commercial, then he should CHECK that it is necessary to kill AmigaDOS, after all most amigas have 1MB or more so any game designed NOW should take this in to account. If I had a 9MB Amiga I certainly bet that DM would not use all the memory, and it would still clobber multi-tasking... Is There any reason why StartGlider II couldn't have an option to ALLOW multi-tasking? Granted it may slow things down and ruin smooth update if you are multi-tasking something on a regular amiga, but what about when the Amiga 3000 with 25Mhz (33Mhz?) 68030 comes along, I bet that StarGlider II would not even come close to useing up all of CPU cycles, not to mention if SGII is DEPENDANT on CPU timing then it will be unplayable on a faster machine... > What do I hear you say? WE NEED a 32bit processor. We >need the Lucas board. I hate saying this but you are no bit more intelligent >than a I*M clone user that cries over Wait states and Norton benchmarks. >Learn to program time efficently. Well I for one ordered the LUCAS project, but now that I have that extra power, wouldn't it be nice if stuff will let me actually MultiTask? By 'Learn to program time efficently' I assume that you mean program things to be AS FAST AS POSSIBLE (or program in assembly), however programming in C is a lot more time efficinet in the sense that if you can create programs faster, and it is easier to divide the work among more then 1 person since C's functions make excelent modules... > I also don't understand why you >want to play ASTERIODS or SPACE INVADERS along with doing work on your AMI? >Using Amiga-N or Amiga-M as a sort of Boss Key??? No, come on. If I want >to play games I play games and that with full concentration. If I have work >to do, I don't need the enemy waiting on the back screen. Typical scenario: I have about a Meg of files to download, I start up kermit, now I can A> sit and watch the blocks count up, or B> start up a game (or even an editor/data base if you really must do work). Which would you prefer? >Copy protection. Useless anyway. No problem for skilled crackers. >But there IS a reason for "copyprotection". Jez San said it. >When you need all memory you write your own loading routines. >Dos uses SO MUCH memory for disk buffers. Intuition eats memory. >Tracksdisk? Can't be used if all else is switched off. Once again you are assuming that ALL amiga have but 512K (so c.100K is a lot), however if you've got 1MB (as most amigas do) then you don't really worry about the memory intuition takes, because it is so useful. And Besides custom Loader DOES NOT IMPLY uncopyable (For Example Rocket Ranger has a fast loader and can be backed up using AmigaDos's Diskcopy), no copy protection is INTENSIONALLY DONE TO STOP COPYING. The problem is that copy protection is a pain because it stops people from having a backup, moving games to harddrives (where they'll load in 15 seconds, rather then seeking endlessly between track 40 and track 79). >Harddisk? Possible perhaps. But >taking over the machine AND loading with dos - FORGET IT. So it's more or >less a "all or nothing" question. And personally I prefer a fast game that >boots at once from disk and loads in 15seconds over a game that needs >1 Meg, makes your drive seek endlessly between track 40 and track 79 and >makes you sleepy while you play. Hold a sec, you can have custom drivers for a drive under DOS (after all that what FFS is at this point) and you could start your game as a task with incredible (ie 128) priority [which BTW will give it priority over system function, which is why ChangeTaskPri recommends a range from -5 to +5]. Well I've gone on a bit myself, but I can't see using the resource requirement as reason for copy protection/killing Multitasking. After all the MOST processor/memory intensive program I have (Sculpt 3D) still allows multi-tasking, (although it effectively takes all the processor cycles of a regular amiga), so asking Joe's Arcade game to at least allow Multi Tasking isn't really asking all that much... +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Disclaimer: Me? Post That, impossible I never post anything... | | TypetoYouLater(Everyone); --> "functional Good bye".... | | Rick Golembiewski [ Pronunciation is half the Battle, spelling the other] | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (kevin lee smathers) (12/08/88)
> By trade I am A Programmer, and I am currently trying > to MAKE A LIVING (Underline that) by doing software for our favorite machine, > ... > Copy protection? SSI as a company wants it, me as an author > Didn't. Compromise: Manual based protection on Game load, using > ... > How many people reading this article can HONESTLY say they have NEVER > Copied A disk of Commercial software. ^^^^^^ > Pirated? ...pirating is a persistent plague on the creative community, and I strongly support making it as uncomfortable as possible for people to use illegally obtained copies of software. On the other hand, there are many ways of making it difficult to copy programs shy of selling cripple-ware. Infocom has long had the practice of making their adventures difficult to copy by including information in their game supplies which are neccessary to the completion of the game. Programs like FTL's Dungeon Master are practically useless without the accompaniment of the spell symbol explanations. Using spells and magic items, spell components, tables of attributes versus levels versus kill ratio's, text commands, etc. each have an impact of making the game "difficult to copy." If those tables are copyrighted then they can't be legally distributed as files through bulletin boards. Another protection scheme might try to predict user responses: Circumstance 1: User is playing game, wants to check progress of download really quickly. Continues with game. So if the game is realtime check to see if it is also the front most screen. IF it isn't and hasn't been for more that 2 seconds, go to sleep and refuse to wake up for more than 5 minutes, satisfying circumstance 2. Circumstance 2: User is playing game, some other process finishes. User flips to the other page and fools with new data. Typically we expect this foolery to take at least 5 minutes, so the only user that this sleep procedure will really annoy is the person who is going to another screen to look up a command which is in a file copy of the manuals. This way we don't have to disable multitasking just to maintain program security. Make the manuals long (Starglider includes a small story booklet. The story is enjoyable to read and gives insight to the play of the game. It will be much harder for someone to pirate an entire booklet than it is to copy one command sheet.) Provide good support. Say you have an RPG where the monster files can be upgraded by phone, from a dial-in BBS. Only registered users have access to the BBS, so anyone who hasn't purchased the game gets really lousy support. (This isn't really as expensive as it sounds.) Make it a multiplayer game. Give each game a serial number, and have it refuse to play against another player whose software has the same serial number. (This is really the easiest way to protect games that *do* use modems to enhance play. After all, who are you going to be playing with other than friends? And who would you be most likely to give copies of your software to?) My point is that there are many many alternatives to selling me something that I really can't use. If I can't copy it on to my harddrive then I'll feel cheated every time I have to reboot just to play it (and wait for it to load.) If the game is really so simple that there is nothing that can be put in the manual which is neccessary for the game (w/o simply asking the user to retype a word from it) then it probably is too simple for me anyway. And even if it is, YOU CAN ask for that word. Ah just some thoughts. I do Not play with my Amiga for a living. -Sullivan Segall _____________________________________________________________ /V\ Sully set the example: to fly without moving. We shall ' learn to soar on wings of thought. And the student will surpass the teacher. To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _____________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com
davidg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (David Guntner) (12/08/88)
From article <1334@leah.Albany.Edu>, by jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek): > Well, Let me make a few points. The reasons for copy protection are not > because companies are greedy; the users created the problem. You can't > complain about your problems, when there are people out there who get a > kick out of cracking a game and spreading it. Sounds like all the more reason to NOT copy protect. A company spends all that time and money designing a copy protection scheme that a dedicated pirate will just eventually break anyway, and that frustrates (sp?) the ligitimate buyer. So, what has the company in question gained in the long run? Nothing. What has it lost? The time and money (which gets passed on to the buyer - yet another reason for frustration for the ligitimate buyer...) spent developing Yet Another Useless Copy Protection Scheme. --Dave -- David Guntner UUCP: {ames, mit-eddie}!killer!davidg INET: davidg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US "...Different ship, but she's got the right name. Treat --Admiral L. McCoy her like a lady, and she'll always bring you home." "Encounter at Farpoint"
bell@unc.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) (12/08/88)
In article <1334@leah.Albany.Edu> jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: >> How does SSI come up with the 4:1 ratio? I simply can't believe that half >> of these people would have paid money for the package if they couldn't >> pirate it -- it flies directly in the face of what I have experienced. >Not me, that's a very conservative ratio. >That 4:1 Ratio is very >conservative, probably because the Amiga community is mostly honest, >productive users. In the ST market, I would say the ratio is more like >10:1. A neighboor with an ST in my home town had EVERY single software >title ever released. He called himself a collector; 90% of his stuff was >pirated. What you have is the ratio of pirated copies to non-pirated copies. So what? If I could make copies of porsches, I'd probably have one, even though I can't afford to buy one. Was that neighbor going to buy every piece of of ST software if the copy protection is perfect? Don't be ridiculous. Most big-time pirates are fairly young, and don't have the disposable income to buy that much software. The ratio of copies that you would sell if copy protection always worked versus the number of copies you sell in our imperfect world is what the other poster was talking about. This is very hard to measure, of course, but I would doubt it's anywhere near 4:1. >You gave many reasons why companies should not copy-protect software, >now how about some ideas in how to stop piracy. Step one: think about what piracy actually hurts customers. That would be piracy by business and professional people, who have the income to buy the software. Note follow-ups to comp.misc. >What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek ------ Andrew Bell, living a double life at bell@cs.unc.edu and acb@cs.duke.edu "Why can't we ever attempt to solve a problem in this country without having a 'War' on it?" -Rich Thomson, talk.politics.misc
FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) (12/08/88)
Eric Hyman lists 5 classes of pirates. (I won't list them here 'cause I don't remember what they all are). I maintain that his #2 is NOT a pirate. Now maybe the current thinking in our judicial system would not agree with me but I HAVE been the recipient of copied commercial software, both games, languages and utillities. The ones I liked I PURCHASED. All disks have been wiped of the bootleg copies-I can make my OWN backups, thank you-and I can honestly say that NO DEVELOPER OR DISTRIBUTOR OR DEALER HAS BEEN HARMED BY THESE OCCURANCES IN ANY WAY. My definition of a pirate is one who harms another financially by using or distributing illegal copies which are used IN LIEU OF legally purchased copies. Am I a pirate now? No! All software I currently have has been purchased by me and paid for. Was I a pirate in the past? I don't think so, but others might. Would I do this again? You bet! I want to know that I can really USE that $40 package(or $400 package) before I buy it. If I can't make a successful copy, I sure can't make a backup now can I? That alone kill s my interest. I plan on developing software myself so I am VERY sensitive to this issue. (My son is the one who got ahold of the games and he's very un- happy with me for wiping them. But he admitted they weren't good enough for him to part with the purchase price so OUT THEY WENT). Eric, if you want to flame me go ahead but roasting my hide won't change my opinion. And believe me when I say I hope that the real pirates, (those that hurt you financially), have severe legal problems in the very near future and that you receive the money due you plus damages. ^ ^ o o Feline = . = Grace v It's just a buncha 1's and 0's. What's the problem?
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/08/88)
In article <5866@louie.udel.EDU>, BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes: > GET YOUR FIRE EXSTINGUISHERS READY - QUICK! Flamethrowers on "stun", Captain. > Now all that talking about programming clean and orderly and all those > people dooming games authors for taking over the machine and copyprotecting > their games made me really angry. That's nice. Your article kind of pissed me off too. > So something like "F*CK the OS" and "The Amiga sure is fast > if only this stupid grapics library weren't in the way!" was debated > thru the "Szene" as the hackers are called here in Germany.... Sorry, dude, but given two games: one that takes over the machine and one that lets me keep working, I'll buy the latter one any day. Even if it's short of flash. > Speaking of myself, I too was full of > joy when my first Text scrolled smoothly over the screen without ANY > flickering that was ALWAYS present when ScrollRaster or things like > that were at work. So write a replacement for ScrollRaster and let EVERYTHING benefit. Don't be greedy. If you want to program a C=64, the Atari ST is always there. It hates multitasking. I remember that first crop of German games. I used to go down to the store and play around with them. Wouldn't buy a one, though... not after seeing how they screwed around with the machine. I've got a couple of PC-ware products now, but I hardly ever touch them. Too much trouble to boot... > Sure there were great programs from USA that were nice to play (Shanghai > for example) but Shoot-em-ups were terrible when using the OS. Have you seen Tracers? Info gave it 5 stars. Commodore User gave it an 8. Lots of sound and speed... and not a single interrupt routine or a line of assembly. It's ALL written to run through the O/S. That, gentlemen, is the difference between a programmer and a hacker. While I was typing this I grabbed one of the review copies, stuck it in df1:, and typed: cd df1: copy fonts sys: all ; Yes, it needs its own font. It's a nice tracers ; 6 by 6 lo-res uppercase font. > you should never mix serious software with arcade games... I'm doing it now. My buddy Karl writes good music... I'm listening to Tracers running in the background while I'm typing this. "Song" set to "TCP/IP". -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: My typos are my own damn busines#!rne
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/09/88)
In article <1334@leah.Albany.Edu> jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: >> All it takes is ONE company that doesn't cripple their products -- and all >> of the cripple-ware firms' business dries up overnight. > >Yep, even though they may be the better software company... They are NOT the "better software company" if their products are crippled and they are not responsive to their customers. "Better" software companies listen to their customers, and more importantly, they _implement their requests within reason_ (because they know that those who make the request will probably buy more from them, and that they will ALSO tell their friends to do so as well). We do a heck of a lot of business on referral -- someone who currently has our product(s) is talking to a friend and says something like "Well, a couple of months ago I asked MCS if they could do <insert fav feature>, and whadda 'ya know, yesterday I got an update -- and it was in there!". Of course if you only produce products that are "one shot"; you provide ZERO in the way of support or assistance, and you basically never want to see the customer (or his opinions) once you have his/her money, then this doesn't work. In that case, though, I argue that you aren't interested in your customer at all -- only his/her pocketbook! We don't program (or sell programs) like that. We also listen to the customer; customers today are shouting "GET THAT @$%^& CRAP OFF THE DISKS, IT STOPS ME FROM PUTTING THIS PACKAGE TO USE - - or I will _NOT_ buy your product!" >> Btw: My relavent experience: >> We publish and write Unix and Xenix software, as well as some DOS >> material. NONE of our products has or ever will be copy protected, > >Errr... How could you copy protect Unix software in the first place? See SCO Xenix -- "brand". You can CP the original diskette, write an installation program, and use "brand" to serialize on installation. No serialization (meaning no valid key) and it doesn't work. Their OS and all their products install in this manner. You can also link your software in such that it looks at the OS serial number if you want to get cagey.... In fact, I recently got such a disk in the UPS delivery..... (it was a beta of a product I can't discuss); the people doing the beta thought they'd put some wierd things on the disk to prevent duplication. I could probably break it, but it would take some time and simply isn't worth it -- I'd rather not purchase the product at all if the CP was going to be on the final version (yep, we told them this). >You gave many reasons why companies should not copy-protect software, >now how about some ideas in how to stop piracy. I also listed several ideas to stop (or lessen) piracy. I see you didn't bother reading the rest of my article on the subject! Let's try again: 1) Form (and USE) associations such as the SPA (the SPA currently doesn't do much of a job -- unfortunately) to help combat organized piracy. This means that you need to hit the companies and individuals that do this as a matter of course -- with suits and confiscation raids, if necessary. In fact, if they really wanted to "crack down" they might even offer _REWARDS_ for fruitful tips....... All of this must be done within the law of course; I don't condone (and will not support) "police actions" by individuals or the state that violate Constitutional protections. 2) Burn purchasers names into programs if you need "protection". This also helps out the prosecution (and detection) under #1 above. The downside of this is that you need a system (or specialized "burning drive") at each point of sale. This sounds nasty -- until you consider that most computer stores ALREADY have the prerequisite machine onsite! All it takes is some fancy software. The other alternative is "Self-serializing" software that requires a PHONE CALL to the manufacturer for a code to "activate" the package. Both of these protection methods entail cost, but NEITHER one of them is intrusive or stops me from backing up or using the product, and both will stop the "heh Joe, check this package out" type copying, because if Joe calls for technical support, Jack (who gave Joe the disk) is busted! The "phone call" method also gives you a permanent record of everyone who has purchased a copy of the program.....useful if you DO find that a certain serial number is being seen often.... 3) Include a section in each manual (AT THE FRONT) discussing copyright law and the user's liabilities and responsibilities. 4) DO SOMETHING for the customer -- thereby forcing him to deal with you if he wants to keep things up to date -- AND keep him happy. The last may be the most important point. A _loyal_ customer simply won't let anyone copy the disks.... once again, if you're into selling "one-shots" and can't/won't help people out or listen to them this isn't going to get you anywhere. Like it or not, you'll probably never stop the 15-year old who has 95% of the Atari software. That's the breaks, folks -- until and unless we can get people to acknowledge (especially kids!) that it's WRONG, or we make enough examples out of people it simply won't stop. How to make an example? BUST that kid, take his computer, and sue the parents; Dad & Mom will turn WHITE when they discover that willful copyright violations are $25,000 a crack! (Heck, give the successful "informant" 10% of the net recovery, that ought to be enough incentive to keep people tattling on their fellow thieves!) After the first successful suit, how many parents will tolerate Junior's 200 "free" games? You can bet that first arrest and trial will make the headlines! I also contend that if you DO somehow stop the stealing by under-age people (which are probably the majority in the game area) you'll not make much more money as an author or publisher -- most of those kids simply couldn't afford to purchase the games no matter how good they are; you wouldn't see a plugged nickel from them REGARDLESS of the circumstances. The kids wouldn't have the software, true, but you wouldn't be compensated _either_. I'd estimate that you'd only see a 10% increase in sales of these products -- this means that only one in 100 (at a 10:1 copying ratio) of the present thieves would purchase the product, and I think that's probably pretty accurate. MOST of those kids who have 100's of games have a hard time buying the disks to copy the things on to! If you stop the piracy, they could only afford 1 or 2 of the games... and out of the 100's out there, what's the chance that YOURS is going to be that 1 or 2? About 1 or 2% :-) Until we treat (privately and publically) stealing software like stealing money we don't have a chance; currently stealing software is not only nearly risk-free, but it something that "everyone does". Even with those changes piracy won't disappear completely -- there are (and will be) thieves in every profession. BTW: We're not mass-market with our products; even so, our prior and current offerings, to the best of my knowledge, are not in use on any unauthorized sites (this probably means a few dozen ARE out there ;-). Anyone want to start an Association of Software Publishers & Authors, with a small annual dues that initially funds both a "rewards" system and a legal fund to bring the axe down on these people? NOT another SPA -- they're not enough. What we need to be effective is an organization with wide-based power, not something controlled only by huge giants like Lotus. Or is it better if we just ignore the problem, or continue on our present course? Do we REALLY want to change the "status quo"; if so, let's do it! -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) (12/09/88)
In article <1034@hub.ucsb.edu>, hbo@sbphy.ucsb.edu (Howard B. Owen) writes: > Brenner's point that most of the comp.sys.amiga folks are professionals > with larger than average Amiga hardware budgets is well taken. Personally, > I feel like I fall through a crack in the middle of CBM's marketing strategy. > I like my hard disk and extra RAM, but I want to run the fast games too. > I don't want to have to give up one for the other, but it seems that in > many cases they are mutually exclusive. Well maybe you people are too serious for Dungeon Maser in that case. Or Starglider II. Both to me are marvelous games, and if your complaining, then you're just nitpicking and you'll never be happy anyway. You can't have everything... -- What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu
jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) (12/09/88)
In article <AXbQRyy00VsfIJfVBC@andrew.cmu.edu>, mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: > The operating system is there for a reason. I won't use any piece of software > that is so arrogant it thinks it owns the machine, and I'm sure most of the > readers of this group feel the same way. Perhaps you should learn to program > efficiently using the resources the operating system provides. I have to disagree. Some programs simply couldn't be made without by-passing the OS routines. I really doubt that anything in the Amiga OS could draw the shapes in Starglider II fast enough. I know this is true on the ST and have no reason to think its different on the Amy. -- What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu
jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) (12/09/88)
In article <6351@killer.DALLAS.TX.US>, davidg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (David Guntner) writes: > Sounds like all the more reason to NOT copy protect. A company spends all > that time and money designing a copy protection scheme that a dedicated > pirate will just eventually break anyway, and that frustrates (sp?) the > ligitimate buyer. So, what has the company in question gained in the long > run? Nothing. What has it lost? The time and money (which gets passed on > to the buyer - yet another reason for frustration for the ligitimate > buyer...) spent developing Yet Another Useless Copy Protection Scheme. Granted, it gives the crackers insentive to crack games (but maybe they'd be writing viruses instead :-) but there are many people who don't have access to the pirate bulletin boards, or to cracked programs. I love how Rogue kills you after the first level if you have a illegitimate copy. -- What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu
blgardne@esunix.UUCP (Blaine Gardner) (12/09/88)
From article <5866@louie.udel.EDU>, by BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu: > GET YOUR FIRE EXSTINGUISHERS READY - QUICK! > > Now all that talking about programming clean and orderly and all those > people dooming games authors for taking over the machine and copyprotecting > their games made me really angry. I'll simply say: If this is your attitude, please go back to programming the C64. I'll never buy any of your games. I'll concede that _some_ application could require everything the machine has to offer. But there is NO reason for a game like Emerald Mine, Marble Madness, or a chess game to take over the system. A far worse sin than hogging the machine is assuming you know the configuration of the system, without checking to see what is there. I've got 3M of RAM, a 70M hard disk, two floppies, and a 68010 processor. If you assume I've got a 68000, and use that illegal (on the 68010, 68020 and 68030) instruction, then your program won't run. Don't tell me to use DeciGel, you wrote the program wrong. Don't tell me to run NoFastMem, allocate memory correctly. Don't tell me to "disconnect your external drive", df1: is internal on my 2000, and I'll be damned if I'll disassemble my computer to play your bloody game. Unless you're trying to do some realtime work, don't tell me that multitasking is impossible, or unnecessary. I don't begrudge Skychase taking over my system because I can see the amount of work that's being done. The frame rate and reaction speed of this two player dogfight is the best I've seen on the Amiga. But it CAN be run from the Workbench, it CAN be run from the CLI, it DOES work with FastRAM. If you don't need all that horsepower, then let me use my machine! Shanghai, Mean 18, Battle Chess, Ameoba Invaders, Asteriods, Gravity Wars, and others all allow me to use my computer any way I wish. There is no reason for 90% + of the games I've seen not to do the same. I bought my Amiga because of the freedom it allows me, don't try to clip my wings! -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 Here: utah-cs!esunix!blgardne {ucbvax,allegra,decvax}!decwrl!esunix!blgardne There: uunet!iconsys!caeco!pedro!worsel!blaine "Nobody will ever need more than 64K." "Nobody needs multitasking on a PC."
