mlandis@nmsu.edu (11/10/88)
After posting yesterday about my experiences with the BADGE Killer Demo Contest and Randy Spencer, I received an almost immediate private reply from Tom Rokicki concerning my message. I want to thank Tom very much for that reply. His response and another night's sleep has lowered my anger level considerably. Now that I got things off my chest, I feel it is only right to offer some possible suggestions instead of flames. I was going to email this only to Tom, but my mail bounced (our outside connections here at NMSU are limited) and I thought maybe the suggestions could benefit others. The BADGE contest carries quite a bit of prestige in the Amiga community, and rightly so. The animations that were entered last year thrilled us throughout the year, and I'm sure the entries this year are all excellent (I haven't seen any other entries yet :-(. The contest was advertised in AmigaWorld, which gets the largest distribution of any Amiga specific magazine. My suggestion is that for such a visible event, more than one person needs to be in charge of administering it. I'm sure Randy had many other things and animators on his mind than just me, and that just emphasizes the need for other people to be deeply involved in the preparations. Tom mentioned in his reply that BADGE was just a small group of hackers and developers without dues or a newsletter. I know BADGE has helped produce many terrific things for the Amiga, but possibly running an international contest without help should not be one of them. The exposure this contest receives is vast and worthwhile for the Amiga and I would hate to see it disappear. Tom mentioned that BADGE might not sponsor the contest next year, but instead of giving up the idea all together maybe BADGE could seek a lttle assistance. Are there any User's Groups in the area that could help, possibly even User's Groups in the LA area? I would have felt much better knowing my entry was being duplicated, archived, and tested by 2 or more other Amiga groups. The other group(s) might be ones that have a fairly large distribution for their newsletter, and can aid in promoting and publicizing the names of the companies donating prizes to the contest. But whatever the solution, the contest must be taken seriously next year and done by an organization(s) that will dedicate an appropriate amount of time to making sure it runs smoothly (or not do it at all). I hope my suggestions have been stated clearly and will be considered in any future discussions concerning the contest. My flames of the previous message were not intended to result in any type of compensation from BADGE, nor did I want to imply that my animation was not eventually judged fairly by the 8 people who participated in the post- judging. My main concern is that the mistake is not repeated. Marvin Landis mcsmal@nmsuvm1.bitnet mlandis@nmsu.edu
keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) (11/12/88)
After reading Marv's frustrating posting about the comedy of errors his killer demo entry was subjected to, I figure now is as good a time as any to make my input with regards to the contest. After reading the rules as posted to usenet, my first impression is that they were much too picky about issues that have very little to do with the aesthetic impact of the demo. According to the BADGE official rules, it is clear that only the purest of hackers is qualified to produce a killer demo entry that adheres to all of the rules. Issues like cleaning up the use of all resources, returning of all memory, making a demo "draggable to any drawer on a hard disk" etc, are issues which are superfluous and unknown to any non-hacker artists who desired to enter the contest with works perhaps based on their artistic skill instead of programming prowess. Especially without time for a proper "beta-test" and considering the Amiga libraries themselves have been known to violate some of these rules. It is clear that only a combination hacker/artist can be a winner in a contest with such restrictive rules. I had an occasion to talk to a few non-hacker artists who ended up spending more time on trying to figure out what the rules meant and how to comply with them than they did actually producing the "glitz" for their demo. So I'd like to see the contest a lot less restrictive. If there's a potential killer demo out there that takes over the system, requires 4 disks, and leaves with the workbench in a mess when it's done, I'd like to see it, I'll bet its a doozy. I realize it is nice for the people who are "packaging" the resultant demos for redistribution to be able to provide clean, easy to run and install demos, and further to support good programming practices and standards, should demo creators be spending more time on those issues than the aesthetic characteristics? If you're evaluating a commercial package that's one thing, but we're talking about *demos* here. At least such a contest could more actively encourage those who have not the time or experience or perhaps even the interest to have leared all of the nuances of the Amiga operating system to share some of their talents with us and not just those who can recite the RKM chapter and verse. Perhaps including a still-art category is a good idea as well. At the same time, I don't want this to be taken as a flame on Randy or Tom or any of the other BADGE contest personnel. I expect organizing a contest is a heck of a lot of work and probably done for little or no rewards. Just thought I'd make a couple of suggestions for next time. I know we are talking about the Bay Area *Developers* GroupE (or whatever the acronym stands for), but I'd like to see a contest that's a little more for everybody. You really don't have to be a *developer* to create a killer demo. Keith Doyle gryphon!keithd
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (11/13/88)
In article <8653@gryphon.COM>, keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) writes: > After reading the rules as posted to usenet, my first impression is that > they were much too picky about issues that have very little to do with > the aesthetic impact of the demo. But they have a LOT of impact on how useful the demo is to Amiga dealers and owners. They basically amount to: "The program must run to completion and either exit cleanly or provide an obvious method for exiting cleanly". This is so fundamental to Amiga programming that I find it hard to believe people wouldn't bother with it, yet when I got my copy of the BKDC0 disks about a year ago I was horrified to discover how much of the software didn't do this. > According to the BADGE official rules, it is clear that only the purest > of hackers is qualified to produce a killer demo entry that adheres to > all of the rules. No, any competant developer should be able to do it. If you are not a competant developer, find a developer to help you and share the glory or use a driver program and do all your work in Videoscape or Sculpt or something. Certainly the people responsible for the Sculpt and Videoscape driver programs should have been competant to make them exit cleanly on demand. > So I'd like to see the contest a lot less restrictive. If there's > a potential killer demo out there that takes over the system, requires > 4 disks, and leaves with the workbench in a mess when it's done, I'd > like to see it, I'll bet its a doozy. But it shouldn't be shipped to hundreds of dealers and Amiga fanatics who are going to spend more time apologising for them then showing them. > I realize it is nice for the people who are "packaging" the resultant > demos for redistribution to be able to provide clean, easy to run and install > demos... It's more than "nice", it's necessary. The original purpose of the BKDC is to produce these nice demo disks. If the demos don't let you get back to the workbench or leave it in weird modes (such as interlace) they certainly won't help sell Amigas. I'm embarrassed to show some of them... sigh... I'm a little touchy about this point, since several of the top entries broke the rules. I know Workbench Lander wouldn't have beaten Marketroids (one of the best of the "well behaved" demos), for instance, but it might have placed higher if the Badge people had been as strict as they talked. PS: For a real kick, try running Viacom or DropShadow and Wavebench. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: My typos are my own damn business.
