dbk@fbog.UUCP (Dave B. Kinzer @ Price Rd. GEG) (12/10/88)
In article <27086@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> me128-aw@kepler.Berkeley.EDU (me128 student) writes: >Never mind the special paper, what about the Ink Cartridges! >I too paid $800 for a paintjet responding to an ad in the paper. Turns out >it was a "demo" model from HP that was never really used. >I love the printer, but the ink cartridges contain the piezo print elements ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [deletions] > >I've been trying to refill my cartridges, but with limited success. I drill [deletions] >how to stop the clogging. The good thing is, of course, that there's nothing >to lose. If the nozzles clog permanently, you haven't lost anything. > >-Vincent H. Lee I have a ThinkJet printer (thanks for the printer driver in 1.3!!) with the same type of disposable print head. The head works by applying current through a resistor next to a tiny ink chamber. This heats the ink until it vaporizes, forcing the ink in the nozzle to squirt to the page. HP went to great lengths (as described in one of their journals) to create an ink with just the right properties (viscosity, surface tension, condensation to liquid when the vapor bubble cools, etc.) It seems unlikely that an off the shelf ink would be very sucessful here. Of course, the Paintjet printer might work in an entirely different manner, but red, green and blue (and brown) inks are now available for the Thinkjet (sounds suspicious to me :-) :-)). | // You've heard of CATS and DOGS, I'm from GOATS, Dave Kinzer | | // Gladly Offering All Their Support! noao!nud!fbog!dbk | | \X/ "My employer's machine, my opinion." (602) 897-3085 |
yuan@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Yuan 'Hacker' Chang) (12/13/88)
-In article <27086@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> me128-aw@kepler (me128 student) writes: ->Never mind the special paper, what about the Ink Cartridges! ->I too paid $800 for a paintjet responding to an ad in the paper. Turns out ->it was a "demo" model from HP that was never really used. ->I love the printer, but the ink cartridges contain the piezo print elements - ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In article <1614@fbog> dbk@fbog.UUCP (Dave B. Kinzer @ Price Rd. GEG) writes: -I have a ThinkJet printer (thanks for the printer driver in 1.3!!) with -the same type of disposable print head. The head works by applying current -through a resistor next to a tiny ink chamber. The PaintJet has the same type of resistive heated nozzle as the ThinkJet. -Of course, the -Paintjet printer might work in an entirely different manner, but red, -green and blue (and brown) inks are now available for the Thinkjet (sounds -suspicious to me :-) :-)). If the color ThinkJet cartridges use the same type of ink as the PaintJet, then don't get the blue cartridge. The blue fades to about half of its original intensity after about three month (I don't know what happens after that, 'cause that's the oldest printout from a PaintJet we have here. Give me another month and I'll tell you what intensity it's at! 8)... -- Yuan Chang "What can go wrong, did" UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax,dcdwest}!ucsd!nosc!uhccux!yuan ARPA: uhccux!yuan@nosc.MIL "Wouldn't you like to INTERNET: yuan@uhccux.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU be an _A_m_i_g_o_i_d too?!?"
richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (12/16/88)
In article <1614@fbog.UUCP> dbk@fbog.UUCP (Dave B. Kinzer @ Price Rd. GEG) writes: > >I have a ThinkJet printer (thanks for the printer driver in 1.3!!) with >the same type of disposable print head. The head works by applying current >through a resistor next to a tiny ink chamber. This heats the ink until it >vaporizes, forcing the ink in the nozzle to squirt to the page. HP went >to great lengths (as described in one of their journals) to create an ink >with just the right properties (viscosity, surface tension, condensation >to liquid when the vapor bubble cools, etc.) It seems unlikely that >an off the shelf ink would be very sucessful here. Exactly. The formulations of the inks is a very precise science and the tuning of the colours is an art. The Xerox inks are water, pigment and a bit of propylene glycol. The Canon inks are alcohol based. I'm not sure what the HP inks are. I found out what the xerox inks wer made of by reading the manual - it had a product safty thing in the back that told exacly how toxic everything was and even pointed out that the $8 ``cleaning fluid'' was pure water. Ahem. I found out that the Canon inks were alcohol base by calling cannon until I finally got somebody who knew what I was talking about (generally hard to find). I asked Nick Flor in San Diego HP, who wrote the firmware for the printer what was in the inks and the pinhead babbled on about ``proprietry formulas''. Yeah right. At any rate, the Canon inks make the worst colours (the red is orange, the blue is purple and the green is a bit yellow), the Xerox is next (the red is too cyan, the blue is too cyan), the HP is next, it has the same spectral defects as the Canon, just to a lesser extent. Now, Tektronix. Oh Tektronix! Their inks are as perfect as I've ever seen in an ink jet printer. If anyone A) can get some, B) knows if they'll work in a canon printer, SPEAK UP! > Of course, the >Paintjet printer might work in an entirely different manner, but red, >green and blue (and brown) inks are now available for the Thinkjet (sounds >suspicious to me :-) :-)). Sure does. For a decent review of subtractive vs. additive colour systems (RG & B) vs. (CM & Y) check out section 17.4 in Foley and Van Dam _Fundamentals of interactive computer graphics_. (Not to be confused with _Principles of interactive computer graphics_) -- ``Wake me up when it's time to go to sleep'' richard@gryphon.COM {...}!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
daves@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Dave Scroggins) (12/20/88)
>I asked Nick Flor in San Diego HP, who wrote the firmware for the >printer what was in the inks and the pinhead babbled on about ^^^^^^^ >``proprietry formulas''. Yeah right. Now that's not nice! What that probably means is tha powers that be do not want him telling anyone what the ink is made of. They do kind of frown on giving out such information. Dave (Don't know Nick from Adam-) S.
charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) (12/21/88)
> I asked Nick Flor in San Diego HP, who wrote the firmware for the > printer what was in the inks and the pinhead babbled on about > ``proprietry formulas''. Yeah right. > richard@gryphon.COM He could loose his job if he told you anything else. This is a very competitive industry. A great deal of effort goes into developing ink formulas. -- Charles Brown charles%hpcvca@hplabs.hp.com Not representing my employer.
richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (12/24/88)
In article <5660024@hpcvca.HP.COM> another paranoid HP pinhead wrote: >> I asked Nick Flor in San Diego HP, who wrote the firmware for the >> printer what was in the inks and the pinhead babbled on about >> ``proprietry formulas''. Yeah right. >> richard@gryphon.COM > >He could loose his job if he told you anything else. This is a very >competitive industry. A great deal of effort goes into developing ink >formulas. 1) The question I originally asked of Nick was ``are the inks water based, like the xerox inks, or alcohol based like the Canon inks''. I can understand Nicks reluctence to disseminate the complete formula (even if he knew it), but nit saying what the base was is ludicrous. Opening a cartdridge and smelling the stuff will let you know in a second. 2) There are lots of reasons to document whats in the ink. Xerox, with it's 4020 color ink jet printer supplied a manual with the title: ``product safty report'' that has as much data as you'd want on the inks - LD50, radiation harardm flammability, and, what the inks ar comprised of (water, propylene glycol, pigments). It makes sense when you think that if you have a bunch of these things in storage and they start burning, you need to be able to tell the nice fire department people what exactly is burning. Plus there are ethical reasons. If you make nice blues with ferous cyanide, which is very pretty blue, thats all well and good, but you probably will not want to store the {new|used} ink cartridges where a young child can get at them. 3) If you really want to know whats in something, you call up and and imply you are a doctor, and that you have a kid here who just swallowed a bunch of the stuff and you need to know whats in it, and you need to know NOW. Before the word ``lawsuit'' forms in their heads, they've told you whats in the stuff and in what concentrations. Handy sometimes. The HP ink is chemically nothing very special. And if it's ``such a competative industry'' how come HP Paintjets red ink is kinda orange? Tektronix, for their 4692 ink jet printer has outstanding, pure, saturated colours. Their reds are red. Period. -- ``Wake me up when it's time to go to sleep'' richard@gryphon.COM {b'bone}!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
tony@hp-sdd.hp.com (Tony Parkhurst_TEMP) (12/28/88)