kjohn@CTIX.uucp (John K. Counsulatant) (12/09/88)
In article <5866@louie.udel.EDU> BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes: >GET YOUR FIRE EXSTINGUISHERS READY - QUICK! [lots of interesting stories deleted] > >trackdisk stuff. He really needs the memory. I guess FLT really needs >the memory for DM. Starglider II wouldn't exist if they used MT. >Don't flame about things you never experienced yourselves. [more deletions] > >IF YOU READ SO FAR, YOU MIGHT PACK AWAY YOUR EXSTINGUISHER AND >GET YOUR FLAME THROWER READY! > > @ @ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >===V=== "This message still Beta testing - don't blame me for bugs!" // > !^! -Martin (BRENNER_M@DULRUU51.BITNET) Uni Ulm/F.R.Germany \X/AMIGA > ^ ^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >%SYSTEM-W-POWERFAIL, power failure occurred This is all very interesting, but what I want to know is: 1) What the heck is FLT, DM, and MT?????? Also, if someone in Europe has created a miniOS for the Amiga, please share it with all of us. I could be talked into programming my stuff in assembler if I could get *real* control of the machine. KJohn | Amiga ///.5K| Disclaimer: This is only a dream, it's only a dream ........ | | Manic/// 1K| KJohn, the man without an Amiga :-( | | \\\/// 2K| (how much is an A2500/3000 anyways? :-) | | \XX/ 2.5K| kjohn@richp1 or [ purdue | cs.ubc | mcdcchg ] ! richp1 ! kjohn|
dillon@CLOUD9.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (12/09/88)
:In article <AXbQRyy00VsfIJfVBC@andrew.cmu.edu>, mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes:
:> The operating system is there for a reason. I won't use any piece of software
:> that is so arrogant it thinks it owns the machine, and I'm sure most of the
:> readers of this group feel the same way. Perhaps you should learn to program
:> efficiently using the resources the operating system provides.
:
:jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) Replies
:I have to disagree. Some programs simply couldn't be made without
:by-passing the OS routines. I really doubt that anything in the Amiga OS
:could draw the shapes in Starglider II fast enough. I know this is true
:on the ST and have no reason to think its different on the Amy.
And me:
I have to disagree with your disagreement. There are friendly ways
to temporarily take over custom chips such as the blitter and audio DMA
without having to take over the machine. The game writer can simply
assume an 'unloaded' machine, because when we *are* doing other things
on the machine we *know* it will make the game a little more jumpy.
It *IS* different on the Amiga.
-Mattejkst@cisunx.UUCP (Eric J. Kennedy) (12/09/88)
In article <5866@louie.udel.EDU> BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes: >GET YOUR FIRE EXSTINGUISHERS READY - QUICK! > >Now all that talking about programming clean and orderly and all those >people dooming games authors for taking over the machine and copyprotecting >their games made me really angry. ---long winded flame deleted--- Well, I can understand *some* of your points, and I don't really think it's worth it to address each individually. But... The fact remains that I (and many other people, apparently) simply will not buy games that are copyprotected, use their own DOS or loaders which must be booted from floppy, or take over the machine. I own one game that doesn't multitask--Flight Simulator II. I don't ever use it, primarily because I have to bring everything else on my machine to a grinding halt in order to do so. I use my Amiga more like it's a workstation than a personal computer. So I *will not* buy any more games which conflict with this environment. Period. End of discussion. Simple, really. -- Eric Kennedy ejkst@cisunx.UUCP
carlson@bellatrix (Richard L. Carlson) (12/09/88)
In article <12325@cup.portal.com> FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) writes: >Eric Hyman lists 5 classes of pirates. (I won't list them here 'cause I don't >remember what they all are). I maintain that his #2 is NOT a pirate. >... Am I a pirate now? No! All software I currently have has >been purchased by me and paid for. Was I a pirate in the past? I don't think >so, but others might. Would I do this again? You bet! I want to know that I >can really USE that $40 package(or $400 package) before I buy it. I can't say that I condone even this type of "pirating". But we definitely need *some* method of protecting consumers from bad software. Software is not like a TV, where you can glance at it in a store and immediately see if it's going to satisfy all your needs. Software is much more complicated. And a lot of the idiotic aspects of poorly-written software show up only after you've used it for a while. Coincidentally, I've just started paying attention to the TV ads that guarantee your full money back if you're not satisfied with whatever they're selling; even if you've used up whatever that was. It seems to me that something along these lines is what we need for software: an advertised, up-front policy that guarantees you'll get your full money back if you're dissatisfied with a product for any reason. Now, I claim that this will satisfy almost all of today's "legitimate pirates" that just want to test-drive software, and *also* allow software to be free from copy protection. Why? Well, say that all dissatisfied customers must return the software directly to the manufacturer. Then, the manufacturer can maintain a database of all people that have requested refunds for software. And, gasp, the software publishers could even *share* their information to find "often-returners". So a pirate could buy a piece of software, copy it, and then get a refund on the original disk, but he would be in someone's database. And he could rest assured that if he did this very often, he would arouse suspicion. Hopefully, this would not even cause legitimate users to be harassed, because they could supply legitimate reasons for returning the software that they could not use, even if they returned a lot of programs. And another factor to consider is that this scheme would not suffer the same fate as shareware. In fact, it would *benefit* from the "inertia factor": after buying a piece of software, someone would have to go to extra work to get his money back, and so only people with serious complaints about a product would be likely to return it (as opposed to shareware, where only people that are exceptionally impressed with a product [plus a few all-around "good-guys" :-)] will bother to go to the extra effort of sending the author money). I know this is a pretty simplistic picture of things, but I think it makes a good place to start working for a copy-protection-free world. And maybe some publishers actually allow you to do this anyway; but if so, they sure don't advertise it. Just a thought... -- Richard carlson@ernie.Berkeley.EDU
elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (12/09/88)
in article <1034@hub.ucsb.edu>, hbo@sbphy.ucsb.edu (Howard B. Owen) says: > In article <5866@louie.udel.EDU>, BRENNER_%DULRUU51.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes... >>GET YOUR FIRE EXTINGUISHERS READY - QUICK! >> >> (Long and interesting message advocating taking over the machine at >>a low level in order to optimize execution for shoot-em-up games deleted) > > This message underlines the dilemma Commodore faces in trying to crack > the business and education markets. Folks that value fast scrolling and smooth > animation over multitasking and hard disks make up a large proportion of > the market for the Amiga 500. One thing I like about the Amiga operating system is that you can go straight to the hardware if you want, WITHOUT blowing it out of the water -- just open a custom screen, and play with it anyway you like. I'm using an ancient Amiga 1000 with 2 floppies (but do have 2 megs of RAM), so I'm hardly in the "wealthy professional with $6,000 in hardware" class... but I STILL appreciate multitasking games, for one reason: telecommunications. While I'm doing a file transfer, or my PC Pursuit script is chugging away trying to make it into Dallas and call my favorite BBS's, I can be playing Nethack or otherwise keeping myself busy. As contrasted to my C-64 days, when I'd sit here thumping on the edge of the keyboard waiting for the #$%@#$% thing to finish.... BTW, how old is that 1000? "Look, Ma, no halfbright!" -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 "We have treatments for disturbed persons, Nicholas. But, at least for the moment, we have no treatment for disturbing persons." -- Dr. Island
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (kevin lee smathers) (12/09/88)
> > Let me get back to the start when the Amiga just appeared on the market > and every C64-Kid in Germany dreamed about the new machines... Incredible. A new charity. Send Dos-less machines to the poor and downtrodden german cracking youths. > frustration came when the graphics were SOO SLOW when AmigaBasic was used > and it was SO AWFULLY COMPLICATED opening a window and reading the mouse > position. So something like "F*CK the OS" and "The Amiga sure is fast > if only this stupid grapics library weren't in the way!" was debated Of course the graphics library doesn't have to be used, and doesn't have to be disabled to write your own routines. As I understand you though, you were saying that you (generic "you") didn't *try* to use the libraries. 'They were too complex', neh? > boots at once from disk and loads in 15seconds over a game that needs > 1 Meg, makes your drive seek endlessly between track 40 and track 79 and > makes you sleepy while you play. Games are for everybody. Not just for > professionals who have a 80Meg harddisk, 4 Megabytes of RAM and a There is a long way between a minimum configuration A1000 (128k?) and what is in typical use today. But then you've already noticed the fallacy your- self. Such software will not only work in a minimum configuration machine but also ONLY IN A MINIMUM CONFIGURATION. Do you really want all of your old code to have to be rewritten when 68020's do come down to 10DM? Is it worthwhile to save 10k to run in 512k knowing that the program will break when the enhanced chip set comes out, and that new machines are being sold which are configured to have a baseline 1 megabyte of memory. After spending $2000 on my amiga, do you really thing that I won't spend another $400 for a 2 meg memory card? ... > 68030 acceleration board got from their organization. Most of you active > networkers are obviously that type! Take time to think about all those > kids. It's easier to turn your machine on and insert the game disk than I am a pure recreational Amiga user. After a day at work on the g'damn I*M's (big ones, not PeeCees) I don't want to look at work. So I chose my Amiga. I use it to: 1. Teleconferenc 2. Program recreationally 3. Play with ray-tracing et al. 4. Play games while waiting for the above 3 to process. I Don't Care whether or not the poor german kids who wrote the game have enough money to buy more than 512k RAM. I *do* and I want to use it. I don't care if 1, 2 and 3 are slowed down by 4, but disabling them entirely is unallowable. I guess my new rule of thumb is "don't buy games from Germany." > should never mix serious software with arcade games. Do you think > Arcade machines multitask? (Oh great, I'll put this in my .signature!) Write all of the machine language routines you like. Make your games as fast as possible. Ignore the libraries, and just use the hardware yourself. Except that this requires considerable redevelopment for simple hardware routines it is acceptable. Of course your software will never benefit from upgrades to the roms, or the operating system, but... ...do all of this legally, within the OS. The Amiga OS makes extensive provisions for custom copper lists, and other user hacks. > !^! -Martin (BRENNER_M@DULRUU51.BITNET) Uni Ulm/F.R.Germany \X/AMIGA -Sullivan Segall _____________________________________________________________ /V\ Sully set the example: to fly without moving. We shall ' learn to soar on wings of thought. And the student will surpass the teacher. To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _____________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/09/88)
In article <1341@leah.Albany.Edu>, jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: > I have to disagree. Some programs simply couldn't be made without > by-passing the OS routines. I really doubt that anything in the Amiga OS > could draw the shapes in Starglider II fast enough. I know this is true > on the ST and have no reason to think its different on the Amy. There's a difference between bypassing the O/S and taking over the machine. After all, there's nothing in the Amiga that will prevent you from doing anything you want to your own bitplanes, including putting a 25 cent stamp on them and mailing them to Nacogdoches. So there's no reason Starglider can't draw its shapes with anything it wants to, including the blitter, the copper, the 68000, or a 24-color box of crayolas. Without taking down the O/S one parsec longer than it needs to. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: My typos are my own damn busines#!rne
awm@gould.doc.ic.ac.uk (Aled Morris) (12/09/88)
>Errr... How could you copy protect Unix software in the first place?
Log in to a Vax (not uVax!) or Sun sometime, and type "hostid". You can
hardwire these numbers into commercial software to restrict their use
to particular CPUs.