ejkst@cisunx.UUCP (Eric J. Kennedy) (11/13/88)
In article <8653@gryphon.COM> keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) writes: >[Some good points about the stiff rules for the Killer Badge Demo >Contest deleted.] >So I'd like to see the contest a lot less restrictive. If there's >a potential killer demo out there that takes over the system, requires >4 disks, and leaves with the workbench in a mess when it's done, I'd >like to see it, I'll bet its a doozy. >If you're evaluating a commercial package that's one thing, >but we're talking about *demos* here. ^^^^^ That's right, demos. Things that are meant to show off what the Amiga can do. The Badge contest is a high visibility contest. The entries tend to end up everywhere, in the hands of people who don't know much about the Amiga. Poorly behaved programs tend to crash in the hands of people like these. These people are guru magnets. Classic example. I was in a Games 'n Gadgets one evening. A copy of Kanankas (sp?) was running. If you hit the escape key like the directions said, the machine crashed instantly. I think I rebooted that machine and restarted the demo about 5 times in the time I was in that store. What kind of advertisement is that? I like the rules just as they are. -- --- Eric Kennedy ejkst@cisunx.UUCP
rap@ardent.UUCP (Rob Peck) (11/15/88)
In article <8653@gryphon.COM>, keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) writes: > > I know we are talking about the Bay Area *Developers* GroupE (or whatever > the acronym stands for), but I'd like to see a contest that's a little > more for everybody. You really don't have to be a *developer* to create a > killer demo. I agree with most of Keith's posting in that the contest should be encouraging wide participation, but something that guru's either on exit or on running several times in a row because it did not free up some resources would do the Amiga not much good in the long run. After all, the dealers and users who are going to be running the demos may not know much about the machine in the first place and would not be impressed if the guru attacked. What I WOULD like to see in future demos though is a concentration on Amiga specifics. Yes, we have nice animation software available now, and IFF standards, and color fonts. But when things are put together, and the end result is shown, how easy is it for someone else with a different machine to duplicate that effort? There are things that at least NOW, only can be done on the Amiga and a demo or set of demos that show those things should get attention and wide distribution. After all, if all we show are things that ANY computer can do, why should someone want to buy the Amiga, given a larger software base for the others, wider dealer networks, less expensive peripherals and a multiplicity of magazines by comparison. BADGE now DOES separate the categories into Custom demos and tool-based demos and that satisfies part of my desires here. But even the custom demos did not necessarily concentrate on Amiga specifics. I would just like to see more of that in the future. Like using 16 color sprites, using dual-playfield mode, demonstrating disk activity, sprites, graphics and sound simultaneously --- after all, there ARE 20-some-odd DMA channels available, all can work at the same time while hardly slowing down the 68000, AND the multi-tasking aspect can be emphasized right along with the other stuff. Show a 16-color low res screen, bring up sound in all 4 channels, bounce 4 16-color sprites around the screen, reusing them several times onscreen thanks to the COPPER instructions, use the blitter do shuffle windows around like a deck of cards and then load a few picture files from the disk. To paraphrase Mr. Bush "watch my DISK, without further taxing of the 68000 ... everything is still running full tilt, even though I am loading and saving to disk". Or bring up a dual playfield display and do interesting things with it... things that make it obvious that it IS dual playfield. Seems what I saw "someone" do recently with what one might call scrollable-superbitmap-screens would be quite effective. I will enter the contest again next year, and will most likley follow my own personal guidelines. The slogan "only Amiga" means a lot to me and the BADGE contest is one of those places where this sort of thing should make a difference. If our efforts can be easily ripped off (witness the Juggler port to certain competitive machines, where WE know the difference in the quality of the display, but unless they are side by side, the innocent possible-purchaser may not perceive any difference), we contestants not done Amiga much good. Nuff said. Personal opinion, take it as you will. Rob Peck
jms@antares.UUCP (joe smith) (11/15/88)
In article <13647@cisunx.UUCP> ejkst@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu (Eric J. Kennedy) writes: <That's right, demos. Things that are meant to show off what the Amiga <can do. The Badge contest is a high visibility contest. The entries <tend to end up everywhere, in the hands of people who don't know much <about the Amiga. Poorly behaved programs tend to crash in the hands of <people like these. These people are guru magnets. < <Classic example. I was in a Games 'n Gadgets one evening. A copy of <Kanankas (sp?) was running. If you hit the escape key like the <directions said, the machine crashed instantly. I think I rebooted that <machine and restarted the demo about 5 times in the time I was in that <store. What kind of advertisement is that? Speaking of BADGE Killer Demo Contest #0 winners, what is the proper way to abort ShowAnim when it is started from the Workbench via Xicon? Whenever I start the anim from the CLI, it stops when Control-C is typed, just as advertized. But when started from the icon on the Fred Fish disk, it does not respond to Control-C. Left-Amiga-N and Left-Amiga-M will call up Workbench, but only for 1/30 second. Then the anim forces its way back to the front, and I can't get out. When showing these demos, it is very embarassing to have to say "Whoops, there will be a 90 second delay while I reboot the machine". Is there a newer version of Xicon around? -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | TYMNET:JMS@F29 CA:"POPJ P," UUCP:{ames|pyramid}oliveb!tymix!antares!jms | | INTERNET: (Office-1.ARPA is no more) PHONE:Joe Smith @ (408)922-6220 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (11/15/88)