In article <9958@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >In article <5660024@hpcvca.HP.COM> another paranoid HP pinhead wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> I asked Nick Flor in San Diego HP, who wrote the firmware for the >>> printer what was in the inks and the pinhead babbled on about >>> ``proprietry formulas''. Yeah right. >>> richard@gryphon.COM Boy, either you have a lot of pent up anger, or you just have a low opinion of human nature. >>He could loose his job if he told you anything else. This is a very >>competitive industry. A great deal of effort goes into developing ink >>formulas. >1) The question I originally asked of Nick was ``are the inks water > based, like the xerox inks, or alcohol based like the Canon > inks''. I can understand Nicks reluctence to disseminate the > complete formula (even if he knew it), but nit saying what > the base was is ludicrous. Opening a cartdridge and smelling the > stuff will let you know in a second. Considering that Nick is not a chemist, and did not work on any aspect of PaintJet in its development, it is not likely that Nick would know what is in the ink. If he happened to come across the formulae, then it is also unlikely that he would know what is secret and what is not. (not a chemist, remember). If all you wanted was some basic info about its base, and you claim the info is easy to come by (as you have), either by toxicity notices or just sniffing one, they why the hell didn't you just find out for yourself! Instead you have decided that someone else has to do it for you, and if they don't, then they are just a "pinhead". Richard, you are very opinionated (as I), and I have agreed with many of your postings, but I just don't see eye-to-eye with your hostility and name calling. <Flaming done for now> Now, I am going to do you a small service, since you are too lazy to do it for yourself.... ok... I now have a PaintJet print cartridge package in front of me... In five languages, it says that it is a PaintJet print cartridge, and use HP PaintJet supplies for best results, (does this mean HP expects someone else to start manufacturing PaintJet print heads?), Made in USA... Black (the color head has about the same package.)... use before 04/90. Nothing about ingredients or warnings. So, I open the box. Inside the box are directions, in six languages, and a foil can (to seal the freshness?). On the can for the color print head, there is no warning, but on the one for the black print head, it says: "Caution -- Keep out of reach of children. If swallowed, call a physician." Then it says "1.4% Tetramethylammonium". In the foil can, it does smell of chemicals (which I cannot identify). The Black print head also has a "harmful if swallowed" label, the color one does not. Well. Does this answer your questions Richard? As an additional note, there was a warning in the internal newsletter about using the foil cans for food storage or cooking because of a toxic heat seal. (This will probably get a warning on future cans.) >2) There are lots of reasons to document whats in the ink. Xerox, with > it's 4020 color ink jet printer supplied a manual with the title: > ``product safty report'' that has as much data as you'd want on > the inks - LD50, radiation harardm flammability, and, what the ^^^^ Geesh, I wonder just how many animals died to determine this info. >3) If you really want to know whats in something, you call up and > and imply you are a doctor, and that you have a kid here who > just swallowed a bunch of the stuff and you need to know > whats in it, and you need to know NOW. Before the word > ``lawsuit'' forms in their heads, they've told you whats > in the stuff and in what concentrations. Handy sometimes. Are you saying that you commonly practice lying to and misleading people (or even causing severe emotional trama) for the sake of stealing company secrets? :-) >The HP ink is chemically nothing very special. Neither is plastic. :-) Actually, water, although it may not seem special, has one of the most special chemistries on this planet :-) It is probably true that the ink is nothing special, it still required much time and money to develop them. >And if it's ``such a competative industry'' how come HP Paintjets >red ink is kinda orange? Tektronix, for their 4692 ink jet printer This seems like a subjective statement. Someone ought to measure this :-) >has outstanding, pure, saturated colours. Their reds are red. >Period. One problem I have noticed with good saturated colors, is that is starts to become limiting in your graphic printouts when you lighten or brighten some of the shades. These inks are subtractive, remember. Another thing to consider is that different papers seem to saturate differently. This was just another difficulty in ink development. I use my PaintJet with an Amiga, and I always end up altering the colors a bit when I print them out. Usually, I decrease the saturation of the darker colors. -- Tony -- Tony Parkhurst ( tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM )
charles@hpcvca.HP.COM (Charles Brown) (12/28/88)
> >He could loose his job if he told you anything else. This is a very > >competitive industry. A great deal of effort goes into developing ink > >formulas. > 1) The question I originally asked of Nick was ``are the inks water > based, like the xerox inks, or alcohol based like the Canon > inks''. I can understand Nicks reluctence to disseminate the > complete formula (even if he knew it), but nit saying what > the base was is ludicrous. Opening a cartdridge and smelling the > stuff will let you know in a second. I don't know what information is officially released and what is not. I assume Nick is in the same position. I know HP can get picky about employees making statements made without official approval. However, if you send me your USnail address I may be able to find an (almost) empty cartridge for you to open. > 2) There are lots of reasons to document whats in the ink. Xerox, with > it's 4020 color ink jet printer supplied a manual with the title: > ``product safty report'' that has as much data as you'd want on etc, etc. That makes sense to me. I am just not in a position to do anything about it. > 3) If you really want to know whats in something, you call up and > and imply you are a doctor, and that you have a kid here who > just swallowed a bunch of the stuff and you need to know > whats in it, and you need to know NOW. This sounds unethical to me. > And if it's ``such a competative industry'' how come HP Paintjets > red ink is kinda orange? Tektronix, for their 4692 ink jet printer > has outstanding, pure, saturated colours. Their reds are red. > Period. > --richard@gryphon.COM The quality of colors in dies is purely subjective. There is no standard. I am looking at the colors now. I am suprised at your complaint. They look really good to me. The red looks, well, red. -- Charles Brown charles%hpcvca@hplabs.hp.com The opinions here are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.
