jmpiazza@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Joseph M. Piazza) (04/30/89)
Thanks to all who responded. I also managed to find the article
that appears to explain why so many Seagate hard drives (a ST-138N 30 Meg
3.5" SCSI in my case) fail to spin-up when power is turned on. I also
briefly describe the fix as well as include a few other tidbits including
some warrenty info.
[From: thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan)
[Subject: Re: Those seagates
[Date: 13 Jan 89 12:05:53 GMT
[ ...
[Maybe I should repost this once a month or something.
I'll say,
[... I've been hearing from MANY people that MOST
[Seagate drives have the same problem (this also from several dealers).
[Experience NOW suggests that only the ST-4096 is a good drive from Seagate due
[to its linear actuator (vs. rotary stepper) for the head/arm assembly. I've
[received HUNDREDS of comments from people all over describing the non-spin
[problem with most Seagate disk drive models after the drives have been in
[operation more than a few months, so the reasonable conclusion is that Seagate
[disk drives are inherently flawed; caveat emptor.
"... a few months ..." Mine was right on schedule.
[The design (or manufacturing?) flaws with Seagate drives center on the
[auto-park/drive-braking assembly. The anecdotes following describe only SOME
[of the experiences of others besides myself.
[
[Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]
[==============================================================================
[Eric Bergan comments about problems with his ST-251 hard drive ...
[
[There are inherent flaws in the design of the ST251 such that the drive motor
[will NOT spin due to the arms not coming out of park position (which they enter
[upon power-down of the drive). ...
[>From: thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan)
[Newsgroups: comp.sys.att
[Subject: Re: HELP with 7300 hard disk PLEASE
[Date: 1 Nov 88 09:43:22 GMT
[
[First thing next morning, called Seagate (Scotts Valley) QA Manager and
[discussed my findings. An engineer was consulted and confirmed that the
[ST251 drive has "failsafes" to prevent main spindle rotation IF the arms
[don't come out of `park' during the power up sequence.
[
The fix is to get at the bottom of the drive and give the
spindle-thingie a twist using some long nose pliers or whatever (I have
reason to believe that all Seagates are the same in this respect).
Thanks to Erik Bennett <bennete@urania.CS.ORST.EDU> for setting me straight
on how to do this. It turns out I was too timid to touch the static brush
which lays on the tip of the spindle -- it was very flexible and can simply
be bent out of the way. So grab the spindle and give it a quarter turn or
so and you're ready to rock-n-roll.
This would be easy to bear if it wasn't for the fact that I have to
completely dismount the drive from my 2000 to get at it.
As for the warrenty:
[Date: 16 Apr 89 16:43:06 EDT (Sun)
[From: ames!ucqais.uc.edu!ggibeau (George Gibeau)
[
[Seagate Corp. have a two-fold warranty program. If you have a
[dated receipt, there is a 1-year from purchase warranty, if no
[receipt, then you fall under their orphan program. There is a
[date on the side of the drive (usually stamped in black ink), this
[is the date of manufacture (week and year), if the drive is within
[a year of date of manufacture, they will either fix or replace
[it for $35.00 (there is an 800 number you call to get RMA #) I have
[used this service with GREAT results.
Since it seems that I'm stuck with this lemon or another lemon
replacement that won't show its true nature until a few months have passed
does anybody know how to prevent the lock-up? Like, what if we were to park
the heads "manually" BEFORE we turn it off? Has anybody tried this?
Can anybody tell me how to park the heads so I can try?
In summary:
While I haven't contacted Seagate yet, the simple fact that I have been able to
gather information describing so many complaints over the course of only a few
days amazes me. And I'm pissed that any company could let this happen.