btw, I strongly disapprove of copy protection, I also strongly disapprove
of software hoarding. Free software for all! (flames to /dev/null)
Aled Morris
systems programmer
mail: awm@doc.ic.ac.uk | Department of Computing
uucp: ..!ukc!icdoc!awm | Imperial College
talk: 01-589-5111x5085 | 180 Queens Gate, London SW7 2BZ
#disclaimer "Opinions are mine alone; I'm always right"grahamr@ucl-cs.UUCP (12/09/88)
From: Graham Roberts <grahamr@uk.ac.ucl.cs> >Well, Let me make a few points. The reasons for copy protection are not >because companies are greedy; the users created the problem. >You can't complain about your problems, when there are people out there >who get a kick out of cracking a game and spreading it. That 4:1 Ratio >is very conservative, probably because the Amiga community is >mostly honest, productive users. It depends on where you are in the world, though - don't forget that there are more Amiga's outside the US than inside. The Amiga is much more of a games/home machine in Europe and software piracy is a major problem. Some countries have a *very* bad reputation and no effective laws to combat piracy. For instance, I have read that in Denmark pirated software is normal and few people bother to buy the real thing - is this true or just journalistic hype?? Graham grahamr@uk.ac.ucl.uk
john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) (12/09/88)
In article <2397@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM(Karl Denninger) writes: > >They are NOT the "better software company" if their products are crippled >and they are not responsive to their customers. "Better" software companies >listen to their customers, and more importantly, they _implement their >requests within reason_ (because they know that those who make the request >will probably buy more from them, and that they will ALSO tell their friends >to do so as well). > >We do a heck of a lot of business on referral -- someone who currently has >our product(s) is talking to a friend and says something like "Well, a >couple of months ago I asked MCS if they could do <insert fav feature>, and >whadda 'ya know, yesterday I got an update -- and it was in there!". > ("you" and "your" is used generically, not toward Karl's company or him) One of the BEST forms of referral is for one of your customers to make up a disk for his friend. (gasp!) How? you say.. Well assuming your package is worth having in the first place, the copy will let the guy use and become familiar with the product. He obviously will not get full benefit from it without manuals and will not, of course, get support. when he gets serious about using the product, he will probably buy it to get support and docs. Assuming your cost is reasonable, of course. Consider also the fact that your company will get referrals from people who have "bootleg" copies of your software and have NOT bought a copy. I personally try to keep current copies of all significant software on the PC market. Many times as a consultant, I have given a disk to someone to try of software I have not bought and recommended that they try it and if they like it, buy it. Most do. This is the absolute BEST publicity you as a publisher could get. A locally recognized expert has recommended your product and has given the person a disk to try. What more could you ask for. I firmly believe that this so-called "piracy" is the root cause for the original success of all the major horizontal software companies. Take Boreland for example. I'll bet there are a Zillion copies of Turbo Pascal floating around. I don't program in TP, but I've always kept a bootleg copy of the current stuff around. I'm responsible for probably 2 or 3 dozen sales of TP based on my recommendation accompanied by a disk to novice programmers. I could make that recommendation because i had piddled around with it enough to personally know it was a good product. And I will NOT recommend a product I have not personally used. When the ocasion arose that I had to do some TP programming, I bought a copy. Everybody wins. Tightly coupled to this is the requirement that fair value be delivered. TP at 40 or 50 bux is a classic. Good docs, excellent operation at a fair price. If you sell a good program with xeroxed, dot-matrixed docs for 500 bux, be prepared to see a lot of copies floating around. ON the other hand, I will not use or buy or recommend any software with ANY kind of protection scheme, be it disk trickery, phone registration or embedded names. And I consider these types of packages to be fair game to anyone who wants to copy them. > >2) Burn purchasers names into programs if you need "protection". This also Unacceptable. Besides screwing yourselves out of the free publicity described above, consider the risk involved. Suppose I buy a product with my name embedded in it. A friend of mine comes to my machine and gets a copy without my knowledge (open offices and all you know) and spread it around a bit. You find out about it and sic your legal beagles on me with the full might of the copyright laws. The case will hit the papers and trade journals and i'll be terribly embarrised and slandered. You can bet your store on the fact that I'll be back screaming mad looking for your legal hide. Consider your chances of convincing a jury of MY peers (fellow software users) that you are inocent of neglence and slander. > protection methods entail cost, but NEITHER one of them is intrusive or > stops me from backing up or using the product, and both will stop the > "heh Joe, check this package out" type copying, because if Joe calls for > technical support, Jack (who gave Joe the disk) is busted! The "phone > call" method also gives you a permanent record of everyone who has > purchased a copy of the program.....useful if you DO find that a certain > serial number is being seen often.... > I certainly would not bother with the product. If I cannot buy it, open the box and run it unfettered with gimmicks, dongles, and the like, I'll look elsewhere. Your competator will probably have an equivilent product and will be more in touch with his customers than you are. >4) DO SOMETHING for the customer -- thereby forcing him to deal with you if > he wants to keep things up to date -- AND keep him happy. The last may > be the most important point. A _loyal_ customer simply won't let anyone > copy the disks.... once again, if you're into selling "one-shots" and > can't/won't help people out or listen to them this isn't going to get you > anywhere. > Ahaaa!!!! We're getting somewhere now. This is the key to continuing income. Upgrade (as opposed to bug fixes which should be free) the product frequently and offer real value in the form of good documentation. If you view your docs as an equal party in generating your income, you will be far ahead. For example, you should impart your knowledge of the problem your application is designed to address. An accounting package should have a section on double-entry accounting principles. A CAD system should have a section on engineering drawing practices and techniques. This added value is tremendous incentive to the customer to buy your package to get the docs. Especially so if there are enough docs to pass the pain threshold at the xerox machine. An absolutely fatal mistake is for you to unbundle the educational material and try to sell it as a separate book. The user will then simply grab a copy of your software and buy the $20.00 book. >Until we treat (privately and publically) stealing software like stealing >money we don't have a chance; currently stealing software is not only nearly >risk-free, but it something that "everyone does". > > I've got no problem in going after the real theives - those that buy oen copy and then propagate it all over the company - complete with xeroxed docs. I'd screw those people to the wall. Note that this policy almost eliminates the private individual as a "pirate". The one exception is probably the club or user group that sponsors mass copying. > >Or is it better if we just ignore the problem, or continue on our present >course? Do we REALLY want to change the "status quo"; if so, let's do it! I think the real solution will occur when the publishers realize that they are really in pardnership with their customers and that their customers' concerns are at least as important as their own. When the publishers provide reasonably bug free and easy to use software accompanied by good documentation, knowledgible tech support people reachable without 40 calls, fair upgrades that provide added value (as opposed to the 70 and 80 dollar maintenance and bugfix upgrades Microsoft has been foisting off on their compiler customers lately), and readjust their definition of piracy to exclude casual and/or referral copying, then the problem will magically go away. It's as simle as that. Screw the real pirates to show you will not tolerate such activities but support your current and potential users and you will be very successful. john De Armond
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/10/88)
In article <1341@leah.Albany.Edu> jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: >In article <AXbQRyy00VsfIJfVBC@andrew.cmu.edu>, mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: >> The operating system is there for a reason. I won't use any piece of software >> that is so arrogant it thinks it owns the machine, and I'm sure most of the >> readers of this group feel the same way. Perhaps you should learn to program >> efficiently using the resources the operating system provides. > >I have to disagree. Some programs simply couldn't be made without >by-passing the OS routines. I really doubt that anything in the Amiga OS >could draw the shapes in Starglider II fast enough. I know this is true >on the ST and have no reason to think its different on the Amy. I agree with jac423; what you claim, Michael, may be true for an A1000, but how about the new Amiga 3000s? Are you going to try to tell me that with something like 4-6 times the original machine's power, that the OS routines aren't "good enough" to perform the job? Probably not -- but the FTL (and Starglider) people HAVE told me that even though I spent all this money, and have 8M of memory in the machine, and could easily waste a few cycles on a compile (the game doesn't need them all).....I can't do it. (If they are also using cycle-time dependant timing loops, they are _really_ showing a lack of programming skill!) Furthermore, I have to reset/power down to get out. Rediculous! If the hardware can't handle the load, then _if you must_ disable multitasking -- but fer cripes sakes, gimme back my machine INTACT when you are asked to quit running! Lastly, if I spill coffee on my floppy, or (heaven forbid) my fixed disk crashes, I should be able to go to the safe, retrieve the master disk, and MAKE ANOTHER WORKING COPY. Games and other software that thinks the hardware is an ARCADE PIECE perpetuate the myth that the Amiga IS an arcade game and not a serious system. Commodore might want to address that by making future versions of the Amy more difficult to set up copy-protection on (ie: kickstart ROM returns "no disk in device" if the boot block is non-standard)..... or include some kind of a "bit copying" (ie: nibbler) device in Intuition ;-) The second might be the best route, as it's "passive" but makes all those nasty CP mechanisms immediately useless. At least one game publisher forces you to exit a game with a power cycle because their game doesn't release all it's memory (or perhaps doesn't release any of it?) back to ADOS before it exits. So now we have "reboot to exit because our programmers are not skilled enough (or too lazy) to give back resources to the system before exiting." Publishers want _money_ for this trash?! Also along this line (bad design and/or unacceptable packaging and engineering) - Commodore, do your current Ami's have that same silly restriction on power cycling (ie: must wait <x> seconds or some unspecified damage may occur) that the A1000 did? That was one of the silliest things I had ever heard of, especially for a non-fixed disk system. While it's not advisable to quickly cycle power on a PC-style system (it may not boot if the PWR_GOOD line doesn't fall; usually the result of a cheap power supply), it certainly won't physically hurt it to do so.... -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
kenk@algedi.UUCP (Ken Koster N7IPB) (12/10/88)
In article <jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: > Various stuff about why copy protection is needed - deleted. SCENE 1 >10:1. A neighboor with an ST in my home town had EVERY single software >title ever released. He called himself a collector; 90% of his stuff was >pirated. Did you turn him in to the police? If not: SCENE 2 A neighboring house is being used for drug dealing. The people using it fence stolen goods, and make drug deals at all hours. Obviously you don't turn them in either. If we personally don't do something about the problem, It won't get solved. >You gave many reasons why companies should not copy-protect software, >now how about some ideas in how to stop piracy. In the old days pirates were hunted down, tried (sometimes) and hung. We can be a little more lenient, but if your neighbor next door or the kid down the street were caught and fined, their friends and neighbors might be a little less inclined to steal software. It works for common thieves, why not software thieves as well. -- Work: uport SYSV algedi!kenk@data-io.com Ken Koster or uunet!pilchuck!algedi!kenk A lone Unix-pc Home: Amiga uunet!pilchuck!algedi!kkami!kenk in the MSDOS swamp Packet Radio: N7IPB@N7IPB
mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) (12/10/88)
I have to disagree with you. The operating system now gives you officialy-sanctioned ways to grab the resources you need so that you can twiddle them yourself, IN A MANNER THAT IS FRIENDLY TO THE MACHINE. If you think the system-supplied rendering or animation routines are too slow, fine -- you can take over the blitter yourself. Same with the copper and the audio registers. I think, at a minimum, every game should be runnable from an Icon on the workbench display, not screw up the environment for other tasks that might be running or asleep in the background, and return to the Workbench when done. If the program needs the total and undivided resources of the machine and can't get them, it should quit and politely say what it is lacking "Can't initialize audio. Please quit other applications which use audio and try again." I should have rephrased my quoted statement above as "perhaps you should learn to program efficently UNDER the operating system instead of AGAINST it." --M -- Michael Portuesi / Information Technology Center / Carnegie Mellon University INET: mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu / BITNET: mp1u+%andrew.cmu.edu@cmccvb UUCP: ...harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!mp1u+ "I'm very sorry, Master, but that WAS the backup system" -- Slave
kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) (12/10/88)
I wonder why companies don't offer cash rewards for "information leading to the arrest and conviction" of software pirates. Just imagine if pirates had to keep their hoards secret because of a substantial cash incentive for their friends to rat on them. Don't think it would happen? How many scruples can a software pirate have? The minimum charge would be something like recipt of stolen goods. If copying could be proved, the copyright laws enable fines up to $10K per occurrance. Make the rewards and penalties significant, and you'd find password hackers invading each other's secret pirate bulletin boards like rival gangs shooting it out. With pirating driven deep underground, the options for honest citizens would be clearer. Break the law and actually risk conviction, pay the price and use the product, or do without. Nahh. I must have missed something. This looks too easy.
jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) (12/10/88)
In article <12325@cup.portal.com> FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) writes: >I HAVE been the recipient of copied commercial software, both games, languages >and utillities. The ones I liked I PURCHASED. All disks have been wiped of >the bootleg copies-I can make my OWN backups, thank you-and I can honestly say >that NO DEVELOPER OR DISTRIBUTOR OR DEALER HAS BEEN HARMED BY THESE OCCURANCES >IN ANY WAY. ... >I want to know that I >can really USE that $40 package(or $400 package) before I buy it. If I can't >make a successful copy, I sure can't make a backup now can I? As Eric Hyman (sp) said, this is less egregious than the other classes of "pirates" he listed. The best solution to this is to have a good dealer. My local dealer when I lived near Albany, New York was Software & Such. You could try out any program on the Amiga's in the store, to see whether they were what you wanted (which reminds me of another pet peeve: boxes that tell you nothing about the product in any way, not even screen shots.) They had an excellent return policy, etc, etc. I didn't have to worry about buying something that wasn't what I wanted, since I could try it out in the store. This eliminates your reasons for accepting (even temporarily) any illegally copied software. Unfortunately, most dealers aren't as good about trying stuff in the store. This does NOT mean I condone such copying, see my first paragraph; I'm just showing how the reasons you stated can be nullified by a good dealer. -- You've heard of CATS? Well, I'm a member of DOGS: Developers Of Great Software. Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup
dan-hankins@cup.portal.com (Daniel B Hankins) (12/10/88)
Information should be free. Software authors should be compensated for their work. How do we reconcile the two? Today, pirates live the first and tell themselves little white lies about the second. Authors live the second and try to stop the first. The two concepts exist in a constant state of conflict. The two can cooperate to create a society where technological progress is double (a very conservative effort) what it is today. Information can be free while authors (and even software companies) make money. However, those who are less than excellent are quickly weeded out by such a system. It is difficult to hide kludges when the source is free. Will it happen? Highly unlikely - unless a grass roots movement can be started to seed the idea. If I get enough mail on this, I will post the idea to the net soon. I may anyway. I've never read it, but I suspect the idea is similar to Stallman's GNU Manifesto. In a society where 90% cooperate, the 10% who maintain secrecy will be left behind. Dan Hankins
wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) (12/10/88)
In article <5485@cbmvax.UUCP> jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) writes: > The best solution to this is to have a good dealer. My local dealer >when I lived near Albany, New York was Software & Such. You could try out >any program on the Amiga's in the store, to see whether they were what you >wanted (which reminds me of another pet peeve: boxes that tell you nothing >about the product in any way, not even screen shots.) They had an excellent >return policy, etc, etc. I didn't have to worry about buying something that >wasn't what I wanted, since I could try it out in the store. > > This eliminates your reasons for accepting (even temporarily) any >illegally copied software. Unfortunately, most dealers aren't as good about >trying stuff in the store. This does NOT mean I condone such copying, see >my first paragraph; I'm just showing how the reasons you stated can be >nullified by a good dealer. WOW! You must have a great dealer alright. Has everything in stock, does he? No? Oh, well then, he must special order software packages at customer's whims, let them try them out, and send them back if the customer isn't interested!! Sounds great in theory, but doesn't really work. William B. Norris IV -end- -news feeder-
Dave Lawrence (12/10/88)
kenk@algedi.UUCP (Ken Koster N7IPB) wrote: >In article <jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: >SCENE 1 [ - Software pirate, described by Julius ] >Did you turn him in to the police? >If not: >SCENE 2 [ - neighbour drug-dealers/fencers ] >Obviously you don't turn them in either. Well, well. Yet another completely far-fetched analogy from USENET. Surprised? Not much. I look for maybe 5 or 6 of them a week in the handful of groups which I read and try to find the most ridiculous. This one wins for this week. I'd rank it at about a megagilly. Dave (My apologies if this crticism has upset you.) -- tale@rpitsmts.bitnet, tale%mts@rpitsgw.rpi.edu, tale@pawl.rpi.edu
karl@sugar.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) (12/11/88)
In article <6268@fluke.COM>, kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) writes: > I wonder why companies don't offer cash rewards for "information leading to > the arrest and conviction" of software pirates. Just imagine if pirates had > to keep their hoards secret because of a substantial cash incentive for > their friends to rat on them. You're right. Although person-to-person piracy is nearly impossible to detect, what allows pirate boards to operate so blatantly is they are not being prosecuted for copyright violations. If the government would crack down on them, they would have to keep their boards secret, and this would reduce their ability to proliferate pirated software. It also would make copy protection work better, because cracking copy protection with anything other than Marauder or its equivalent is beyond the abilities of most Amiga owners. Whether or not that's an advantage depends on your point of view regarding copy protection. For games for which one doesn't even don't need a manual to learn to operate, I think *some* kind of CP is a necessary evil. For commercial packages that you do work with (and usually need support, documentation and udpates for), no way. Regarding the copying of ROM cartridges, there were some hardware techs at a certain large company who had EPROM copies of a very large number of Atari 2600 games and they made a 2600 cartridge PC board that had a ZIF (Zero Insertion Force, the green sockets that have a lever on them to clamp the socket down on the pens) socket on it and they just distributed the chips to their circle of pals. Nintendo and Sega cartridges being as expensive as they are, I imagine this sort of thing is going on in some places. -- -- "We've been following your progress with considerable interest, not to say -- contempt." -- Zaphod Beeblebrox IV -- uunet!sugar!karl, Unix BBS (713) 438-5018
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/11/88)
In article <2087@stiatl.UUCP>, john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) writes: > An absolutely fatal mistake is for you to unbundle the educational > material and try to sell it as a separate book. The user will then > simply grab a copy of your software and buy the $20.00 book. ... unless you decide to make your money off the book. Now who was it was doing that a few years ago? -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: My typos are my own damn busines#!rne
bell@unc.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) (12/11/88)
In article <1625@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >In article <5485@cbmvax.UUCP> jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) writes: >> The best solution to this is to have a good dealer. My local dealer >>... They had an excellent >>return policy, etc, etc. I didn't have to worry about buying something that >>wasn't what I wanted, since I could try it out in the store. >WOW! You must have a great dealer alright. Has everything in stock, does he? >No? Oh, well then, he must special order software packages at customer's >whims, let them try them out, and send them back if the customer isn't >interested!! >Sounds great in theory, but doesn't really work. It would, however, work for companies that made demos of their products, i.e. crippled versions of the software. I expect a dealer would be willing to pay the price of a disk for a demo. If not, the company could absorb the cost of the demo disks themselves. Such demos should be truly freely redistributable, of course, and I would make them available to the general public as in "send us $3 and we'll send you a copy of the demo, which you can freely give copies away of." That way, even folks without a local dealer can look at software before they buy it. Any good reason for not doing this? (Save the amount of hacking to make a demo?) > William B. Norris IV ------ Andrew Bell, living a double life at bell@cs.unc.edu and acb@cs.duke.edu "Why can't we ever attempt to solve a problem in this country without having a 'War' on it?" -Rich Thomson, talk.politics.misc
jpdres10@usl-pc.usl.edu (Green Eric Lee) (12/11/88)
In message <2397@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) says: >Of course if you only produce products that are "one shot"; you provide ZERO >in the way of support or assistance, and you basically never want to see the >customer (or his opinions) once you have his/her money, then this doesn't >work. Actually, this is the majority of software publishers out there in the PC world. Most of them release one version of the program, then drop it from their lineup when sales start tailing off (because it is functionally obsolete, or whatever). I hear that something of the sort is why we haven't seen a version of Dpaint for the Amiga with the bugs fixed -- Electronic Arse refuses to use the fixed version that Dan Silva (the author) sent them. >In that case, though, I argue that you aren't interested in your >customer at all -- only his/her pocketbook! You said it, not me! >I also listed several ideas to stop (or lessen) piracy. >1) Form (and USE) associations such as the SPA (the SPA currently doesn't > do much of a job -- unfortunately) to help combat organized piracy. This > means that you need to hit the companies and individuals that do this as > a matter of course -- with suits and confiscation raids, if necessary. > In fact, if they really wanted to "crack down" they might even offer > _REWARDS_ for fruitful tips....... All of this must be done within the > law of course; I don't condone (and will not support) "police actions" > by individuals or the state that violate Constitutional protections. This would especially be helpful for hitting businesses and school systems. If the tipster can recieve his/her reward anonymously, you'll see disgruntled employees everywhere turning in their cheap employers. >2) Burn purchasers names into programs if you need "protection". This also > helps out the prosecution (and detection) under #1 above. The downside > of this is that you need a system (or specialized "burning drive") at > each point of sale. This sounds nasty -- until you consider that most > computer stores ALREADY have the prerequisite machine onsite! All it Note that computer stores are one of the biggest sources of pirated software! I'm not talking about Entre' or Computerland, here, of course... I'm talking about Joe's Hack Shop, which sells a little of this, a little of that, neighborhood gathering spot for the hacker clique, walk in the back and he has a filing cabinet full of copied disks. Usually the small-time shops can't afford to stock lots of games, which move slowly after the initial spurt upon release, and so the owners are less-than-dilligent about policing copying on the premesis. Another source of pirated games is the proprieter's children. At one local very respectable computer store, the proprietor apparently doesn't feel like paying for software for his children when he has a whole store full of slowly-moving stock... unfortunately for his sales, his kids tend to let their friends copy them! (but they live 30 miles away in another town, so that tends to alleviate the effects). So how do you stop this? Well, if you walk into the store, it's not obvious, and you can't raid all the computer stores. The only people who know about such things are the people who copy software, and they won't turn in their "source", so that won't work. Beats me. > takes is some fancy software. The other alternative is > "Self-serializing" software that requires a PHONE CALL to the > manufacturer for a code to "activate" the package. Both of these Might eliminate some casual copying, but the hackers will have it "broken" in two minutes or less. Or else they'll distribute the unserialized disk with the code they got from the telephone (probably with a fake name/address/phone #). > "heh Joe, check this package out" type copying, because if Joe calls for > technical support, Jack (who gave Joe the disk) is busted! Nope. See above. Jack probably gave his name as "Jane Doe" when he called. It happens. Besides, few people copy the kind of programs that need technical support (with the exception of Lotus 1-2-3, Wordstar, and Wordperfect, for which aftermarket manuals exist). Most of the kids are interested only in games -- which don't need support. I know that I personally would have little use for a wordprocessor without documentation. >3) Include a section in each manual (AT THE FRONT) discussing copyright law > and the user's liabilities and responsibilities. I wrote a BBS program some years back. After a new user enters his name, ID, etc., it drops him into the editor to enter some comments. Everytime the program enters the editor, it prints out "Enter /H for Help". About 2 callers out of every three instead hit the RETURN key a couple of dozen times on an empty line -- i.e., like you do with Fido and other such simplistic BBS's. My conclusion is that most people do NOT read the documentation, even if it's a single line! You really expect them to read this whole dull boring conversation about copyrights? >4) DO SOMETHING for the customer -- thereby forcing him to deal with you if > he wants to keep things up to date -- AND keep him happy. YES. Fix bugs. Release updates regularly. Write a good, thorough manual, e.g. like AREXX on the Amiga. I know personally one person who thought about pirating AREXX, but desisted because it'd be a pain to copy the manual. A good manual for a complex product is going to be fairly lengthy if it is going to be complete and understandable. For example, the step-by-step setup section for how to set up the BBS was nearly 40 pages, and included a number of helpful charts and illustrations. That's the setup section -- not the reference section (the whole manual was somewhere around 120 pages, including an INDEX -- an INDEX, mind you, that most useful of things that EVERYBODY seems to omit. I know it's a pain to build an index, but there is NO EXCUSE for a professional-quality product to not have an indexed manual). >The last may > be the most important point. A _loyal_ customer simply won't let anyone > copy the disks.... once again, if you're into selling "one-shots" and > can't/won't help people out or listen to them this isn't going to get you > anywhere. You got it. Fiercly loyal customers not only won't let anyone copy the disk, they'll throw tantrums and threaten bodily harm if they catch someone else pirating the program. >I also contend that if you DO somehow stop the stealing by under-age people >(which are probably the majority in the game area) you'll not make much more >money as an author or publisher -- most of those kids simply couldn't afford >to purchase the games no matter how good they are; you wouldn't see a plugged >nickel from them REGARDLESS of the circumstances. The kids wouldn't have >the software, true, but you wouldn't be compensated _either_. I'd estimate >that you'd only see a 10% increase in sales of these products -- this >means An interesting phenomenon: during the height of the Commodore 64's popularity, there were kids dumping their PC Jr.'s and Apple IIs by the wayside to buy 64's. The reason? All their friends at school had 64s, so they could all go in together to buy a program, and copy it among themselves (these were just ordinary schoolkids, not the stereotypical bepimpled geek with 900 disks... they weren't interested in spending all their time "collecting", they just wanted to play a game occasionally to relax after school or whatever). Anyhow, because of that phenomenon, you might actually see a DECLINE in sales if you manage to totally stop the kids from copying (which, BTW, is an impossibility, since it would take Gestapo tactics to eliminate such small-time graft). Kids don't generally hold on to their money for long. If they have $10, they tend to start looking for something to spend it on. If four kids have $10, they might go in together on a $40 game. But, seperately, it's more likely to go for gas, burgers, movie tickets, or some other teen pasttime. >Anyone want to start an Association of Software Publishers & Authors, with a >small annual dues that initially funds both a "rewards" system and a legal >fund to bring the axe down on these people? NOT another SPA -- they're not >enough. What we need to be effective is an organization with wide-based >power, not something controlled only by huge giants like Lotus. What we need is an organization to which I can give my enrollment fee, and then when I discover someone copying my program, give them a call and have them handle prosecuting the bastards. Given that someone copying my program is probably also copying other member's software, it seems quite ridiculous for me to have to pay for going after the SOB all by myself... not to mention that if I, personally, go after him, he might manage to "lose" the one particular disk with the evidence I need... but Joe Collector can't "lose" 900 disks very easily in a short amount of time. >Or is it better if we just ignore the problem, or continue on our present >course? Do we REALLY want to change the "status quo"; if so, let's do it! I think that going after institutional pirates and certain high-profile types (the "crackers" and "collectors") would be useful, but eliminating pirating altogether is a pipe dream that will never happen. People tend to notice that it doesn't cost anything to copy a disk... and people will always give in to the temptation. The only way to remove that temptation is to make copying a program harder than just copying a disk, i.e. with documentation and support. -- Eric Lee Green P.O. Box 92191, Lafayette, LA 70509 {ames,mit-eddie,osu-cis,...}!killer!elg, killer!usl!elg, etc.
jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) (12/11/88)
In article <1625@nmtsun.nmt.edu> wncs302@nmtsun.nmt.edu (William Norris) writes: >In article <5485@cbmvax.UUCP> jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) writes: >> The best solution to this is to have a good dealer. My local dealer >>when I lived near Albany, New York was Software & Such. You could try out ... >WOW! You must have a great dealer alright. Has everything in stock, does he? >No? Oh, well then, he must special order software packages at customer's >whims, let them try them out, and send them back if the customer isn't >interested!! > >Sounds great in theory, but doesn't really work. Sorry, but it does. No, he didn't have every program in stock, but then again I can only buy what he has in stock. If there was a new program out that I was interested in, and told him, he would order at least one copy for stock, and if it sold he'd probably order more. Note that it isn't me ordering it (with the possible exception of very expensive programs, like Caligari ($1-2,000?)). In general, though, he had a good selection of programs, especially those his customers (and he) had liked, and a good selection of new programs. -- You've heard of CATS? Well, I'm a member of DOGS: Developers Of Great Software. Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup
bell@unc.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Bell) (12/11/88)
In article <12399@cup.portal.com> dan-hankins@cup.portal.com (Daniel B Hankins) writes: >Information should be free. Why? Information you create can be free if you wish it. I have seen this before, and still don't understand this opinion. When is information created that would have been created even if it were to be "free?" Every person is perfectly free to create whatever software they wish in their own free time without getting paid to do so. >Software authors should be compensated for their work. Agreed, assuming it is worth such recompense. The free market tends to be one of the best determiners of such. >How do we reconcile the two? Today, pirates live the first and tell themselves >little white lies about the second. Authors live the second and try to stop >the first. The two concepts exist in a constant state of conflict. >The two can cooperate to create a society where technological progress is >double (a very conservative effort) what it is today. Again, why? Because people will work together more? Again, you're still free to work with whoever you like. What is the big difference between directly compensating the software authors and buying programs? Despite piracy, there really isn't a better way to compensate authors. >Information can be >free while authors (and even software companies) make money. However, >those who are less than excellent are quickly weeded out by such a system. >It is difficult to hide kludges when the source is free. What system? Tax people to pay software authors? I have yet to see a solution, just two seemingly incompatible goals. >Will it happen? Highly unlikely - unless a grass roots movement can be >started to seed the idea. >If I get enough mail on this, I will post the idea to the net soon. I may >anyway. I've never read it, but I suspect the idea is similar to Stallman's >GNU Manifesto. Why post this without telling us the magic system? From what I know, it's relatively similar. I believe Stallman feels that programs for the mass audience should be freely available, and programmers can make money doing specialized applications for employers who need such. Consultant fees are a major source of his income. As such, he and his are doing just that with the whole GNU project. >In a society where 90% cooperate, the 10% who maintain secrecy will be left >behind. Unfortunately, shareware authors will tell you just how many cooperate. There is a perfect example of what happens when information is truly free, but authors should be compensated... the isolated successes of programs like PC-Write aren't indicative of the entire system. >Dan Hankins ------ Andrew Bell, living a double life at bell@cs.unc.edu and acb@cs.duke.edu "Why can't we ever attempt to solve a problem in this country without having a 'War' on it?" -Rich Thomson, talk.politics.misc
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (12/11/88)
Kurt Guntheroth was asking (paraphrased) " ... why not offer cash prizes for turning in pirates ..." ... Earlier this year (1988), I understood that SPA (Software Publishers Ass'n) was offering a $50 bounty to people who reported thieves' (e.g. "pirates", though why glorify scum with such a name?) BBS' and other operations. I heard the program ($50 bounty) was successful re: closing down such BBS operations in Washington and Oregon, and the present focus is California. Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (kevin lee smathers) (12/11/88)
> > >In article <1034@hub.ucsb.edu>, hbo@sbphy.ucsb.edu (Howard B. Owen) writes: >> Brenner's point that most of the comp.sys.amiga folks are professionals >> with larger than average Amiga hardware budgets is well taken. Personally, >> I feel like I fall through a crack in the middle of CBM's marketing strategy. >> I like my hard disk and extra RAM, but I want to run the fast games too. >> I don't want to have to give up one for the other, but it seems that in >> many cases they are mutually exclusive. > > >Well maybe you people are too serious for Dungeon Maser in that case. Or >Starglider II. Both to me are marvelous games, and if your complaining, >then you're just nitpicking and you'll never be happy anyway. You can't >have everything... >-- >What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek >nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu >radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu On the contrary, I am quite happy with most of the sofware I am currently running. Here are some examples of enjoyable games. With all of the programming expertise that went into DM, please don't tell me that they *couldn't* have left it unprotected even if they had wanted to: Bard's Tale Moria Shanghai Infocom Adventures (all of them) (Moria is listed above, and is somewhat *more* complex than DM. It is absurd to claim that programs such as DM can't be made to coexist with the operating system when something as complex as Moria does, and doesn't have a paid staff for development.) -kls -Sullivan Segall _____________________________________________________________ /V\ Sully set the example: to fly without moving. We shall ' learn to soar on wings of thought. And the student will surpass the teacher. To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _____________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com
rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rick Francis Golembiewski) (12/12/88)
>In the old days pirates were hunted down, tried (sometimes) and hung. >We can be a little more lenient, but if your neighbor next door or the kid >down the street were caught and fined, their friends and neighbors might >be a little less inclined to steal software. Isn't that a bit too drastic? After all I don't really think that Copying software really is as damaging to society as drug abuse. Also if you did the do the above, I can assure you that you will indeed strike fear into people, however probabily the potential ligitamate users who will decide that they can really live with out a computer, since computer owners are such immoral criminals... >It works for common thieves, why not software thieves as well. Last time I looked there was still 'common thieves' out there, in fact many of out jails are releasing them because there is not enough space for this type of criminal. Seriously folks, I really don't think that software piracy is cause enough to make our society into a police state such as Orwell's 1984, where everyone betrays everyone else. +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Disclaimer: Me? Post That, impossible I never post anything... | | TypetoYouLater(Everyone); --> "functional Good bye".... | | Rick Golembiewski [ Pronunciation is half the Battle, spelling the other] | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (12/12/88)
in article <1341@leah.Albany.Edu>, jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) says: > In article <AXbQRyy00VsfIJfVBC@andrew.cmu.edu>, mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) writes: >> The operating system is there for a reason. I won't use any piece of software >> that is so arrogant it thinks it owns the machine, and I'm sure most of the >> readers of this group feel the same way. Perhaps you should learn to program >> efficiently using the resources the operating system provides. > I have to disagree. Some programs simply couldn't be made without > by-passing the OS routines. I really doubt that anything in the Amiga OS > could draw the shapes in Starglider II fast enough. I know this is true > on the ST and have no reason to think its different on the Amy. Ah, but the Amiga OS has provisions for giving you your own private screen (on which you can scribble as you please, without going through the OS), and even provisions for using hardware devices such as the Blitter directly -- WITHOUT blowing all other running programs completely out of the water. I've looked at the source code to PixMate, which does blazingly fast image processing... what he does it grab the Blitter, send it making multiple passes over his AllocMem'ed screen doing logical operations, and presto. You can't get any closer to the hardware than that -- yet the program coexists with all other Amiga programs, and, in fact, actually has provisions for grabbing screens from co-running paint programs! And if your game absolutely MUST take complete control of the system, there was a paper the CATS folks released at a recent Devcon describing how to do it in a POLITE way, i.e. return the system back to Workbench etc. when you're finished. I've never seen StarGlider II (or much of any other Amiga games -- heck, I don't even have a color monitor!), but I seriously doubt that it would have been much worse if it was polite, although it might have required occasional overlays on 512K machines. -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 "We have treatments for disturbed persons, Nicholas. But, at least for the moment, we have no treatment for disturbing persons." -- Dr. Island
doug@homxc.UUCP (D.SULPY) (12/12/88)
Circumstance 1: User is playing game, wants to check progress of
download really quickly. Continues with game. So if the game is realtime
check to see if it is also the front most screen. IF it isn't and
hasn't been for more that 2 seconds, go to sleep and refuse to wake up
for more than 5 minutes, satisfying circumstance 2.
-Sullivan Segall
--------
Awk! Don't give these guys any MORE stupid ideas, O.K.? john@frog.UUCP (John Woods) (12/12/88)
In article <1334@leah.Albany.Edu>, jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: > In article <2363@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > > All it takes is ONE company that doesn't cripple their products -- and all > > of the cripple-ware firms' business dries up overnight. > Yep, even though they may be the better software company... > The cripple-ware company writes programs that don't run at all on my hardware. The non-cripple-ware company writes programs that do run on my hardware. Yup, the cripple-ware company writes better software for me to use. Yup. Methinks you aren't paying attention to something... -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (508) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, john@frog.UUCP, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw@eddie.mit.edu Go be a `traves wasswort. - Doug Gwyn
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/13/88)
In article <12447@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >Kurt Guntheroth was asking (paraphrased) " ... why not offer cash prizes for >turning in pirates ..." ... > >Earlier this year (1988), I understood that SPA (Software Publishers Ass'n) >was offering a $50 bounty to people who reported thieves' (e.g. "pirates", >though why glorify scum with such a name?) BBS' and other operations. > >I heard the program ($50 bounty) was successful re: closing down such BBS >operations in Washington and Oregon, and the present focus is California. As a publisher, let me say that I think we'd be more than willing to offer 5% of the recovery goes to the "snitch"; in addition, I'd even be willing to keep the "snitch"'s identity confidential (although this might drastically affect the chance of persuing the thief; the snitch can always come forward publically to ensure they get paid off :-) 5% of the $10,000 possible per violation ought to wake some people up -- sure, you won't get paid every time you snitch on your employer/pirate/etc, but the few times you do......I mean, that's $500 per violation! And we know how many violations the average teen pirate commits, right? Catch that kid (or the law office) with 300 pirated disks and you can say goodbye to Mom & Dad's (or Mr. Lawyers) home (office) building..... Sure, the kids can't be stopped by suing them -- they don't have anything to lose! But the PARENTS have something to lose, and our legal system makes parents accountable for their children's actions. In fact, perhaps we ought to start such a program for our software; who knows if it's being pirated (we've never seen a rogue copy, but I assume there are a few). -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
john13@garfield.MUN.EDU (John Russell) (12/13/88)
In article <6268@fluke.COM> kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) writes: >I wonder why companies don't offer cash rewards for "information leading to >the arrest and conviction" of software pirates. ... >Nahh. I must have missed something. This looks too easy. Yeah, the first person to take advantage of the offer will be the Byte Bandit or some other sleazoid who's copied everything ever written, who will turn in all the people he knows who have 1-2 pieces of pirated software (and he probably gave them to them!). John -- "The sinuous roots meshed together... the sun-dappled leaves... the arching branches... and put it all together? Nothing! Icky, icky tree!" -- something like that anyway; from "The Kids in the Hall"
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (12/13/88)
Someone wrote : >In the old days pirates were hunted down, tried (sometimes) and hung. >We can be a little more lenient, but if your neighbor next door or the kid >down the street were caught and fined, their friends and neighbors might >be a little less inclined to steal software. In another article (Rick Francis Golembiewski) commented: >Isn't that a bit too drastic? After all I don't really think that >Copying software really is as damaging to society as drug abuse. >Also if you did the do the above, I can assure you that you will >indeed strike fear into people, however probabily the potential ligitamate >users who will decide that they can really live with out a computer, >since computer owners are such immoral criminals... Yes and no. The fine for pirating software should be the list price of that software. In a completely idealistic world, if you were accused of pirating software the court would give you 10 days to come up with a registered copy of the specified program, if you couldn't you would pay the fine of $X where X is the price of the software, and any court costs associated with this, plus be required to destroy all copies of the software in your possesion. Simple no? The pirate is either discouraged or the software company gets their money. >>It works for common thieves, why not software thieves as well. >Last time I looked there was still 'common thieves' out there, in >fact many of out jails are releasing them because there is not >enough space for this type of criminal. Actually, I'd probably write the law such that the fine would be preferred instead of jail unless you couldn't pay of course. Then we'd just confiscate your hardware. If it discouraged pirates from buying computers I wouldn't mind that either. Because electronic communications can't convey the intention of an article, one can never be sure of how it was "meant." In the case of Rick's article, when I read it I got a feeling of "Gee, pirates are just poor folks who wouldn't buy your software anyway why come down on them like murderers or something." And the answer in my opinion is that pirates really are scum of the earth type of people who shouldn't be tolerated. Being tolerant of such activities is equivalent to condoning them. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
bill@bilver.UUCP (bill vermillion) (12/13/88)
In article <3080@sugar.uu.net> karl@sugar.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) writes: > >You're right. Although person-to-person piracy is nearly impossible to >detect, what allows pirate boards to operate so blatantly is they are not >being prosecuted for copyright violations. If the government would crack ^^^^^^^^^^ >down on them, they would have to keep their boards secret, and this would >reduce their ability to proliferate pirated software. Uh! - Don't know if you noticed it or not, but we are not in a police state. The government has no right to "crack down" on these boards. The ones who have to do something are the copyright owners. They have to file a complaint, and then the "government" - read that as the judicial system - can haul the offenders in. Copyright violation are crimes against individuals and not society. -- Bill Vermillion - UUCP: {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd}!peora!rtmvax!bilver!bill : bill@bilver.UUCP
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (12/13/88)
Looks like this is "piracy message" time. Yea, that happens almost every 12 months. I've seen it so many times, I guess I'm growing old :-) Time to put it in my KILL file. -- Marco Papa 'Doc' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= uucp:...!pollux!papa BIX:papa ARPAnet:pollux!papa@oberon.usc.edu "There's Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Diga!" -- Leo Schwab [quoting Rick Unland] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
jxc@rayssdb.ray.com (Jeffrey J. Clesius) (12/14/88)
In article <218@algedi.UUCP> kenk@algedi.UUCP (Ken Koster N7IPB) writes: >In article <jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: > >SCENE 1 >>10:1. A neighboor with an ST in my home town had EVERY single software >>title ever released. He called himself a collector; 90% of his stuff was >>pirated. > >Did you turn him in to the police? SCENE 1.A: A neighbor sees that you have a computer and reports you as having stolen software in your possession. The police break down your door and ask you to produce receipts for EVERY PIECE OF SOFTWARE YOU OWN! Can you do it? (Just because the disks have commercial labels does not mean the software isn't stolen!) Is this what you want? Freedoms have their costs. Some guilty must go free to avoid the innocent being punished. I agree that something should be done to hinder piracy; as a former game co-author, (anyone remember Commbat?) I truly understand the losses from piracy. But, respectfully, yours is not the desired solution. ------------ >Ken Koster or uunet!pilchuck!algedi!kenk >A lone Unix-pc Home: Amiga uunet!pilchuck!algedi!kkami!kenk >in the MSDOS swamp Packet Radio: N7IPB@N7IPB ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________ | / /_ | "For every action there is an equal / / / and opposite litigation procedure." / From the desk of: ---------------------------------------------------- /________ / / Jeffrey Jay Clesius, Raytheon Submarine Signal Division /_________/ | 1847 West Main Road, Mail Stop 188 | Portsmouth, RI (401) 847-8000 (X4015) -----------------+---------------------------------------------------------- { allegra | gatech | mirror | raybed2 } ----\ { linus | ihnp4 | uiucdcs } -------------->!rayssd!jxc jxc@rayssd.ray.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- === Standard disclaimers apply ===
jim@athsys.uucp (Jim Becker) (12/14/88)
From article <81277@sun.uucp>, by cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis): [ fines for pirates discussed ] > > Yes and no. The fine for pirating software should be the list price of > that software. In a completely idealistic world, if you were accused of > pirating software the court would give you 10 days to come up with a > registered copy of the specified program, if you couldn't you would > pay the fine of $X where X is the price of the software, and any > court costs associated with this, plus be required to destroy all > copies of the software in your possesion. Simple no? The pirate > is either discouraged or the software company gets their money. Expand this argument to the real world, Chuck. Let's assume that this were the case with normal stealing. Then, at most, shoplifters would have to act as normal consumers and buy what they were going to steal. There would be no penalty for the crime in this case, simply making the person be honest with the bucks. Doesn't sound like too good of an idea to me. If you try to make a living off this machine, rather than being an observer with a normal income, you would want to see pirates beheaded. > > --Chuck McManis -Jim Becker
wdao@castor.usc.edu (Walter Dao) (12/14/88)
After having seen and used a lot of programs and Demos (sound + music), I
will say that I prefer by far the one that took over the machine.