richard@pande.UUCP (richard) (12/28/88)
(To all you readers of .amiga: flame warning. There is some techie junk about colour printers and inks at the end that you may or may not want to read. To all you alt.flame readers: Fuck off (tm)) In article <1787@hp-sdd.HP.COM> tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Tony Parkhurst) writes: >In article <9958@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >>In article <5660024@hpcvca.HP.COM> another paranoid HP pinhead wrote: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Got it now ? >>>> I asked Nick Flor in San Diego HP, who wrote the firmware for the >>>> printer what was in the inks and the pinhead babbled on about >>>> ``proprietry formulas''. Yeah right. >>>> richard@gryphon.COM > >Boy, either you have a lot of pent up anger, or you just have a low opinion >of human nature. or: c) I have a lot of pent up opinions about human nature. d) I lake to flame pinheads that I feel deserve it. e) I am frustrated with HP's lack of responsivness to somebody asking information about their product, in hopes that it will fit my application. >Considering that Nick is not a chemist, and did not work on any aspect >of PaintJet in its development, it is not likely that Nick would know >what is in the ink. If he happened to come across the formulae, then >it is also unlikely that he would know what is secret and what is not. >(not a chemist, remember). Alright, what happened was I asked Nick the question above, and he said: ``I wrote the firmware for it, I'm not a chemist.'' He forwarded the question to a chemist who would'nt tell me anything. >If all you wanted was some basic info about its base, and you claim the info >is easy to come by (as you have), either by toxicity notices or just sniffing >one, they why the hell didn't you just find out for yourself! Instead you >have decided that someone else has to do it for you, and if they don't, >then they are just a "pinhead". Well, you see Tony, I though it might make sense to ask one of you HP'ers first, and if that failed, find out for myself. And as I said, the easiest way to get this kind of info is by talking to the *right* people, and get them to think they *have to* tell you. >Richard, you are very opinionated (as I), and I have agreed with many of >your postings, but I just don't see eye-to-eye with your hostility and >name calling. Yeah, well, wadda ya gonna do about it, fuckhead ? Sorry, couldnt resist. Recreational flaming, and all that. I actually like your steeenking printer. ><Flaming done for now> > >Now, I am going to do you a small service, since you are too lazy to do it >for yourself.... Lazy ? ME ? You missed the part where I said I already had the answers to my questions, but go on..... >ok... I now have a PaintJet print cartridge package in front of me... >In five languages, it says that it is a PaintJet print cartridge, and use >HP PaintJet supplies for best results, (does this mean HP expects someone >else to start manufacturing PaintJet print heads?), Made in USA... Black >(the color head has about the same package.)... use before 04/90. >Nothing about ingredients or warnings. > >So, I open the box. Inside the box are directions, in six languages, and >a foil can (to seal the freshness?). On the can for the color print head, >there is no warning, but on the one for the black print head, it says: >"Caution -- Keep out of reach of children. If swallowed, call a physician." >Then it says "1.4% Tetramethylammonium". Hmm. They told me 1.5% >In the foil can, it does smell of chemicals (which I cannot identify). >The Black print head also has a "harmful if swallowed" label, the color one >does not. > >Well. Does this answer your questions Richard? No, Tony it doesnt. My REAL questions were 1) are the colours better that the Canon inks? 2) Are they as good as the Tektronix inks? 3) Are the HP inks water or alcohol based? If they are alcohol based 4) can I use them in a Canon printer? >As an additional note, there was a warning in the internal newsletter about >using the foil cans for food storage or cooking because of a toxic heat seal. >(This will probably get a warning on future cans.) Oh, this is good. Become an HP employee and discover their comsumer products a very very bad for you. Cool. >>2) There are lots of reasons to document whats in the ink. Xerox, with >> it's 4020 color ink jet printer supplied a manual with the title: >> ``product safty report'' that has as much data as you'd want on >> the inks - LD50, radiation harardm flammability, and, what the > ^^^^ >Geesh, I wonder just how many animals died to determine this info. Who cares. They're just animals. Were talking important human endevours here, like COLOUR PRINTERS! >>3) If you really want to know