Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (07/09/89)
Hi.. a question concerning the Supra SCSI interface/software.....
Ok, first.. the Supra software will automatically partition the first 6 or 7
cylinders of a HD that is SCSI device #0. It does this for Autoboot. However,
since the HD is on an A1000, we don't need this "feature". I was told that if
we changed the SCSI Device # on the HD, to anything other than 0, it would then
not create the area for autoboot. Ok, with this in mind, I changed the Device
# on our Maxtor 280 meg HD, reformatted it, AFTER setting both it and the Supra
software for the appropriate Device #. When the system rebooted and the
SupraMount software tried to do it's thing. What happens is that we get mirror
image devices! What I mean is this... If we set the HD as device #7 for example
it will mount a DH0:-DH7:!! If we set it for device #2 lets say... then it will
mount a DH0:-DH2:!! Does anyone know how to change the SCSI ID# on the HD and
then have the SupraMount program mount it correctly?? Thanks for any and all
help!
- Doug -
Doug_B_Erdely@Portal.Cup.Comthad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (07/10/89)
Re: Doug's questions about the Supra controller for the A1000 and SCSI IDs ... Sigh, this is getting tedious. I'll repeat the instructions for the LAST time. I hope he READs these this time. Set the SCSI ID jumpers on the drive to something OTHER than 0. Do NOT set the ID to 7, because the Supra 4x4 for the A1000 has 7 as its ID. The reason to set the drive's ID to other-than-zero is to NOT usurp the first 6 or 7 cylinders for an autoboot partition. Run the Supra Formatter (and you better be running at least version 5.1; 5.3 is preferable), specify the ID to which the drive has been set, and let it do its thing. Specify FORMAT but do NOT specify the MAP option, let the drive do its own verification ... embedded SCSI drives are supposed to present a perfect media to the host, and the surface checking performed by the drive's built-in controller will do a far better job of checking and bad-block sparing than the present host software. This process will take about 20 minutes for the 3280 (280MB) and about 30 minutes for the 3380 (380MB). Reboot. Re-run the Supra Formatter, respecify the ID to which the drive has been set, and THIS time only do the partition info ... takes but 1 second or so. Reboot, and assuming the SupraMount program is executed in the startup-sequence, then the drive is automatically mounted and ready for use. These procedures are for the Maxtor XT3280 or XT3380 drives, and work fine on ALL my systems and the systems I've built and/or put together for others. Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]
acs@pccuts.pcc.amdahl.com (Tony Sumrall) (07/10/89)
In article <20271@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
:Re: Doug's questions about the Supra controller for the A1000 and SCSI IDs ...
:
:Set the SCSI ID jumpers on the drive to something OTHER than 0. Do NOT set
:the ID to 7, because the Supra 4x4 for the A1000 has 7 as its ID. The reason
:to set the drive's ID to other-than-zero is to NOT usurp the first 6 or 7
:cylinders for an autoboot partition.
With SeriesII 1.06 I just set the flag to SKIP on the SupraFormat screen.
Didn't even bother resetting the LUN. Someone told me, though, that the
lower LUNs will run more slowly since they are "farther down the road"
from the controller. I haven't had a chance to try it out myself, just
passing it along.
:Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]
--
Tony Sumrall acs@pccuts.pcc.amdahl.com <=> amdahl!pccuts!acs
[ Opinions expressed herein are the author's and should not be construed
to reflect the views of Amdahl Corp. ]Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (07/11/89)
Thad, I did all of the above mentioned things, but it did not work! I will
try it again and re-check everything.
- Doug -
Doug_B_Erdely@Portal.Cup.Combillsey@agora.UUCP (Bill Seymour) (07/13/89)
From article <20240@cup.portal.com:, by Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com:
: Hi.. a question concerning the Supra SCSI interface/software.....
:
: Ok, first.. the Supra software will automatically partition the first 6 or 7
: cylinders of a HD that is SCSI device #0. It does this for Autoboot. However,
: since the HD is on an A1000, we don't need this "feature".
Or switch to the latest software (Release II Version 1.07 right now)
The new software doesn't need the OFS partition, it boots directly to FFS, so
the format routine won't try to add that first partition in. There is actually
a way to 'cheat' it with the old software. Turn the 'Auto-calculate' to OFF
on the pull down menu, then manual change the first cylinder to a '1' and
zero the first partition...
: I was told that if
: we changed the SCSI Device # on the HD, to anything other than 0, it would then
: not create the area for autoboot. Ok, with this in mind, I changed the Device
: # on our Maxtor 280 meg HD, reformatted it, AFTER setting both it and the Supra
: software for the appropriate Device #. When the system rebooted and the
: SupraMount software tried to do it's thing. What happens is that we get mirror
: image devices! What I mean is this... If we set the HD as device #7 for example
: it will mount a DH0:-DH7:!! If we set it for device #2 lets say... then it will
: mount a DH0:-DH2:!! Does anyone know how to change the SCSI ID# on the HD and
: then have the SupraMount program mount it correctly?? Thanks for any and all
: help!