It's like comparing the freeby demo that comes with every disk (lines, dots,
rectangle) of the workbench and these european demos.
How about the games ? I hate the games the leave that ugly window top border
on ... and they usually use a drab (mean ugly yuck pallette of colors.)
I got myself an amiga because of the 68000 inside and the blitter
accompanying it . Not becaUSE of the fancy multitasking S L O W piece of
sloppy code (reason for ARP) called AMIGADOS.
I wanted to sail close to the wind. Not have some stupid machine (or blind
user) tell me Not to do that because the rules said not to .
Like having a porcshe but being told to drive at 55 on the freeway ? (who
does ?)
so , go ahead write directly to the hardware . (dont leave that luxury only
to the CBM programmers. they wrote the HArdware manual so that we can use
it . so let's do it !!!) .
a software booting with a fast loading hires picture and playing some
funky piece of music will ALWAYS grab my attention.
Remember, not all amiga users are developpers (or usenet type of users).
they are the minority.
piracy in Denmark ? hmmm lots of pirate groups are originating from there.
piracy status here in the states ? all the c-64 users are getting amigas
now.
softwares "distribution done by bbs, pirate groups from europe having
"connections" here and having funky names like CHAMPS/USA , CHAMPS/CANADA
etc...
by the way , wares that take over the machine CAN work with hard disk and
memory expansions . One does not rule out the other.
finally :
reward for pirate busting ?
well after he had denounced some name, the snitch will be on the hit list ,
unable to get on any "GOOD" bbs. and treated like SH*T by other fellow
bbs'er (hate mail etc...)
some guy compared software copying to drug dealing . hmmmm does s/w kill
people ? between the two evils, (you HAVE to choose one ... ) would
you rather have a loved one copy wares or bust his brain on Crack, freebasing
from here to hell ?
Technology gave us the means, so use it ! and even better ABUSE it !
D W
8-# peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/14/88)
In article <81277@sun.uucp>, cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: > pirating software the court would give you 10 days to come up with a > registered copy of the specified program, if you couldn't you would > pay the fine of $X where X is the price of the software, and any > court costs associated with this, plus be required to destroy all > copies of the software in your possesion. Let's make that "You would be required to buy the software for $X, where X is the *List Price*". Nobody in their right mind would dream of taking the risk of having to pay list for software. (smileys, OK?) -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: My typos are my own damn busines#!rne
hpchang@ziebmef.uucp (Hsi P. Chang) (12/14/88)
Regarding to Piracy that everyone is talking about. I think we need to keep in mind why alot of people DO pirate. It's simple, the value of the Software is not worth the cost it asks for. I mean, how many times have you purchased a new spiffy looking game and finds it later to be complete junk !! There goes megabucks down the tube.. Yes, I do copy protected software, but I junk them after seeing they are not worth it. I do award programmers who put out a good package by buying them. For example, The Bards Tale II. Love it, bought it, still stuck on Snare #7. Hey, this program is not even copy protected.... I know that this is no reason to pirate, but I do wish that the license agreement on commercial softwares allows return of the package if not satiscatory to the user. Don't flame me. Like I said, my philosophy is just to try out the program before pucking out megabucks. Most dealers in this part of the world hate demostrating any software. I honestly believe that a good program shall be rewarded, but a bad one can go down the tubes....
disd@hubcap.UUCP (Gary Heffelfinger) (12/15/88)
From article <2149@nunki.usc.edu>, by wdao@castor.usc.edu (Walter Dao): > After having seen and used a lot of programs and Demos (sound + music), I > will say that I prefer by far the one that took over the machine. > It's like comparing the freeby demo that comes with every disk (lines, dots, > rectangle) of the workbench and these european demos. > How about the games ? I hate the games the leave that ugly window top border > on ... and they usually use a drab (mean ugly yuck pallette of colors.) And I hate the games that force me to reboot after every use. I'm not using a C64 anymore. Take a look at Omnitrend's Paladin. This is an example of a well done game that uses the system correctly. It is pretty, it uses a word lookup form of protection that is done once at the start of the game, it does not need to take over my machine, and it runs very well on my hard disk. I am much more likely to play it than any game which forces me to reboot. Oh, and it is not necessary to throw away the OS in order to remove the "ugly window top border". > I got myself an amiga because of the 68000 inside and the blitter > accompanying it . Not becaUSE of the fancy multitasking S L O W piece of > sloppy code (reason for ARP) called AMIGADOS. Oh, come on. AmigaDOS has nothing what so ever to do with multitasking. Exec handles this and does it elegantly. The old file system is slow, but this has nothing to do with Exec. Oh, and ARP *is* very well done. It works well *with* the system, not against it. It doesn't take over the machine, and it doesn't throw out the OS. > I wanted to sail close to the wind. Not have some stupid machine (or blind Sail close to the wind. Why must a programmer be sloppy and inconsiderate of his users to "sail close to the wind?" Seems to me that some pretty impressive sailing is being done already. If you build the ship well enough, you won't need as much wind to propel you at the desired speed. (As long as we're using meaningless metaphors. :-) > user) tell me Not to do that because the rules said not to . Blind users? I see the Amiga's developers as visionaries, not as blind men and women. By calling us blind, you are calling them blind, and nothing could be further from the truth. > Like having a porcshe but being told to drive at 55 on the freeway ? (who > does ?) I look at it more like having a Porsche when I need it, or having two Hyundai Excels when I need them, or having 3 pickup trucks when I need them. You get the idea. (Or do you?) > > so , go ahead write directly to the hardware . (dont leave that luxury only > to the CBM programmers. they wrote the HArdware manual so that we can use > it . so let's do it !!!) . Oh fercrissake, don't "Peek" and "Poke". When CBM changes things around, things will break, and once again Ami will get blasted for not being reliable. > a software booting with a fast loading hires picture and playing some > funky piece of music will ALWAYS grab my attention. What's to stop you? This is the nature of multitasking. I've seen this done before, and rules were not broken in the process. > Remember, not all amiga users are developpers (or usenet type of users). > they are the minority. True, but neither are they all 13 year old boys who go "ooooh" and "ahhhhh" over the latest "rully rad" game. As more Amiga users get hard disks, (and they will) fewer and fewer people will be willing to put up with the rebooting after every application nonsense. > by the way , wares that take over the machine CAN work with hard disk and > memory expansions . One does not rule out the other. Really? If you throw out the OS, how is your program going to know about my hard disk? And even if you can find my hard disk, do I want you f*cking with it, and the rest of the data on it, by using your "under the table" means? And if by "take over" you simply mean, forcing me to boot with your possibly heavily protected boot disk, how do I get the device drivers associated with my hard disk into their proper places? And don't talk to me about "dedicated partitions". I have my HD partitioned just like I want it, thank you, so don't even think about forcing me to change things for every gee whiz game that comes along. > finally : > reward for pirate busting ? > well after he had denounced some name, the snitch will be on the hit list , > unable to get on any "GOOD" bbs. and treated like SH*T by other fellow > bbs'er (hate mail etc...) Sounds like you need to find some better friends. :-) I don't like the snitch method of "pirate busting" either. I prefer education. It worked with me, it worked with a friend of mine, it can work for others. > > Technology gave us the means, so use it ! and even better ABUSE it ! I'm not even going to touch this one, lest I burst a blood vessel in my brain. Gary (Who has been in an argumentative mood lately. This too shall pass.) -- Gary R Heffelfinger - Not speaking for Clemson University
charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) (12/15/88)
>>>In the old days pirates were hunted down, tried (sometimes) and hung. >>>We can be a little more lenient, but if your neighbor next door or the kid >>>down the street were caught and fined, their friends and neighbors might >>>be a little less inclined to steal software. >>Isn't that a bit too drastic? ... >Yes and no. The fine for pirating software should be the list price of >that software. ... >Simple no? The pirate >is either discouraged or the software company gets their money. Wrong. This does not discourage the pirate. Why bother ever paying for software when the cost of getting caught is merely paying for the software. Why should anyone else (including police OR well meaning witnesses) go to the expense, effort, and risk of exposing this thief if all the thief will have to do is pay for what he should have paid for in the first place. If the probability of getting caught is 1/100, and the cost of the product is $100, then the cost of getting caught needs to be GREATER THAN 100*$100 or $10000 to be effective. Think of it a a simple gamble. If the fine is less than this, then the theft is on the average a good gamble. -- Charles Brown charles%hpcvca@hplabs.hp.com Not representing my employer.
griff@intelob.intel.com (Richard Griffith) (12/15/88)
In article <555@icus.islp.ny.us> eric@icus.UUCP () writes: > > >Hmmm This Bit about FTL and copywritten Save files and >peoeples replies to it have made me decide to write A note. [ some outstanding points deleted ] > > Eric Hyman | ...att \ > | boulder \ > eric @ icus | talcott !icus!eric > | pacbell / > | sbcs / This might surprise you, Eric, but I agree. I know several people who regularly copy software, as I'm sure, you do. I know one guy who copies software, not because he uses it, but becasue he COLLECTS it. He must have every shareware, freeware, etc. program on the market, yet, I think he uses maybe 7-10 programs *total* (fortunately, at my insistance, he has purchased most of those...). I suggest a different strategy for software in general. Many people have yet another reason for "pirating". It is relatively easy to produce a box that is intriguing enough to get someone to buy the software. Just put good enough pictures on a game, enough of a feature list on an application...etc. Some of that software is, let's face it, *expensive*. Few people make enough money to drop $150-200 on a product, only to find out that the box was the best feature of the product, or that it had so many bugs as to be useless. Software companies (again, the old-chicken-and-egg problem) can't afford to say "ok, the product wasn't what you wanted - here's your money back...", because of piracy! People want to "try before they buy". This is why I was ready to purchase Dungeon Master, until I read the net. (See? even a good "free" demo isn't always enough to give you the info you need on a program... altho, it's better than nothing) I have urged people that I know who copy stuff to buy it if they like it. (One of those, by the way, bought Kampfgruppe....so when are you gonna do Mech Brigade and Sixth Fleet? I'll buy those sight unseen based on what I have seen of Kg! :-) ) - keep it up, if you can! :-) - griff ************************************************************************** * Richard E. Griffith * "Someday soon we'll stop to ponder - * * "griff" * What on Earth's this spell we're under? * * BiiN, Hillsboro Ore. * We made the grade, but still we wonder - * * (When are we getting * Who the Hell we are?" * * Our own Usenet node?) * - Styx "Grand Illusion" * **************************************************************************
jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) (12/15/88)
In article <3889@hubcap.UUCP>, disd@hubcap.UUCP (Gary Heffelfinger) writes: > And I hate the games that force me to reboot after every use. I'm not > using a C64 anymore. Take a look at Omnitrend's Paladin. This is an > example of a well done game that uses the system correctly. It is > pretty, it uses a word lookup form of protection that is done once at > the start of the game, it does not need to take over my machine, and it > runs very well on my hard disk. I am much more likely to play it than > any game which forces me to reboot. Personally I like games that entertain me... Paladin is a product of a poor imagination and classroom programming, there's nothing special about it. The game play is a drag. You cannot possibly compare it to Dungeon Master. So DM takes over the machine, big deal. It's a great game, and that's what matters to me. Have you seen it? > Sail close to the wind. Why must a programmer be sloppy and > inconsiderate of his users to "sail close to the wind?" You're telling me that Jez San who wrote Starglider II is a sloppy programmer? Ha! Lets see you do three dimentional (filled!) graphix that move like that! > > Like having a porcshe but being told to drive at 55 on the freeway ? (who > > does ?) > I look at it more like having a Porsche when I need it, or having two > Hyundai Excels when I need them, or having 3 pickup trucks when I need > them. You get the idea. (Or do you?) I'd say you need a Porsche with things like DM, Dragon's Lair, and Starglider II. These programs are not Amoeba, you know... > > a software booting with a fast loading hires picture and playing some > > funky piece of music will ALWAYS grab my attention. > What's to stop you? This is the nature of multitasking. I've seen this > done before, and rules were not broken in the process. This I'm not sure on (does the Amiga handle this?), but unless a sample takes over the system momentarily, it will certainly not work. (It has to be, after all, a continuous, regular flow of data). So games which use sampled scores and sounds throughout would have to take the system over anyway. (I may be wrong, the sound chip may take care of the rates, so please correct me if you know.) > > Remember, not all amiga users are developpers (or usenet type of users). > > they are the minority. > True, but neither are they all 13 year old boys who go "ooooh" and "ahhhhh" > over the latest "rully rad" game. Some are developers and like good games too... Besides, DM too me is more than "rad". It's a marvel and a breakthrough in design. Same applies to Starglider II. > As more Amiga users get hard disks, (and they will) fewer and fewer > people will be willing to put up with the rebooting after every > application nonsense. Speak for yourself. I don't mind waiting a minute or two. It's not going to ruin my life... :-) > If you throw out the OS, how is your program going to know about my > hard disk? And even if you can find my hard disk, do I want you f*cking > with it, and the rest of the data on it, by using your "under the table" > means? This is true. I would certainly not trust such a deal with my data. > > reward for pirate busting ? > > well after he had denounced some name, the snitch will be on the hit list , > > unable to get on any "GOOD" bbs. and treated like SH*T by other fellow > > bbs'er (hate mail etc...) I don't understand the point here. What the heck is a "GOOD" bbs to this guy? :-) > > Technology gave us the means, so use it ! and even better ABUSE it ! > I'm not even going to touch this one, lest I burst a blood vessel in my > brain. Me neither. Sometimes I feel like I'm on the wrong side here... :-) To close, I see all the points people have made about how it would be nice if some of these programs lived with the multi-tasking environment, blah blah, blah blah blah... What got me a little peeved was the fact that several of these people were using these arguments to rationalize piracy (hypocrits! A copied or cracked version will STILL take over your system, in 99% of the cases); others have never even SEEN the games they are flaming (maybe they'd change their minds.) To me its the GAME that matters. Does it entertain me? Does it enthrall me? Who cares if it takes over my machine. I'm sure that the three games (not Paladin, yuck) I mentioned here make good use of it. -- What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu
amorando@euler.uucp (Alexander R. Morando) (12/15/88)
I wrote two long articles that I junked because they sounded too whiny. Here is my $.02: Good luck if you are going to try and make a living on the Amiga, and you are an individual. It's practically impossible, what with the computer magazines not printing announcements, high cost of advertising, and general apathy all around. Good look trying to contact big publishers/developers like Electronic Arts and Epyx. You probably have to suck up to them royally to get them to listen to you. You're best bet is contacting the small, just-starting- out houses, who have not become so big that they cannot dart and weave in the microcomputer market. Disk based copy protection does not work and only incites to anger software buyers and spur on pirates. I am still seething at Emerald Mine's flaky protection that 95% of the time hangs. But I love the game...although I haven't played it since I finished every level. Computer stores are the sources of a lot of piracy. They often leave disks lying around. It is possible to copy RIGHT UNDER THEIR NOSE, dealer versions of software that are not copy protected. I know one store in particular, that I would rather not receive copies of any of my software... The average person is always looking for a way to save money. Given the opportunity, he will pirate software. He would feel like a patsy if he went into the store and bought it, when he could get it for free. A lot of people pirate software so they can look at it. If they like the software enough, they will go out and purchase a legitimate copy. There is a lot to be said about piracy in this form. It allows potential buyers to test-drive stuff, without the hassle of dealing with money-back guarantees. I would feel uncomfortable going into a software store and asking for my money back, knowing that the store thinks that I probably duplicated the software while I had it, even though I didn't. How often can you do that to the same store? After a while, they will probably change their policy, or will refuse to sell you software, or will be snotty to you. I am a developer, but I don't hate pirates. I don't hate piracy. It is a problem, and I don't have any solution to it. Perhaps some actual arrests, infiltration, or levying some of those big $10,000 fines would scare some people and make a difference. It seems that society doesn't care if piracy is going on, because society is represented 99+% by people who are potential pirates. I think it is important to knock down big pirating groups and pirate BBS's. Just exposing them and giving them a warning is enough to change them. Expecting citizens to rat on their friends is rediculous. No one would do that. In one of my games, Targis, there is type-in-the-word copy protection, like on Digi-paint and Starglider-II and others. I don't know how effective that is, but I do know it will always work. Also I know that since I usually go to the hardware directly, my programs will always work, even if they change the software to 1.4,1.5,etc. And I know that I am getting the most out of the Amiga. Believe me, go to the hardware even if it isn't convenient. All the best software does. JUST BE ABLE TO BACK OUT, SO THE USER DOES NOT HAVE TO REBOOT. It is ok to take over the display while the game is running, BUT DON'T DISABLE MULTI-TASKING. Oh well. Life is a game I play to win. David Ashley amorando@euler.berkeley.edu
disd@hubcap.UUCP (Gary Heffelfinger) (12/16/88)
From article <1379@leah.Albany.Edu>, by jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek): > In article <3889@hubcap.UUCP>, disd@hubcap.UUCP (Gary Heffelfinger) writes: >> And I hate the games that force me to reboot after every use. I'm not > > Personally I like games that entertain me... Paladin is a product of a > poor imagination and classroom programming, there's nothing special > about it. The game play is a drag. You cannot possibly compare it to Hmm. Do I recall correctly that you are chap who writes war games? Or am I mistaking you for someone else? I can see where fans of highly indepth war games would be disappointed. I'm unfortunately not one such fan. Paladin is about all the war strategy this poor mind can handle. :-) Also, why do I always see the words "lack of imagination" and "classroom programming" together? Is it impossible for well trained programmers to be imaginative? I'm not going to argue with you about the merits (or lack of merits) of Paladin, but I'm curious about this view that I seem to have noted. Folks imply that only those brave and adventuresome souls who "sail close to the wind" can have the right stuff when it comes to writing creative and imaginative programs. Is this necessarily true? Are we brainwashing our college students and putting them into mental straitjackets? > Dungeon Master. So DM takes over the machine, big deal. It's a great > game, and that's what matters to me. Have you seen it? Just the demo, and like I say, it blew me away. And I will quite probably buy it. So call me a hypocrite. :-) But I can wish, hope and pray that developers who are designing games that do not have to hijack my machine, will not do so. >> Sail close to the wind. Why must a programmer be sloppy and >> inconsiderate of his users to "sail close to the wind?" > > You're telling me that Jez San who wrote Starglider II is a sloppy > programmer? Ha! Lets see you do three dimentional (filled!) graphix that > move like that! Okay, okay. Sloppy may have been a bad choice of word. But I stand by "inconsiderate". If Starglider II (which I have not seen BTW) breaks the next time C= makes a small change to a chip, because Jez broke a rule to gain a few nanoseconds, then I think s/he was inconsiderate. >> > Like having a porcshe but being told to drive at 55 on the freeway ? (who >> > does ?) >> I look at it more like having a Porsche when I need it, or having two >> Hyundai Excels when I need them, or having 3 pickup trucks when I need >> them. You get the idea. (Or do you?) > > I'd say you need a Porsche with things like DM, Dragon's Lair, and > Starglider II. These programs are not Amoeba, you know... Okay this is based on hearsay, but I would agree with you regarding Starglider II. I'm told that there's a lot going on there. However, unless there's a *lot* more going on with the real DM than there was in the demo, I think that it could've been set up so that we download junkies could do our thing while playing it. >> > a software booting with a fast loading hires picture and playing some >> > funky piece of music will ALWAYS grab my attention. >> What's to stop you? This is the nature of multitasking. I've seen this >> done before, and rules were not broken in the process. > > This I'm not sure on (does the Amiga handle this?), but unless a sample > takes over the system momentarily, it will certainly not work. (It has > to be, after all, a continuous, regular flow of data). So games which > use sampled scores and sounds throughout would have to take the system > over anyway. (I may be wrong, the sound chip may take care of the rates, > so please correct me if you know.) I'm gonna back off on this one myself. I have seen games load while a pretty picture is being shown, and pretty music is being played, but I do not know that the program wasn't doing anything "bad". I'm thinking specifically of Rocket Ranger. >> True, but neither are they all 13 year old boys who go "ooooh" and "ahhhhh" >> over the latest "rully rad" game. > > Some are developers and like good games too... Besides, DM too me is > more than "rad". It's a marvel and a breakthrough in design. Same Okay, I'll concede that DM is a marvel. (I've gone through the demo dozens of times.) >> As more Amiga users get hard disks, (and they will) fewer and fewer >> people will be willing to put up with the rebooting after every >> application nonsense. > > Speak for yourself. I don't mind waiting a minute or two. It's not going > to ruin my life... :-) No, it won't ruin any lives, but it does a number on that ray traced picture I've got cooking on the back burner. :-) > are flaming (maybe they'd change their minds.) To me its the GAME that > matters. Does it entertain me? Does it enthrall me? Who cares if it > takes over my machine. I'm sure that the three games (not Paladin, yuck) > I mentioned here make good use of it. Yes the game does matter. Yes it should entertain and enthrall. *I* care if it takes over my machine when it wouldn't have to. Hoping Santa has copy of DM for me...... Gary -- Gary R Heffelfinger - Not speaking for Clemson University disd@hubcap.clemson.edu -- FIX the Holodeck --
keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) (12/16/88)
After all this tirading about games that won't work on hard disks or
while tele-downloading, has anyone compiled a comprehensive list of
the various games and how they fare? Perhaps we need a rating system:
XXX - Totally takes over machine and forces you to power off to reset
afterwards. This program is totally obscene.
X - Takes over machine, won't multitask, must reboot afterwards.
R - takes over machine while running, won't multitask, cleans up when done.
PG - doesn't take over machine, multitasks but makes life difficult due
to game side-effects (uses mouse port, requires disk inserted in
floppy at all times, etc.)
G - doesn't take over machine, multitasks well, fun for the entire family.
Keith Doyle
keithd@gryphon.COM gryphon!keithd gryphon!keithd@elroy.jpl.nasa.govdan-hankins@cup.portal.com (Daniel B Hankins) (12/16/88)
In article <2149@nunki.usc.edu> wdao@castor.usc.edu (Walter Dao) writes: >How about the games ? I hate the games the leave that ugly window top border >on ... and they usually use a drab (mean ugly yuck pallette of colors.) This can be solved by using custom screens. >...fancy multitasking S L O W piece of sloppy code (reason for ARP) called >AMIGADOS. Agreed, AmigaDos (as originally conceived) is sloppy and slow. It was put together in an awful hurry by MetaComCo. However, AmyDos does not multitask. Exec multitasks. Exec is a speed demon. The games that take over the machine for speed often continue to use it. If you want speed while co-existing with AmyDos and WorkBench, etc. peacefully, there are ways to do it. You can get every cycle the 68000 and the hardware support has to offer without wiping out the OS. A simple-minded example comes to mind. Just set the priority of all the other tasks in the system to -128. When you need one of them (such as trackdisk.device), temporarily raise its priority to the normal level while using it. The rules don't make one go slow. The real reason people take over the machine is that it makes their programming job a bit easier. They have less to worry about if they wipe out all competition. >a software booting with a fast loading hires picture and playing some >funky piece of music will ALWAYS grab my attention. As stated above, you don't need to take over the machine to do this. >Remember, not all amiga users are developpers (or usenet type of users). >they are the minority. So? Even the 'end users' I know prefer software that doesn't kill their OS. >by the way , wares that take over the machine CAN work with hard disk and >memory expansions . One does not rule out the other. Not unless you want to include in your game ten zillion device drivers to support ten zillion different hard disks. This is what Dragon's Lair attempted to do. Unfortunately, only COMSPEC answered their queries. So the COMSPEC drive is the only hard drive that Dragon's Lair will work with. >reward for pirate busting ? I can't say I am crazy about bounty-hunting software pirates - some are just people who want to review software before buying it. And there is another solution to piracy - see my article with the subject 'FREE Software' or something of the sort. >Technology gave us the means, so use it ! and even better ABUSE it ! I don't think I'll dignify this by arguing with it. Dan Hankins
dan-hankins@cup.portal.com (Daniel B Hankins) (12/16/88)
In article <1379@leah.Albany.Edu> jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: >You're telling me that Jez San who wrote Starglider II is a sloppy >programmer? Ha! Lets see you do three dimentional (filled!) graphix that >move like that! I think Starglider II is a special case. Unlike most games, SGII consumes *all* of a 512K machine just to run. It's simply too large to coexist with Workbench and still do what it does. This should be stated on the package, though. And it should be able to be loaded to a harddisk, and to coexist *if* the user has all that extra memory. I have extra memory, and there really isn't a good reason why SGII could not detect this, quiesce the OS (rather than wipe it out entirely), and run mostly in the extra space, allowing me to restart the OS when I'm done with the game - without rebooting. >I'd say you need a Porsche with things like DM, Dragon's Lair, and >Starglider II. These programs are not Amoeba, you know... No, they aren't. But they should be written to take advantage of extra Amiga add-ons if they are there. Okay, take over the machine on a 512K job with one disk drive, etc. But not my 1.5Meg machine - let AmyDos remain, *please*. >This I'm not sure on (does the Amiga handle this?), but unless a sample >takes over the system momentarily, it will certainly not work. Nope, it will work. Load the sample into chip ram, point the DMA at it, then say 'go!' to the sound chip. The 68000 is no longer needed. I have a demo I created which (a) coexists with AmyDos, (b) displays Kahnankas at full speed, and (c) plays a Sonix sampled song at full speed. >that several of these people were using these arguments to rationalize >piracy (hypocrits! A copied or cracked version will STILL take over your I'm not trying to rationalize piracy - I think there's an alternative to the software seller/pirate war that now exists. See my posting with a subject line that begins 'FREE' for details. Dan Hankins
dan-hankins@cup.portal.com (Daniel B Hankins) (12/16/88)
In article <27145@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> amorando@euler.uucp (Alexander R. Morando) writes: >is, but I do know it will always work. Also I know that since I usually go >to the hardware directly, my programs will always work, even if they change >the software to 1.4,1.5,etc. And I know that I am getting the most out of Ummm... what if the user (a) has a non-standard disk drive (b) one of the new graphics boards or a Fat Agnus (c) has a 68020 or '30 (d) a CMI accelerator (e) extra memory (f) any of a number of other hardware configurations Are you ready for all of these and more in your software? Also, on piracy - there is an alternative to the developer/pirate war now being waged. See my posting with a subject line beginning 'FREE' for details. What happens when the only software produced is what comes with the machine and PD and shareware and what you write for yourself? Then my scheme will probably occur to some bright soul - collect money in advance, then develop the program and ship it to the payers with documentation and support, but without copy protection or copyright. The author gets paid, and the pirates are happy (or maybe they aren't - there is no longer the thrill of doing something illegal, or the challenge of defeating the protection). Dan Hankins
jarl@loglule.se (Jarl Sandberg) (12/16/88)
Different analogies to copying software has been offered such as stealing cars and so forth. But what happened to the "real" analogy copying of music? The whole debate can easily be transfered to the world of music and often with the same kind of arguments. In the world of music, customers might have to put up with inferior technologies since the vendors of music are afraid of what might happen. (I refere to the digital audio tape (DAT) which would have made it possible to make almost perfect copies of a CD disc. In the world of video, a VCR was introduced and quickly removed from the market. It had two slots for the tapes, so that it was easy to copy one video cassette onto another. The companies that produced movies didn't like this one (it figures). Are all the pirates the same? I do not think so! There are at least three kinds of "pirates" a/ Those who copy and SELL copies! This is VERY dirty and should be prohibited in any possible way. b/ Those who can't afford to buy a specific item of software (such as students) and make a copy and use it at home (with no intention of making money through selling copies of the program). The first category should be banned, no doubt about that! The second category is harder since it might produce spin-off sales later on when the student has got himself a job... This does however imply one thing. A student who got himself a job and continues to use the pirate copy in his profession should be banned. He (his company) is making money on a pirate copy which, de facto, transfers them to the first category. It might be hard (impossible) to promote laws that makes this distinction but it might not be needed. All I'm saying is the effort to stop pirating should/must be concentrated on the first category since they're stealing the developers efforts. The second category might be considered as marketing costs? (The arguments apply mostly to "proffessional" software, games are a specific kind of software which doesn't fit into my arguments). As a private person I might use pirated software. In my profession, working for a company that produces software I don't use pirated software. That is a strictly NONO! -- Jarl Sandberg Disclaimer: These opinions belong to me and not my company!
comeau@Alliant.COM (John Comeau) (12/17/88)
In article <2087@stiatl.UUCP> john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) writes: > >One of the BEST forms of referral is for one of your customers to make up >a disk for his friend. (gasp!) Yeah! - You're not really TAKING anything from the publishers, You're GIVING them free publicity. >Consider also the fact that your company will get referrals from people who >have "bootleg" copies of your software and have NOT bought a copy. I Wow! - What a generous guy. Those software publishers should be paying YOU! >PC market. Many times as a consultant, I have given a disk to someone to >try of software I have not bought and recommended that they try it and if Of Course! - Giving is a YEAR ROUND proposition, not just Christmas time. >This is the absolute BEST publicity you as a publisher could get. >A locally recognized expert has recommended your product and has given >the person a disk to try. What more could you ask for. Well done! - Those software publishers sould be paying you top dollar for publicity from a RECOGNIZED EXPERT. >I firmly believe that this so-called "piracy" is the root cause for the >original success of all the major horizontal software companies. Take MBA! - Never mind the payments, You deserve STOCK OPTIONS. >ON the other hand, I will not use or buy or recommend any software with >ANY kind of protection scheme, be it disk trickery, phone registration or >embedded names. And I consider these types of packages to be fair game >to anyone who wants to copy them. Outrage! - Those software publishing BASTARDS! (scuse my language. I'm outraged.) Their programs being copied might not be ENOUGH punishment. >>2) Burn purchasers names into programs if you need "protection". >This is also Unacceptable. >Besides screwing yourselves out of the free publicity described above Outrage and pity! - Those STUPID software publishing B******S!! >The case will hit the papers and trade journals and i'll be terribly >embarrised and slandered. You can bet your store on the fact that I'll >be back screaming mad looking for your legal hide. Consider your chances >of convincing a jury of MY peers (fellow software users) that you are >inocent of neglence and slander. For sure. - No Jury that knew what a nice generous guy you are could consider ruling against you. And to slander a fellow with such a philanthopic history - Sue 'em for Millions. >I certainly would not bother with the product. If I cannot buy it, open >the box and run it unfettered with gimmicks, dongles, and the like, I'll >look elsewhere. Your competator will probably have an equivilent product Free enterprise! - The COMPETITOR will get the free publicity. >package to get the docs. Especially so if there are enough docs to >pass the pain threshold at the xerox machine. >An absolutely fatal mistake is for you to unbundle the educational >material and try to sell it as a separate book. The user will then >simply grab a copy of your software and buy the $20.00 book. Absolutely! - Who would want such software? The ONLY way it could be used is if you knew of a bookstore with a xerox machine. >I've got no problem in going after the real theives - those that buy one >copy and then propagate it all over the company - complete with xeroxed >docs. I'd screw those people to the wall. Note that this policy almost >eliminates the private individual as a "pirate". The one exception is >probably the club or user group that sponsors mass copying. Good policy! - Identify the REAL thieves and go after them. >readjust their definition of piracy to exclude casual and/or referral copying >then the problem will magically go away. It's as simle as that. Webster - Call a spade a spade. Piracy is piracy, Publicity is publicity. If you define free publicity as piracy you will see all kinds of problems that really don't exist. It IS as simple as that. >john De Armond Thanks!!!!!!!!!
swordfis@pnet51.cts.com (Tim Mitchell) (12/18/88)
1. I finally got a copy of DungeonMaster, from FTL, into my hot little hands.
I read the manual, and was all set to waste an evening happily gaming, when I
found out the disk didn't work. Now, my guess is that the pirates will have
the game cracked within a couple of months. I am strongly anti-piracy, and it
irks me that the little buggers will have working copies of the disk just for
the asking, while I, a paid user, have to return mine.
Now, I know this isn't earth-shattering. I haven't thrown my money down the
drain, since I can return/exchange the program. But it is* damn inconvenient.
Why should the paid users be made to suffer for the acts of the pirates?
Manual protection seems like a much better idea. Pirates delight in cracking
disks, but I've never heard of the text to a manual being uploaded to a pirate
board. With manual protection, paid users get disks that work*, and (golly!)
can install the games they've paid* for* onto their hard disks. Manual
protection is still* a pain in the -- uh -- neck, but it makes me extremely
nervous to have a $40, or $50, or $60 program at the mercy of the Gods Of
Floppies.
2. This talk of fines and such is all very nice, but first shouldn't you think
about how you're going to catch* the pirates?
Why does everyone seem to think there's more chance of catching software
pirates than there is of catching music and video pirates? Both the music and
film industries are immense, powerful lobbies, and have had strict legislation
passed against the piracy of their products.
Who on here is ready to say: "I've never* taped a song off of an album/CD for
a friend,"? or "I've never taped a movie off of cable and let a friend watch
it,"?
I have a lot of programmer friends who tape albums for each other, and when I
(A professional musician,) point out that they're pirating intellectual
property, take it as a joke. Programmers seem to feel that their intellectual
property is more valid than other sorts.
