sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (04/09/89)
In article <SFT.89Apr5102001@ihlpa.ATT.COM> sft@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Scott Thompson) writes: >Yeah, they trashed OutRun, the Amiga version, it could have been >just like the arcade. Pissed me off! I seriously doubt it. Sega has some really nice scaling blitter chips in the arcade machines. It's why they can have all kinds of stuff rushing at you at high speeds. I imagine eventually they will design microcomputer architectures so hardware like this can be plugged into the bus. The Amiga is kind of stuck with it's specialty chips. In some Amigas, you'll soon be able to replace these with a slightly more capable version of same, but it's nothing like what stuffing four scaling blitters would do for it. I'd love to see Sega's library code for their coin-op games. Sean -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet *** Just another Monkey Boy. {backbone site|rutgers|uunet}!ukma!sean *** U of K, Lexington Kentucky, USA ..where Christian movies are banned. *** ``Computer networks should be considerably faster than a slug.'' -Me
billkatt@sol.engin.umich.edu (billkatt) (04/21/89)
In article <39867@vax1.tcd.ie> rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie writes: >In article <11454@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >> In article <SFT.89Apr5102001@ihlpa.ATT.COM> sft@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Scott Thompson) writes: >>>Yeah, they trashed OutRun, the Amiga version, it could have been >>>just like the arcade. Pissed me off! >> >> I seriously doubt it. Sega has some really nice scaling blitter chips in >> the arcade machines. It's why they can have all kinds of stuff rushing at >> you at high speeds. > >Nonsense. The Amiga is easily capable of doing arcade-perfect Outrun. The >Amiga version of Space Harrier is at least as good as the arcade version >and Space Harrier requires the same sort of graphics manipulation as Outrun >except more of it. It's just that the people who wrote Outrun were either >lazy, incompetent or (being charitable) short of time/money. Nobody has come >close to pushing the Amiga to its limits yet. Nonsense. OutRun pushes one or two 16Mhz 68000s and special blitter chips to their max, not to mention doesn't have to run a multitasking operating system. No machine running one 8Mhz 68000, with a simple blitter and a multitasking operating system is going to be able to match the arcade version, not even the Amiga. -Steve Bollinger
rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie (04/21/89)
In article <11454@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: > In article <SFT.89Apr5102001@ihlpa.ATT.COM> sft@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Scott Thompson) writes: >>Yeah, they trashed OutRun, the Amiga version, it could have been >>just like the arcade. Pissed me off! > > I seriously doubt it. Sega has some really nice scaling blitter chips in > the arcade machines. It's why they can have all kinds of stuff rushing at > you at high speeds. Nonsense. The Amiga is easily capable of doing arcade-perfect Outrun. The Amiga version of Space Harrier is at least as good as the arcade version and Space Harrier requires the same sort of graphics manipulation as Outrun except more of it. It's just that the people who wrote Outrun were either lazy, incompetent or (being charitable) short of time/money. Nobody has come close to pushing the Amiga to its limits yet. "To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem" Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie
news@columbia.edu (The Daily News) (04/21/89)
line a little) From: simon@cheshire (Thor Simon) Path: cheshire!simon And yet, as another poster said, Space Harrier is if anything BETTER than the arcade, on this same little Amiga... But the REAL problems with OutRun come from its being ported over from the ST. This means no real blitter support AT ALL, and all the ST's stupid graphics limitations...
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (04/21/89)
In article <39867@vax1.tcd.ie> rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie writes: >In article <11454@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >> In article <SFT.89Apr5102001@ihlpa.ATT.COM> sft@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Scott Thompson) writes: >>>Yeah, they trashed OutRun, the Amiga version, it could have been >>>just like the arcade. Pissed me off! >> I seriously doubt it. Sega has some really nice scaling blitter chips in >> the arcade machines. It's why they can have all kinds of stuff rushing at >> you at high speeds. >Nonsense. The Amiga is easily capable of doing arcade-perfect Outrun. Sigh. I wish people would actually read my stuff before they reply. The Sega coin-ops are like an Amiga cubed. They have far better hardware than the Amiga does. The scaling blitters are what make the blowaway high speed 3D graphics possible. Yes, the Amiga can store bitmaps and yes it can blit them to the screen really fast, but nowhere near as fast as the Sega hardware can. The Amiga doesn't even have the bus bandwidth to keep up with the Sega games, much less the hardware! That's why I said it would be nice to have a computer designed specifically for the possibility of plugging various arcane devices like this into the bus. Sean -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet *** What, me worry? {backbone|rutgers|uunet}!ukma!sean *** ``A computer network should be considerably faster than a slug.'' -Me
news@swan.ulowell.edu (News manager) (04/22/89)
From article <42c01941.a590@mag.engin.umich.edu>, by billkatt@sol.engin.umich.edu (billkatt): > In article <39867@vax1.tcd.ie> rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie writes: >>In article <11454@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >>> In article <SFT.89Apr5102001@ihlpa.ATT.COM> sft@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Scott Thompson) writes: ... >>Nonsense. The Amiga is easily capable of doing arcade-perfect Outrun. The >>Amiga version of Space Harrier is at least as good as the arcade version >>and Space Harrier requires the same sort of graphics manipulation as Outrun >>except more of it. It's just that the people who wrote Outrun were either >>lazy, incompetent or (being charitable) short of time/money. Nobody has come >>close to pushing the Amiga to its limits yet. > Nonsense. OutRun pushes one or two 16Mhz 68000s and special blitter chips > to their max, not to mention doesn't have to run a multitasking operating > system. No machine running one 8Mhz 68000, with a simple blitter and a > multitasking operating system is going to be able to match the arcade version, > not even the Amiga. Nonsense, why run the OS is one is playing an Arcade game. Most games to ditch the OS as soon as they can. I really think it depends on the game as to weather this is acceptable or not. Clearly text adventures can run conncurrently with the OS. But, anyway. Don't forget that the Amiga bus is running at 14Mhz, and there there is more than blitters in that box. Lastly in this group someone did mention that they have seen Space Harrier on the Amy and that he/she thought it was better and faster than the arcade version. Have you seen it on the Amiga? Do you concur? Ross .
