C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) (06/05/89)
After silently accepting the following abuses in many pd and commerical
programs I have decided to compile a list and submit them to the net in
hopes of reducing these anoyances. So here they are in order of
decreasing agravation...
1) No Multitasking
Well, this one pretty much speaks for itself. I will tolerate this
only in games and even then the game has to be just short of
extrordinary to be acceptable.
2) Full size, gadgetless windows on the workbench screen
This is almost the same as #1. The programs that are already running
will continue running but you can't start up any new ones!
This is darn near inexcuseable. If you absolultely must have a
borderless, gadgetless window put it on a custom screen. I still won't
like it but it might be useable.
Known culprits: Hed, PerfectSound
3) Full size, non-resisable windows on the workbench screen.
This is pretty much the same as #2 except now there are click to back
and click to front gadgets. If can still multitask as long as I have a
cli window already open but if I don't it's no better than #2.
4) Turning off the Screen DMA.
I only know of one program that does this, NIB. I usually turn off the
monitor durring coppies becuase of this. If NIB wasn't such a good
product otherwise as well as the ONLY shareware copy program I wouldn't
use it at all.
5) Full size, non-resizealbe windows on Custom screens.
Now we get to programs that I can tolerate some of the time. These work
just fine when you are using only one program with a custom screen.
Amiga-m and Amiga-n work very nicely. But if you have two or more custom
you will eventually have to juggle the screens that CAN be pushed back,
hunt for a "send to back" menu item on the offending screen or failing that
actually shut down the program just to get to a screen that got behind that
program.
This is really unecessary. If the program needs 25 lines then use overscan
Known Offender: VLT
6) Unessarily tying up the CPU.
This is usually the result of "busy looping" A prime offender in this
catagory is the Lattice Screen Editor. Everything else slows to a crawl
when this program is running. I haven't seen any other editors do this.
7) Poor use of system resources.
This covers anything from old versions of zoo not removing file locks to
Sonix grabing the serial port. A related problem is with LSE (again)
Ever try to abort a print job in LSE? You can't! You click on abort at
the system requestor and LSE trys again!
8) Poor use of memory.
No, I don't mean programs that are just big. I can live with that most of
the time. I mean things like programs that continue to alocate memory
until there is so little left that the system gurus or the many editors
that will not edit a 400k file on a 1 meg system becuase they seem to want 3
3 bytes for every byte in the file.
9) Programs that do not use menus or anything resembling them.
Most of these programs are unreasonaly difficult to learn. They may turn
out to be very nice one you get that hang of it but I probobly won't find
out becuase it's not worth my time to pour over the manual several times
until I have enough familarity with the program to see if it's usefull!
Known Offenders: DME, Analyticalc
I am actaully trying to learn Analyticalc because it sounds so impressive
but it's not easy.
10) Programs that won't run from workbench.
I pardon all programs that don't make much since from workbench such as
compilers, cli commands and the like.
Come on. How much work can it be make the program workbench launchable?
Some of these programs don't do any I/O at all to the cli!
Well that about does it. While most of what I have incountered is with PD and
shareware programs my opinions stand for commerical as well.