Flip side,
joe piazza
--- "Where's my other sock?" A. Einstein
CS Dept. SUNY at Buffalo 14260
UUCP: ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!jmpiazza GEnie: jmpiazza
BITNET: jmpiazza@sunybcs.BITNET Internet: jmpiazza@cs.Buffalo.edurichard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (04/30/89)
In article <5586@cs.Buffalo.EDU> jmpiazza@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Joseph M. Piazza) writes: > >[From: thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) >[Experience NOW suggests that only the ST-4096 is a good drive from Seagate due Well..... as I said earlier there was an article in PC week about Seagate's current problem with with quality control. To briefly re-iterate, the worst off drives were the 3" drives. Oh joy. Next worst off, specifically mentioned were the ST-4096. Distributors mentioned up to 24% failure rates. I have a 30 meg seagate at home. It's ok so far, but I'm nervous. I buy a fair number of disk drives at work; I've seen wierdnesses with seagate drives - I wont buy them anymore. Fujitsu makes a nice little 3" 40 M drive that gets 62 M with RLL. Miniscribe makes a nice 71 M full height 5" drive. Recommended. ------------- One of the wierdnesses I've seen with the seagates is when they turned on end (ie a tower PC case instead of a desktop unit) unless they are reformatted IN THAT POSITION, they get a not insignificant number of disk errors. Anybody else seen this ? (this is with half height 5" 20M drives) -- ``The way to heaven is through weasel lore!'' - Ted Kaldis richard@gryphon.COM decwrl!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.NASA.GOV
alh@hprmokg.HP.COM (Al Harrington) (05/01/89)
I have 2 ST 238R drives that have been running on my BBS for over 2 years (24 hours per day) with no problems whatsoever. I haven't heard of any major problems with the 238's. I'm using an Adaptec RLL controller (on a PC). +-----------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | -Al Harrington //// | Instant Guru BBS | | ________ //// | (916) 488-9278 | | |__/\__| \\\\ //// | 120 Megs - All Amiga! | | \\\X/// | Over 1000 files online | | alh@hprmo.HP.COM \XXX/ | Baud: 1200/2400 Hours: 24 | | ..{hplabs,hp-sde}!hprmo!alh | PCPursuit: CASAC 1200/2400 | +-----------------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | My comments in no way reflect the views or opinions of Hewlett-Packard | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
yuan@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Yuan 'Hacker' Chang) (05/01/89)
In article <15311@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes:
-
-Well..... as I said earlier there was an article in PC week about
-Seagate's current problem with with quality control.
- [ . . . . . ]
-Next worst off, specifically mentioned were the ST-4096. Distributors
-mentioned up to 24% failure rates.
My 4096 just failed on me recently, so I guess I'm qualified to
comment on this. 8) It seems that the newer drives from Seagate has more
problems than the old ones. Mine just has a horrible head crash for no
apparent reason: I was just using my AT as a terminal, and all of a
sudden the drive just decided to recalibrate itself. Since the system unit
is located on a shelf which I have no chance of knocking into (too many
things in the way 8), I didn't think much of it. Then when I turned off
the drive, I heard the disk squeek. Next time that I turned the system on,
the drive wouldn't initialize, and I could hear all kinds of screams and
gronks eminating from the drive. This self-destructive behaviour for a 4
month old drive really surprised me. I also saw a 4038 where a head fell
off the actuator arm without external shock of any sort. On the other
hand, my 4 year old ST-225 is still alive and kicking...
--
Yuan Chang "What can go wrong, did"
UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax,dcdwest}!ucsd!nosc!uhccux!yuan
ARPA: uhccux!yuan@nosc.MIL "Wouldn't you like to
INTERNET: yuan@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu be an _A_m_i_g_o_i_d too?!?"mjl@ut-emx.UUCP (mjl) (05/01/89)
In article <5586@cs.Buffalo.EDU> jmpiazza@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Joseph M. Piazza) writes:
[ more disturbing news about Seagate drives ]
As an owner of a ST-277N, I've been watching the discussion of `the
great Seagate question' for a while now. What I'd really like to know
is:
(1) is this thing purely a quality control problem? as opposed to..
