ugkamins@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Dr. R. Chandra) (08/05/89)
In all the stuff I've read recently on the copyright infringement suit brought by Apple against MicroSoft for Windows 2.03, I have to wonder: Why did Commodore-Amiga's Intuition interface not enter into the suit? Why did Tandy's DeskMate interface not enter into the suit? From what I read in gnu.misc.discuss, Intuition windows sound exactly like uSoft's Windows and Mac windows. DeskMate windows and dialog boxes, while not similar to me, seem to share many of the same graphic ideas (especially dialog boxes with all those buttons that can be "pressed"). So my basic question is: why leave these guys alone and only go after uSoft and HP??? --- We can only contemplate the facts as we are able to perceive them. Do we get what we deserve, or deserve what we get? "I've seen yellow STRIPES in the middle of the road before, kids, but, ah, never quite this WIDE!" -- Tom "T-bone" Stankus ugkamins@sunybcs.UUCP (UnderGraduate john i. KAMINSki) ps--I might add that I think that Intuition is better, but this is chiefly due to the fact that Commodore decided to go with a two-button mouse, and therefore simplify menu selection. I also didn't see (yet) mention of submenus, which Intuition has. pps--I hope Apple loses everything in the suit (personal opinion).
gmadison@pnet02.gryphon.com (George Madison) (08/07/89)
ugkamins@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Dr. R. Chandra) writes: >In all the stuff I've read recently on the copyright infringement suit >brought by Apple against MicroSoft for Windows 2.03, I have to wonder: > >Why did Commodore-Amiga's Intuition interface not enter into the suit? >Why did Tandy's DeskMate interface not enter into the suit? > >From what I read in gnu.misc.discuss, Intuition windows sound exactly >like uSoft's Windows and Mac windows. DeskMate windows and dialog >boxes, while not similar to me, seem to share many of the same graphic >ideas (especially dialog boxes with all those buttons that can be >"pressed"). > >So my basic question is: why leave these guys alone and only go after >uSoft and HP??? My favorite answer to this is simply that in the case of Intuition, Apple didn't want the world to know there was a powerful, inexpensive, COLOR 68000 machine on the market. A lawsuit against Intuition would have brought the Amiga a VAST amount of *FREE* publicity that Apple didn't want to give it. I suppose they just hoped the Amiga would quietly die and go away. Fortunately, they guessed wrong. If it had been widely known that the Amiga was available (with real multitasking, yet!) several years ago, the machine would undoubtedly be in an even stronger position than it is today. (Personally, I'm trying to scrounge up the bux for an A2000 with the GVP 68030/25MHz processor card... (Drool!)) |George Madison, a/k/a George The Bear Cub, a/k/a Furr ** BEAR POWER **| |gmadison@pnet02.gryphon.com 8-{)> ames!elroy!gryphon!pnet02!gmadison| |GEnie: GEORGE.M Arctophiles & Barbophiles Unite! PLink: BEARDLOVER| "...they send the Heart Police to put you under Cardiac Arrest..." -- from _Living In The Plastic Age_ by The Buggles
UH2@PSUVM.BITNET (Lee Sailer) (08/07/89)
In article <18548@gryphon.COM>, gmadison@pnet02.gryphon.com (George Madison) says: > >ugkamins@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Dr. R. Chandra) writes: >>In all the stuff I've read recently on the copyright infringement suit >>brought by Apple against MicroSoft for Windows 2.03, I have to wonder: >> >>Why did Commodore-Amiga's Intuition interface not enter into the suit? >>Why did Tandy's DeskMate interface not enter into the suit? >> > >My favorite answer to this is simply that in the case of Intuition, Apple >didn't want the world to know there was a powerful, inexpensive, COLOR 68000 >machine on the market. A lawsuit against Intuition would have brought the Could be some of that going on. More likely is that Intuition DOES NOT have the same look and feel as the Mac. Two buttons, different requestors, color, abilty to have an active window in back, screens, different methods of renaming objects... lee
mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) (08/09/89)
