mkd@mtunh.ATT.COM (Mark Darby) (05/19/89)
Since it's been a while since my last post on my subject, I hope that there will be some people who will be able to answer my question about a particular setup that I want to achieve with my Amiga. I know that there are at least a couple (possibly more???) implementations of multiple serial ports available for the Amiga 2000. They are both from ASDG and from what I hear, I see nothing but praise for the quality of their products. I have an Amiga 500, and I understand the limitations of it's expansion capabilities. I want to expand the machine to support multiple serial ports, and I can get this by getting one of the ASDG products (my preference is the $299 (?) Dual serial board). However, I need some sort of expansion "cage" to support the A2000 form factor card. I harassed Perry/ASDG on the net regarding whether the board would work in one of the available cages for the 500. I even bugged him at the New York AmiExpo. He hadn't tried it on one of the available expansion cages (Tool Box, Bus Expander, a box from Phoenix Tech(??), etc.) though he had tested the board with a 500 in old cages which originally held A1000 expansion cards but the sides had to be cut away to hold the A2000 form factor. So now I ask..to Perry/ASDG, to the net here... Has anyone successfully used a multiport serial board with a 500 in one of the currently available expansion cages for the 500? Thanks in advance for any information that anyone can give me!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark K. Darby AT&T Bell Laboratories AT&T: (201)957-2706 200 Laurel Ave. uucp:..!att!mtunh!mkd Middletown, NJ 07748
bdiscoe@tybalt.caltech.edu (Ben W. Discoe) (05/20/89)
In article <656@mtunh.ATT.COM> mkd@mtunh.UUCP (Mark Darby) writes: > >I know that there are at least a couple (possibly more???) implementations >of multiple serial ports available for the Amiga 2000. > >I have an Amiga 500, and I understand the limitations of it's expansion >capabilities. I want to expand the machine to support multiple serial >ports, and I can get this by getting one of the ASDG products (my >preference is the $299 (?) Dual serial board). However, I need >some sort of expansion "cage" to support the A2000 form factor card. > > [comments about puttin the 2000 board in a 500 expansion box] >held A1000 expansion cards but the sides had to be cut away to hold >the A2000 form factor. > >Has anyone successfully used a multiport serial board with a 500 in one >of the currently available expansion cages for the 500? I had a similar need, multi-serial ports for my 1000. After determining that (1) nothing of the kind existed and (2) even for the 2000 it costs an arm and a leg, I built one myself, with ~$30 of parts, three days of work and a lot of help from friends. No, it doesn't work yet, the software side needs to be done. I suppose I'll have to buy the Exec docs, or maybe the "Guru's Guide" somethingorather. Much better would be to get the software that drives the ASDG device and follow the same interfacing design they used. However, I don't know if ASDG would be so friendly. ... (PLEASE?) The whole point of this message is that this is (1) not a difficult project and (2) it should work identically on the 500, just putting the bus connector on upside-down. When (if) the software works, I would gladly give out the design and instructions, in the style of the LUCAS project. This, however, is an IF that depends on how much help I can find with the software side. >Thanks in advance for any information that anyone can give me!! > >Mark K. Darby >AT&T Bell Laboratories AT&T: (201)957-2706 >200 Laurel Ave. uucp:..!att!mtunh!mkd >Middletown, NJ 07748 Actually, I'm rather asking for help than being helpful, but I though this would be of general interest notwithstanding. - Ben, starving tech student
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (05/21/89)
I think that the most expensive part of a serial board IS the
software. On the IBM you just stick a chip or two on a bus and let it
go. On the Amiga you have a "real" bus to deal with and you have to
write software to support it.
In fact, I think whoever had the best software will win the
serial card competition. By the way, I'm told that the ASDG board is
shipping and doing very well. Is anyone else shipping yet?