whats in something, you call up and >> and imply you are a doctor, and that you have a kid here who >> just swallowed a bunch of the stuff and you need to know >> whats in it, and you need to know NOW. Before the word >> ``lawsuit'' forms in their heads, they've told you whats >> in the stuff and in what concentrations. Handy sometimes. > >Are you saying that you commonly practice lying to and misleading people >(or even causing severe emotional trama) for the sake of stealing >company secrets? :-) Yes. Anything in particular you want to know ? If you HP people had the ethics of Xerox and the sense of aesthetics of Tektronix, we would'nt have these problems, now, would we, hmm ? >It is probably true that the ink is nothing special, it still required >much time and money to develop them. Fine. And I can appreciate that. And I can appreciate the fact you want to keep the formula secret. But the scenario is: ``Hi HP. I have one of your competitors colour printers. I have no intention to buy another colour printer, yours or anyone elses, but I might be interested in throwing some money at you to buy your inks if they will work in my printer.'' And I got: ``WE VILL NOT TELL YOUR OUR SECRETS''. I was impressed, let me tell you. >>And if it's ``such a competative industry'' how come HP Paintjets >>red ink is kinda orange? Tektronix, for their 4692 ink jet printer > >This seems like a subjective statement. Someone ought to measure this :-) Ok, do a simple test. Get printer output from your printer and a Tektronix printer. Put them side by side by side. Now, notice that the HP's red is sorta orange, and the Tektronix's is RED. There are companmies that will quantify these differences for you with nice CIE chromaticity numbers, but why do I have to tell you this ? >>has outstanding, pure, saturated colours. Their reds are red. >>Period. > >One problem I have noticed with good saturated colors, is that is starts >to become limiting in your graphic printouts when you lighten or brighten >some of the shades. These inks are subtractive, remember. Hmm. I agree in principle with you, although I've seen Tek printouts that had smooth shading that were fabulous. No problems in this area. >Another thing to consider is that different papers seem to saturate differently. Yes, the ink jet technology is one that you must essentially use the paper that the company who makes the printer specifies. Although there are papers made for other appliations that sometmes work as well. Hard to find and expensive though. >I use my PaintJet with an Amiga, and I always end up altering the colors a >bit when I print them out. Usually, I decrease the saturation of the darker >colors. It's worse with the Canon. You want blue ? Make it look green on the screen ? You want Red ? Tough. Although, for all colour printers, it seems a correction has to be made. If Kevin McBride (the guy in the cast) still had net.access, he would pop in here and point out that only Eikonix doesnt suffer from this syndrome. The conversion of absolute RGB, or screen colours, to printer colours is one that is left up to the user in the case of the Amiga system software, but is handled by the system software in the case of Eikonix. Hint, hint, guys. >Tony Parkhurst ( tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM ) You ever read that old thing that popped around rec.humor every six months ``Lunch at HP''. I felt like the guy in the story trying to order a cheeseburger when was trying to find out if you'se guys inks were alcohol or water based. It's too bad I had to call you guys pinheads to get you to respond. But thanks anyway. Cheers, -- ``It's either Spanish or Latin'' -- Mike Fennell richard@gryphon.COM {b'bone}!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.nasa.GOV
jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Jim Wright) (12/28/88)
In article <1787@hp-sdd.HP.COM> tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Tony Parkhurst) writes: >In article <9958@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >>In article <5660024@hpcvca.HP.COM> another paranoid HP pinhead wrote: >>2) There are lots of reasons to document whats in the ink. Xerox, with >> it's 4020 color ink jet printer supplied a manual with the title: >> ``product safty report'' that has as much data as you'd want on >> the inks - LD50, radiation harardm flammability, and, what the > ^^^^ >Geesh, I wonder just how many animals died to determine this info. Geesh, I wonder just how many people will NOT die because they did determine this info.
oconnor@sungoddess.steinmetz (Dennis M. O'Connor) (12/28/88)
I've flamed richard@gryphon over in alt.flame, but spared
comp.sys.amiga even though the ***hole set the follow-up line
to c.s.a after xposting to alt.flame.
