cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (11/18/87)
In article <6594@sunybcs.UUCP> ugevan@joey.UUCP (Evan Kahn) writes: > I was at a local C-A dealer yesterday and spoke to an official rep from >Commodore. Specifically, I wanted to know when KS 1.3 would be available and >found out thatit isn't schedualed for release until late next quarter (March). >At any rate we got to talking and I mentioned to him that I was in support of >bootable firmware as opposed to it being in ROM. He concurred and informed me >that there is speculation that future Amigas may have EEPROMS to hold KS. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The above person is of course speculating and therefore can't be 'wrong' per se, however, lets get something perfectly clear. Updating the Kickstart image can be done *WITHOUT* replacing the ROMs. That is because Commodore has made explicit allowances for this. The technique is *very* straight forward, you set function the vectors that have changed, put a ROMTag in memory to make them permanent, and then Warmboot. From then on you have 1.21 (or 1.3 or 1.4) until you ColdBoot again. So it is functionally equivalent to having Kickstart loadable from disk. The only exception is that really wild programs can stomp on this memory and thus remove the changes for you (whereupon you would have to 'jumpstart' again). From a businees perspective the ROM tower in the A1000 was a total kludge and losing proposition. Do you *really* want to improve the performance of your slap on the side A1000 peripherals ? Then *remove* the Kickstart tower and replace it with Kickstart ROMs. That takes a significant load off the CPU, Power supply, and expansion bus peripherals. Replacing $1.00 EPROMs in the 2000 with $10.00 EEPROMS would be another losing proposition. If the kickstart changes are sufficiently large to warrant new ROM's then I suspect Commodore will make them. If not, there no reason why you couldn't make your own. Sorry if this is sounding like a flame, it's not meant to. Amiga and Commodore have devised what I consider to be an extremely clever and workable way to sell machines with the bulk of the O/S in ROM and yet keep open the door for easy improvements and cost effective updating. Nobody else in the Computer business has managed to do that. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
cute@sphinx.UUCP (11/18/87)
In article <34127@sun.uucp> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >Amiga and Commodore have devised what I consider to be an extremely clever >and workable way to sell machines with the bulk of the O/S in ROM and yet >keep open the door for easy improvements and cost effective updating. > >Nobody else in the Computer business has managed to do that. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I beg to differ. Any trap-based routine in the Macintosh OS may be replaced at any time. This is possible because all trap routines are accessed through a dispatch table in RAM. There are routines provided to get and set the code address of a routine. Because of this, the replacement code is free to call the old code if necessary. The System File contains update code specific to each ROM version. At startup, the boot code determines the ROM version and installs the appropriate patches, replacing buggy routines, adding new functionality to existing routines, and even adding routines that weren't present at all in the target ROM. This is how Apple was able to give the Mac Plus (running under the most recent system) nearly all of the added functionality of the Mac SE ROM with out requiring a ROM swap. The only penalty is that the new code takes up RAM space. BTW, all such alterations are completely transparent to applications that do not specifically check trap addresses. -- ...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!cute (insert pithy quote here)
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (11/18/87)
:>Amiga and Commodore have devised what I consider to be an extremely clever :>and workable way to sell machines with the bulk of the O/S in ROM and yet :>keep open the door for easy improvements and cost effective updating. :> :>Nobody else in the Computer business has managed to do that. : ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ : :I beg to differ. Any trap-based routine in the Macintosh OS may be replaced :at any time. This is possible because all trap routines are accessed through a In terms of modifying or updating OS routines, it can be done just as easily on the Mac as the Amiga. BUT the Mac uses traps for most OS calls while the Amiga uses a more sophisticated library system which has virtually no overhead. A trap takes 38 cycles + 20 for the return. An amiga library call takes 18 cycles (jsr) + 16 (rts). 58 vs 34 best case. There are also tricks one can play with that jsr... -Matt
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) (11/19/87)
In article <2655@sphinx.uchicago.edu> cute@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP (John Cavallino) writes:
.I beg to differ. Any trap-based routine in the Macintosh OS may be replaced
.at any time. This is possible because all trap routines are accessed through a
.dispatch table in RAM. There are routines provided to get and set the code
.address of a routine. Because of this, the replacement code is free to callthe
.old code ifnecessary. The System File contains update code specific toeach ROM
.version. At startup, the boot code determines the ROM version and installs the
.appropriate patches, replacing buggy routines, adding new functionality to
.existing routines,and even adding routines that weren't present at all in the
.target ROM. This is how Apple was able to give the Mac Plus (running under the
.most recent system)nearly all of the added functionality ofthe Mac SE ROM with
.out requiring a ROM swap. The only penalty is that the new code takes up RAM
.space. BTW, all such alterations are completely transparent to applications
.that do not specifically check trap addresses.