Most of these infractions would not be so grave if they wern't so widespread
and many of the programs to do them so excelent in other regards. :-(
Guess I'll just sit back and watch the flames roll in... :-)
Bitnet: C506634@umcvmb.bitnet __________________________
Internet: C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu / \.--------. / \
"The Amiga just isn't reliable enough unless you | | Eric |---------+ |
know a lot about the machine" -- Jerry Pournelle | `--------' ! |
================================================|| .--------. ! |
"I did notice that at my party people stood in | | Edwards|_________+ |
line to play with the Amiga"-- Jerry Pournelle | /`--------' |
BYTE, October '88 \__________________________/agollum@engr.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron) (06/06/89)
In episode <16916@louie.udel.EDU>, we heard C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) say: >3) Full size, non-resisable windows on the workbench screen. > This is pretty much the same as #2 except now there are click to back > and click to front gadgets. If can still multitask as long as I have a > cli window already open but if I don't it's no better than #2. Dmouse has both a window and screen flipper, and you can start up a new CLI any time with a hotkey. It'sa verra verra nice...but you still can't get to the Workbench disk icons :-( >9) Programs that do not use menus or anything resembling them. > Most of these programs are unreasonaly difficult to learn. They may turn > out to be very nice...but I won't find out because it's not worth > my time... > Known Offenders: DME, Analyticalc DME will let you design your own menus, and one of the supplied config files will set up a pretty nice strip. I do agree that the default config could use a few menus but we're probably seeing the programmer's preference here (and hey, waddaya want? it's free...). A more reasonable complaint might be about programs which totally ignore the Amiga interface. ED, the screen editor supplied with Amigados, comes to mind. In its effort to further the state of the art, it eschews the click-to-position-cursor interface in favor of the arrow keys and tosses menus in favor of the meta-nonmnemonic-key-on-the-last-line-of-the-display standard. (How does it further the state of the art? Picture August 1985, and all across the land is heard the cry, "Oh gawd! First thing, I'm gonna write a real editor!" :-) >10) Programs that won't run from workbench. > I pardon all programs that don't make much since from workbench such as > compilers, cli commands and the like. > Come on. How much work can it be make the program workbench launchable? The M2Sprint Modula-2 package comes with six runtime packages; four of these allow starting from either workbench or cli. The other two are delibritely itsy-bitsy and won't allow a workbench startup. However, you have to specifically select one of these two to lose workbench support. Speaking of the same package, the compiler, editor, linker, etc. all will start from the workbench. You can develop code without ever touching a CLI. Kenneth Herron
mk59200@metso.tut.fi (Kolkka Markku Olavi) (06/06/89)
In article <16916@louie.udel.EDU> C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) writes: >After silently accepting the following abuses in many pd and commerical > programs I have decided to compile a list and submit them to the net in > hopes of reducing these anoyances. So here they are in order of > decreasing agravation... > >1) No Multitasking >2) Full size, gadgetless windows on the workbench screen >3) Full size, non-resisable windows on the workbench screen. >4) Turning off the Screen DMA. >5) Full size, non-resizealbe windows on Custom screens. >6) Unessarily tying up the CPU. >7) Poor use of system resources. >8) Poor use of memory. >9) Programs that do not use menus or anything resembling them. >10) Programs that won't run from workbench. > >Well that about does it. While most of what I have incountered is with PD and >shareware programs my opinions stand for commerical as well. >Most of these infractions would not be so grave if they wern't so widespread >and many of the programs to do them so excelent in other regards. :-( > >Guess I'll just sit back and watch the flames roll in... :-) OK, here are a couple of things that I and probably many other European users find _very_ annoying: 11) Bypassing the keymap The operating system provides a standard way to redefine the keymap for use in different languages. Some programs just don't care, and read raw keycodes and treat them as if coming from US-0 keyboard for A1000, ignoring also the extra keys in A500 and A2000 keyboards. Known offenders: MicroEmacs 3.10, old versions of VT100. 12) Assuming that screen size is 640x200 Many programs simply assume the 'least common denominator' or the 640 by 200 standard NTSC screen size, and use it for their custom screens or set the maximum window size to these limits without checking the true screen size. This means that 35% of my MoreRowed PAL display (704 by 280) is left unused. Instead of 85 column by 33 line text display I get 72 by 24. Known offenders: MicroEmacs (again), and many, many others. It seems that the commercial developers are already learning the lesson, many packages work well in international systems, for example Sculpt/Animate 3D and Lattice CodeProbe use the full screen (but CodeProbe does some nasty tricks with keymaps). To all PD/shareware/other developers out there: come on, it isn't really so difficult to do things the right way! -- Markku Kolkka mk59200@tut.fi