-Tom
--
Tom Limoncelli -- tlimonce@drunivac.Bitnet -- limonce@pilot.njin.net
Drew University -- Box 1060, Madison, NJ -- 201-408-5389
Standard Disclaimer: I am not the mouth-piece of Drew Universitylphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (05/21/89)
In <10744@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu>, bdiscoe@tybalt.caltech.edu (Ben W. Discoe) writes: > I had a similar need, multi-serial ports for my 1000. ... > No, it doesn't work yet, the software side needs to be done. I suppose > I'll have to buy the Exec docs, or maybe the "Guru's Guide" somethingorather. > Much better would be to get the software that drives the ASDG device and follow > the same interfacing design they used. However, I don't know if ASDG would be > so friendly. ... (PLEASE?) Is there any particular reason why you think ASDG would be willing to give away the software for one of their products? > The whole point of this message is that this is (1) not a difficult project > and (2) it should work identically on the 500, just putting the bus connector > on upside-down. When (if) the software works, I would gladly give out the > design and instructions, in the style of the LUCAS project. This, however, > is an IF that depends on how much help I can find with the software side. (1) If it isn't difficult, then you shouldn't have to ask for software for a commercial product. (2) The A500 expansion connector is not 'upside down' when compared to the A1000 expansion connector. Please don't take this as a flame. I see postings all the time saying 'This would be easy to do, with little effort and cost', usually coupled with 'product x is too expensive'. There is a world of difference between your slap-on-the-side homebrew project and ASDGs multi-serial offering (and the same goes for most homebrew, 'hardware only so far' projects and their commercial counterparts). Is your hardware auto-config? Does it properly implement the CBM specs for the machine it's intended for? It's a lot easier to wire up a kludge to operate at a fixed address than it is to implement autoconfig. It's a lot easier to ignore the bus specs when you don't plan on running any other peripherals off the expansion bus. Yes, you have a board built, cheaply and relatively easily. You have maybe 1/10 of the work done. The software is the biggie. It will be virtually guaranteed to take 10 times as long, with 10 times the effort required for the hardware, and with less chance of you being able to bypass the design rules. By the sound of your posting, you are not in a position to 'easily write the sofwtare', so it could be that 10 times is a VERY conservative estimate of what it will really take. Yes, you will need books, and a lot of time to learn the ins and outs of writing devices, not to mention the actual time spent writing and debugging the code. If you're doing it for fun, fine, but if you figure your time as being worth something, you'd best factor that into the calculation before you say that 'product x is too expensive'. -larry -- - Don't tell me what kind of a day to have! - +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca or uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
perry@madnix.UUCP (Perry Kivolowitz) (05/25/89)
On Christmas day I sat down to write our serial driver. On New Years
day I had a driver which would mostly run most terminal programs. Mostly.
Enough, in fact, that I could have easily have fooled people at trade
shows into believing we had a perfectly working and complete system.
Then the hard work started. Hundreds of special cases. Idiosyncracies.
Strange behaviours of the Amiga serial device which needed to be pinned
down so they could be emulated. Undocumented behaviours. Obscure
commands. Interactions. Stress cases, pathological cases. Writing
programs intended to show each and every one of these cases one at
a time and prove that our driver sucessfully navigated them.
After five months of intensive work, our driver was finished.
Add to this three months of intensive work going on in parallel to
produce an effective multiple serial port solution for DOS and CLI
users.
You want my software for free? Right. You're typical of what's wrong
with the Amiga market. This ain't no damn 64. Grow up.
The person who said ``he with the best software will win'' is
right. We aim to win.
--
Perry Kivolowitz, ASDG Inc.
ARPA: madnix!perry@cs.wisc.edu {uunet|ncoast}!marque!
UUCP: {harvard|rutgers|ucbvax}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!perry
CIS: 76004,1765 (what was that about ``giggling teenagers''?) kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (05/27/89)
In article <664@madnix.UUCP> perry@madnix.UUCP (Perry Kivolowitz) writes:
You want my software for free? Right. You're typical of what's wrong
with the Amiga market. This ain't no damn 64. Grow up.
I believe you've got the situation reversed. On the 64, there wasn't
anything nearly as useful as the equivalent of a serial port driver in
the public domain. The Amiga, on the other hand, would die without
public domain/shareware/freeware. (The only reason the 64 is around
still, I think, is 'cause kids tell their friends "Buy a 64 and I'll
let you copy my 5,000 disks full of games!")
But in any case, I don't believe he was asking you for a complimentary
copy of your software, was he? (1) it probably wouldn't work with his
hardware project, and (2) if it did, he wouldn't be asking *you* for
it. No need to get so defensive; the only reason I've ever heard of
your company is because I used your recoverable ram disk for a year or
so. With that kind of track record, I'm surprised to see you putting
down freely-redistributable stuff as you are..... as it happens,
there'd have to be some pretty damned stiff and reputable competition
before I even considered anything but the ASDG serial board, assuming
I were to go insane and decide to put up a multi-line BBS. Ditto for
the scanner package.