In article <9025@cs.Buffalo.EDU>, ugkamins@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Dr. R. Chandra) writes: > In all the stuff I've read recently on the copyright infringement suit > brought by Apple against MicroSoft for Windows 2.03, I have to wonder: > > Why did Commodore-Amiga's Intuition interface not enter into the suit? > Why did Tandy's DeskMate interface not enter into the suit? > > So my basic question is: why leave these guys alone and only go after > uSoft and HP??? > --- Probably because both C-A and Tandy sales together do not add up to uSoft sales. Why is HP in the fray? I'm not sure about that one! Perhaps Apple felt they were going to chase after the same market (which neither Tandy nor C-A are REALLY doing. You can rest assured that if they succeed, Tandy C-A and even sun (?) are next on the list. However, it's a matter of the investement. Since uSoft represents so much lost revenue for Apple, they feel justified in spending the dough to fight this battle. It's quite obvious that if they should win, everyone else (inclusing IBM with their PS/2) will be knocking on their door to hammer out the details of a "liscensing" agreement. -- Mark Vange Phone Death Threats to: Vanguard Distributing (416) 730-1352 mark@xrtll 8 Everingham Ct. North York "Every absurdity has a champion Ont, Canada M2M 2J5 to defend it." - Oliver Goldsmith
portuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) (08/10/89)
In article <341@xrtll.UUCP> mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) writes: > So my basic question is: why leave these guys alone and only go after > uSoft and HP??? > --- Probably because both C-A and Tandy sales together do not add up to uSoft sales. Why is HP in the fray? Because HP's New Wave package includes software technology (hot links between applications) that Apple doesn't have and is trying to put into System 7.0. It's quite obvious that if they should win, everyone else (inclusing IBM with their PS/2) will be knocking on their door to hammer out the details of a "liscensing" agreement. At this point, Apple doesn't look like they have overwhelming odds for victory, and much of the suit has been thrown out of court. So I don't think too many people are worrying about making "licensing" agreements with Apple. As an aside, my personal feeling about the issue is that Apple should have a right to copyright the audio-visual aspects of their system, such as the look of their scrollbars, the look and format of their windows, the Trashcan icon, and pull-down menus. I do not believe they have the right to copyright such broad concepts as overlapping windows, icons (even traffic signs use them), and menus. The tricky part is making the distinction between the cosmetic features which are part of the Apple interface (which they certainly have a right to protect) and the general concepts implemented in their interface, which should be public domain. One thing which does disturb me is that overlapping windows are still one of the issues up for debate, as it was one of the differences between Microsoft Windows 1.0 and 2.0. I've seen lots and lots of different windowing systems, and I can only recall two that offered support for tiled windows only (Windows 1.0 and the Andrew Window Manager). --M -- Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Inc. portuesi@SGI.COM
denbeste@bbn.com (Steven Den Beste) (08/10/89)
In article <341@xrtll.UUCP> mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) writes: >In article <9025@cs.Buffalo.EDU>, ugkamins@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Dr. R. Chandra) writes: >> Why did Commodore-Amiga's Intuition interface not enter into the suit? >> Why did Tandy's DeskMate interface not enter into the suit? >> >> So my basic question is: why leave these guys alone and only go after >> uSoft and HP??? >> --- >Probably because both C-A and Tandy sales together do not add up to uSoft >sales. Why is HP in the fray? I'm not sure about that one! HP is a strong enough company both technically and financially that it can pretty much break into any market it decides it wants, and take a substantial chunk of it. I spent 7 years at a company (Tektronix) which competed head-to-head with HP in almost every market it was in. The annual report once said words to the effect of "We are fortunate to have a competitor as good as HP." I always found HP to be an honorable competitor: They didn't steal from us, they just tried to build a better product than us. Who could ask for more? It brought out the best in us when we wondered "what those guys at HP are doing now?" (Of course, I suspect they used to think the same thing about us.) I suspect that Apple is really frightened of HP getting into this market. HP is quite capable and willing to lose money for five years to break in, and Apple shows no sign of being interested in honest competition in their engineering. If I were Apple, I'd be afraid of them, too. Steven C. Den Beste || denbeste@bbn.com (ARPA/CSNET) BBN Communications Corp. || {apple, usc, husc6, csd4.milw.wisc.edu, 150 Cambridge Park Dr. || gatech, oliveb, mit-eddie, Cambridge, MA 02140 || ulowell}!bbn.com!denbeste (USENET)
higgin@cbmvax.UUCP (Paul Higginbottom) (08/10/89)
In article <44087@bbn.COM> denbeste@BBN.COM (Steven Den Beste) writes:
$I suspect that Apple is really frightened of HP getting into this market. HP is
$quite capable and willing to lose money for five years to break in, and Apple
$shows no sign of being interested in honest competition in their engineering.