In article <8653@gryphon.COM> keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) writes: >After reading the rules as posted to usenet, my first impression is that >they were much too picky about issues that have very little to do with >the aesthetic impact of the demo. > Asthetic impact can be achieved along with complying with basic Amiga programming guidelines. >According to the BADGE official rules, it is clear that only the purest >of hackers is qualified to produce a killer demo entry that adheres to >all of the rules. Issues like cleaning up the use of all resources, >returning of all memory, making a demo "draggable to any drawer on a >hard disk" etc, are issues which are superfluous and unknown >to any non-hacker artists who desired to enter the contest with >works perhaps based on their artistic skill instead of programming prowess. Are you saying that The Director breaks some rules? :-) Artists who aren't interested in writing a C program don't have to. They can use VideoScape, Sculpt, The Director, Sonix, whathaveyou to create and play their demo. Besides, this year's winner was, as last year, a Director script, so I don't see what *you're* complaining about :-) :-). >I had an occasion to talk to a few >non-hacker artists who ended up spending more time on trying to figure out >what the rules meant and how to comply with them than they did actually >producing the "glitz" for their demo. > We tried to codify all those things that we found Good and Correct about Amiga programming. Basically the rules are: Don't Guru, free up all your resources, and leave the machine in a useable state. The other issues (must fit on one disk, drawer-draggable, etc.) were largely issues of convenience to us and to dealers who would have to be dealing with these programs. >If there's >a potential killer demo out there that takes over the system, requires >4 disks, and leaves with the workbench in a mess when it's done, I'd >like to see it, I'll bet its a doozy. > Sorry, but I wouldn't. Last year, the F-18 demo violated a bunch of rules: it took over the machine, required a re-boot to exit, and wrote to the disk. We also found out later that it had a death clock in it. As a result, it was downgraded heavily for violating basic common-sense technical standards. Needless to say, we were very surprised when EA complained very loudly about it. >Perhaps including a still-art category is a good idea as well. > I don't think so, for the same reason I was voted down when I suggested a videotape category as well. Other organizations hold art and video contests (like SIGGRAPH). Our interest was to entice people to create programs to show off the Amiga. >You really don't have to be a *developer* to create a >killer demo. > That's correct. A great many non-developers entered this year. It's not like one person sat down in a vacuum and said, "These are the rules." A number of us got together on several occasions to discuss what the rules should be. We felt that the rules for this year were an improvement over last year's. We even toyed with the idea of providing skelatal code to allow entrants to comply with some of the more esoteric rules (like WorkBench ToolTypes and stack size verification). We thought hard about who wanted to enter, and where these demos would ultimately end up. These demos are, hopefully, going to be used to show off machines. Therefore, they should portray the machine in its best light. That means that they don't Guru, don't take over the machine, free up all their resources, and have a reasonably easy means of exiting. Remember that J. Random User is watching you, and will not be at all impressed if you have to type control-shift-alt-hyper-super-meta-cokebottle to exit the program, and it Gurus if you type it wrong. Natually, we can't be responsible for tool-based demos whose tools on which they're based screw up. The Sculpt 'movie' demos from last year were unfortunate. We're perfectly willing and happy to listen to suggestions. We *plan* (ha!) to get an early start for the next contest. Let us know your opinions. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
gil@dasys1.UUCP (Gil Winokur) (11/16/88)
As a neophyte, I could use some help with this problem: I'm trying to get the Flood() system call to work for the procedure on page 13 in Rob Peck's - "Programmers Guide to the Amiga" but there seems to be a problem. When the call is reached, it crashes the machine instead of filling the diamond shape. UsuallyI see a horizontal line at the middle that stretches across the window and then Everything stops (mouse,mclk,VD0: trashed). What am I doing wrong? Help! - Gil -- Gil Winokur Big Electric Cat Public UNIX ..!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!gil
childs@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (David W. Childs) (11/16/88)