--
Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS>
Pi-Rho America \\ /// 1989 New York Gay Pride Parade: 25 June 1989
2346 15th St. \\ /// 20th Anniversary of Stonewall Riots BE THERE!
Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order
(518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush
"It's not disco.... it's the traditional folk music of my people!" -Meiphwk@TERRA.OSCS.MONTANA.EDU (Bill Kinnersley) (05/27/89)
[In "Re: Card Cages and extra serial port support for A500",
Perry Kivolowitz said:]
:
: You want my software for free? Right. You're typical of what's wrong
: with the Amiga market. This ain't no damn 64. Grow up.
:
And this ain't no damn World War III neither. Lighten up.
It's your right to say "No", but no matter how ignorant and presumptuous
you regard the question, you can still say no pleasantly.
No telling how many more customers you might have it you didn't
always come across sounding like Mussolini.
: --
: Perry Kivolowitz, ASDG Inc.
: ARPA: madnix!perry@cs.wisc.edu {uunet|ncoast}!marque!
: UUCP: {harvard|rutgers|ucbvax}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!perry
: CIS: 76004,1765 (what was that about ``giggling teenagers''?)
:
--
--Bill Kinnersley
Physics Department Montana State University Bozeman, MT 59717
INTERNET: iphwk@terra.oscs.montana.edu BITNET: IPHWK@MTSUNIX1
226 Transfer complete.lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (05/28/89)
> In <KUDLA.89May27022710@pawl13.pawl.rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: > In article <664@madnix.UUCP> perry@madnix.UUCP (Perry Kivolowitz) writes: > > You want my software for free? Right. You're typical of what's wrong > with the Amiga market. This ain't no damn 64. Grow up. > > I believe you've got the situation reversed. On the 64, there wasn't > anything nearly as useful as the equivalent of a serial port driver in > the public domain. Depends on what you call useful I guess. I had quite a number of useful PD items that were at least as useful as a serial port driver (and even wrote a few of them myself). I think though, that Perry's comment was aimed more at the 'something for nothing', 'gimme, gimme, gimme' attitude so prevalent in the low cost computer arena. > The Amiga, on the other hand, would die without public > domain/shareware/freeware. Yes, the number of free/shareware packages available for the Amiga is truly astounding. It has indeed helped the AMiga get where it is today. It is also important, however, that the developers producing commercial software reap some rewards for their efforts, or the machine will suffer because of it. > (The only reason the 64 is around still, I think, is 'cause kids tell their > friends "Buy a 64 and I'll let you copy my 5,000 disks full of games!") That's it.. the 'something for nothing' attitude. It is prevalent on virtually all computers, but more so on the lower cost ones. It reflects a complete lack of understanding of the value of software from the point of view of the effort it takes to produce, or of the importance of putting food on the developer's table if you choose to use the product. > But in any case, I don't believe he was asking you for a complimentary > copy of your software, was he? (1) it probably wouldn't work with his > hardware project, and (2) if it did, he wouldn't be asking *you* for > it. No need to get so defensive; The message Perry was replying to was mine, though it was not me that was asking for the software. I quote... >In <10744@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu>, bdiscoe@tybalt.caltech.edu (Ben W. Discoe) writes: >> I had a similar need, multi-serial ports for my 1000. ... > >> No, it doesn't work yet, the software side needs to be done. I suppose >> I'll have to buy the Exec docs, or maybe the "Guru's Guide" somethingorather. >> Much better would be to get the software that drives the ASDG device and follow >> the same interfacing design they used. However, I don't know if ASDG would be >> so friendly. ... (PLEASE?) > Is there any particular reason why you think ASDG would be willing to give away > the software for one of their products? Sure looks like he wants not only the software, but wants the interfacing details as well. Defensive? Yes, Perry was defensive. I am surprised his flame thrower wasn't set to 'crisp'. > the only reason I've ever heard of your company is because I used your > recoverable ram disk for a year or so. With that kind of track record, I'm > surprised to see you putting down freely-redistributable stuff as you are..... Where did he put down freely-redistibutable stuff? He was merely pointing out that he put considerable effort into producing a serial driver intended to be part of a commercial product, and was commenting on the 'gimme, gimme, gimme' attitude shown by the one who requested the results of that effort. Bottom line is that Perry has witen PD, shareware, and commercial software, as have a number of developers on the Amiga, and is well within reasonable bounds of decorum in answering as he did. -larry -- - Don't tell me what kind of a day to have! - +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca or uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Portuesi) (05/30/89)