C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) (06/07/89)
>Not exactly a flame, but a strong correction. DME does use >menus. However, they are roll-your-own. You have a ".edrc" >startup-file with a listing of what you want to be in your >menus. DME is one pain that turned out to be well worth the >trouble. > --ken > Does it come with a sample ".edrc" file? The version I have does not but then I don't have the current version either. If it does then I stand corrected. Otherwise the ability to "roll-your-own" does nothing to help the new user. He (or she) must still learn the sometimes obscure commands in order to create the menu. That seems to defeat the purpose. Bitnet: C506634@umcvmb.bitnet __________________________ Internet: C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu / \.--------. / \ "The Amiga just isn't reliable enough unless you | | Eric |---------+ | know a lot about the machine" -- Jerry Pournelle | `--------' ! | ================================================|| .--------. ! | "I did notice that at my party people stood in | | Edwards|_________+ | line to play with the Amiga"-- Jerry Pournelle | /`--------' | BYTE, October '88 \__________________________/
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (06/08/89)
In <17014@louie.udel.EDU>, C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) writes: >>Not exactly a flame, but a strong correction. DME does use >>menus. However, they are roll-your-own. You have a ".edrc" >>startup-file with a listing of what you want to be in your >>menus. DME is one pain that turned out to be well worth the >>trouble. >> --ken >Does it come with a sample ".edrc" file? The version I have does not but then >I don't have the current version either. If it does then I stand corrected. > Otherwise the ability to "roll-your-own" does nothing to help the new user. >He (or she) must still learn the sometimes obscure commands in order to create >the menu. That seems to defeat the purpose. It seems to me that DME is one person's idea of an ideal editor. That person has kindly donated it to the world. If it's good for you, fine.. if not, well, there are other editors available. It is not a novice's editor. Complain all you want about commercial software, but try to remember that PD or freely redistributable software is often something that the author found useful, and is under no obligation to be anything more than that. -larry -- Van Roy's Law: An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys. +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca or uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) (06/09/89)
In response to my questioning of the value of DME's "roll your own" menus to a new user Larry Phillips said: >It seems to me that DME is one person's idea of an ideal editor. That person >has kindly donated it to the world. If it's good for you, fine.. if not, >well, there are other editors available. It is not a novice's editor. >Complain all you want about commercial software, but try to remember that PD or >freely redistributable software is often something that the author found >useful, and is under no obligation to be anything more than that. That's a nice speach about what you are 'paying for' in PD but it's beside the point. The cost of an object is not related to it's functionality. If Matt were to pay me to use DME it would not make it easier to use. And I should add I am not a novice. I personally use DME on an occasional basis. It is one of many editors I keep arround for jobs that my usual editor (Jed) can't do. It's fast. Has lots of advanced features and uses memory well. But I have to have the manual beside me at all times whereas I do 95% of my editing with Jed and have scarcely looked at it's manual at all. Bitnet: C506634@umcvmb.bitnet __________________________ Internet: C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu / \.--------. / \ "The Amiga just isn't reliable enough unless you | | Eric |---------+ | know a lot about the machine" -- Jerry Pournelle | `--------' ! | ================================================|| .--------. ! | "I did notice that at my party people stood in | | Edwards|_________+ | line to play with the Amiga"-- Jerry Pournelle | /`--------' | BYTE, October '88 \__________________________/
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (06/10/89)