Boy, that's a new one on me! I've never seen it... But did I notice
that you changed the device ID of the *drive* to 7? Remember that the SCSI
controller on the computer is a 7 also. I imagine that could get things
very confused... Try a device like 4 or 1...
: - Doug -
:
: Doug_B_Erdely@Portal.Cup.Com
--
-Bill Seymour ...tektronix!reed!percival!agora!billsey
...tektronix!sequent.UUCP!calvin!billsey
Bejed, Inc. NES, Inc. Northwest Amiga Group At Home Sometimes
(503) 691-2552 (503) 246-9311 (503) 656-7393 BBS (503) 640-0842thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (07/13/89)
Re: Doug's problem with the Maxtor XT3280S and the Supra ...
I believe Doug when he says he tried my steps and "it didn't work."
There are several possiblities:
1) he's not booting TWICE on a cold start. For some reason I've been unable
to fathom, the Maxtor drive (and some other exotic drive I tried last year)
requires a second reset ONLY AFTER A COLD BOOT before it will talk properly
with most SCSI host adaptors/interfaces on the Amiga. Works fine on a Sun,
but that's not the issue here. In other words:
- Cold-boot your Amiga (gee, sounds kinky! :-)
- After you notice the drive has NOT been "mounted" (by SupraMount), reboot
leaving everything powerered up. In my startup-sequence I have an "echo"
followed by a "wait 2" which provides a convenient (and safe) point at
which to do the second boot; since I boot only once every several months
or so, this is not a big deal (the systems are operated continously).
- Notice the drive THIS time being properly mounted.
2) "someone" is setting the LUN (Local Unit Number) in software instead of the
SCSI ID. Don't laugh! I've seen one person doing this last year and
wondering why their drive didn't work.
Perhaps now is the time to briefly describe a SCSI bus. Consider the
following (rough) illustration of a fully-configured (and loaded!) bus:
Interface Devices whose LUNs are:
+----------++-----------+
| Your || SCSI host | SCSI +-----+ +---+ +---+
| Computer || Adaptor |==========::=|SID=6|-----| 0 |--- ... ---| 7 |
| (Amiga!) ||SID=7,LUN=0| BUS || +-----+ +---+ +---+
+----------++-----------+ ||
|| +-----+ +---+ +---+
::=|SID=5|-----| 0 |--- ... ---| 7 |
|| +-----+ +---+ +---+
where: ..
..
SID = SCSI ID [0..7] ..
LUN = Local Unit Number [0..7] || +-----+ +---+ +---+
::=|SID=0|-----| 0 |--- ... ---| 7 |
|| +-----+ +---+ +---+
||
-/\/\/\-
Bus Termination
Given the proper interface at each SCSI ID, one could place up to, say, 8
disk drives on it, and with 7 interfaces, one could have, say, 56 disk
drives on one's bus. This is what the SCSI bus and its specs permit.
In reality, however, a interface typically will be designed to operate only
one or two devices. For example:
a) An embedded-SCSI disk drive (such as Seagate ST138N, Maxtor XT3380S,
Quantum 80S, etc.) This is an integrated SCSI interface with disk
drive controller. The SID should be set to a unique value on the
bus, and the LUN is hard-coded to be zero (0).
b) A (multi) disk-drive adaptor/translator card (such as Adaptec 4000
and 5000 series, Omti, etc.). This is a stand-alone SCSI interface
card which is usually bolted by the end-user or system-integrator to
the back of a disk drive (for convenience) and will adapt a non-SCSI
disk drive (such as ST251, Maxtor XT1140 or XT2190, Miniscribe 6085,
etc.) to the SCSI bus; such cards usually have provision to handle
up to 2 drives whose LUNs will be 0 and 1 as determined by the
connector on the interface to which one plugs the drive's cabling.
c) Other embedded-SCSI devices, such as tape drives, laser printers,
modems, page scanners, etc. Such devices permit setting a unique
SCSI ID and will have a hardcoded LUN=0.
d) Other adapter cards (such as NCR, Fujitsu, etc.) designed to adapt
specific devices (such as floppy and/or tape drives, scanners, etc.)
to the SCSI bus; these cards permit setting a unique SCSI ID and
"may" provide multiple devices with LUNs ranging from 0 to 7.
e) "Host adapter" cards. Such cards are the interface between a
computer and the SCSI bus. One CAN have more than one "computer"
on the bus, each with its own SCSI ID. Typically the LUN is
hard-coded at zero.
In a full-SCSI, arbitrating [de]-select setup (which I have NOT seen yet for
the Amiga), the choice of a SCSI ID takes on additional meaning because it
will determine the device's PRIORITY. The highest SCSI ID, 7, will have the
highest priority on the bus. With such a setup, one would want to have the
host adapter at 7, the primary disk drive at 6, other devices at 5 thru 1,
and your tape backup system at SCSI ID 0. It is possible for devices whose
IDs are, say, 5 and 4 to be "talking" to one another and exchanging data
while the host is talking to, say, a tape drive at ID 0. Note that only ONE
Initiator-Target pair has its data on the bus at any given instant, though.