UUCP: {rosevax, crash}!orbit!pnet51!swordfis
INET: swordfis@pnet51.cts.combrad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (12/18/88)
To answer many points: Q) If they just charged less, people would stop pirating. A) Hah. Just like nobody makes illegal copies of record albums, which cost far less than software could ever cost! Q) I'm not actually taking anything. Nobody's property is removed. A) Wrong. The only thing you *can* do with intellectual property is control it and say how it is to be used. By copying, you are appropriating the owner's only true right. It's theft, plain and simple, equal to (or worse than) any other theft. Q) Worse than other theft? A) Yes. Intellectual property is the truest form of property. There is nothing that is more "yours" than the creations of your own mind. In fact, what's valuable about physical property are the non-tangible things like thought, effort and labour that have gone into turning random matter into valuable property. That's why smashing something to bits (and leaving the owner with the pieces) is just as bad as stealing. The human creation is destroyed. Q) Sometimes pirated copies turn out to be advertising that sells real copies. A) Could be. That's up to the owners to decide. If they think that some free copies might drum up sales, it's entirely up to them to do it. Free samples are nothing new in the conventional industries. But it's up to them. Not up to you. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) (12/18/88)
In article <413@orbit.UUCP>, swordfis@pnet51.cts.com (Tim Mitchell) writes: > Why should the paid users be made to suffer for the acts of the pirates? It's too bad about the disk, but it's not necesserily because of the copy protection. If the disk got ruined because of a magnetic field or something similar, it would have killed the disk whether it was protected or not. You can't blame protection schemes everytime a disk fails. (I'm not flaming, it's too bad you have to wait longer to enjoy DM) > I have a lot of programmer friends who tape albums for each other, and when I > (A professional musician,) point out that they're pirating intellectual > property, take it as a joke. Programmers seem to feel that their intellectual > property is more valid than other sorts. Many people tend to be hypocrits. But I should point out that most professional musicians who have albums out have a lot more in their pocket than programmers. After all, there's no equivelent of a concert for the programmer. -- What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu
karl@sugar.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) (12/18/88)
In article <413@orbit.UUCP>, swordfis@pnet51.cts.com (Tim Mitchell) writes: > 1. I finally got a copy of DungeonMaster, from FTL, into my hot little hands. > I read the manual, and was all set to waste an evening happily gaming, when I > found out the disk didn't work. Now, my guess is that the pirates will have > the game cracked within a couple of months. I am strongly anti-piracy, and it > irks me that the little buggers will have working copies of the disk just for > the asking, while I, a paid user, have to return mine. 1. You don't know that copy protection is responsible for your copy not booting. It could have been a bad disk or bad dup. The first batch of our game that went out was bad :-( 2. There is a difference between casual pirates and hardcore pirates. Copy protection deters casual pirates. Little can deter hardcore pirates. Presumably, most pirates are casual, so even though hardcore pirates break someone's CP, casual ones may not hence they may break down and buy the program, which is of course the idea. > 2. This talk of fines and such is all very nice, but first shouldn't you think > about how you're going to catch* the pirates? ... > Who on here is ready to say: "I've never* taped a song off of an album/CD for > a friend,"? or "I've never taped a movie off of cable and let a friend watch > it,"? Again, I don't think the entertainment vending companies are as concerned with me letting you watch a movie I taped off cable (although they don't like it) as they are the more wholesale piracy of resellers/counterfeiters, here too there is a difference between casual and hardcore piracy. -- -- "We've been following your progress with considerable interest, not to say -- contempt." -- Zaphod Beeblebrox IV -- uunet!sugar!karl, Unix BBS (713) 438-5018
wdao@castor.usc.edu (Walter Dao) (12/18/88)
this is about some stuff ... 1) the guy who got a non working Dungeon Master disk. I was lucky that when I booted the game for the very first time, No virus was in memory. The disk fresh out of the box was not write protected. THe idea of checking the disk hit me right after I saw the opening screen. Doom could have struck . 2) Documentations not being posted ? I have seen it. Even the Numbers of the code wheel type of protection. All the numbers of all the disks of a code wheel were carefully typed and saved in a text file and uploaded to a BBS. 3) Comparing the Nintendo to the Amiga ... Who the hell was the first guy to raise such a topic ? I by far prefer my amiga. 4) I to saw the Elite game version for the ST . Dam... saliva was dripping from the corner of my mouth .... 5) I am patiently waiting for B.A.T. (should be out in the states under an EPIX Label and I hope they are not going to screw the game up -game censorship- <like redrawing sprites of females a bit too naked... they usually do it>) B.A.T. is The ULTIMATE SCi-FI game . (B.A.T. is not the cheap game name CON -BAT = pseudo flight sim.) 8-# *Keep your connections**** clic ***
eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) (12/19/88)
I have an idea I'd like to bounce off the net about software distribution. It goes like this: Person desiring to purchase software calls vendor by modem. Purchaser supplies VISA or Mastercard number and expiration date. vendor assembles unique edition of software, encoding credit card number in obscure form such as names of monsters. Unique edition downloaded to user. When program runs, it displays credit card number as part of startup. Now if purchaser gives a copy away, he is also giving away his credit card number. Variation: Software store has phone link to vendor. When you go in the store, you give then your credit card #, they call vendor's machine, download unique edition as above, and stick it in the box with the manual. Software stores would have an incentive to go to a system like this since it would tend to make people come in to buy software rather than pirate. -- Dani Eder / Boeing / Space Station Program / uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder (205)464-4150(w) (205)461-7801(h) 1075 Dockside Drive #905 Huntsville, AL 35824 34 40 N latitude 86 40 W longitude +100m altitude, Earth
eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) (12/19/88)
It has occurred to me why software couldn't be handled by video stores. They could stock software the way they stock videotapes, which would let people rent the software for a few days to test it out, for a fee of around $5 or so, then, if you like it, you can go out and buy a copy of your own. This would parallel video in that you can buy your own copy of a tape if you like it a lot. Since much game software has a limited facination, many people would enjoy being able to rent games cheaply, returning them when they get boring. In fact, this trend seems to be starting. The local video store (which just opened) is advertising it carries a large stock of Nintendo cartridges. -- Dani Eder / Boeing / Space Station Program / uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder (205)464-4150(w) (205)461-7801(h) 1075 Dockside Drive #905 Huntsville, AL 35824 34 40 N latitude 86 40 W longitude +100m altitude, Earth
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (12/19/88)
From article <2515@looking.UUCP>, by brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton): " ... " Q) I'm not actually taking anything. Nobody's property is removed. " " A) Wrong. Answer makes no sense. It's obvious that nobody's property is removed. (It may be that somebody's property is diminished in value.) " The only thing you *can* do with intellectual property " is control it and say how it is to be used. So since it's the only thing you can do with it, therefore you should be able to do this with it? What kind of reasoning is that? " By copying, you are " appropriating the owner's only true right. You say it's a true right -- others disagree. If this is intended to support your case, you should be reminded that calling it a true right doesn't make it one. Because there's no other right doesn't mean this right exists. " It's theft, plain and " simple, equal to (or worse than) any other theft. Silliness. There are obviously thefts that do much greater injury to people. The law makes distinctions among different kinds of theft and exacts penalties of differing severities. Are your eyes so firmly fixed on your wallet that you really can't see any differences? I understand that it may be to the mutual benefit of producers and consumers of software to outlaw and to prevent piracy. It's arguable. What I don't have any sympathy with is self-serving moralizing from people who make their living selling software. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
jim@eda.com (Jim Budler) (12/19/88)
In article <5027@garfield.MUN.EDU> john13@garfield.UUCP (John Russell) writes: | In article <6268@fluke.COM> kurt@tc.fluke.COM (Kurt Guntheroth) writes: | >I wonder why companies don't offer cash rewards for "information leading to | >the arrest and conviction" of software pirates. [...] | Yeah, the first person to take advantage of the offer will be the Byte Bandit | or some other sleazoid who's copied everything ever written, who will turn in | all the people he knows who have 1-2 pieces of pirated software (and he | probably gave them to them!). Can you say Ivan Boesky? I knew you could. This is definately in the time honored American and British tradition of State/Queen 's Evidence. -- Jim Budler address = uucp: ...!{decwrl,uunet}!eda!jim OR domain: jim@eda.com #define disclaimer "I do not speak for my employer"
csc21824@unsvax.UUCP (Jay) (12/19/88)
> >How about the games ? I hate the games the leave that ugly window top border > >on ... and they usually use a drab (mean ugly yuck pallette of colors.) > > This can be solved by using custom screens. > It doesn't even take that. Just open a borderless window with no gadgets, that is the full size of the screen. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This space for Rent Eric J. Schwertfeger CIS [72657,1166] or csc21824%unsvax.uns.edu Disclaimer:These are just the mad ramblings of a man forced to use vi once too often, and as such, should be ignored.
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/19/88)
In article <2850@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes another pseudo-libertarian defence of piracy. Let me put this into libertarian terms. Look, Lee, when you "buy" software you are entering into a contract with the seller. The terms of this contract are more or less: you get the right to use the software on your computer. You may make backup copies or otherwise modify the software to enable you to use it. In exchange for this you pay the author a fixed sum of money and agree not to distribute the software. There's nothing coercive about this. It doesn't take laws or a distortion of the market to allow this sort of transaction to take place or this market to exist. It's just a contract, no stranger than the one you sign when you rent a car or get married. The terms are different, but the principle is the same. And breaking a contract is morally and ethically wrong, whether you're copying someone else's software, cheating on your spouse, or letting a third party drive a rental car. Just because you are less likely to get caught doing these things doesn't make them any less wrong. > " By copying, you are > " appropriating the owner's only true right. > You say it's a true right -- others disagree. If this is intended to > support your case, you should be reminded that calling it a true right > doesn't make it one. Because there's no other right doesn't mean this > right exists. It is the authors right to put any terms he wants to on a contract. It is your right to accept or reject the contract as a whole. It is not your right to turn around and force a third party, who has agreed to that contract, to break it. > What I don't have any sympathy with is self-serving moralizing from > people who make their living selling software. How about good sound ethical reasoning from a guy who makes his living writing software under a work-for-hire contract? -- Peter "Have you hugged your wolf today" da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (12/20/88)
From article <3121@sugar.uu.net>, by peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva): "In article <2850@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) "writes another pseudo-libertarian defence of piracy. " " Let me put this into libertarian terms. " " Look, Lee, when you "buy" software you are entering into a contract with the " seller. The terms of this contract are more or less: you get the right to use "... A very nice well reasoned argument. And for those cases where a contract actually is executed between buyer and seller, and the buyer breaks the contract by selling or giving the software to a third party, I agree, he has done something wrong, as well as illegal. But is this how piracy happens? I have bought some software in my time -- I have never signed a contract, however. I have noticed that some of the stuff came with notices saying "... if you break this seal ... you are agreeing to ... terms inside". I think you would have to be pretty gullible to believe those notices. I never have, nor considered that I entered into any contract. A software pirate doesn't break any contract by making copies and using them, does he? What contract? Where? It sounds like Da Silva wants us to believe that *every* buyer of software enters into some sort of implicit contract not to distribute the stuff to others. Is anyone going to buy that? " ... It doesn't take laws or a distortion of " the market to allow this sort of transaction to take place or this market to " exist. That's right. The trouble is, this is not the market that was under discussion. Or, at least, the part of the market governed by signed contracts is peripheral to the discussion. " ... " It is the authors right to put any terms he wants to on a contract. It is your " right to accept or reject the contract as a whole. It is not your right to " turn around and force a third party, who has agreed to that contract, to " break it. What's this about third parties? Are we trying to sneak the pirates into being partiies to broken "contracts" by claiming they coerce the people whose software they copy into distributing it? Whew! Awesome reasoning. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/20/88)
In article <1396@leah.Albany.Edu> jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: >In article <413@orbit.UUCP>, swordfis@pnet51.cts.com (Tim Mitchell) writes: >> Why should the paid users be made to suffer for the acts of the pirates? > >It's too bad about the disk, but it's not necesserily because of the >copy protection. Wrong. (assume the worst - coffee spilled on the playing disk) If the master disk was in the safe, where it should be, instead of the disk drive, you would simply take the protected master copy (which is, of course, also write-protected) out of the safe and make another working copy. Then you return the master to the fireproof (and magnetically shielded, since it's make of ferrous metal) safe. Elapsed time: < 5 minutes. Risk? If the original was ok to begin with, none. You're playing again before your replacement cup of coffee can start to get cold. Try that when you have to mail the replacement halfway across the continent! -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
derek@hsi.UUCP (Derek Lee-Wo) (12/20/88)
In article <2433@ssc-vax.UUCP> eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) writes: >When program runs, it displays credit card number as part >of startup. >Now if purchaser gives a copy away, he is also giving away >his credit card number. > The only draw-back is that not all software buyers have credit cards. What would happen to that 13 year old who wants to buy the latest game for his computer??. He could ask his parents to buy it for him, but if he did give a copy to his friend, his parents credit card number would be displayed. We wouldn't want that, would we??. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Derek Lee-Wo, Health Systems International, New Haven, CT 06511. | |E-mail address :- ...!harvard!yale!hsi!derek. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
karl@sugar.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) (12/20/88)
In article <2434@ssc-vax.UUCP>, eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) writes: > It has occurred to me why software couldn't be handled by video > stores. They could stock software the way they stock videotapes, > which would let people rent the software for a few days to test > it out, for a fee of around $5 or so, then, if you like it, you > can go out and buy a copy of your own. This would parallel > video in that you can buy your own copy of a tape if you like > it a lot. And it would parallel video in that if you like a video you can dup the tape on your second machine. It's interesting that all those tapes the rental companies rent say "licensed only for noncommercial use in homes." This would seem to preclude renting it out. I guess not. What your plan does is ultimately reduce income for intellectual property creators (programmers in this case) even more, because gobs of people get the use of the program with *no* compensation for the author/vendor other than from the original sale. You know, before they had copyright laws and such, there wasn't any protection of intellectual property, consequently for example Johann Sebastian Bach had to teach and even chop his own firewood even when he was old because he wasn't compensated for the use of his music. It may lead to a more well-rounded life but it reduces the amount of time one can spend writing music. The same is true for Amiga programmers. I would like to make a living programming the Amiga. I don't even mind if it doesn't pay as well as my current programming job. The enjoyment of working for myself, on the Amiga, in a productive one or two person environment -- my love of programming, if you will -- makes up the difference. But since it doesn't pay well enough, and piracy is, I think, *the* major contributing factor, I can't. Who loses by piracy? Everyone who would run a program someone would write if they could afford to write it. Who gains? In the short term, the pirates. By stealing things, they don't have to pay for them. Funny, too, apparently most hardcore pirates have some sort of "property is theft" justification for what they do when it is really, in fact, just down-with-the-system techno-vandalism. It's like the people who take luxurious baths during a severe water shortage. They don't care what would happen if *everyone* behaved that way. Well, most Amiga software is still garage shop in origin. Authors keep slugging away because they like the machine, but if it doesn't start to pay reasonably, they're going to stop. If the piracy gets bad enough, professional Amiga software development will stop. Whether you care or not, well... Disclaimer: That's my opinion and you can like it or lump it -- -- "We've been following your progress with considerable interest, not to say -- contempt." -- Zaphod Beeblebrox IV -- uunet!sugar!karl, Unix BBS (713) 438-5018
swordfis@pnet51.cts.com (Tim Mitchell) (12/20/88)
Almost time to move this to Email, but I can't resist an update.
I am well aware of the effects of magnets, heat, etc. on disks. You can trust
me when I tell you that the disk was defective straight out of the box.
In fact, I followed my normal procedure: unwrap the package, power up, insert
disk and give the manual a quick once-over while the disk loads.
So it was back to my friendly dealer to exchange the disk. Since that was the
last copy of DM the store had, I exchanged it for a copy of Dagon's Lair,
paying the price difference in cash. (Er, c/dagon's/dragon's.) See it coming
yet? I scurried home, and popped my brand new -- and defective -- copy of
Dragon's Lair into the drive.
The defect just kept resetting my Amiga instead of loading -- "Chunk, click,
click, reset. Chunk, click, click, reset." Tell me that's* not because of
an error in the protection scheme. There is nothing wrong with my Df0:. Both
Arkanoid and 3 Stooges load dandy.
So today, it was hippity-hoppity back t my dealer, for yet another exchange.
Of course, they had hadonly one copy of Dragon's Lair in stock, and hadn't
got in new copies of DM yet. (To be fair, we're talking a span of three days.)
So I got a game that worked in exchange -- in fact, I had them let me test my
copy in the store. The game? Rocket Ranger. It's manual* protected, and it
works.
Now, I'm still disappointed. I mean, Rocket Ranger was my third choice out of
the three. I still* want to buy DM, and will* as soon as it's back in stock.
I'm just disappointed that some of the imagination and effort that went into
the game couldn't have been carried over to a protection scheme that is a
little easier on the customer.
And as for musicians being wealthier than programmers, please remember that
for every David Lee Roth, there are thousands* like me.
UUCP: {rosevax, crash}!orbit!pnet51!swordfis
INET: swordfis@pnet51.cts.comjesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) (12/20/88)
In article <2854@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: >From article <3121@sugar.uu.net>, by peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva): >"In article <2850@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) >"writes another pseudo-libertarian defence of piracy. >" >" Let me put this into libertarian terms. >" >" Look, Lee, when you "buy" software you are entering into a contract with the >" seller. The terms of this contract are more or less: you get the right to use >"... > >A very nice well reasoned argument. And for those cases where a >contract actually is executed between buyer and seller, and the buyer >breaks the contract by selling or giving the software to a third party, >I agree, he has done something wrong, as well as illegal. And he goes on to say how he never entered into a contract. Greg, you miss the point. He was translating the current legal situation into a hypothetical libertarian society, and showing that the same effect could exist in a libertarian society. If you haven't noticed, we don't live in anything close to a libertarian society. Peter's point was that the current copyright laws we live under, and are supposed to abide by, are the _equivalent_ to a contract in a libertarian society, in which you agree not to redistribute the item in question. In our society, there is no need of a contract for it to be illegal (and immoral) for you to copy software you have purchased, unless you get _explicit_ permission from the copyright holder. If we lived in this hypo- thetical libertarian society, you can bet that most software developers (and perhaps book writers, and musicians, etc) would demand a contract before giving you a copy of their work. >A software pirate doesn't break any contract by making copies and using >them, does he? What contract? Where? Read the above. He breaks plenty of laws instead. -- You've heard of CATS? Well, I'm a member of DOGS: Developers Of Great Software. Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (12/20/88)
From article <5531@cbmvax.UUCP>, by jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup): " ... " Peter's point was that the current copyright laws we live under, and " are supposed to abide by, are the _equivalent_ to a contract in a libertarian " society, in which you agree not to redistribute the item in question. I asked whether anybody was going swallow the view that software buyers somehow enter into an implicit contract not to redistribute. Apparently the answer is yes. No, wait. They actually *do* sign a contract in a parallel imaginary libertarian world. And any obligations they undertake in that world carry over to ours. Am I getting it? I must admit, I didn't appreciate the true subtlety of the argument. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
karl@sugar.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) (12/20/88)
In article <416@orbit.UUCP>, swordfis@pnet51.cts.com (Tim Mitchell) writes: > The defect just kept resetting my Amiga instead of loading -- "Chunk, click, > click, reset. Chunk, click, click, reset." Tell me that's* not because of > an error in the protection scheme. OK, that's not because of an error in the protection scheme. :-) Seriously though, it isn't necessarily. If the copy was defective and the right part of the disk was trashed, any boot disk could do this. It is not ipso facto proof the copy protection is responsible. -- -- "We've been following your progress with considerable interest, not to say -- contempt." -- Zaphod Beeblebrox IV -- uunet!sugar!karl, Unix BBS (713) 438-5018
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/20/88)
In article <2854@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: > From article <3121@sugar.uu.net>, by peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva): > " Look, Lee, when you "buy" software you are entering into a contract with the > " seller. The terms of this contract are more or less: you get the right to use > "... > A very nice well reasoned argument. And for those cases where a > contract actually is executed between buyer and seller, and the buyer > breaks the contract by selling or giving the software to a third party, > I agree, he has done something wrong, as well as illegal. And all the laws that have been passed to help deal with the piracy problem come down to streamlining this process. It's not changed any from the old days when you actually signed a license agreement with DEC, or whoever, just the mechanism has been simplified. Or are you telling me that you really want to go back to explicit licensing? If your arguments are to be believed, you do. > I think you would have to be pretty > gullible to believe those notices. I never have, nor considered that I > entered into any contract. I'm not talking about "shrinkwrap licensing". I'm talking about the laws that basically define purchase of software in terms that are functionally equivalent to a conventional open-ended licensing agreement. > It sounds like Da Silva wants us to believe that *every* buyer of software > enters into some sort of implicit contract not to distribute the > stuff to others. Is anyone going to buy that? That's what the law means. Because people didn't like shrink-wrap agreements. There's nothing inherently wrong with shrink-wrap agreements so long as the terms are spelled out ahead of time (i.e., you don't have to pay money to read them). The legal system may disagree, since the law has superceded them, but that's a different matter. So what do *you* want people to do? What's your motivation here? You want people to buy software, license software, or steal software? These are the three alternatives. Option 3 is economically unjustifiable. Option 1 is convenient, but since you don't believe in copyrights or intellectual property, that's out of the question. That leaves us with Option 2: licensing the stuff. So you can either sign a peice of paper or accept the law that makes "buying" software equivalent to signing that peice of paper. Where do you go from here? > " It is the authors right to put any terms he wants to on a contract. It is your > " right to accept or reject the contract as a whole. It is not your right to > " turn around and force a third party, who has agreed to that contract, to > " break it. > What's this about third parties? Are we trying to sneak the pirates > into being partiies to broken "contracts" by claiming they coerce the > people whose software they copy into distributing it? Whew! Awesome > reasoning. We're not trying to sneak anything in. There are two cases: You pay your money and then give copies of the software away. You're breaking that implicit contract. You pay your money and then someone copies the software. The contract has still been broken, and you've been negligent in protecting the terms of the contract. In the second case, yes, the pirate is responsible for forcing the original licensee into breaking the contract. You do not have the legal right to force someone to break a contract. QED. -- Peter "Have you hugged your wolf today" da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net
36_5130@uwovax.uwo.ca (Kinch) (12/21/88)
In article <5531@cbmvax.UUCP>, jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) writes: > In article <2854@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: >>From article <3121@sugar.uu.net>, by peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva): >>"In article <2850@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) [ lots-o-stuff deleted ] > > In our society, there is no need of a contract for it to be illegal > (and immoral) for you to copy software you have purchased, unless you get ^^^^^^^^^^^ I have (and will likely conto)ue to) stay out of this argument as I am of two minds on this issue, but this particular statement deserves some comment. It is NOT up to you, Randell Jesup, to decide what is moral and what is not. I concede the illegality of the situation but I will decide for myself (as everybody must do for THEMSELVES) the morality of the situation. > -- > You've heard of CATS? Well, I'm a member of DOGS: Developers Of Great Software. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ should we not be the judge of this?! > Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup Please everyone continue this extremly interesting conversation. It is so rewarding! Kinch
cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (12/21/88)
In article <2854@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu., lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes:
. From article <3121@sugar.uu.net., by peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva):
. "In article <2850@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu., lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee)
. "writes another pseudo-libertarian defence of piracy.
