ecphssrw@solaria.csun.edu (Stephen Walton) (12/20/88)
In article <Dec.18.20.38.03.1988.3117@topaz.rutgers.edu> armhold@topaz.rutgers.edu (George Armhold) writes: >Regarding the 'killing off' of 1000's: >TRUE! There are many 1000 owners out there who will not fork over the >$$ for a 2000! Yes, but it also seems to be true that not many 1000 owners want to upgrade their existing machine either, judging by the underwhelming suppport ASDG got for their 2000-and-1 quasi-announcement.* I fear that the truth is, if you want significant expandability, you'll have to get a 2000. And yes, I put my money where my mouth is: I took the $$ I saved last summer for an A1000 hard disk and replaced it with a 2000 instead. I'm not sorry, though I'm still hard-disk-less. *Note: This was where ASDG sent out several thousand flyers as well as a USENET announcement saying, "We're ready to produce the 2000-and-1 if we can sell enough of them. Send a $100 refundable deposit now and if we get enough checks we'll produce." They got something like 10% of the required number of deposits. The amiga.racks subtopic of the asdg topic on BIX has vanished. -- Stephen Walton, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, Cal State Univ. Northridge RCKG01M@CALSTATE.BITNET ecphssrw@afws.csun.edu swalton@solar.stanford.edu ...!csun!afws.csun.edu!bcphssrw
mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) (12/21/88)
ecphssrw@solaria.csun.edu (Stephen Walton) writes: > Yes, but it also seems to be true that not many 1000 owners want to > upgrade their existing machine either, judging by the underwhelming > suppport ASDG got for their 2000-and-1 quasi-announcement.* NOT TRUE. When I was shopping for extra memory and a hard disk interface for my 1000, I honestly wanted to "do it right"; I wanted to find an A2000-compatible card cage, buy an A2000 DMA disk controller, and purchase a Zorro II memory board somewhere farther down the line. I am not made of money. ASDG was planning on offering the 2000-and-1 for something like $899. That is a VERY steep prerequisite for adding peripherals to my system -- a prerequisite I simply cannot afford. If I could afford the 2000-and-1, I would be better off selling my 1000 and replacing it with a 2000 -- I would get the video slot, the capability of using the new chipset, and have a system that wouldn't take up an entire desk. It is not surprising that ASDG only got about 30 reservations out of the 300 they needed to do a production run. The other two alternatives in the A1000 card cage market were the Pacific Peripherals SubSystem 1000 and the Bill's Boards BusExpander. The PP product was major vaporware, though it was close to the ideal expansion product: three Zorro II slots with bus pass-through, sits under the machine, $299 suggested retail -- a product which had most of what I wanted and didn't cost a fortune. If PP hadn't continually pushed back the release date on the thing I probably would have waited for it -- is it available yet? The last time I talked with the people at PP they said "mid-december". The Bill's Boards product, while cheaper than the 2000-and-1, is still pretty expensive ($495, not including the cost of the power supply and baby-AT case you'll have to purchase separately) and leaves out the one feature that would justify such a price; the A2000 co-processor slot (which was to be included in the 2000-and-1). So IMHO, the problem is not that A1000 owners don't want to expand their machines, it's that they have shit to choose from in the marketplace. I bagged the idea of buying a cardcage and bought a Microbotics Starboard + Stardrive. It's not what I originally wanted, but it is relatively inexpensive and it does the job. If one of the peripheral manufacturers could come out with the following product I think they could get some sales: * Two or three Zorro II slots * A2000 coprocessor slot * bus pass-through not necessary * suggested retail less than $399 Unfortunately, it would require some intelligent thought from them. -- Michael Portuesi / Information Technology Center / Carnegie Mellon University INET: mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu / BITNET: mp1u+%andrew.cmu.edu@cmccvb UUCP: ...harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!mp1u+ "I'm very sorry, Master, but that WAS the backup system" -- Slave
jmpiazza@sunybcs.uucp (Joseph M. Piazza) (12/21/88)
In article <420@solaria.csun.edu> ecphssrw@solaria.csun.edu (Stephen R. Walton) writes: >In article <Dec.18.20.38.03.1988.3117@topaz.rutgers.edu> >armhold@topaz.rutgers.edu (George Armhold) writes: >>Regarding the 'killing off' of 1000's: >>TRUE! There are many 1000 owners out there who will not fork over the >>$$ for a 2000! How about "can't fork over?" >Yes, but it also seems to be true that not many 1000 owners want to >upgrade their existing machine either, judging by the underwhelming >support ASDG got for their 2000-and-1 quasi-announcement. > >This was where ASDG sent out several thousand flyers as well as >a USENET announcement saying, "We're ready to produce the 2000-and-1 >if we can sell enough of them. Send a $100 refundable deposit now and >if we get enough checks we'll produce." They got something like 10% of >the required number of deposits. The amiga.racks subtopic of the asdg >topic on BIX has vanished. Considering the cost of the beastie: [ a "no-risk" $100 deposit, will be able to purchase the 2000-and-1 at $799 [instead