In article <7659@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: >In article <8653@gryphon.COM> keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) writes: >>If there's >>a potential killer demo out there that takes over the system, requires >>4 disks, and leaves with the workbench in a mess when it's done, I'd >>like to see it, I'll bet its a doozy. >> > Sorry, but I wouldn't.... > We thought hard about who wanted to enter, and where these demos >would ultimately end up. These demos are, hopefully, going to be used to >show off machines. Therefore, they should portray the machine in its best >light. That means that they don't Guru, don't take over the machine, free >up all their resources, and have a reasonably easy means of exiting. >Remember that J. Random User is watching you, and will not be at all >impressed if you have to type control-shift-alt-hyper-super-meta-cokebottle >to exit the program, and it Gurus if you type it wrong. > > We're perfectly willing and happy to listen to suggestions. We >*plan* (ha!) to get an early start for the next contest. Let us know your >opinions. Oh, that really settles it for me. The demo I was working on breaks several of the rules. It's on more than one disk, it takes over the machine, it doesn't free up resources. I was already 3/4 done and only had one part left. I guess my Atari ST, MAC II, Sun 4, and soon to be NeXT full immulation that I was going to send in as a demo is just wasted bits. And I was hoping for a chance to win a prize. Oh well, I needed more disk space anyway. Come on people, a super demo that takes over the machine might show something the Amiga can do that no other computer (given large price range) can do. Make the dealers have two machines, one for SUPER DEMO, and one for normal amiga demo mode. David
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (11/17/88)
In article <7705@dasys1.UUCP> gil@dasys1.UUCP (Gil Winokur) writes: > I'm trying to get the Flood() system call to work for the procedure > on page 13 in Rob Peck's - "Programmers Guide to the Amiga" but there > seems to be a problem. Nothing too special about Flood(), be sure and allocate a TmpRas for the rastport you will be using it in, and make sure that if you use mode "0" that the AOLPen is set to something reasonable. For filling a diamond you probably want to use mode "1". --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
steveb@cbmvax.UUCP (Steve Beats) (11/18/88)
In article <7705@dasys1.UUCP> gil@dasys1.UUCP (Gil Winokur) writes: >As a neophyte, I could use some help with this problem: I'm trying to get the >Flood() system call to work for the procedure on page 13 in Rob Peck's - >"Programmers Guide to the Amiga" but there seems to be a problem. When the call >is reached, it crashes the machine instead of filling the diamond shape. UsuallyI see a horizontal line at the middle that stretches across the window and then >Everything stops (mouse,mclk,VD0: trashed). What am I doing wrong? Help! > - Gil I don't have Rob Peck's book handy, so I can't look at the example. However, I suspect that the RastPort you are performing the Flood() operation in doesn't have a TmpRas allocated. Is that the case ? Steve
nor1675@dsacg2.UUCP (Michael Figg) (11/18/88)
(garbage) In article <8603@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu>, childs@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (David W. Childs) writes: > In article <7659@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes: > >In article <8653@gryphon.COM> keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) writes: > >>If there's > >>a potential killer demo out there that takes over the system, requires > >>4 disks, and leaves with the workbench in a mess when it's done, I'd > >>like to see it, I'll bet its a doozy. > >> > > Sorry, but I wouldn't.... > > We thought hard about who wanted to enter, and where these demos > >would ultimately end up. These demos are, hopefully, going to be used to > >show off machines. Therefore, they should portray the machine in its best > >light. That means that they don't Guru, don't take over the machine, free > > Come on people, a super demo that takes over the machine might show something > the Amiga can do that no other computer (given large price range) can do. > Make the dealers have two machines, one for SUPER DEMO, and one for normal > amiga demo mode. > > David I've got to agree with Keith and David. Why limit the demo to a 'stock' Amiga when potentially better demos could be produced. If the goal of the contest is to advertise the machine and how a user can "Master the Possibilities" then why limit the resources used. It probably should be stated what resources were needed though. I see no problem with requiring the demo to run cleanly although a user should be able to take over the machine. When I bought my Amiga I was never told I *HAD* to use it in a multi-tasking environment. I'm not an expert with hardware but I would assume a single task could run faster by itself and this could be very important to some people, particularly in a graphics/animation type environment. Of course I still do some of my best graphics with crayons and find I can watch Sesame street at the same time :-). (I'm not sure what that was suppose to mean either) Any suggestions on unneeded filler down here? Any suggestions on unneeded filler down here? Any suggestions on unneeded filler down here? Any suggestions on unneeded filler down here? Any suggestions on unneeded filler down here? -- "Better graphics with crayons" Michael Figg DLA Systems Automation Center Columbus, Oh. (614)-238-9036
baer@percival.UUCP (Ken Baer) (11/19/88)