SCSI setups for the Amiga are (usually) non-arbitrating systems, and all
bus control is under direction of the host adaptor (and its software), so
the choice of SCSI ID isn't as important (except that all interfaces must
still have a unique ID! :-).
What all this is leading up to is that the address of a specfic device on
a SCSI bus is determined by the combined SCSI ID and LUN. A device will
only be selected and activated when it sees its "address" on the bus.
If, for some reason, one is attempting to address the typical embedded-SCSI
hard disk with a non-zero LUN, the drive will simply NOT respond. This is
the situation I saw with one person's setup last year, and it "may" be the
problem Doug is having.
3) Another set of potential problems concerns an improperly terminated SCSI bus,
miswired cabling, and/or mis- or non-use of the SCSI terminator power line
on the bus. SCSI bus wire 26 has been perverted by many manufacturers and
users, and others have "done" non-standard things with other "undefined" SCSI
bus wires.
In a previous posting, I've detailed the SCSI bus lines that one should be
SURE are not connected (improperly). I think this was also reprinted in one
of the Amiga-related magazines, but I haven't seen it.
In any event, among the mis-wiring offenders I've seen are included Supra,
Seagate, Apple, etc. And a lot of "Apple" 3rd party disk subsystem assembly
houses really screw the bus by having too long a "stub" off the bus (spec is
10cm MAX, and I've seen up to 40cm; sheesh!).
4) And a BIG problem with using Maxtor drives is the use of an inadequate
power supply. These mongo drives require tremendous startup-surge capability
AND very clean power during operation. Doug should look at both the +5 and
+12 VDC lines on a 'scope while powering-up and running the drive.
5) And a final suggestion/idea concerns the specific Supra host adapter. For
the A1000, there are TWO different 4x4 host adaptors; one has the dual 25-pin
connector, and the other has the DB-25 (a la Apple). The DB-25 unit is the
more recent, and I've noticed it has some minor circuitry changes (mostly
enhanced or more bypass capacitors, etc.). He should be calling Mark White
or Clark Stevens at Supra for help in this regards; Bill Seymour may also be
able to provide some assistance since he's been putting a lot of Maxtor
drives on Supra setups.
All the above should provide some clues as to where to look for problems. When
everything is assembled correctly, operation will be faultless. The SCSI busses
on my Amiga systems extend to the full 20 feet (6 m) permitted by the SCSI spec,
"talk" to 4 or 5 interfaces on each bus (which includes several Maxtors), and
are rock-solid and operated 24 hours/day, 7 days/week. There are ALL Amiga
A1000 systems using the Supra 4x4 Host Adaptor, and presently running Supra's
version 5.3 software. Hmmm, Clark Stevens promised to send me the Series II
software after DevCon, and I haven't received it yet ... :-(
The interfaces I've personally verified as operating fine on the Supra-based
SCSI busses on my systems include:
1) ALL embedded-SCSI drives I could get my hands on. This includes
Fujitsu, Seagate, Maxtor, Imprimis, Connor, Quantum, CAST, etc.
2) Adaptec interfaces/translators. This includes the 4000A and 4070 used
to operate Seagates, Maxtors, LaPines, Miniscribes, Microscience,
Micropolis, Priam, etc.
3) Fujitsu M10008A (for driving ESDI tape drives)
Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (07/14/89)
Thad, I had checked and rechecked everything, but it was NOT working. I was getting multiply mounted partitions on ONE HD. However, I am glad to report that I got ahold of Supra Software II and it is working just fine now. I have the Maxtor set at SCSI ID 1 and the NEW software can even detect this right away!! It selected SCSI ID 1, even before I formated the drive. So it appears to be working just fine. One thing that was 'weird'. With the new software you can select either 'skip' 'mount' 'boot' for EACH partition. I set the system up to just mount all partitions, and when it tried to mount the system. It told me that I HAD to have at least one partition set to the 'boot', even if I did not have the means to do 'autoboot'!! Seems kinda strange, huh? But what the hell, it is working great. And the new software is nice. - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
billsey@agora.UUCP (Bill Seymour) (07/18/89)
From article <20423@cup.portal.com:, by Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com:
: One thing that was 'weird'. With the new
: software you can select either 'skip' 'mount' 'boot' for EACH partition.
: I set the system up to just mount all partitions, and when it tried to
: mount the system. It told me that I HAD to have at least one partition set
: to the 'boot', even if I did not have the means to do 'autoboot'!! Seems kinda
: strange, huh? But what the hell, it is working great. And the new software is
: nice.
I believe that Clark is doing an 'Assign SYS:' to the partition set
as 'boot'... This makes it a little easier to build a generic Startup-Sequence
for all configurations. You only need to access SYS: for your assigns, instead
of knowing what drive you want to set your system to.
: - Doug -
:
: Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
--
-Bill Seymour ...tektronix!reed!percival!agora!billsey
...tektronix!sequent.UUCP!calvin!billsey
Bejed, Inc. NES, Inc. Northwest Amiga Group At Home Sometimes
(503) 691-2552 (503) 246-9311 (503) 656-7393 BBS (503) 640-0842