> Excerpts from ext.nn.comp.sys.amiga: 25-May-89 Re: Card Cages and extra > se.. Perry Kivolowitz@madnix. (1349) > On Christmas day I sat down to write our serial driver. On New Years > day I had a driver which would mostly run most terminal programs. Mostly. > Then the hard work started. Hundreds of special cases. Idiosyncracies. > After five months of intensive work, our driver was finished. > You want my software for free? Right. You're typical of what's wrong > with the Amiga market. This ain't no damn 64. Grow up. Well, not to belittle your software development efforts, but the program I am using to compose this message is free software, as well as the user interface toolkit it was built with, the window manager it runs under and a good portion of the software that was used to develop it. I think any one of these pieces of software is at least as difficult to write as your serial driver. The Unix workstation which is running this free software is a more mature and professional environment than a C-64. It is also more mature and professional than the Amiga. Some people want to share software solutions with other people because it is the hacker ethic, not because they used to own a C-64 with hundreds of disks worth of pirated software. While I do recognize your rights to keep proprietary a piece of software that you obviously spent a long time developing, I don't think you should belittle others for subscribing to the same ethic that has made the Amiga one of the nicest machines available for obtaining freely-distributable software, often with source code. > Excerpts from ext.nn.comp.sys.amiga: 25-May-89 Re: Card Cages and extra > se.. Perry Kivolowitz@madnix. (1349) > The person who said ``he with the best software will win'' is > right. We aim to win. Certainly good software will help you win, but just as important is a friendly attitude towards your potential customers. This is not the first piece of inflammatory mail that I have seen you post on the net. I don't particularly think it wears well on you or your company, especially given the fact that you are one of the leading developers of third-party hardware and software for the Amiga. --M -- Michael Portuesi * Carnegie Mellon University INTERNET: mp1u+@andrew.cmu.edu * BITNET: mp1u+@andrew UUCP: ...harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!mp1u+ MAIL: Carnegie Mellon University, P.O. Box 259, Pittsburgh, PA 15213
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (06/02/89)
(Wow a posting from Perry I completely agree with! :-)) In article <664@madnix.UUCP> perry@madnix.UUCP (Perry Kivolowitz) writes: >On Christmas day I sat down to write our serial driver. On New Years >day I had a driver which would mostly run most terminal programs. Mostly. >Enough, in fact, that I could have easily have fooled people at trade >shows into believing we had a perfectly working and complete system. This is typically the "hack" stage, a lot new developers confuse this with the "product" stage and start advertising ... >Then the hard work started. Hundreds of special cases. Idiosyncracies. >Strange behaviours of the Amiga serial device which needed to be pinned >down so they could be emulated. Undocumented behaviours. Obscure >commands. Interactions. Stress cases, pathological cases. Writing >programs intended to show each and every one of these cases one at >a time and prove that our driver sucessfully navigated them. > >After five months of intensive work, our driver was finished. And this is what separates the developers from the hackers. And it burns out a lot of people along the way. Perry was lucky that this stage only lasted about 5months. For a really complicated system such as a Desktop Publisher or a Music sequencer, this period can last 2 years or more. And for those who started advertising the bills begin to accumulate, and so does the hate mail from people who ordered the product or called for more info. And more importantly so does the pressure to ship that original hack even though you "know" it isn't ready yet. >Add to this three months of intensive work going on in parallel to >produce an effective multiple serial port solution for DOS and CLI >users. And that is the final "cap" to the solution, ie making it work with the rest of the system. Complete this successfully and you actually have a real "product" to release. >You want my software for free? Right. You're typical of what's wrong >with the Amiga market. This ain't no damn 64. Grow up. Right, and you have to deal with a bunch of weenies who might even get to the "hack" stage complaining that it isn't PD. The fact being that if you can't do it yourself you shouldn't complain when someone decides to do it and charge you for it. Unfortunately they are a fact of life, more so now that we have the A500 with us, we just have to ignore them. >The person who said ``he with the best software will win'' is >right. We aim to win. Way to go, show no mercy. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"