DEFRANCO@radc-tops20.arpa (Carl DeFranco) (01/02/89)
I'm not sure this discussion needs to be carried too far, but to clarify the position of employers (not that I agree) who require such agreements, they hold that any ideas developed by you while on their payroll, working in their facilities, using their equipment and software, is THEIRS. You may find that this position has been supported by the courts over the years, whether or not you agree. The stumbling point has always been whether this claim can be extended into your private life, i.e., if you develop some interesting program/technique/algorithm in theprivacy of your home on your own computing equipment, who owns it? The generally accepted view is that IF you used information developed at work in your private efforts, the company may have a valid claim to your work, as long as they can demonstrate that the information is: 1) proprietary and you knew it, and 2) that it is unlikely that you would have developed that idea without access to compnay data. Remember that ideas are not subject to copyright, only the recorded instance of the idea. Carl DeFranco defranco@radc-tops20.arpa -------
darin@nova.laic.uucp (Darin Johnson) (01/03/89)
In article <6185@louie.udel.EDU> DEFRANCO@radc-tops20.arpa (Carl DeFranco) writes: >I'm not sure this discussion needs to be carried too far, but to clarify the >position of employers (not that I agree) who require such agreements, they >hold that any ideas developed by you while on their payroll, working in their >facilities, using their equipment and software, is THEIRS. This sounds fine, but... What about using the equipment on your own time? Such as UNIX utilities/etc. which are difficult to do on your Amy at home. I ran into this snag awhile back. I had written a program for Suns in my own time (since I only get 10 hrs a week to manage Suns), with the chance that I would use it if it ever became "usable". It turned out that lots of people wanted something just like that, so I posted it to the net. A little later, someone from Sun called and asked if I would be willing to discuss rights to the program so that they could include it in a product of theirs (they would support and improve it, but it wouldn't add to the cost of the product it was included in). So naturally, the first thing I did was talk to someone up in the big office on how to do this, since at this point it dawned on me that Lockheed probably owned the rights to it, but would be fair and generous about it. The first thing they had me do was to fill out a public disclosure form, essentially giving me permission to post it in the first place :-) After that, Lockheed wanted to be sure that they wouldn't be held liable, etc. from the software (I had explained that it was next to nil that they could make any money off of it :-), and wanted to see a sample of the license that would go with it, etc. etc. Eventually, I gave up being the middleman, and gave the right phone numbers to Sun and Lockheed to let them fight about it. I assume it's still up in the air at the moment. So, was I wrong to post the program to USENET in the first place? I wonder how many of the things that come over comp.sources.unix have been cleared by the company who owns the computer it was developed on (this doesn't apply to academic sights probably). Should Lockheed own the rights to the program, even though they didn't pay me to write it? (I did use company time to debug it after it was in use for awhile) Come to think of it, how would I, with only an Amiga at home, write a UNIX specific piece of software and be able to own it? What about some of the VMS programs I have written (which is what I really get paid to do) on company time, which would be very useful to put into public domain, but which Lockheed couldn't hope to sell (even if they did that sort of thing)? Of course, on the bright side, I can freely give away all my Amiga source with out worrying about big brother! (hmnn... can I give away executables if I didn't get the 'developer' version of C?) Darin Johnson (leadsv!laic!darin@pyramid.pyramid.com) "You can't fight in here! This is the war room.."
richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (01/03/89)
In article <395@laic.UUCP> darin@nova.UUCP (Darin Johnson) writes: > >This sounds fine, but... What about using the equipment on your own >time? Such as UNIX utilities/etc. which are difficult to do on your >Amy at home. I ran into this snag awhile back. I had written a program My father in law is a lawyer. When I have to sign one of this non-disclosure things, I get him to look at it first. I had to sign one when I worked at a division of Bell & Howell that said ``any software AT ALL you write while employed at Bell & Howell, even if you write it on your own machine on your own time, belongs to Bell & Howell'' Now, it didn't come right out and say that, but it worded such that that was the only possible conslusion. I crossed out that part and signed it. They took it. It doesnt matter what you sign. You have rights under the law, (which vary greatly from state to state, right DBW ? :-) which you DO NOT give up by signing something that appears to give your rights away. In this example, if I hadn't have crossed out that clause, it wouldn't have stuck, because that would be illegal - in california. If you are serious about writing software for money, and you write software for somebody else for a living, ESCPECIALLY if want you want to write for yourself may be construed as competative, you ned to talk to a lawyer. What you read on the net is worth exactly what it costs you. Or less. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. But I look like one. -- Grade Lakes: The name applied to Lakes Spearyer, Urine, Mishigan, Eerie and Untario. They form the largest body of polluted fresh water in the world. richard@gryphon.COM {b'bone}!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (01/03/89)
In article <395@laic.UUCP> darin@nova.UUCP (Darin Johnson) writes: >In article <6185@louie.udel.EDU> DEFRANCO@radc-tops20.arpa (Carl DeFranco) writes: >>I'm not sure this discussion needs to be carried too far, but to clarify the >>position of employers (not that I agree) who require such agreements, they >>hold that any ideas developed by you while on their payroll, working in their >>facilities, using their equipment and software, is THEIRS. The Intellectual Property agreements I've signed (with three different employers) are more far-reaching than that. ANY idea the employee comes up with, whether originated at home or at work, during work hours or not, using company equipment or not, becomes the employer's property. A gracious employer, of course, will grant the the employee the rights to his idea if it is not related to company business. >This sounds fine, but... What about using the equipment on your own >time? Such as UNIX utilities/etc. which are difficult to do on your >Amy at home. Same thing; company property. In this case, the company clearly has a legitimate right to the invention, as it would have been impossible without their financial support. >So, was I wrong to post the program to USENET in the first place? Probably, yes, but your supervisor is the person to ask. Consider, among other things, that your programming may have been influenced by your experience with the company, and you might even have used some coding technique that might be considered proprietary. If your product is handy enough that Sun wants to release it, it could be a moneymaker for your company. >doesn't apply to academic sights probably). Should Lockheed own the >rights to the program, even though they didn't pay me to write it? They should have first choice. You did, after all, use their facilities, at their incurred expense. >Of course, on the bright side, I can freely give away all my Amiga >source with out worrying about big brother! (hmnn... can I give away >executables if I didn't get the 'developer' version of C?) You may want to re-read your Intellectual Property Agreement; technically, the Company may have rights to your Amiga sources, as well. The only way to be safe is to be completely up-front with your supervisor throughout the development process. Some companies are more strict than others; even using company equipment for non-work-related projects can be an infraction against the company, and could technically cost you your job. ------------------------------ valuable coupon ------------------------------- Bill Thacker att!cbnews!wbt "C" combines the power of assembly language with the flexibility of assembly language. Disclaimer: Farg 'em if they can't take a joke ! ------------------------------- clip and save --------------------------------
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (01/04/89)
In article <395@laic.UUCP> darin@nova.UUCP (Darin Johnson) writes: >In article <6185@louie.udel.EDU> DEFRANCO@radc-tops20.arpa (Carl DeFranco) writes: >>I'm not sure this discussion needs to be carried too far, but to clarify the >>position of employers (not that I agree) who require such agreements, they >>hold that any ideas developed by you while on their payroll, working in their >>facilities, using their equipment and software, is THEIRS. Suppose you use their telephone to make some money on the side. Are you liable to them for all the money you made? Sean -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet *** Who sometimes never learns. {backbone site|rutgers|uunet}!ukma!sean *** U of K, Lexington Kentucky, USA ..where Christian movies are banned. *** ``My name is father. You killed my die. Prepare to Inigo Montoya.''