In article <258@antares.UUCP> jms@antares.UUCP (joe smith) writes: >Speaking of BADGE Killer Demo Contest #0 winners, what is the proper way to >abort ShowAnim when it is started from the Workbench via Xicon? Whenever I >start the anim from the CLI, it stops when Control-C is typed, just as >advertized. But when started from the icon on the Fred Fish disk, it does >not respond to Control-C. Left-Amiga-N and Left-Amiga-M will call up >Workbench, but only for 1/30 second. Then the anim forces its way back to >the front, and I can't get out. This is a problem with ShowANIM, not Xicon. Gary Bonham said that the icon for ShowANIM was there to make it easier to copy the program, and it wouldn't run from workbench. It must be intercepting the Ctrl-C from CLI, so it wouldn't recognize it from Workbench. Our public domain Display program will work from workbench. You can click on its icon and choose your animation via the file requester, or you can make an icon for your animation and use Display as the Default Tool. Display is in the People Link library, and on many BBS's and usergroup libraries. I haven't had time to upload it to Usenet, or send it to Fred Fish yet. Anybody who has Hash Animation software will have Display. Hope this helps. BTW, you CAN bypass the file requester in Display by using it as a Default Tool, or calling it from CLI with a filename (e.g. Display myanim.anim). -- -Ken Baer. // Hash Enterprises: When the Going gets Wierd, the Wierd go Professional \X/ USENET - baer@percival.UUCP, PLINK - KEN BAER, BIX - kbaer, "while (AINTGOTNOSATISFACTION) { do stuff }" - RJ Mical
baer@percival.UUCP (Ken Baer) (11/19/88)
In article <1424@percival.UUCP> baer@percival.UUCP (Ken Baer) writes: >Anybody who has Hash Animation software will have Display. Forgot to mention, make sure you get Display V3.2 or greater. The earlier versions didn't play ANIM files. The current version is V3.24. -- -Ken Baer. // Hash Enterprises: When the Going gets Wierd, the Wierd go Professional \X/ USENET - baer@percival.UUCP, PLINK - KEN BAER, BIX - kbaer, "while (AINTGOTNOSATISFACTION) { do stuff }" - RJ Mical
mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Mike Smithwick) (11/20/88)
[My sister's best friends cousin-in-law saw a line eater once] I'd like to add one further note to this BAADG discussion if I may. And this is, that this year's contest really wasn't all that exciting. Let's face it, for all of the hype, announcements, and articles in Major Publications, the majority of the entries were late and gave new meaning to the word "mediocre". They weren't all that good folks. Oh, yeah, there was one entry that we all requested, nay, demanded to see again, and I'm sure that was the winner. (Even though it's joke is SOOO inside to the Amiga community it just won't work as an advertising demo). Nor were there that many entries to begin with, only a couple dozen or so. So the question is, where the heck were you guys? Huh? Where was all that talent that this Net embodies? Most of the entries were tool-based, many of them showed little cleverosity, and even less overall skill, yet some of those guys are going to be walking away with prizes. If there ever is going to be another contest, and I hope that there will be, start work NOW, don't wait until 3 weeks before the deadline, and ship a half finished program. And don't think that you'll be crowded out by all of the hot-shot developers there. I say this because only a 3 or 4 entries came from BAADG first off, and many of us are just too busy to spend 3 months on the >>>Ultimate Demo<<<. Just some randumb thoughts. . . -- *** mike (starship janitor) smithwick *** "Some people say I'm arrogant. But I know better then them" - Mike Dukakis at the Al Smith Banquet [disclaimer : nope, I don't work for NASA, I take full blame for my ideas]
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) (11/20/88)
In article <2983@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >But they have a LOT of impact on how useful the demo is to Amiga dealers and >owners. They basically amount to: > > "The program must run to completion and either exit cleanly or >provide an obvious method for exiting cleanly". > >This is so fundamental to Amiga programming that I find it hard to believe >people wouldn't bother with it, yet when I got my copy of the BKDC0 disks >about a year ago I was horrified to discover how much of the software didn't >do this. 1. I'm mainly talking about people who don't know *how* to do it, not those who wouldn't bother with it. 2. A lot of commercial games violate these rules, not always for copy protection, but many times because they want to use the hardware in such a way that AmigaDOS won't allow. I see no reason to prohibit this. For example, one of Jim Sach's 20,000 leagues demos boots up *instantly* from a boot disk which isn't even DOS format. Good thing he didn't enter something like that in the contest, eh? >> According to the BADGE official rules, it is clear that only the purest >> of hackers is qualified to produce a killer demo entry that adheres to >> all of the rules. > >No, any competant developer should be able to do it. If you are not a competant >developer, find a developer to help you and share the glory or use a driver >program and do all your work in Videoscape or Sculpt or something. In other words, instead of the "purest of hackers" we're saying "you must have access to a compentant developer who has time and interest to help you". Sounds pretty close to me. >Certainly the people responsible for the Sculpt and Videoscape driver programs >should have been competant to make them exit cleanly on demand. So do they? If they don't, then who in the contest is penalized when demos produced with them aren't obeying the rules? Who is penalized when the reason they don't meet one of the rules is due to an OS or compiler bug over which they have little control? >> So I'd like to see the contest a lot less restrictive. If there's >> a potential killer demo out there that takes over the system, requires >> 4 disks, and leaves with the workbench in a mess when it's done, I'd >> like to see it, I'll bet its a doozy. >But it shouldn't be shipped to hundreds of dealers and Amiga fanatics who >are going to spend more time apologising for them then showing them. If the instructions say "boot with disk A in drive DF0: and disk B in drive DF1:" and "reboot after running" that shouldn't be too hard for them to figure out. >It's more than "nice", it's