Jeez, anyone feel like posting more detailed specs here? (Mac emulators
anyone?)?
It seems to me the only problem with the "well you can boot a kickstart
into RAM even on the 2000/500" approach, is that you lose 256k or so of
your RAM for applications when doing so. To people with 512k systems,
that could be pretty significant. To people who sell RAM boards it's
a feature, not a bug. :-)
Keith Doyle
# {ucbvax,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd Contel Business Systems 213-323-8170dan@ivucsb.UUCP (Dan Howell) (02/02/89)
Does anyone have information or pointers to information on an inexpensive way to put Kickstart in ROM for the 1000? I would like a switchable kind, which would allow me to use a Kickstart disk if I preferred. Something that uses standard 27256's would be nice so that it would be easy to reprogram when Commodore comes out with new releases. -- Dan Howell <...!apple!comdesign!ivucsb!dan> <dan@ivucsb.UUCP>
dale@ssbell.UUCP (Dale Miller) (02/06/89)
I purchased KWIKSTART to have kickstart in ROM. What is KWIKSTART and what does it do? KWIKSTART is an add on board that puts 1.2 KickStart (TM) permanently in ROM. Now when you power up your Amiga it is ready to read the Workbench disk without the delay that is normally associated with the disk based Kickstart system. This allows faster startup time and is ideal for things like Bulletin Board systems, turnkey systems and the office environment as well as for new or beginner users. KWIKSTART makes it easy to turn on the Amiga and go. KWIKSTART adds an additional 256K of memory to the Amiga! When you use the 1.2 ROM mode you cn access the 256K that is normally used by the disk base KickStart. Simply use the ADDMEM program (supplied with the kit) and you can start using 256K more, won't that come in handy for some of your larger programs and data base programs? The KWIKSTART Board can be powered up in the operating system of your choice! By selecting a jumper on the KWIKSTART Board you can power up under 1.2 OR you can power up with the Amiga asking for the normal disk based KickStart. KWIKSTART's operating system is now a toggle action type. You can toggle back and forth between the 1.2 ROM and Disk Based Kickstart. When you do a quick reboot (also known as a warm boot) the Amiga will stay in whatever operating system it was last in. When you do a reboot and hold those keys for more than 3 seconds the circuits on KWIKSTART will sense this change and toggle in the other operating system set. There after a quick reset will remain in that current operating system. Do a long reset and KWIKSTART will switch again. I purchased the Michigan Software KWICKSTART and Michigan Software INSIDER on February 18, 1988. It has a one year warranty. KWICKSTART listed for $169.95 then and the INSIDER listed for $349.95. I am very pleased with the combination. -- Dale Miller UUCP: dale@ssbell Sterling Software FSG/IMD INTERNET: dale%ssbell.uucp@uunet.uu.net 1404 Ft. Crook Rd. South Phone: (402) 291-8300 Bellevue, NE. 68005-2969 FAX: (402) 291-4362
lindwall@sdsu.UUCP (John Lindwall) (02/07/89)
In article <362@ssbell.UUCP>, dale@ssbell.UUCP (Dale Miller) writes: > KWIKSTART is an add on board that puts 1.2 KickStart (TM) permanently in > ROM. Thank you very much for this information. Do you (or anyone else) know if they have one that comes with 1.3 ROMS? I'll snap one up if this beast exists. It's true that 1.3 is the last update that will fully support the A1000 isn't it? If so then it seems like a great idea to get 1.3 in ROM form for my aging semi-orphan. (Just kidding there, I really appreciate the fact that the development of the 500/2000 has not invalidated my 1000 in any way. Thanks CA!) John Lindwall johnl@tw-rnd.SanDiego.NCR.COM