I'm sure c.s.a readers will appreciate that little stunt, richie.
You trying to swamp c.s.a with flames, that is.
But in re the issue :
HP printers ability to use HP inks ( assuming HP inks are
superior to cheaper printer's inks ) is a competitive advantage
that sells HP printers. HP therefor is not about to reveal
that cheaper printers can use the high-quality HP inks.
Not even to please richard@gryphon. Who seems too stupid ( or at
least to self-centered and selfish ) to have thought of this himself.
--
Dennis O'Connor oconnor%sungod@steinmetz.UUCP ARPA: OCONNORDM@ge-crd.arpa
"I've discovered how to stop stupid people from flaming :
lead them to believe you enjoy it. That really frosts them"tony@hp-sdd.hp.com (Tony Parkhurst_TEMP) (12/29/88)
(Time to water down the flames a bit ...) In article <158@pande.UUCP> richard@gryphon.COM (!Matt Crawford) writes: >To all you alt.flame readers: Fuck off (tm)) How quaint. >In article <1787@hp-sdd.HP.COM> tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Tony Parkhurst) writes: >>In article <9958@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >>>In article <5660024@hpcvca.HP.COM> another paranoid HP pinhead wrote: >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Got it now ? From your expertise Richard, does it take one to know one?!? >d) I lake to flame pinheads that I feel deserve it. I think you just lake to flame :-| >Well, you see Tony, I though it might make sense to ask one of >you HP'ers first, and if that failed, find out for myself. It seems that you still haven't bothered to do that, so, being that I am a NICE "pinhead", I going to help you out some more: From the August, 1988 issue of the "Hewlett-Packard Journal" (available at any descent technical library...): "[the solvent carrier] is a combination of water and hydroxylated alkyl ethers and the dyes are organic compounds that have been solubilized in the [solvent] using sulfonates and monovalent species ..., or cationic organic amines." This issue of the HP Journal has lots and lots of info about the PaintJet from hardware, to pen heads to firmware to inks to papers etc. >>Richard, you are very opinionated (as I), and I have agreed with many of >>your postings, but I just don't see eye-to-eye with your hostility and >>name calling. >Yeah, well, wadda ya gonna do about it, fuckhead ? Nothing. >Sorry, couldnt resist. Recreational flaming, and all that. Take this as you will, but here I put you in the same class as Nick Flor. >No, Tony it doesnt. My REAL questions were 1) are the colours better that >the Canon inks? 2) Are they as good as the Tektronix inks? 3) Are the >HP inks water or alcohol based? If they are alcohol based 4) can >I use them in a Canon printer? 1) subjective. 2) "" 3) water 4) quite unlikely. a) The inks are only available in the expensive print cartrige packaging. b) The Canon printer is a different animal. >Oh, this is good. Become an HP employee and discover their comsumer >products a very very bad for you. Cool. This is a little unrealistic since the packaging was never intended for any other use than packing the pen. Who would think before product shipping that someone might use the foil packaging for microwaving food? >>> the inks - LD50, radiation harardm flammability, and, what the >> ^^^^ >>Geesh, I wonder just how many animals died to determine this info. >Who cares. They're just animals. Were talking important human >endevours here, like COLOUR PRINTERS! I only mention this because the current storyline in Bloom County has to do with animal testing. >> [questioning Richards ethics...] >Yes. Anything in particular you want to know ? If you HP people had the Nope, if I ever get a phone call from an alledged doctor wanting company secrets... "Is that you Richard?!?" >``Hi HP. I have one of your competitors colour printers. I have no >intention to buy another colour printer, yours or anyone elses, but >I might be interested in throwing some money at you to buy your inks >if they will work in my printer.'' Get real. >It's too bad I had to call you guys pinheads to get you to respond. >But thanks anyway. Next time I will send a letter bomb via e-mail. -- Tony -- Tony Parkhurst ( tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM )
kim@odin.ucsd.edu (The Cruiser) (12/29/88)