necessary. The original purpose of the BKDC is >to produce these nice demo disks. If the demos don't let you get back to >the workbench or leave it in weird modes (such as interlace) they certainly >won't help sell Amigas. I'm embarrassed to show some of them... sigh... Perhaps that is because they were produced by non-programmers that would like to produce demos, but don't have your expertise, or programmers that didn't have time to beta test for "only a demo" that was hacked out at the last minute, or haven't had their Amiga as long as you, or .... BTW, again, if ShowANIM leaves the workbench in interlace when done, should a contestant who used VideoScape 3D be penalized because he didn't know that Hash Enterprises had a Display program that perhaps runs cleaner? And did it occur to you that if you run one program that goes into interlace, and while it's running you run another program that goes into interlace, if the first one exits and turns off interlace it may cause problems with the second program who just had it's interlace turned off, and this may be why ShowANIM leaves it on? Perhaps we should penalize Commodore for not releasing the Amiga until 1.4 is done providing an ORed on interlace instead of a system-wide interlace? >I'm a little touchy about this point, since several of the top entries broke >the rules. I know Workbench Lander wouldn't have beaten Marketroids (one of >the best of the "well behaved" demos), for instance, but it might have placed >higher if the Badge people had been as strict as they talked. Sure, it'd be nice if they all followed all the rules. But it takes an expert Amiga programmer and a beta test cycle to insure that with the current rule set. An Amiga owner writing his first program in Basic may not understand that the Assign command will use a little memory and he will have to un-assign any assign's he as done to make the numbers come out right. He may also not be aware that due to an Intuition bug, overlapping blit's will lose memory so he can't do that until some future version of the OS. He may be able to make his program work by accessing files as df1:foo, but not know how to set it up so it will work when the whole shebang is dragged onto your hard disk, hell he doesn't even have a hard disk. Clearly, in your book, this person should get help or look elsewhere for a contest that would consider his work. Ok, so your clubhouse has "no non-programmerz alowd" scrawled on the outside of it, gotcha. Perhaps this should be made a little clearer so they know you have the ball and they can go home without wasting any time and energy thinking they might have a snowballs chance. And then you won't have to worry about any non-programmers who are real whiz-bang with DPaint showing up your assembly language superhack with a slideshow. Gad, we can't have that now can we? Sure, let's perpetuate the myth that the Amiga is only for hackers, and is not user-friendly enough for everyone to use. Perhaps it's not a myth after all. The average Amiga owner doesn't even know how to edit his startup-sequence, perhaps they should have bought an ST or a Mac? Categories such as: 1. Best Graphics 2. Funniest 3. Best Programming 4. Best Sound 5. etc... Can leave room for everyone. And a demo that makes a good showing in mulitple categories *including* #3, *should* do better than one which only makes it in only one category. Right now it seems that category #3 is taking precidence. If it doesn't make a good showing in that category, it's implied it can be disqualified from the contest entirely, or at least isn't likely to get very far. Question. How many of the current entries in the contest do actually follow all the rules, and how many don't? Perhaps the answer to that might tell you 1. how difficult it really is to produce a demo that follows all the rules, or 2. how many "competent developers" vs others are actually entering the contest. Again, I'm not trying to flame the BADGE group, I'm sure putting on a contest is a difficult task and takes up a lot of time. I appreciate what they are trying to do, and just want to offer some suggestions for something a little less programmer-myopic or programmer-elitist in the future. I hope all this controversy doesn't cause you guys to decide to hang it up completely, I think the idea of a demo contest is a good one. Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd
ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) (11/21/88)
In article <18426@ames.arc.nasa.gov> mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov.UUCP (Mike Smithwick) writes: >Oh, yeah, there was one entry that we all requested, nay, demanded to >see again, and I'm sure that was the winner. [ ... ] You're going to be surprised, Mike. NotBoingAgain did not take first prize. Randy! When are you going to post the winners? >And don't think that you'll be crowded out by all of the hot-shot developers >there. I say this because only a 3 or 4 entries came from BAADG first off, >and many of us are just too busy to spend 3 months on the >>>Ultimate Demo<<<. > In a post-mortem analysis of the contest, Randy made the observation that many of the hot-shot Amiga programmers that would have created really great demos were just too damn employed to be able to do anything. We'll try to do better next time. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun." -- The Doctor
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (11/22/88)