. "
. " Let me put this into libertarian terms.
. "
. " Look, Lee, when you "buy" software you are entering into a contract with the
. " seller. The terms of this contract are more or less: you get the right to use
. "...
.
. A very nice well reasoned argument. And for those cases where a
. contract actually is executed between buyer and seller, and the buyer
. breaks the contract by selling or giving the software to a third party,
. I agree, he has done something wrong, as well as illegal.
.
. But is this how piracy happens? I have bought some software in my time
. -- I have never signed a contract, however. I have noticed that some of
. the stuff came with notices saying "... if you break this seal ... you
. are agreeing to ... terms inside". I think you would have to be pretty
. gullible to believe those notices. I never have, nor considered that I
. entered into any contract.
Have you ever entered a U.S. military base? There is a notice at the
entrance that says that you agree that your vehicle can be searched at
any time. Do you have any question in your mind that the courts do
not consider that a binding contract? Is it any different from a
shrink-wrap agreement?
. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
--
Clayton E. Cramer
{pyramid,pixar,tekbspa}!optilink!cramer (Note new path!)hbo@sbphy.ucsb.edu (Howard B. Owen) (12/21/88)
In article <225@hsi86.hsi.UUCP>, derek@hsi.UUCP (Derek Lee-Wo) writes... >In article <2433@ssc-vax.UUCP> eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) writes: >>When program runs, it displays credit card number as part >>of startup. >>Now if purchaser gives a copy away, he is also giving away >>his credit card number. >> >The only draw-back is that not all software buyers have credit cards. What >would happen to that 13 year old who wants to buy the latest game for his >computer??.... What if sonny allowed the software to be copied? What if Joe Pirate, true to his character, goes out and charges $10,000.00 on daddy's gold Visa? WHO GETS SLAPPED WITH A LAWSUIT? -- Howard Owen, Computer Systems Manager internet: hbo@sbphy.ucsb.edu Physics Computer Services BITNET: HBO@SBITP.BITNET University of California, Santa Barbara HEPNET/SPAN: SBPHY::HBO "I am not a pay TV service!" uucp:{The World}!ucbvax!hub!hbo
donw@zehntel.zehntel.com (Don White) (12/21/88)
In article <213@tityus.UUCP> jim@athsys.uucp (Jim Becker) writes: >From article <81277@sun.uucp>, by cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis): >> that software. In a completely idealistic world, if you were accused of ^^^^^^^ >> pirating software the court would give you 10 days to come up with a >> registered copy of the specified program, if you couldn't you would You guys both missed something here. Do the words 'Innocent until proven guilty' mean anything to you? This solution is unethical.
kudla@pawl17.pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (12/21/88)
In article <81277@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >Yes and no. The fine for pirating software should be the list price of >that software. In a completely idealistic world, if you were accused of But Chuck, most of the software I had as a scummy c64 pirate was released in the U.S. either never or a year or two later. How would you deal with software like this, with no list price? Do you think, all subjective professions of objective morality aside, that eradicating software piracy is possible without implementing some sort of totalitarian government? In fact, do you think it could be reduced to a level satisfactory to those spending hundreds and thousands of dollars trying to prevent it? I don't.... -----------Robert J. Kudla - Ex-Pseudo-Freshman Extraordinaire----------- // Don't surround yourself \ Itt@RPITSMTS.BITNET \\ // with yourself.... \ USERFW3S%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu \X/ / \ kudla@pawl.rpi.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------
childs@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (David W. Childs) (12/21/88)
In article <413@orbit.UUCP>, swordfis@pnet51.cts.com (Tim Mitchell) writes: > Who on here is ready to say: > "I've never taped a movie off of cable and let a friend watch it,"? Not only do I not do that, I turn off my radio or tv if a friend is within earshot or eyesight of either. In article <555@icus.islp.ny.us> <176@censor.UUCP> hpchang@ziebmef.UUCP (Hsi P. Chang) writes: > Don't flame me. Like I said, my philosophy is just to try out the program > before pucking out megabucks. Most dealers in this part of the world hate > demostrating any software. I honestly believe that a good program shall be > rewarded, but a bad one can go down the tubes.... Try before buy is good, or find a dealer that will let you return the product. Someone writes: >Again, I don't think the entertainment vending companies are as concerned with >me letting you watch a movie I taped off cable (although they don't like it) >as they are the more wholesale piracy of resellers/counterfeiters, here >too there is a difference between casual and hardcore piracy. I hope not. If I only use the copy for my own purposes I don't believe they have much say in the matter. David
c60a-2di@e260-1c.berkeley.edu (The Cybermat Rider) (12/21/88)
In article <225@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> derek@hsi86.UUCP (Derek Lee-Wo) writes: >In article <2433@ssc-vax.UUCP> eder@ssc-vax.UUCP (Dani Eder) writes: >>When program runs, it displays credit card number as part >>of startup. >>Now if purchaser gives a copy away, he is also giving away >>his credit card number. >> >The only draw-back is that not all software buyers have credit cards. What >would happen to that 13 year old who wants to buy the latest game for his >computer??. He could ask his parents to buy it for him, but if he did give a >copy to his friend, his parents credit card number would be displayed. We >wouldn't want that, would we??. Well, the PARENTS wouldn't want that, so it's up to THEM to educate their youngster on the ethics of software purchase & distribution. Personally, I think this is a pretty good way of "protecting" software. For one thing, it helps ensure that (to a certain extent) money is not wasted on frivolous software (I'm assuming, of course, that if you're old enuf to have a credit card, you're also mature enough to realize the value of money). If your parents have to finance the purchase, you'd BETTER be able to convince them that it's worth it. Of course, I can easily visualize a dedicated pirate defeating even THIS protection scheme........ > >-- >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Derek Lee-Wo, Health Systems International, New Haven, CT 06511. | >|E-mail address :- ...!harvard!yale!hsi!derek. | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adrian Ho a.k.a. The Cybermat Rider University of California, Berkeley c60a-2di@web.berkeley.edu Disclaimer: Nobody takes me seriously, so is it really necessary?
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (12/21/88)
From article <3127@sugar.uu.net>, by peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva): " ... " So what do *you* want people to do? What's your motivation here? You want " people to buy software, license software, or steal software? These are the " three alternatives. Option 3 is economically unjustifiable. Option 1 is " convenient, but since you don't believe in copyrights or intellectual " property, that's out of the question. That leaves us with Option 2: licensing " the stuff. I'm flattered you should ask my opinion. I'm afraid I don't have any, though. I think of the question what should be done about the copyrighting of software and piracy as a technical issue. What would happen to our software industry and would it be in the interest of software users if software were not protected by copyright? I don't know the answers -- I don't think the answers are obvious. I would be interested to read some informed discussion from those of you who know more about the software scene than I. It could be that copyright protection for software is a good thing, and at the same time that some reasons advanced in its favor are bogus. I've seen some bogus reasoning -- I've pointed it out. Your current argument that copyright protection is a good thing because it allows a simple transfer to serve the essential purpose of a contract without the inconvenience of an actual contract makes sense to me. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (12/22/88)
From article <729@optilink.UUCP>, by cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer): " Have you ever entered a U.S. military base? There is a notice at the " entrance that says that you agree that your vehicle can be searched at " any time. Do you have any question in your mind that the courts do " not consider that a binding contract? Is it any different from a " shrink-wrap agreement? Yes, I do have some question in my mind about that. I would guess that the sign without the "you agree" part would have as much force, or that the sign is not necessary at all for a search to take place without being disputed by a court. So, it's probably the same as a shrink-wrap agreement in having no legal force. (From the fact that I'm willing to offer an opinion about this, you can probably deduce that I'm not a lawyer ...) Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
korz@iwtsf.ATT.COM (Korzonas) (12/22/88)
Those of you who have never seen a license agreement either only have pirated software in your posession or have been too excited to read it when you were tearing the wrapper off your software. Every piece of non-PD software that I have seen has its disks packaged separately or the license agreement is on the outside of the package. Here is an example (note that I am paraphrasing so as not to infringe on the author's copyright on the license agreement): ATTENTION: Before opening this package containing your software, read the LIMITED USE SOFTWARE LICENSE, in the user's manual. By opening this package, you indicate that you have read and accept the LIMITED USE SOFTWARE LICENSE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The LICENSE notes, among other things: 1. If you don't agree to the terms of the license, return all the manuals and disk packages with the seals unbroken to your dealer along with your receipt and you will get a refund. 2. All the software AND COPIES THEREOF, are and will remain the property of <the software company>. 3. <The software company> allows you, the purchaser, to use the software on ONE COMPUTER AT A TIME. 4. You agree not to disassemble nor reverse-compile this software. 5. You agree to NOT GIVE COPIES TO ANYONE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Seems pretty clear-cut to me. The thing that I believe makes people think that copying software is not stealing is that they have trouble separating material property from intellectual property. If you worked on an idea for a year and wrote software that implemented that idea, wouldn't you feel that anyone who used your product owed you something for your efforts? Actually, I feel that good ideas are harder to develop than good material items. Al.
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/22/88)
In article <2855@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) writes: > No, wait. They actually *do* sign a contract in a > parallel imaginary libertarian world. And any obligations they > undertake in that world carry over to ours. Am I getting it? I must > admit, I didn't appreciate the true subtlety of the argument. Congratulations. You just invented L. Neil Smith. No, it's not quite that subtle. Your argument seems basically to be that from a libertarian standpoint copyrights are a distortion of the market. I decided to grant you Libertaria (a society designed by libertarians), and explained how *if this was Libertaria* things wouldn't be very different. They'd just be a little less convenient and there'd be less piracy. Thus, it's not morally wrong (from a libertarian viewpoint) for there to be such a thing as intellectual property rights. Got that? Now then, this isn't Libertaria. Instead of a complex licensing scheme we have copyright laws. The mechanism is less flexible and more convenient than the licensing contracts that would exist in Libertaria. But, since intellectual property rights are moral (see above), it's perfectly ethical for libertarians and others of like mind to accept and support the concept of copyrights. Since copyrights lead to a desirable state -- more software gets written -- it is therefore immoral or unethical to pirate software. There. Nestor Makhno might not agree, but I think it holds water. -- Peter "Have you hugged your wolf today" da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net
lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Greg Lee) (12/22/88)
From article <3135@sugar.uu.net>, by peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva): " ... Your argument seems basically to be that " from a libertarian standpoint copyrights are a distortion of the market. You and the other software developers who have been filling my mailbox of late seem to have a facility for jumping to conclusions. I did not argue that copyrights were a bad thing because they distort the free market. I argued that you were wrong to say that piracy distorts the free market, and I stated that copyright laws distort the free market. So do laws against slavery. That doesn't mean I'm against them. "... " it's not morally wrong (from a libertarian viewpoint) for there to be such " a thing as intellectual property rights. If you mean that it's not wrong for intellectual property rights to be recognized under the law, I agree. If you mean that you have provided a moral basis for such rights by this argument from convenience, I can't agree with that. Let's do away with criminal trials and just consider accusation by a public prosecutor as _equivalent_ to being found guilty by a jury. It would be convenient, and we can consider that the trial is held in an imaginary world as a rationale. But I can't speak for libertarians. " therefore immoral or unethical to pirate software. So long as piracy remains illegal because it violates copyrights, I would tend to agree that it's unethical, though the matter is not obvious. And there may be good reasons for extending copyright law to cover software binaries. But that the laws are justified because the behavior they prohibit would in any case be immoral -- this is something else again. Promises made in Libertaria are not binding here. If you want the protection of a contract, you have to suffer the inconvenience of actually executing one. You can't just pretend you did. Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
johnm@trsvax.UUCP (12/22/88)
I hate to break this to all of you "geniuses" but some of us who could have credit cards choose not to. An astonishing concept really, and yet, it does happen. I have none and I don't really want any. John Munsch
new@udel.EDU (Darren New) (12/23/88)
For those thinking that copying software is OK because "it does not reduce the usabilityby the one from whom it is copied", what do you think about counterfeitting?
kudla@pawl17.pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (12/23/88)
In article <125@iwtsf.ATT.COM> korz@iwtsf.ATT.COM (Korzonas) writes: >(iterates your typical shrinkwrap license) >Seems pretty clear-cut to me. The thing that I believe makes people Wrong..... Shrinkwrap licenses, as they're generally called, are not legally binding (or at least, have never been proven to be in a U.S. court of law). A shrinkwrap license is akin to printing a notice on a box of cheerios to the effect that by opening this box of cheerios you forsake all legal claims against General Mills Inc. and agree never to eat your Cheerios in a manner inconsistent with the suggested serving; i.e. with milk. If shrink- wrap licenses are binding, so would be that Cheerios license. Wouldn't you say? -----------Robert J. Kudla - Ex-Pseudo-Freshman Extraordinaire----------- // Don't surround yourself \ Itt@RPITSMTS.BITNET \\ // with yourself.... \ USERFW3S%mts@itsgw.rpi.edu \X/ / \ kudla@pawl.rpi.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (12/23/88)
In article <125@iwtsf.ATT.COM> korz@iwtsf.ATT.COM (Korzonas) writes: >ATTENTION: >Before opening this package containing your software, read the LIMITED >USE SOFTWARE LICENSE, in the user's manual. By opening this package, >you indicate that you have read and accept the LIMITED USE SOFTWARE >LICENSE. 1. What if I'm illiterate? Did I just enter a binding contract? 2. What if someone sells me the software after it's opened? That would mean that I didn't open the package? 3. What if I say to myself, "All I did was open it. I bought it, it's mine. I'm not agreeing to anything by this."? Sean -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet *** Who sometimes never learns. {backbone site|rutgers|uunet}!ukma!sean *** U of K, Lexington Kentucky, USA ..where Christian movies are banned. *** ``My name is father. You killed my die. Prepare to Inigo Montoya.''
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (12/23/88)
From article <729@optilink.UUCP>, by cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer):
" Have you ever entered a U.S. military base? There is a notice at the
" entrance that says that you agree that your vehicle can be searched at
" any time. Do you have any question in your mind that the courts do
" not consider that a binding contract? Is it any different from a
" shrink-wrap agreement?
Yes, I do have some question in my mind about that. I would guess
that the sign without the "you agree" part would have as much force,
or that the sign is not necessary at all for a search to take place
without being disputed by a court. So, it's probably the same
as a shrink-wrap agreement in having no legal force. (From the
fact that I'm willing to offer an opinion about this, you can probably
deduce that I'm not a lawyer ...)
Greg, lee@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu
<Sullivan replies:>
More to the point, that sign does not constitute a binding legal agreement.
If you drive your car on base, and someone asks to search it, you have the
right to refuse. Of course, if you refuse, you will be removed from the
base, and your entry permit will be revoked. However, even though there
is a sign at the entrance, you are under no legal obligation to consent to
search. On the other hand, certain circumstances do warrant search without
consent.
-Sullivan Segall
(The damned editor isn't working here at Portal (we can make it more painful
for you to read net mail than anyone else) Communications, so you'll have
to live without my .signature, I know you're disappointed...)jsan@well.UUCP (Jez San) (12/26/88)
>I hate to break it to all of you 'geniuses' buut some of us who could have
credit cards choose not to. An astonishing concept really, sand yet, it does
happen. I have none and I dont really want any.
John, I used to think that way. I just used to carry around one visa card. That was, until
the last time I visited America (im in England). Everywhere required the use of a
credit card. I cou;ldnt rent a car, book into a hotel, or change currency without one!
After that visit, I decided to get a mastercard as well. And now, even if I dont
use my cards.. at least I have them for when i need them!
-- Jez.