of its slated $899 list price) [From: cheung@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Wilson Cheung) it's seems to me that you may as well buy a 2000 and gain the Video slot and new custom chip set. >I fear that the truth is, if you want significant expandability, you'll have >to get a 2000. That's the problem: there isn't a MODEST expansion box available for the 1000. I would have been quite happy (about six months ago) with a two or three Zorro II slot box that could power a hard disk and let me transfer the controller and drive to a 2000 in the future AND cost only $300 or so. The closest product I've found is the SubSystem 1000 from Pacific Peripherals but it is STILL not available. And when I consider that my local Amiga shop doesn't carry the SubSystem 500 because it is, shall we say, "fragile," forget it. > And yes, I put my money where my mouth is: I took the $$ I saved >last summer for an A1000 hard disk and replaced it with a 2000 instead. >I'm not sorry, though I'm still hard-disk-less. I did the same thing. But since I'm a real person (i.e., no longer a student; now I work for a living :-) I'll scrape up enough bucks for the hard disk in a relatively short time. I still own my 1000 though so I can still look forward to a 1000 expansion box but I'm not holding my breath. I would like to see a discussion of expansion boxes: are they too difficult to make? Would the basic machine (e.g., an Amiga 500) need to be significantly redesigned to accommodate such an expansion? (a few Zorro slots, CPU slot, maybe a video slot). That is, would it be more conceivable to design: * an Amiga 1100 that has a CPU and a Video slot and offer an expansion box that has Zorro II slots and two or three drive bays? OR * an Amiga 1200 which has three or four Zorro II slots, no PC slots, and a CPU and a Video slot, and one or two drive bays? Personally, I'd love the 1200 machine, yet the 1100 would be great for tighter budgets like like families and college students. Flip side, joe piazza --- In capitalism, man exploits man. In communism, it's the other way around. CS Dept. SUNY at Buffalo 14260 UUCP: ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!jmpiazza GEnie:jmpiazza BITNET: jmpiazza@sunybcs.BITNET Internet: jmpiazza@cs.Buffalo.edu >Stephen Walton, RCKG01M@CALSTATE.BITNET ecphssrw@afws.csun.edu >swalton@solar.stanford.edu ...!csun!afws.csun.edu!bcphssrw
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (12/22/88)
in article <3363@cs.Buffalo.EDU>, jmpiazza@sunybcs.uucp (Joseph M. Piazza) says: > I would like to see a discussion of expansion boxes: are they too > difficult to make? Would the basic machine (e.g., an Amiga 500) need to > be significantly redesigned to accommodate such an expansion? An expansion box isn't all the hard to design, electronically speaking. It's probably more of a challange to design one that'll pass FCC certification, which is a concern of anyone selling finished commercial units. The actual electronic design of a Zorro II compatible box is reasonably well detailed in the booklet "Schematics and Expansion Specifications" book, available from CATS. More thinking would have to go in to also support a CPU slot, but I believe it's possible. You're out of luck on supporting a video slot in such an expansion box, however. The most difficult part, especially where the A500's concerned, is the mechanical design of the box. Like, where do you put the darned thing? Still, even if no commercial design can be done, it would certainly be possible to do a kit type design, along the lines of LUCAS. But again, the electronics in this case are the easy part (of course, you're talking to an electronics guy here; maybe there are lots of mechanical designers out there with ideas on this too?). > * an Amiga 1100 that has a CPU and a Video slot and offer an > expansion box that has Zorro II slots and two or three drive bays? > OR > * an Amiga 1200 which has three or four Zorro II slots, no PC > slots, and a CPU and a Video slot, and one or two drive bays? And you could probably sell this "1200" machine for maybe $100 or even $200 less than an A2000, retail. All you're cutting out, it would seem, is the cost of a few edge connectors and a little case area. The "1100" idea would certainly make for a nice little '020 or '030 machine; you put something like an A2620 in the CPU slot, add on a HD controller, and you have a 5 meg machine. Then again, building an adaptor that only houses a CPU slot device for the A1000 or A500 would not be all that difficult, either. But passthrough is always trouble. Maybe what you really want is an add-on that sports one CPU slot and one or two ZII slots. But again, the next guy won't want the CPU slot, but instead want two or three ZII slots (2 meg cards are certainly cheaper than 68020 cards with RAM). > Flip side, > joe piazza -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy Amiga -- It's not just a job, it's an obsession
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (12/22/88)
I'd probably be able to buy an expansion box if one was available for a couple of hundred bucks with a power supply, pass through, and three Z-II slots for a hard disk controller and two 2-meg memory cards (I have 4 meg of 256K chips, you see...). I wouldn't expect a coprocessor slot for that price. But most of the 2000-and-1 capabilities are ir-relevant for me. -- Peter "Have you hugged your wolf today" da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net
ewilts%Janus.MRC.AdhocNet.CA%UNCAEDU.BITNET@CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL.EDU (Ed Wilts - CandianOxy) (12/23/88)
Dave Haynie writes: >And you could probably sell this "1200" machine for maybe $100 or even >$200 less than an A2000, retail. All you're cutting out, it would >seem, is the cost of a few edge connectors and a little case area. You're making the assumption that the "few edge connectors and a little case area" are inexpensive. The difference between a 500 and a 2000 is just these same "few edge connectors and a little case area" and a different power supply. The difference in retail cost locally (Calgary, Alberta) is about $1600 (A500 w/1Mb = $1000, A2000 = $2600). Now perhaps you can understand why some users have a hard time trying to justify "upgrading" from a 1000 to a 2000. $1600 for a heavy duty power supply, a few edge connectors, a hunk of plastic case, and a lot of air is rather steep. .../Ed (still a 1000 owner)
monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) (12/23/88)
In article <5546@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >in article <3363@cs.Buffalo.EDU>, jmpiazza@sunybcs.uucp (Joseph M. Piazza) says: > >probably more of a challange to design one that'll pass FCC certification, >which is a concern of anyone selling finished commercial units. The actual >electronic design of a Zorro II compatible box is reasonably well detailed >in the booklet "Schematics and Expansion Specifications" book, available from >CATS. More thinking would have to go in to also support a CPU slot, but I >believe it's possible. You're out of luck on supporting a video slot in >such an expansion box, however. > >The most difficult part, especially where the A500's concerned, is the >mechanical design of the box. Like, where do you put the darned thing? > >Still, even if no commercial design can be done, it would certainly be >possible to do a kit type design, along the lines of LUCAS. But again, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I hope Brad Fowles is reading this. That would really pep up the A1000 used machine market place. Just think two or three Zorro II slots laying on top of your 1000(or under it or next to it). Maybe throw in 1 Meg on the board????? Bare board less than $100..... Guess I'm just dreaming and wishing again. Sigh........ Monty SDADS
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (12/23/88)
In article <6084@louie.udel.EDU> ewilts%Janus.MRC.AdhocNet.CA%UNCAEDU.BITNET@CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL.EDU (Ed Wilts - CandianOxy) writes: |The difference in retail cost locally (Calgary, Alberta) is about $1600 (A500 |w/1Mb = $1000, A2000 = $2600). Now perhaps you can understand why some users |have a hard time trying to justify "upgrading" from a 1000 to a 2000. |$1600 for a heavy duty power supply, a few edge connectors, a hunk of plastic |case, and a lot of air is rather steep. Yea, and the processor, custom chips, and 1 Meg RAM are FREE, right? :-) And by the way, you DON'T HAVE to buy the A2000 or upgrade, if you don't want to. Just keep your A1000, and stop bitching and whining. I guess after the "piracy" thread to add to my KILL buffer, now it's the time of year of the "A1000->A2000 upgrade" thread: so I'll add "Death" and "A1000" to my KILL buffer. Isn't it interesting that the SAME things always come back every 12 months or so? -- Marco Papa 'Doc' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= uucp:...!pollux!papa BIX:papa ARPAnet:pollux!papa@oberon.usc.edu "There's Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Diga!" -- Leo Schwab [quoting Rick Unland] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
armhold@topaz.rutgers.edu (George Armhold) (12/23/88)
Well, I'm definately no expert, but... The 2000 is more than just "alot of air". What makes the 2000 "better" than the 1000 is the fact that hardware manufacturers are making their products to conform with Zorro II, which more or less cuts off the 1000 users. I hope to see some type of converter soon for 1000 owners, just to switch to Zorro II (Is it possible??) Well I won't be in any position to buy a 2000 for long time, so what I'm doing now is trying to buy only peripherals that will function with my 1000 AND the 2000. This way nothing will become obsolete. -GEA
anakin@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Anakin Research) (12/23/88)
Brad Fowles is indeed reading this. My workload doesn't allow for me to have time to do another project. The 32 bit wide memory board is taking all my time at the moment. Surely there are many who could tackle this project. I'd be willing to help with the plans for getting it out there, and I'm sure the people at Transactor would make the project well known, atleast enough to get rid of ...oh 100 of them. Brad Fowles
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (12/24/88)