(2) are they all garbage? (i.e. will they all fail from this problem
eventually?)
If (1), maybe I don't have to worry.
If (2), maybe I also don't have to worry if my duty-cycle is long
enough? I mean, say I go 2-3 weeks between turning on/off my hard
disk, will this extend my MTBF by a factor of 10 as well?
Maurice LeBrun | "So then I says to Borg, `You know,
Institute for Fusion Studies | as long as we're under siege, one of us
University of Texas at Austin | oughta moon these Saxon dogs.'"
Internet: mjl@128.83.131.1 |
(mjl@fusion.ph.utexas.edu) | (Far Side)richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (05/02/89)
In article <12584@ut-emx.UUCP> mjl@emx.UUCP (Maurice LeBrun) writes: >As an owner of a ST-277N, I've been watching the discussion of `the >great Seagate question' for a while now. What I'd really like to know >is: > >(1) is this thing purely a quality control problem? Yes. Their clean rooms wern't, and the media they were using was trash. >as opposed to.. A desihn flaw ? No. Their drives, are one of the better designs around. >(2) are they all garbage? (i.e. will they all fail from this problem >eventually?) No. About 25 - 30% of them are. >If (1), maybe I don't have to worry. >If (2), maybe I also don't have to worry if my duty-cycle is long >enough? I mean, say I go 2-3 weeks between turning on/off my hard >disk, will this extend my MTBF by a factor of 10 as well? If the drive is gonna fail, apparantly it's gonna fail in the first few months. (the sound of a collective sigh of relief dawns over comp.sys.amiga) -- ``The way to heaven is through weasel lore!'' - Ted Kaldis richard@gryphon.COM decwrl!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.NASA.GOV
jmpiazza@sunybcs.uucp (Joseph M. Piazza) (05/03/89)
In article <13240025@hprmokg.HP.COM> alh@hprmokg.HP.COM (Al Harrington) writes: >I have 2 ST 238R drives that have been running on my BBS for over 2 years >(24 hours per day) with no problems whatsoever. > That's the point -- the problem occurs when you turn them OFF and then turn them ON. Some of the suckers don't spin on their own. Yes, I know: "don't turn them off." But I say, "Gee, all the other kids turn their hard drives off, why not me?" joe piazza
jmpiazza@sunybcs.uucp (Joseph M. Piazza) (05/03/89)
In article <15369@gryphon.COM> richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >In article <12584@ut-emx.UUCP> mjl@emx.UUCP (Maurice LeBrun) writes: > >>As an owner of a ST-277N, I've been watching the discussion of `the >>great Seagate question' for a while now. What I'd really like to know >>is: >> >>(1) is this thing purely a quality control problem? > >Yes. Their clean rooms wern't, and the media they were using >was trash. > >>as opposed to.. > >A desihn flaw ? No. Their drives, are one of the better designs around. Hmm. Paraphrasing from my previous post: [From: thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) [There are inherent flaws in the design of [virtualy every model] such [that the drive motor will NOT spin due to the arms not coming out of park [position (which they enter upon power-down of the drive)... due to its ... [rotary stepper for the head/arm assembly. And Thad does go on to say the it is a design flaw. Then you say ... >>(2) are they all garbage? (i.e. will they all fail from this problem >>eventually?) > >No. About 25 - 30% of them are. ... >If the drive is gonna fail, apparantly it's gonna fail in the >first few months. > >(the sound of a collective sigh of relief dawns over comp.sys.amiga) I would love to believe you. It sounds like it should be possible to get Seagate to replace the lemon I got now (I've only had it for a few months and I understand that it has a one year warranty) and eventualy get one that will work. However, your first statement conflicts with the one I posted. Anyone care to set us straight? Flip side, joe piazza PS: Sorry Richard, ImageWriter II's can print color; the others don't. ;-) --- In capitalism, man exploits man. In communism, it's the other way around. CS Dept. SUNY at Buffalo 14260 UUCP: ..!{ames,boulder,decvax,rutgers}!sunybcs!jmpiazza GEnie:jmpiazza BITNET: jmpiazza@sunybcs.BITNET Internet: jmpiazza@cs.Buffalo.edu >richard@gryphon.COM decwrl!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.NASA.GOV