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (04/23/89)
In article <42c01941.a590@mag.engin.umich.edu> (billkatt) writes: >Nonsense. OutRun pushes one or two 16Mhz 68000s and special blitter chips >to their max, not to mention doesn't have to run a multitasking operating >system. No machine running one 8Mhz 68000, with a simple blitter and a >multitasking operating system is going to be able to match the arcade version, >not even the Amiga. >-Steve Bollinger This presupposes that the Amiga has a "simple" blitter, which in fact is not the case, nor does it acknowledge the contribution of the Copper to the equation which makes some operations that would be difficult on a blitter fairly easy. For one, you needn't "blit" the car onto the scenery you can just display it there by having the copper switch the point at which memory is displayed, on the line where the car appears. Or you can use all the 8 sprites as a 64 X n X 16 color bitmap to represent the car, while still using them in other places above and below the car. I think the only statement one could reasonably be accurate in making would be "Given the same programmer, the Amiga could not do what a dual 16Mhz 68000 with blitters graphic system can do." However, the key is _same programmer_ which is so rarely the case. The statement made earlier about no one having pushed the Amiga to it's limits is correct. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"
rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie (04/29/89)
In article <11555@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: > In article <39867@vax1.tcd.ie> rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie writes: >>In article <11454@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >>> I seriously doubt it. Sega has some really nice scaling blitter chips in >>> the arcade machines. It's why they can have all kinds of stuff rushing at >>> you at high speeds. > >>Nonsense. The Amiga is easily capable of doing arcade-perfect Outrun. > > Sigh. I wish people would actually read my stuff before they reply. > > The Sega coin-ops are like an Amiga cubed. They have far better > hardware than the Amiga does. The scaling blitters are what make the > blowaway high speed 3D graphics possible. Yes, the Amiga can store > bitmaps and yes it can blit them to the screen really fast, but nowhere > near as fast as the Sega hardware can. The Amiga doesn't even have the > bus bandwidth to keep up with the Sega games, much less the hardware! A Sega arcade machine pushed to its limits could probably outperform an Amiga pushed to its limits (even without the copper and sprites), though of course if you had a 68020 running in 32-bit RAM at the same time as the blitter was working it would be a different story ... this would still cost less than a Sega. My point is that both systems are capable of far more than they've ever been used for. It's like back on the Commodore 64 ... there was an article in a magazine that claimed a game called Beach-Head proved that "the aging 64 has now been pushed to its absolute limits" (Commodore User, can't remember the issue). Now there are games on the 64 that blow away anything dreamed of in those days. The Amiga has already done games (Roadwars, Interceptor, Space Harrier) that compare well with the arcade Out Run, and the machine is a lot younger and has a lot less of its potential tapped than the 64 was when that statement was made about it. And the Amiga has the advantage because thousands of programmers have access to the machine for many years so the pool of programming talent is far greater. "To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem" Russell Wallace, Trinity College, Dublin rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (05/02/89)
In article <40513@vax1.tcd.ie>, rwallace@vax1.tcd.ie writes: > > A Sega arcade machine pushed to its limits could probably outperform an Amiga > pushed to its limits (even without the copper and sprites), though of course > if you had a 68020 running in 32-bit RAM at the same time as the blitter was > working it would be a different story ... this would still cost less than a > Sega. My point is that both systems are capable of far more than they've ever > been used for. I take it you never done any of the kind of programming that you are talking about, because you are 100% out to lunch. You see if the way the Amiga is designed you can't use 68020 whatever to enhance the blitter performance for by even 1%. Besides there are a great many things that can't be done with just the blitter. In fact if the 68020 is making the graphics, there is most likely little that can be done with the blitter. (The above all relate to high resolution graphics on the amiga and doesn't apply to 4 color low resolution graphics) The problem is the CHIP/Fast RAM partitions in the Amiga. The blitter can't use fast RAM, and the 68020 can't use chip RAM very quickly if the blitter is running. The only way around this problem is to run in low res. 4 color mode, then things work smoothly. However 4 color low res. is hardly pushing the limits. Maybe an Amiga 3000 might look like this: -------------- ****************** | Custom |--|--------| * * |------| | Chips | | Master |---* FAST 32bit RAM *----|Slave |--|.....| -------------- | MMU | * * | MMU | | CPU | ---------- ****************** |------| |.....| * Only one big pool of memory * Custom Chips or CPU only hog a page at a time, limiting CYCLE STEALING * No more out of chip ram problems * Opens the door to many great improvements: - .8 ucron CMOS blazing fast Custom Chips - faster, wider RAM - faster CPU's - one could be changed without the other. Anyway I think a lot of people are pushing the limits of the Amiga, and basic redesign could really help. Wayne Knapp