in article <6084@louie.udel.EDU>, ewilts%Janus.MRC.AdhocNet.CA%UNCAEDU.BITNET@CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL.EDU (Ed Wilts - CandianOxy) says: > Dave Haynie writes: >>And you could probably sell this "1200" machine for maybe $100 or even >>$200 less than an A2000, retail. All you're cutting out, it would >>seem, is the cost of a few edge connectors and a little case area. > You're making the assumption that the "few edge connectors and a little case > area" are inexpensive. Considering I have to cost these things out when I design a machine like the A2000, or this "1200" machine, I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. > The difference between a 500 and a 2000 is just these same "few edge > connectors and a little case area" and a different power supply. The proposed "1200" drops 7 of the 14 edge connectors, and maybe 10% of the PCB space (some will have to be wasted probably, since the physical size of the box is going to be dictated by the space necessary for connectors on the periphery of the board, plus the Amiga slots). The A500 cost reductions are much greater. The power supply is 35 Watts vs. 200 Watts, there are NO edge connectors, the keyboard's built-in, and a cheaper design. Since there are no slots, the PCB board can be physically MUCH smaller (close to 1/2 the size), the case can be much cheaper, and it's also much less expensive to manufacture the whole thing. The A500's also a smaller profit margin product. > Now perhaps you can understand why some users have a hard time trying to > justify "upgrading" from a 1000 to a 2000. Hey, the choice is yours. If the A1000 is all you need, don't buy an A2000. My A2000 here has one free slot; I couldn't possibly add all this stuff to an A1000 without something like a 2000-n-1 box. That would end up costing me more that the 2000 system anyway. > .../Ed (still a 1000 owner) -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy Amiga -- It's not just a job, it's an obsession
pds@quintus.uucp (Peter Schachte) (12/24/88)
In article <Dec.22.22.18.54.1988.22688@topaz.rutgers.edu> armhold@topaz.rutgers.edu (George Armhold) writes: >...what I'm doing now is trying >to buy only peripherals that will function with my 1000 AND the 2000. >This way nothing will become obsolete. What about memory boards? We're all hoping that the A3000 (or whatever) has a 32 bit bus, in which case your 2000 (16 bit) memory boards will still be usable, but you'll really want 32 bit boards. -Peter Schachte pds@quintus.uucp ..!sun!quintus!pds
rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rick Francis Golembiewski) (12/24/88)
In article <14247@oberon.USC.EDU> papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: >|The difference in retail cost locally (Calgary, Alberta) is about $1600 (A500 >|w/1Mb = $1000, A2000 = $2600). Now perhaps you can understand why some users >|have a hard time trying to justify "upgrading" from a 1000 to a 2000. >|$1600 for a heavy duty power supply, a few edge connectors, a hunk of plastic >|case, and a lot of air is rather steep >Yea, and the processor, custom chips, and 1 Meg RAM are FREE, right? :-) >And by the way, you DON'T HAVE to buy the A2000 or upgrade, if you don't >want to. Just keep your A1000, and stop bitching and whining. Hold it a sec, the A1000 has the SAME processor, & custom chips, so you are telling me that 512K of memory+ edge connectors is a $1600 difference? I could MAYBE see justifying $600 for all the extras (and that is streatching it a bit). I also realize R & D is a significant % of product cost, but seriously I should think that the research for the 1000 was a lot more then that for the 2000 because the 2000 is so similar to the 1000. I would LOVE an inexpensive way to add 1 or 2 Zorro II slots (and I could live with no passthrough, and no video/cpu slots). As mentioned the hardware is not all that complex (ie edge connectors, possibly some logic) and the major costs would be power supply and case, so if there are any hardware people out there who think that they could put togeather a working schematic, I for one would be willing to pay for a PC board (I can get the power supply and support components myself), and I would think that there would be enough 1000 owners interested for a small scale production, similar to the LUCAS project. Is there anyone out there with the ability & desire to make an attempt? +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Disclaimer: Me? Post That, impossible I never post anything... | | TypetoYouLater(Everyone); --> "functional Good bye".... | | Rick Golembiewski [ Pronunciation is half the Battle, spelling the other] | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (01/07/89)
Anyone at Commodore looked at putting an Amiga inside a C128D box?
That is the one that looks like the old A1000 box but is slightly lower
in profile.
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/08/89)
In <84283@sun.uucp>, cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: > Anyone at Commodore looked at putting an Amiga inside a C128D box? > That is the one that looks like the old A1000 box but is slightly lower > in profile. I don't know about people at Commodore, but a fellow who livs in Bahrain is currently trying to put an A500 into an SX-64 box (for those that are unfamiliar with it, an SX-64 is a portable 64, with 5" colour screen and space for a couple of 5 1/4" floppy drives). He says it is coming along fine. He has found a nice little 5" JVC monitor that can display 80 column text readably in composite mode, can be hacked to do analog RGB, and is now searching for the ideal HD solution. In addition, a fellow in LA is looking at the possibility of putting the same setup into the case of an Osborne 1. Maybe Adam Osborne gave up too soon. :-) -larry -- Frisbeetarianism: The belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca or uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+