richard@gryphon.COM (Richard Sexton) (05/04/89)
In article <5640@cs.Buffalo.EDU> jmpiazza@sunybcs.UUCP (Joseph M. Piazza) writes: > > I would love to believe you. It sounds like it should be possible to >get Seagate to replace the lemon I got now (I've only had it for a few >months and I understand that it has a one year warranty) and eventualy get >one that will work. However, your first statement conflicts with the one >I posted. It's a nice design. Poorly executed. If they got the right batch of motors in, and tolerences were right for that particular combination of parts, the drive will be fine. All said and done, however, I would'nt get another Seagate drive until I've heard they've brought QC and their DOA rate to at least up to if not exceeding, industry standards. -- ``You are mistaking my good-naturedness for "impotence"'' - Ted Kaldis richard@gryphon.COM decwrl!gryphon!richard gryphon!richard@elroy.jpl.NASA.GOV
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (05/05/89)
Re: all the controversy surrounding Seagate disk drives ... I checked with California Disk Drive Repair Company (Santa Clara, CA) after they spoke at our AT&T Computer Users' Group meeting (I have 4 UNIXPCs (and these are 68010, not "PC", UNIX boxes! :-)), and the phenomenon is known as "white worms" in "the trade" because that's what the excess lubricant on the disk platters looks like under magnification. The design flaw is the need for excess lubricant to pass the QA tests. After a period of use (typically more than 6 months), the lubricant tends to develop patterns and also tends to congregate in clusters. When the heads park, the excessive meniscus literally holds the heads in place preventing them leaving park position; "failsafes" prevent main spindle rotation when the heads don't leave autopark position. The solution (offered by California Disk Drive Repair, and several other disk drive repair companies in this area) is to remove the Seagate platters and replace them with regular oxide disks (the Seagate platters are plated media, which looks like chrome plating; the replacement (non-Seagate) platters have the "typical" brown color). Replacement costs range from $60 to about $120 depending on the drive and the company doing the work. In my situation with the ten ST251 drives, the drives were typically powered up for months at a time, then one day (14 months after purchase) they all started to NOT spin on powerup. The date code was 8704 (or 8707). I also have an ST157N, but it's been running now for over 12 months and hasn't been powered down, so I don't know if this SPECIFIC one has the problem also, but I've heard from dealers that many do (have the problem). The problem seems more prevalent with Seagate drives simply because they (used to?) sell more drives than anyone else, but other companies' drives have been known to exhibit similar problems. The actual problem is caused during assembly, when the line workers wipe the platters too much (with a "cloth" impregnated with a godawful chemical whose name I hope I never have to spell! :-) The design specs called for "one wipe", but the uneven application (by the line workers) caused the platters to be rejected during optical inspection; the workers, not wishing to appear to not meeting their quotas, would wipe the disks three, four and even five times to "lay down" an even (and thicker) layer of the lubricant (which causes a long-term problem known as "stiction" ... this is when the heads are figuratively glued to the platter by the lubricant's meniscus when the heads are parked. In summary: the solution is to get a replacement drive from Seagate (and hope for the best), or to replace the platters in the drive with platters that were not overlubricated. The blame clearly lies with Seagate re: 1) poor material specification 2) shoddy assembly procedures 3) inadequate QA But, then, Seagate drives aren't as expensive as Maxtor, Quantum, Conner, Micropolis and Sony. And the "funny" thing is, the problem doesn't occur with the "el cheapo" Seagates using normal oxide media; only with the plated media drives with super-smooth surfaces, low-mass heads, and excess lubricant. Thad Floryan [thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad]