ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo L. Schwab) (12/21/88)
[ Is $720 too much to pay for a music box? ]
The last couple of postings from Dale and JimM have me a wee bit
worried. They seem to be getting caustic. This makes me wonder if they're
getting fed up with all the "amateur" programmers out there, or just plain
tired of the barrage of questions hurled at them.
I like to think of myself as a good Amiga programmer. Still, each
time I speak to Dale or JimM, I am humbled by their much better-considered
opinions and techniques. I almost always learn something new from them.
(And let's not forget Kodiak.)
Based on a phone conversation I had with JimM today, I get the
impression that the AmiGuys might be getting a wee bit tired of the
attention they're getting. It might have been that I caught JimM at a bad
time, but it still may be valuable to try and think of how we can make their
lives easier. It'd be a shame for them to leave out of exasperation.
At the risk of contradicting myself, I'd like to throw out a few
suggestions on how to make the lives of AmiGuys and AmiGals more
headache-free, which they should feel free to add to, amend, contradict,
etc.
Rule #1: Don't Kill The Golden Goose. The people from Commodore-
Amiga are precisely that: people. They are not Vulcans; they have emotions.
They will get irritated if you ask them lots of silly questions. Use them
as you would use an expensive 976 phone service: sparingly.
Nefarious Tricks under 1.4: Speaking personally, I'm going to
assume that *EVERYTHING* will change under 1.4, and plan for a rev. I
hardly expect any of my screen hacks to work. It's also possible that
lots of commercial software will fall to pieces. Therefore, I would suggest
that you plan to release an update for any software you may be writing now
when 1.4 comes out. When it does finally come out, try your software out on
it. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you've covered your bet by planning
for the rev, so go for it.
Rumors about the A?000: They are just that: rumors. Personally, I
wish people would keep them to themselves. Everytime I see a rumor about
how great the Amiga ?000 is going to be, I start drooling, and pretty soon I
have to wash out my keyboard. If such advanced products were under
development, I would fully expect (that's right, *expect*) someone at
Commodore to get in touch with me so that I could plan future products for
it (yup, I'm into product now). Otherwise, I'd rather not waste my time
daydreaming about what life *could* be like. I have to deal with the here
and now. Rumors are fun, but keep it to a minimum, okay?
When will ________ be released: When it's finished, and not one
microsecond sooner.
Wish Lists: Submit an official Request For Enhancement form to
CATS. Not only does this guarantee that it gets looked at, but it also
makes you look more serious about having the enhancement added. Perhaps
Carolyn can be coaxed into posting a template?
I Found A Bug: Submit an official Bug Report form to CATS. This
way, they can process it more efficiently, check to see if they've already
swatted it, and keep a copy on file to refer to at a later time (and not
have to worry about Net articles expiring).
Commodore Advertising: No one reading this group has any control
over that. While we understand your frustration, your bytes are nonetheless
wasted. (This assumes the commentary is negative, which is not always, but
often, the case.)
Anything else that bugs you AmigaPeople?
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
\_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac
O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack")
"Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctorphil@titan.rice.edu (William LeFebvre) (12/22/88)
Something else we should all remember (that means the guys and gals in the trenches as well as the ones who moan and complain): just because it is posted here (or on c.s.a) doesn't necessarily mean that anyone at Commodore (CATS, DOGS, or whoever) will read it, act on it, or reply to it. They are under no obligation to do any of those things. I think it's really super that they do, and those-who-complain should regard any reply from them as a gift rather than a fulfillment of an obligation. This is a very similar problem to the one that Leslie Lamport experiences on TeXHax (the TeX mailing list): people occasionally complain about his curt and seemingly rude replies. HEY: He doesn't have to reply at all. Leo: if that's what you were really saying in your message, then I Am Sorry (by "leave" did you mean leave the network or leave CA?). CA people: thanks for all the help and support you've given people via Usenet. I think it has really helped. I know I've learned a few things! William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University <phil@Rice.edu>
ecphssrw@solaria.csun.edu (Stephen Walton) (12/22/88)
In article <10078@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes a great deal that makes sense about bugging the people who work so hard on the guts of our wonderful computers. Just a couple of additional comments: >It'd be a shame for them to leave out of exasperation. Depends on definition of "leave." I for one would certainly understand it if they unsubscribed from comp.sys.amiga. I've done it once or twice myself, but backed off again. >assume that *EVERYTHING* will change under 1.4, and plan for a rev. Again, myself, I almost automatically skip all "Do this for 1.4" messages. > Bug Reports When deciding whether to submit one, do *everything possible* to make sure the bug is legitimate and not just a quirk of your setup. Example of my own: I informally reported an apparent TxEd+ bug to Charlie Heath, only to find later that about 20 bytes of my working copy of the program had somehow gotten corrupted; getting a fresh copy from the distribution disk (actually my backup of it) solved the problem. > Rumors about the A?000: They are just that: rumors. And they do a great deal of harm, as Gail Wellington notes in the latest AmigaMail. How? By causing people who might otherwise buy an Amiga *now* to wait for what's coming next. > Commodore Advertising: No one reading this group has any control >over that. Not quite true. I noticed Paul Higginbottom around these parts again, after an extended absence from the net because It Just Took Too Much Time. But, we professionals should accept that Paul's professionals know much more about ads then we do, and Leave Them Alone (though a pat on the back doesn't hurt :-) ). -- Stephen Walton, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, Cal State Univ. Northridge RCKG01M@CALSTATE.BITNET ecphssrw@afws.csun.edu swalton@solar.stanford.edu ...!csun!afws.csun.edu!bcphssrw
dbk@fbog.UUCP (Dave B. Kinzer @ Price Rd. GEG) (12/22/88)
In article <10078@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >[ Is $720 too much to pay for a music box? ] Is $500 per year too much to pay for an amateur? > [deletions] > > Rule #1: Don't Kill The Golden Goose. The people from Commodore- >Amiga are precisely that: people. They are not Vulcans; they have emotions. [deletions] Leo goes on making good points about support and rumors are rumors, etc. He mentions two important forms, "Request for Enhancements", and "Bug Report", neither of which I have. These could be very useful forms (if I had anything to place on them.) >Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU The developers (tm) pay a (relatively) big chunk of change to have access to the Amiga people and information. They go to workshops and conferences and other events which keep them up to date on Commodore's current strategys and problem workarounds. Some of us mere users (I count myself as one), have other jobs which, besides the cost, prevent attending such events. What can happen is some of these users end up producing something that becomes desirable enough to others to market. Unfortunately, without the knowledge that would be gained from a the developer interaction, the product is poorly planned for the future, or bends some of the rules. (Another problem is sometimes college students write software and just can't afford the developer's support price.) Where is this rambling leading to, you ask? Trudge on, soldier. This software ends up reflecting bad on the Amiga. For my own case, a couple of days ago I was asked if I would like to port an Atari title to the Amiga (look out, he's goin commercial). Should I accept this task I would like to *Do It Right*. The niche market it would fit into makes buying even a year's worth of support a probable net loss (good thing I'm keeping the real job). But that does not mean that I do not need good information. Now on to the real point: I would like to have somewhat up to date information. I am willing to buy developers conference notes and the like. I have only one major problem: What is available, how much does it cost, and where do I get it? Can I get on a mailing list that will tell me when new information is available and how to order it? It seems that there are a lot of people who would like to get this kind of thing, if only it were easily available. I guess I am argueing for another level of support. It is real important for some developers to have direct superior access to to insure that their widget is not going to be obsolete by the time it gets to market, and works with the planned next release. There is another group that is just information starved for things that should be well known. The usenet connection has been very valuable. As an example, the serial port would be used in the application, and the talk on the net has made me aware that multiple ports should be planned for. I thank all who have participated in the discussion. Well, I hope I haven't opened another can of worms here, lord knows my global kill file has been getting a workout recently. :-) ;-) | // You've heard of CATS and DOGS, I'm from GOATS, Dave Kinzer | | // Gladly Offering All Their Support! noao!nud!fbog!dbk | | \X/ "My employer's machine, my opinion." (602) 897-3085 |
charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) (12/22/88)
> Anything else that bugs you AmigaPeople?
Posting non-tech noise in .tech.
Cross postings.
Quoting 20 lines of the basenote when 1 line is all that's needed.
Using non-standard quote characters to get around limits of the notes
programs because the person posting is too lazy to remove the unneeded
quote lines.
The pond scum that write viruses.
Copy protection.
--
Charles Brown charles%hpcvca@hplabs.hp.com
Not representing my employer.jesup@cbmvax.UUCP (Randell Jesup) (12/22/88)
In article <1665@fbog.UUCP> dbk@fbog.UUCP (Dave B. Kinzer @ Price Rd. GEG) writes: >In article <10078@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >> Rule #1: Don't Kill The Golden Goose. The people from Commodore- >>Amiga are precisely that: people. They are not Vulcans; they have emotions. > > The developers (tm) pay a (relatively) big chunk of change to have access >to the Amiga people and information. Well, not really. There are two types of developers: registered and commercial. Registered gets AmigaMail, and some other stuff. Commercial gets some other things including access to a private conference on BIX. I think registered is $50 (not a lot), commercial is rather higher ($450 comes to mind). There is an open (to all) amiga.dev conference on bix for developers, registered or not; places to report bugs, etc. I think Carolyn has posted lists of what's available (non- developers included) before, she may do so again. You can always call or write CATS. "official" support is done on BIX, usenet messages are out of the goodness of our hearts. :-) For detailed (and correct :-) info on these call or write CATS. The number escapes me at this hour; the address is CATS, Commodore Business Machines, 1200 Wilson Dr, West Chester, PA 19380. > I would like to have somewhat up to date information. I am willing to >buy developers conference notes and the like. I have only one major problem: >What is available, how much does it cost, and where do I get it? Can I get >on a mailing list that will tell me when new information is available and >how to order it? It seems that there are a lot of people who would like >to get this kind of thing, if only it were easily available. Sounds like the perfect example of someone who should be a registered developer. -- Randell Jesup, Commodore Engineering {uunet|rutgers|allegra}!cbmvax!jesup
karl@sugar.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) (12/22/88)
I too know what a bummer it is to get nothing but criticism in response to hard work. Hopefully, most CA people understand that the great majority of c.s.a readers are behind them 100%. Certainly I am happier about the state of the Amiga right now than at any time since its introduction. A *lot* of things are being done right. I don't know if net people had anything to do with this, but it seems like several things people were calling for have been done. For example, the highly commendable hand-holding of Jerry Pournelle recently has resulted in him saying mostly good things about the Amiga instead of mostly bad things. Anyway, to add my praise to others', thanks y'all for doing what you can to improve the best personal computer on the market. -karl -- -- "We've been following your progress with considerable interest, not to say -- contempt." -- Zaphod Beeblebrox IV -- uunet!sugar!karl, Unix BBS (713) 438-5018
lauren@cbmvax.UUCP (Lauren Brown CATS) (12/23/88)
> I would like to have somewhat up to date information. I am willing to >buy developers conference notes and the like. I have only one major problem: >What is available, how much does it cost, and where do I get it? Can I get >on a mailing list that will tell me when new information is available and >how to order it? It seems that there are a lot of people who would like >to get this kind of thing, if only it were easily available. > I guess I am argueing for another level of support. It is real important >for some developers to have direct superior access to to insure that their >widget is not going to be obsolete by the time it gets to market, and works >with the planned next release. There is another group that is just >information starved for things that should be well known. Actually, we have three levels of support: Commercial Developer Support Program, the highest (and most expensive) level; Certified Developer Support Program, which is what most developers join; and you could sign on for purchase of documentation, or a subscription to AmigaMail (a bi-monthly newsletter from CATS). The for-sale documentation list was to be part of the monthly beginner's posting here, which as yet has not seen the light of day. In the meantime, requests for the list, and info on the developer support programs can be requested by sending email to me. > >| // You've heard of CATS and DOGS, I'm from GOATS, Dave Kinzer | >| // Gladly Offering All Their Support! noao!nud!fbog!dbk | >| \X/ "My employer's machine, my opinion." (602) 897-3085 | -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lauren Brown -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<< 1200 Wilson Drive West Chester, PA 19380 UUCP ...{allegra,uunet,rutger,}!cbmvax!lauren PHONE 215-431-9100 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
lauren@cbmvax.UUCP (Lauren Brown CATS) (12/23/88)
Sorry - that last message from me should include the following line:
"Include your snailmail address when requesting us to send
information."
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lauren Brown -- CBM >>Amiga Technical Support<<
1200 Wilson Drive
West Chester, PA 19380
UUCP ...{allegra,uunet,rutger,}!cbmvax!lauren
PHONE 215-431-9100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=kjohn@richp1.uucp (John Kjellman Counsulatant) (12/28/88)
In article <3139@sugar.uu.net> karl@sugar.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) writes: >I too know what a bummer it is to get nothing but criticism in response to >hard work. Hopefully, most CA people understand that the great majority of >c.s.a readers are behind them 100%. Certainly I am happier about the state >of the Amiga right now than at any time since its introduction. A *lot* >of things are being done right. [more hand waving deleted :-] >Anyway, to add my praise to others', thanks y'all for doing what you can to >improve the best personal computer on the market. > >-karl I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY AGREE !!!!! Everyone from CA(TS) deserves a massive (read MASSIVE :-) pat on the back. Another big pat on the back should extend out to all those PD/Shareware authors (Matt D., John T., ...... [big list]) who rarely are given more than a question or some obscure (sp?) gripe. Anyway, THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE/WILL MAKE THE AMIGA A BETTER MACHINE. Happy Holidays, KJohn P.S. See C.B., some of us really DO care (and I don't even have an Amiga :-). | Amiga ///.5K| Disclaimer: This is only a dream, it's only a dream ........ | | Manic/// 1K| KJohn, the man without an Amiga :-( | | \\\/// 2K| (how much is an A2500/3000 anyways? :-) | | \XX/ 2.5K| kjohn@richp1 or [ purdue | cs.ubc | mcdcchg ] ! richp1 ! kjohn|