$If I were Apple, I'd be afraid of them, too.
I think I read in the book called "In Search of Excellence" that the author
believed that HP was a company that was likely to become a huge player
in the personal computer market.
Paul.nop@cup.portal.com (Randy G Jouett) (08/14/89)
Actually, I think that Apple will sue the crap out of Commodore if it steals any more of the market away from them. That is, I think they are saving the suit as an ace-in-the-hole that they will use as a fly swatter against Commodore if it flexes it's muscles any more then it has. I hope it never happens. Randy -- Randy Jouett sun!portal!cup.portal.com!nop | nop@cup.portal.com BIX: rjouett Amateur Radio: KB5YL (anyone want to trade calls? :).
stephen@hpdml93.HP.COM (Stephen Holmstead) (08/15/89)
Randy G Jouett writes: >Actually, I think that Apple will sue the crap out of Commodore if it >steals any more of the market away from them. That is, I think they are >saving the suit as an ace-in-the-hole that they will use as a fly swatter >against Commodore if it flexes it's muscles any more then it has. I hope >it never happens. WOW!! It has been a long time since I have seen that many cliches in one paragraph :-). There is even one pun (if you count that the 'ace' and the 'suit' are both references to a deck of cards) :-) :-) Translation for the cliche-impared readers: Apple will probably include Commodore in their "Look and Feel" suit if they think Commodore is a significant competitor. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Stephen Holmstead ...!hplabs!hpdmlge!stephen // Hewlett Packard Disk Memory Division \X/ Amiga Forever! "I remind you that humans are only a tiny minority in this galaxy." -- Spock, "The Apple," stardate 3715.6.
gmadison@pnet02.gryphon.com (George Madison) (08/15/89)
nop@cup.portal.com (Randy G Jouett) writes: >Actually, I think that Apple will sue the crap out of Commodore if it >steals any more of the market away from them. That is, I think they are >saving the suit as an ace-in-the-hole that they will use as a fly swatter >against Commodore if it flexes it's muscles any more then it has. I hope >it never happens. > If Apple tries it, it will probably be laughed out of court. The court will ask, "Why didn't you file this suit THREE YEARS AGO??" and probably not much more will happen. There was a case recently where Intel lost some rights to NEC because they didn't file a suit for an extended period of time after discovering the "problem". If you don't protect your rights, you lose them. Personally, I think that Apple suing people left and right over GUI's is insane, and I hope they lose every case, and get punitive damages slapped on them besides. ALL this work is based on the Xerox Star, to one degree or another. It is true that Apple put a lot of work into the Mac, but that doesn't mean that someone else can't come up with a workable, efficient GUI without ripping them off. It seems like Apple wants to own the ENTIRE CONCEPT of a GUI, not just the Mac System/Finder/&c. |George Madison, a/k/a George The Bear Cub, a/k/a Furr ** BEAR POWER **| |gmadison@pnet02.gryphon.com 8-{)> ames!elroy!gryphon!pnet02!gmadison| |GEnie: GEORGE.M Arctophiles & Barbophiles Unite! PLink: BEARDLOVER| "...they send the Heart Police to put you under Cardiac Arrest..." -- from _Living In The Plastic Age_ by The Buggles
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (08/15/89)
In article <21262@cup.portal.com> nop@cup.portal.com (Randy G Jouett) writes: >Actually, I think that Apple will sue the crap out of Commodore if it >steals any more of the market away from them. That is, I think they are >saving the suit as an ace-in-the-hole that they will use as a fly swatter >against Commodore if it flexes it's muscles any more then it has. I hope >it never happens. Me too. I know this is off the subject of Amiga, so I'll keep it short. I think I know why Apple is suing HP about the user interface... Someone mentioned that Apple wants to add hot links to there new OS, and that HP already has them. Well, If apple wins, then HP can't use their User interface and Apple can go ahead and not have any competition. If HP wins then there is no Issue of LOOK and FEEL, and HP can't sue them for using the hot links. Apple wins both ways. Sneaky little devils aren't they :-) -- John Sparks | {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps ||||||||||||||| sparks@corpane.UUCP | 502/968-5401 thru -5406 I want to live forever or die in the attempt.
phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti) (08/15/89)
In article <18852@gryphon.COM> gmadison@pnet02.gryphon.com (George Madison) writes: >nop@cup.portal.com (Randy G Jouett) writes: >>Actually, I think that Apple will sue the crap out of Commodore if it >>steals any more of the market away from them... >If Apple tries it, it will probably be laughed out of court. The court will >ask, "Why didn't you file this suit THREE YEARS AGO??" and probably not much >more will happen. There was a case recently where Intel lost some rights to >NEC because they didn't file a suit for an extended period of time after >discovering the "problem". If you don't protect your rights, you lose them. Absolutely. There have been other cases as well like this. I asked a law student I know about this and she agreed that Apple has pretty much lost its ability to sue Amiga successfully. >Personally, I think that Apple suing people left and right over GUI's is >insane, and I hope they lose every case, and get punitive damages slapped on >them besides. ALL this work is based on the Xerox Star, to one degree or >another. It is true that Apple put a lot of work into the Mac, but that >doesn't mean that someone else can't come up with a workable, efficient GUI >without ripping them off. It seems like Apple wants to own the ENTIRE CONCEPT >of a GUI, not just the Mac System/Finder/&c. I also hope that Apple gets plastered. The ramifications of the "look and feel" lawsuits are astoundingly monopolistic. Let's say that Ford decided to go after the "look and feel" of an automobile dashboard, or pedal arrangement. That'd be a lot of fun today, no? I also understand that Microsoft is copywriting subroutine names - can anybody confirm or deny this? I'd find this to be most annoying, since you can't copywrite the literary analog - a chapter or book title. (Yes, you too can be the writer of _Gone with the Wind_. :-) ) Interestingly enough, I talked to a person with Apple about this sort of thing and he indicated that to be best of his knowledge, Apple has no intention of suing Amiga regardless of how big Amiga gets, for a couple of reasons. First, the four year lag (1985-1989) in taking action virtually eliminates anything they'd be able to do. Secondly, the Amiga user interface is so different than the Macintosh's that there's not much in the way of grounds for a lawsuit. His way of putting it was, paraphrased; 'Apple likes having other graphic interfaces around because it helps validate the concept. However, we don't want them to look like ours. The Amiga's doesn't.' Take that as you will, of course. - R'ykandar. -- | "Signature V1.2.1.2..." | phoenix@ms.uky.edu | phoenix@ukma.bitnet | | "Got enough addresses, bub?" | CIS 72406,370 | PLink: Skywise | | "Alms! Alms! Laser printers for the poor!" | QLink: Bearclaw |
ain@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Pat-bob White) (08/15/89)
In article <12416@s.ms.uky.edu> phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti) writes: > I also hope that Apple gets plastered. The ramifications of the "look and >feel" lawsuits are astoundingly monopolistic. I'm just waiting for Apple to sue NeXT over look & feel :-) sorry, had to :-) Pat White ARPA/UUCP: j.cc.purdue.edu!ain BITNET: PATWHITE@PURCCVM PHONE: (317) 743-8421 U.S. Mail: 320 Brown St. apt. 406, West Lafayette, IN 47906 Life is a joke.. so laugh at it :-)