In article <1787@hp-sdd.HP.COM> tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Tony Parkhurst) writes: >In article <9958@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >>In article <5660024@hpcvca.HP.COM> another paranoid HP pinhead wrote: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>> I asked Nick Flor in San Diego HP, who wrote the firmware for the >>>> printer what was in the inks and the pinhead babbled on about >>>> ``proprietry formulas''. Yeah right. >>>> richard@gryphon.COM > >Boy, either you have a lot of pent up anger, or you just have a low opinion >of human nature. > Hey Tony, I guess you're new cuz I haven't seen you post before, but don't even bother with this Sexton guy. He's always trying to start a little flame war with someone, and he's often wrong!!!! For instance, I remember the posting he referred to and I distinctly recall Nick posting that he WROTE a PRINTER DRIVER FOR THE PAINTJET, not that he wrote the firmware. > >Richard, you are very opinionated (as I), and I have agreed with many of >your postings, but I just don't see eye-to-eye with your hostility and >name calling. > Oh, so you have seen his postings? Well then why bother replying. He'll probably follow up by calling you a f*ckhead, or ***hole, or some other juvenile taunt. Here is evidence of more stupidity: >>And if it's ``such a competative industry'' how come HP Paintjets >>red ink is kinda orange? Tektronix, for their 4692 ink jet printer COLOR IS SUBJECTIVE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Cruiser, the obnoxious CS graduate student from h*ll --my opinions, not necessarrily the universities-- __________________________________________________________________________ / My greatest fear is that someday they'll discover exactly what part of / /the human anatomy an 'Uhnus' is. [geoffk @sdcsvax!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!belfry] / /_________________________________________________________________________/
richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (12/30/88)
In article <5704@sdcsvax.UUCP> kim@odin.ucsd.edu.UUCP (The Cruiser) writes: >In article <1787@hp-sdd.HP.COM> tony@hp-sdd.HP.COM (Tony Parkhurst_TEMP) writes: > >Hey Tony, I guess you're new cuz I haven't seen you post before, but don't >even bother with this Sexton guy. He's always trying to start a little flame >war with someone, and he's often wrong!!!! For instance, I remember the >posting he referred to and I distinctly recall Nick posting that he >WROTE a PRINTER DRIVER FOR THE PAINTJET, not that he wrote the firmware. Mea culpa. Tony's not new. Just _TEMP. >Oh, so you have seen his postings? Well then why bother replying. He'll >probably follow up by calling you a f*ckhead, or ***hole, or some other >juvenile taunt. Right. Ask somebody at your site who knows how to use the software, and put me in your kill file. Do us both a favour. >Here is evidence of more stupidity: >>>And if it's ``such a competative industry'' how come HP Paintjets >>>red ink is kinda orange? Tektronix, for their 4692 ink jet printer > >COLOR IS SUBJECTIVE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. No it's not. Ever see the CIE chromaticity chart ? Ever see the ads in technical trade rags for the company (can't remember the name) that, for a fee, will quantify your deviation from CIE chromaticity coordinates ? I guess not. >Cruiser, the obnoxious CS graduate student from h*ll Such language. Please use ``H*ck''. I'm offended. In an unencrypted newesgroup as well. Tsk tsk. -- I got a lump of coal. richard@gryphon.COM {b'bone}!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
klm@wang7.UUCP (klm) (01/04/89)
In article <158@pande.UUCP>, richard@pande.UUCP (richard) writes: > > Although, for all colour printers, it seems a correction has to be made. Yup. > If Kevin McBride (the guy in the cast) still had net.access, he would pop > in here and point out that only Eikonix doesnt suffer from this syndrome. NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH!!! (see below) Actually, Richard, I'm flattered. It's nice to know that somebody remembers me. > The conversion of absolute RGB, or screen colours, to printer colours > is one that is left up to the user in the case of the Amiga system software, > but is handled by the system software in the case of Eikonix. Hint, hint, > guys. Hey, I'm still here. I'm just being uncharacteristically quiet. I'm also at a different address from where I used to be. My current employer gives me assignments that I ENJOY (for the most part. Contrast that with DREADING going to work every day.) Also, no more cast. My ankle is much better. My left shoulder however,.... Eikonix (my former employer) does suffer greatly from this problem. In fact, we all suffered so greatly that very few of us are left. We were sacrificed so that the customer would have great f---king color. Sc-mb-gs. :-) But, enough about corporate politics. :-) What we have is a color science problem. It is not trivial. Yes, we did it "correctly" at Eikonix, but we used 3 array processors and a PDP-11 to acheive our results. Not very practical for "affordable solutions" on low cost equipment, eh? If you're feeling really masochistic, pick up a copy of "Color Science: Concepts and Methods, Quantitative Data and Formulae" Second Edition by Gunter Wyszecki and W. S. Stiles. Copyright 1982 John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Keep in mind that all of this discussion about "Orange Reds" vs. "Red Reds" is extremely subjective. Color Science attempts to add a certain amount of objectivity to the human perception of different wavelengths of light. Red is Red and Blue is Blue simply because we say it is. If that isn't subjective, I don't know what is. In summary, to get from the screen to the printer, you want to accurately map an additive color space (RGB) to a subtractive color space (YMCK) You need to know the characteristics of the phosphors in your CRT and you need to know the characteristics of the ink AND paper in your printer. In a graphic arts shop, they even know the characteristics of the light source they use to view proofs! Finally, you need a whole hell of a lot of compute horsepower to get from point A to point B. IF you do it right, you should be able to view soft copy and hardcopy side-by-side, under controlled conditions, and not see any difference in color. I'd show you part of the formula involved, but it's a trade secret. :-) Seriously though, if you really want to know, read the book. Anyway, I'm here, but I'm busy and have a flakey news feed. -- Kevin McBride Another // | A cure for AIDS has been found. Wang Laboratories Proud // | They've given it a Yamaha part Desktop Image Systems \\ // Amiga | number so now noone can get it. ...!ima!wang7!klm \X/ owner | - Motorcyclist Magazine
bdb@becker.UUCP (Bruce Becker) (01/07/89)
In article <2629@wang7.UUCP> you write: +----------------- |[...] |What we have is a color science problem. It is not trivial. Yes, we did |it "correctly" at Eikonix, but we used 3 array processors and a PDP-11 to |acheive our results. Not very practical for "affordable solutions" on low |cost equipment, eh? | |If you're feeling really masochistic, pick up a copy of "Color Science: |Concepts and Methods, Quantitative Data and Formulae" Second Edition by |Gunter Wyszecki and W. S. Stiles. Copyright 1982 John Wiley & Sons, Inc. +----------------- Dam' pricey she is - Anybody like to sell me a used one? +----------------- |Keep in mind that all of this discussion about "Orange Reds" vs. "Red Reds" |is extremely subjective. Color Science attempts to add a certain amount |of objectivity to the human perception of different wavelengths of light. |Red is Red and Blue is Blue simply because we say it is. If that isn't |subjective, I don't know what is. | |In summary, to get from the screen to the printer, you want to accurately |map an additive color space (RGB) to a subtractive color space (YMCK) |You need to know the characteristics of the phosphors in your CRT and you |need to know the characteristics of the ink AND paper in your printer. In |a graphic arts shop, they even know the characteristics of the light source |they use to view proofs! Finally, you need a whole hell of a lot of compute |horsepower to get from point A to point B. IF you do it right, you should |be able to view soft copy and hardcopy side-by-side, under controlled |conditions, and not see any difference in color. +----------------- Also read Oct. 88 issue of ACM Trans. on Graphics, Vol. 7 # 3. "Color Gamut Mapping and the Printing of Digital Color Images", by Maureen C. Stone, William B. Cowan, & John C. Beatty, pp 249-292. This paper was first presented in 1986, but it's still way ahead in a lot of ways - it also leaves a lot of issues open, more or less left as an exercise for the reader 8^)... Also see Appendix III of Raster Graphics Handbook, 2nd. Ed., by Conrac Corp. (Van Nostrand, 1985). This gives the RGB to CIE transforms & covers the basic issues of color programming (but not all the subtleties)... +----------------- |Kevin McBride Another // | A cure for AIDS has been found. |Wang Laboratories Proud // | They've given it a Yamaha part |Desktop Image Systems \\ // Amiga | number so now noone can get it. |...!ima!wang7!klm \X/ owner | - Motorcyclist Magazine +----------------- Cheers, -- _ _/\ Bruce Becker Toronto, Ont. \`o O| Internet: bdb@becker.UUCP, bruce@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu \(")/ BitNet: BECKER@HUMBER.BITNET ---mm-U-mm--- "The OSF is suffering from Penix envy" - Rocky Raccoon