In article <2312@cadovax.UUCP>, keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: > In article <2983@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: > > "The program must run to completion and either exit cleanly or > >provide an obvious method for exiting cleanly". > 1. I'm mainly talking about people who don't know *how* to do it, not those > who wouldn't bother with it. Well, they're going to need to learn how to do it or write tool based applications. > 2. A lot of commercial games violate these rules, not always for copy > protection, but many times because they want to use the hardware in such a > way that AmigaDOS won't allow. I see no reason to prohibit this. I don't believe this. AmigaOS goes to great lengths to provide ways for people to selectively turn parts of it off and on again. For example, TRACERS grabs the mouse port... but it gives it back to you when the game is over or if you pause the game. It's not that hard to do things the right way. > For example, one of Jim Sach's 20,000 leagues demos boots up *instantly* from a > boot disk which isn't even DOS format. Good thing he didn't enter something > like that in the contest, eh? I understand Electronic Arts did attempt to enter something like that in the contest and were rebuffed. > In other words, instead of the "purest of hackers" we're saying "you must > have access to a compentant developer who has time and interest to help > you". Sounds pretty close to me. Or you can make it a tools based demo. I don't believe that anyone with the skill to write a killer program will lack the skill to write a clean one. > >Certainly the people responsible for the Sculpt and Videoscape driver > >programs should have been competant to make them exit cleanly on demand. > So do they? Nope. > If they don't, then who in the contest is penalized when > demos produced with them aren't obeying the rules? The Amiga fans and dealers who have to apologise for having to reboot the machine all the time while they're showing the demos to friends and potential customers. > Who is penalized when > the reason they don't meet one of the rules is due to an OS or compiler > bug over which they have little control? I wrote an entry in the contest and as far as I know there are no compiler or operating system bugs that would keep you from meeting the rules. > > >are going to spend more time apologising for them then showing them. > > DF1:" and "reboot after running" that shouldn't be too hard for them to figure > out. Rebooting a multitasking machine is evil and rude. That's the domain of PC-ware, and hides one of the biggest advantages the Amiga has over other personal computers. > BTW, again, if ShowANIM leaves the workbench in interlace when done, should > a contestant who used VideoScape 3D be penalized because he didn't know that > Hash Enterprises had a Display program that perhaps runs cleaner? No, but the people at BADGE who packed the disks for shipping should have. I'm not going to quote the rest of the letter... just mention that Interlace is already handled by the Amiga software on a screen-by-screen basis. If a program opens an interlaced custom screen it'll work correctly with any other combination of programs that open interlaced custom screens. It's not that hard to follow the rules. I was certainly not an expert Amiga programmer a year ago. I don't know if I am one now. I have found that in general all you need to do to follow the rules is stick to Intuition. If you need to take over some resource, TELL THE SYSTEM ABOUT IT, and GIVE IT BACK. That's all. Simple enough? > The average Amiga owner doesn't even know how to edit his startup-sequence, > perhaps they should have bought an ST or a Mac? We're not talking about your average Amiga owner... we're talking about programmers. Any non-tool-based entry in the contest was by definition written by a programmer. Try writing a program on a Mac or an ST some time. I have... and it's WAY harder to write a well-behaved program in those environments. MAC programs have to be basically written as device drivers, and on the ST any program that wants to do ordinary I/O and survive a ^C has to reprogram the keyboard controller or write an interrupt handler for the ^C interrupt. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: My typos are my own damn busines#!rne
dillon@POSTGRES.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (11/22/88)
: In a post-mortem analysis of the contest, Randy made the observation :that many of the hot-shot Amiga programmers that would have created really :great demos were just too damn employed to be able to do anything. So right ... Also, I just couldn't think of anything that would fit on a floppy. Lezeee, 320x400xHAM @ 30 frames/sec for 5 minutes = 14MB (with no compression). Next time I think I'll do something like that even if it means I am disqualified from the actual contest. So when is the 2nd+1 KDC gonna be held? -Matt
keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) (11/22/88)
In article <3009@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >I understand Electronic Arts did attempt to enter something like that in the >contest and were rebuffed. So I guess we don't get to see it now, eh? As far as I'm concerned, as long as I know what it is going to do ahead of time, I don't care what it does. I can always decide not to run it if I don't like how it is going to act. >I wrote an entry in the contest and as far as I know there are no compiler >or operating system bugs that would keep you from meeting the rules. Check out the thread on the 1.3 Run command for a start. >> The average Amiga owner doesn't even know how to edit his startup-sequence, >> perhaps they should have bought an ST or a Mac? > >We're not talking about your average Amiga owner... It doesn't speak to well about the user friendliness of the machine if only experts can create entertaining demos. Keith Doyle {ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd
peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (11/25/88)