armhold@topaz.rutgers.edu (George Armhold) (02/08/89)
What do you mean 1.3 is the last version of the OS to be supported for the 1000?!? There's not gonna be 1.4 on disk for 1000 owners?? I find that hard to believe... -GEA
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (02/08/89)
In article <Feb.7.22.13.03.1989.13316@topaz.rutgers.edu> armhold@topaz.rutgers.edu (George Armhold) writes: > What do you mean 1.3 is the last version of the OS to be supported for > the 1000?!? There's not gonna be 1.4 on disk for 1000 owners?? I find > that hard to believe... > > -GEA How many times doesn't this information need to be posted on the net? A M I G A D O S 1 . 4 W I L L R U N O N A N A M I G A 1 0 0 0 ^^^^^^^ *WILL* as in "YES", "Si", "Oui"! As in "I know developers that are running the pre-pre-pre-alpha version of 1.4 and do so on an Amiga 1-0-0-0! Yet more wasted bandwidth from... -- Tom Limoncelli -- tlimonce@drunivac.Bitnet -- limonce@pilot.njin.net Drew University -- Madison, NJ -- 201-408-5389 Standard ACM Regional Contest winner! See you at Disclaim the nationals in Louisville, KY on Feb 21-23! er.
dale@ssbell.UUCP (Dale Miller) (02/09/89)
In article <3470@sdsu.UUCP> lindwall@sdsu.UUCP (John Lindwall) writes: >In article <362@ssbell.UUCP>, dale@ssbell.UUCP (Dale Miller) writes: >> KWIKSTART is an add on board that puts 1.2 KickStart (TM) permanently in >> ROM. > >Thank you very much for this information. Do you (or anyone else) know if >they have one that comes with 1.3 ROMS? I'll snap one up if this beast >exists. It's true that 1.3 is the last update that will fully support the >A1000 isn't it? If so then it seems like a great idea to get 1.3 in ROM >form for my aging semi-orphan. (Just kidding there, I really appreciate the >fact that the development of the 500/2000 has not invalidated my 1000 in any >way. Thanks CA!) I have been told that Michigan Software does have the 1.3 ROMS available. The only advantage that 1.3 ROMS have over 1.2 ROMS is the capability to autoboot from a hard drive. I currently do not have a hard drive so I see no need to get the 1.3 ROMS. I pray that 1.4 will still support the A1000 and have features that I want. If my prayers are answered I will get the 1.4 ROMS (if available from Michigan Software). Note the following message that was sent last May. >From: schein@cbmvax.UUCP (Dan Schein CATS) >Date: 23 May 88 13:19:36 GMT >Organization: Commodore Technology, West Chester, PA In article <3071@leo.UUCP> harald@leo.UUCP ( Harald Milne) writes: > > Does anybody know if the CMI kickstart eliminatir ROM's for the A1000 >are in fact the same type of ROM in the A500/A2000. If so, the ROM's >could be replaced using the CBM ROM set as oppossed to CMI. > Im not sure about CMI's KickStart kit, but I do know the 2 products from Michigan Software (A KickStart replace kit, and a dual KickStart kit for the 500/2000) use 4 EPROM's where the 500/2000 use 1 ROM. So in this case (and I would guess the CMI case), NO the CBM ROM could not be used. -- Dale Miller UUCP: dale@ssbell Sterling Software FSG/IMD INTERNET: dale%ssbell.uucp@uunet.uu.net 1404 Ft. Crook Rd. South Phone: (402) 291-8300 Bellevue, NE. 68005-2969 FAX: (402) 291-4362