In <17264@louie.udel.EDU>, C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) writes: >In response to my questioning of the value of DME's "roll your own" menus to a >new user Larry Phillips said: >>It seems to me that DME is one person's idea of an ideal editor. That person >>has kindly donated it to the world. If it's good for you, fine.. if not, >>well, there are other editors available. It is not a novice's editor. >>Complain all you want about commercial software, but try to remember that PD or >>freely redistributable software is often something that the author found >>useful, and is under no obligation to be anything more than that. >That's a nice speach about what you are 'paying for' in PD but it's beside the >point. The cost of an object is not related to it's functionality. If Matt >were to pay me to use DME it would not make it easier to use. And I should >add I am not a novice. I personally use DME on an occasional basis. It is one >of many editors I keep arround for jobs that my usual editor (Jed) can't do. >It's fast. Has lots of advanced features and uses memory well. But I have to >have the manual beside me at all times whereas I do 95% of my editing with Jed >and have scarcely looked at it's manual at all. No, it is not beside the point at all. I can understand why you might think it is, since you missed the point I was making altogether. I did not state that the cost of an object is related to its functionality. Read what I said about the reason the program is there in the first place. It was written by someone for their own use, to suit their own needs, to suit their style. It is blatantly obvious that Matt would not have written DME as it is if he wanted it to be something else. He has released it for other folks to use, and the other folks that are likely to use it will be those that also find it suitable for their needs and style. If you are not one of these, fine. Matt is under no obligation to make any changes that you like, possibly to the detriment of his own use of the program. I'm glad that you have found an editor that you like. I am not familiar with it, but it is altogether likely that Matt would not like it as much as DME, or he would have written DME that way. As for commercial software, it is in the best interests of the vendor to provide what the public wants, since their function in life is to extract as many dollars from the public as they can. The public's function is to get the most benefit in trade for those extracted dollars. -larry -- Van Roy's Law: An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys. +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca or uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
protcoop@bnr-public.uucp (Joel Avery) (06/12/89)
I haven't been following this conversation so forgive me if my pet peeve has already been mentioned. I just sold my A1000 and bought an A500. My dealer was offering a special deal for people who purchase a new system, it was 'The Critic's Choice' software trio at a very good price. It contains KindWords, MaxiPlan 500, and Microfiche Filer. What I really hate is programs that come on a WorkBench disk and expect you to boot them. Come on folks, the Amiga is a multi- tasking machine and can (and should) run many programs at one time. By making your programs need to be booted you eliminate the possibility of doing this. The first thing I had to do with MaxiPlan is to sleuth the startup-sequence to make sure there was nothing special in there. Then I deleted everything that made it a workbench disk. I would hate to have to do all of that if I were a novice user who knew nothing about the Amiga. When will developers realize that we already have our own favorite WorkBench that we boot with. All they need to supply is a program and an icon. This sort of packaging is _a_l_m_o_s_t_ acceptable for games, but for productivity software it is simply unacceptable. It vastly hinders the usefullness of a multitasking machine, unless you really know what you are doing. Comments? -------------------------------- Alan W. McKay | My opinions are mine, yours are yours. | Eat Food | NEPEAN, Ont. | I in no way pretend to represent the | and | 613-763-8980 | the options of my employer. So there. | LIVE !! |
dwl10@uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) (06/13/89)
In article <574@bnr-fos.UUCP> protcoop@bnr-public.UUCP (Joel Avery) writes: > >What I really hate is programs that come on a WorkBench disk and >expect you to boot them. Come on folks, the Amiga is a multi- >tasking machine and can (and should) run many programs at one >time. By making your programs need to be booted you eliminate >the possibility of doing this. The first thing I had to do with >MaxiPlan is to sleuth the startup-sequence to make sure there was >nothing special in there. Then I deleted everything that made it >a workbench disk. I would hate to have to do all of that if I >were a novice user who knew nothing about the Amiga. When will >developers realize that we already have our own favorite WorkBench >that we boot with. All they need to supply is a program and an >icon. This sort of packaging is _a_l_m_o_s_t_ acceptable for games, >but for productivity software it is simply unacceptable. It vastly >hinders the usefullness of a multitasking machine, unless you >really know what you are doing. > >Comments? >-------------------------------- You can usually follow the "Hard Disk" install instructions, but install it on a floppy, with appropriate changes. Thats one of the appeal of workbench, the only thing you need to know NT is how to insert a disk, and how to click on an icon. -- "What is another word | Dave Lowrey | [The opinions expressed MAY be for 'Thesaurus'?" | Amdahl Corp. | those of the author and are not | Houston, Texas | necessarily those of his Steven Wright | amdahl!dwl10 | employer] (`nuff said!)
C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu (Eric Edwards) (06/15/89)
>In article <574@bnr-fos.UUCP> protcoop@bnr-public.UUCP (Joel Avery) writes: [Complains about programs that must be run by booting the disks] [stuff deleted] >>time. By making your programs need to be booted you eliminate >>the possibility of doing this. The first thing I had to do with >>MaxiPlan is to sleuth the startup-sequence to make sure there was >>nothing special in there. Then I deleted everything that made it >>a workbench disk. I would hate to have to do all of that if I [Expresses proper outrage at this] >You can usually follow the "Hard Disk" install instructions, but >install it on a floppy, with appropriate changes. Unfortunately many of these hard disk instructions want to stuff things in c:, fonts:, l: etc. Where there usually isn't room on a floppy system. Not to mention programs that dont't HAVE explicit hard disk instructions. Really programs should have a "fall back" mode when they are not installed quite according to instructions. For example, Word Perfect likes to have some stuff in the Libs: directory. If it can't find it then it looks in :libs (Or is that ""/libs? Hmmmm. Is that legit syntax?) > >Thats one of the appeal of workbench, the only thing you need to know NT >is how to insert a disk, and how to click on an icon. But if you have to hack the instalation procedure just to avoid booting from the disk that blissfull ignorance is shattered. >"What is another word | Dave Lowrey | [The opinions expressed MAY be Bitnet: C506634@umcvmb.bitnet __________________________ Internet: C506634@umcvmb.missouri.edu / \.--------. / \ "The Amiga just isn't reliable enough unless you | | Eric |---------+ | know a lot about the machine" -- Jerry Pournelle | `--------' ! | ================================================|| .--------. ! | "I did notice that at my party people stood in | | Edwards|_________+ | line to play with the Amiga"-- Jerry Pournelle | /`--------' | BYTE, October '88 \__________________________/
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (06/15/89)
<a1Ab02tk34no01@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> Sender: Reply-To: sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Corpane Industries, Inc. Keywords: >In article <574@bnr-fos.UUCP> protcoop@bnr-public.UUCP (Joel Avery) writes: >> Then I deleted everything that made it >>a workbench disk. I would hate to have to do all of that if I >>were a novice user who knew nothing about the Amiga. When will >>developers realize that we already have our own favorite WorkBench >>that we boot with. All they need to supply is a program and an >>icon. >>Comments? Well, In my opinion there is nothing wrong with a company making their software bootable (including it on a workbench disk) such as you describe with Maxiplan. You can still boot off your standard workbench if you wish and put such a disk in the other drive, open the disk, and click the icon. no need to remove all the workbench stuff off the disk. It's just there in case you want to boot off of their disk. The program doesn't stop you from using your own workbench. The real pain is the programs that take over the machine and you HAVE to boot from them and can't have anything else running. Many games are like this. Mostly because of strange copy protection schemes. When will manufacturers realize that WE HATE THAT!!!! We would like to put some of these programs on hard disk. But we can't because of the STOOPID way they make their programs work. Electronic Arts is real bad about this on most of their games. And Psygnosis (sp?) also. I bet their programs for IBM don't stop users from putting them on hard disks. Why on the Amiga? -- John Sparks | {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps ||||||||||||||| sparks@corpane.UUCP | 502/968-5401 thru -5406 You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
bryan@geo-works.UUCP (Bryan Ford) (06/19/89)
In article <574@bnr-fos.UUCP>, protcoop@bnr-public.uucp (Joel Avery) writes: >What I really hate is programs that come on a WorkBench disk and >expect you to boot them... I agree. However, remember the people that don't want to 'get their feet wet', even with the Workbench (Yes, there are some!), and want to just be able to stick the disk in and press a key and things start happening. Of course, most of us, if not all, don't want bootable disks like this, and it can be a real pain to copy a program to a hard disk or install it on a new (non-bootable) disk for regular use. The ideal thing to do (and this is what I've done with Chroma Paint) is to supply a program and an icon, like you said, that can be just dragged to your hard disk or to another floppy, and it'll run from wherever it's located. If it absolutely *must* have more than this, it should come with an easy install/uninstall program, and the install program should tell exactly what it's copying, and where it's copying it to. However, the disk is still bootable, so first-time users can easily get started. In other words, the disk should be bootable, but the program should not be constrained to this environment. Bryan -- ____________________________________________ _/ Bryan Ford - bryan@geo-works.geo-works.com \_ _/ ..!utah-cs!caeco!i-core!geo-works!bryan \_ / ..!uunet!iconsys!caeco!i-core!geo-works!bryan \