In article <8870@gryphon.COM>, keithd@gryphon.COM (Keith Doyle) writes: > In article <3009@sugar.uu.net> peter@sugar.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: > >I understand Electronic Arts did attempt to enter something like that in the > >contest and were rebuffed. > So I guess we don't get to see it now, eh? Sure, you can buy it in the store. It was a preview version of some game that hadn't been published at the time of the contest. > >I wrote an entry in the contest and as far as I know there are no compiler > >or operating system bugs that would keep you from meeting the rules. > Check out the thread on the 1.3 Run command for a start. What thread on the 1.3 RUN command? You mean the discussion in .tech about how to get "Execute()" to behave properly? That's not a 1.3 problem. > >> The average Amiga owner doesn't even know how to edit his startup-sequence, > >> perhaps they should have bought an ST or a Mac? > >We're not talking about your average Amiga owner... > It doesn't speak to well about the user friendliness of the machine if > only experts can create entertaining demos. Only good programmers can create demo software from scratch that's going to run with the big boys. Anyone can make tool based demos. The winner of BKDC0 was a tool-based demo, by a non-programmer, that satisfied the rules. Proof by example that the rules are not too restrictive. -- Peter da Silva `-_-' peter@sugar.uu.net Have you hugged U your wolf today? Disclaimer: My typos are my own damn busines#!rne
lel@wuphys.UUCP (Lyle E. Levine) (12/01/88)
In article <18426@ames.arc.nasa.gov> mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov.UUCP (Mike Smithwick) writes: > >I'd like to add one further note to this BAADG discussion if I may. >And this is, that this year's contest really wasn't all that exciting. >Let's face it, for all of the hype, announcements, and articles in >Major Publications, the majority of the entries were late and gave >new meaning to the word "mediocre". They weren't all that good folks. >So the question is, where the heck were you guys? Huh? Where was all that talent >that this Net embodies? Most of the entries were tool-based, many of them >showed little cleverosity, and even less overall skill, yet some of those >guys are going to be walking away with prizes. If there ever is going to >be another contest, and I hope that there will be, start work NOW, don't >wait until 3 weeks before the deadline, and ship a half finished program. > > I'm VERY SORRY to hear this... I don't know what kept others away, but I know what happened to me. I spent a good 3 months working on what would have been an excellent demo (Those who saw my preliminaries said they beat RGB cold). Unfortunately, the first announcement of the rules killed it. I may have misinterpreted them but it looked like it had to run on a 2 disk drive machine with one of the disks being a workbench disk. I needed 2 disks for the demo. Also, I required > 1 Meg to run it (1.5 needed). Also, it required red/blue glasses to be worn. The demo followed all good programing practices and released everything when done. I can understand why the rules were made so restrictive but it may have had the effect of seriously cutting down on the number and quality of entrees. I know that if the rules would permit it, I would seriously consider finishing off my demo for next year. ========== IBM is a Division of Sirius Cybernetics Corporation "their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws." - "So Long And Thanks For All The Fish" Lyle Levine: Paths -> ihnp4!wuphys!lel Best way: (314)889-6379 uunet!wucs!wuphys!lel
pds@quintus.uucp (Peter Schachte) (12/02/88)
Why not have another category for super-demos? We've got custom and tool-based, how about well-behaved, resource hungry demos. With higher limits, like a few meg of hard disk space, or two floppies, and, say, 3 meg of memory. Still has to clean up after itself. The sort of thing a computer store with a feature-loaded Amiga might want to have around to demo what a high-end Amiga can do. -Peter Schachte pds@quintus.uucp ..!sun!quintus!pds
hrlaser@pnet02.cts.com (Harv Laser) (12/02/88)
Speaking of the BADGE contest... did I fall asleep and miss the list
of winners????
Harv Laser, Sysop, The People/Link AmigaZone. Plink: CBM*HARV
UUCP: {ames!elroy, <backbone>}!gryphon!pnet02!hrlaser
INET: hrlaser@pnet02.cts.com
<---open Push down while turning close tightly--->tadguy@cs.odu.edu (Tad Guy) (12/09/88)
In article <9173@gryphon.COM>, hrlaser@pnet02 (Harv Laser) writes: >Speaking of the BADGE contest... did I fall asleep and miss the list >of winners???? ...or where the demos can be had for anonymous ftp? I'd put them up for ftp here if I had them (hint hint). ...tad
michael@stb.UUCP (Michael) (01/11/89)
In article <2312@cadovax.UUCP> keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) writes: >For example, one of Jim Sach's 20,000 leagues demos boots up *instantly* from a >boot disk which isn't even DOS format. Good thing he didn't enter something >like that in the contest, eh? What? You mean that if I want to play his game that my amiga has to stop being a remote disk mount for my unix machine? You mean that if I want to play his game my startup environment which takes about 10 minutes to set up (vd0: based, lots in there) has to be discarded? You mean that I have to kick off someone who might be using a CLI environment on the serial port? THE AMIGA IS NOT A 64. STOP TREATING IT LIKE ONE. As for all the "Interlaced" problems: Open a screen in interlace mode and play with that. You don't need to modify workbench. Keep the rules in. Some of us not only care, but are upset at software developers who feel that we A) Never will want to run from a hard disk (A non-dos boot disk?) B) ONLY have 1/2 or 1 meg of memory (Facc can hold an entire disk in that second meg) C) Wouldn't possibly want to have something else running when their game busy-waits for a mouse click. : --- : Michael Gersten uunet.uu.net!stb!michael : crash!gryphon!denwa!stb!michael : Coff Coff <=== Stop smoking.