sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (07/18/89)
I'll believe Minix for the Amiga when I see it. At least three different people said they would have it Real Soon Now. Real Soon being last year. The people that claimed they were working on it could do us all a favor and simply not say anything till they're ready to release a beta. -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean *** Copyright 1989 by Sean Casey. Only non-profit redistribution permitted. *** ``I'm a state machine with no state!''
shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) (07/18/89)
In article <12195@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >I'll believe Minix for the Amiga when I see it. At least three >different people said they would have it Real Soon Now. Real Soon >being last year. There's been work done on it. >The people that claimed they were working on it could do us all a favor >and simply not say anything till they're ready to release a beta. They've kept remarkably quiet. It's everyone ELSE clamoring about it. They are, I believe, approximately at a beta test stage, but whether it will actually be released publicly, I don't know. (doubt it.) It seems no publishers are interested in marketing it, either. No telling what will happen. [How about it, guys? Just release Amiga/Minix free and post it to comp.sources/binaries.amiga?] Deven -- Deven T. Corzine Internet: deven@rpi.edu, shadow@pawl.rpi.edu Snail: 2214 12th Street, Troy, NY 12180 Phone: (518) 271-0750 Bitnet: deven@rpitsmts, userfxb6@rpitsmts UUCP: uunet!rpi!deven Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible.
ast@cs.vu.nl (Andy Tanenbaum) (07/18/89)
In article <12195@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >The people that claimed they were working on it could do us all a favor >and simply not say anything till they're ready to release a beta. I don't see any advantage to answering the many queries of the form: "Is anybody working on MINIX for the Amiga" with "I'm sorry. It is a secret. I can't tell you." I have never promised a deliver date. I am not even promising one now. In fact, I am not even guaranteeing that we will even find a publisher for it. I am simply providing information for people who want to know how far we are. I do not see any redeeming social virtue in your proposal at all, except perhaps that of reducing the network load by 1 part in about a million. MINIX for the Amiga is definitely not vaporware. It is undergoing beta testing now. Andy Tanenbaum (ast@cs.vu.nl)
jk0@image.soe.clarkson.edu (Jason Coughlin) (07/18/89)
I think it's obvious that people would like to see Minix run on the Amiga regardless of whether or not a publisher will accept it. If you can't find a publisher, why not put the diffs for the Amiga version on bugs or some other reliable ftp server. That way people would have to BUY Minix, but could still run it on the Amiga hardware. The problems are that (a) the diffs produced so far have been, shall we say, unreliable :-) (b) what "standard" Minix would the diffs be produced against, and (c) the Minix user would have to have the hardware to transfer Minix from one distribution to the Amiga. As far as (c) goes, big deal. Amiga Minix isn't published software (yet) so if you have to kludge to get it, you have to kludge to get it. Kludging is better than nothing at all! :-) -- -- -- Jason Coughlin ( jk0@sun.soe.clarkson.edu , jk0@clutx )
david@ms.uky.edu (Dan Chaney) (07/19/89)
I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga
the native OS is nice enough, as is, to either do everything needed
or is easily extended with off-the-shelf software. (either PD or otherwise).
The only thing it doesn't do is support other users. Big deal, it's
a single user machine as far as I'm concerned.
Question: *WHY* do you want to have Minix on the amiga??
--
<- David Herron; an MMDF guy <david@ms.uky.edu>
<- ska: David le casse\*' {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<-
<- WARNING: Hunting season is now open in West Virginia!hjg@amms4.UUCP (Harry Gross) (07/20/89)
In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) writes: >I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga > >the native OS is nice enough, as is, to either do everything needed >or is easily extended with off-the-shelf software. (either PD or otherwise). > >The only thing it doesn't do is support other users. Big deal, it's >a single user machine as far as I'm concerned. > >Question: *WHY* do you want to have Minix on the amiga?? Remember, although MINIX is evolving in the direction of _something big_ :-), its primary mission in life is as a TEACHING TOOL. Specifically, so that students who are studying operating systems will have the source code for a system that they can hack on, change, and try things out on. Granted, it is not NECESSARY to port MINIX to the Amiga, but for those students who have one, (and nothing else :-(? ) it is quite useful. Please remember, too, that multi-tasking is a very nice feature to have even on a single-user workstation. (Hence the push to create such abominations as the Presentation Manager under OS/2 :-). -- Harry Gross | reserved for | something really Internet: hjg@amms4.UUCP (we're working on registering)| clever - any UUCP: {jyacc, rna, bklyncis}!amms4!hjg | suggestions?
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (07/20/89)
In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu>, david@ms.uky.edu (Dan Chaney) writes: > I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga In article <175@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu.edu> (Darrell Schiebel) flames back: >Obviously You See No Worth in Education. ... Apart from the argument that the first statement doesn't imply the conclusion in the second statement, may I clarify this a bit? One of the particularly nice things about the Amiga is that, for the most part, it can be replaced in pieces from the ground up. This is primarily due to the original developers who were scrupulously careful to call all libraries through their entry points rather than back doors in the ROM. This means that persons desiring to learn about operating system fundamentals may do so without having to first write a complete operating system. Rather, they can concentrate on different areas and measure their improvements against an existing standard. For example, suppose you wanted to learn about efficient ways of performing memory allocation and deallocation. You could, on the Amiga, write your own memory allocater and "plug this in" to the systems memory allocation and deallocation routines. Then run a few programs and gather statistics and check to see how yours does compared to someone elses. Say you wanted to learn about filesystems. The Amiga presents and excellent opportunity, with the 1.3 release you need only provide a file system handler that understands the basic AmigaDOS packets, and voila a laboratory for studying layouts, clustering, buddy systems etc. The same it true for semaphores, scheduling, device drivers, etc. So the benefits of MINIX are that you get the source to a simple multitasking operating system that you can look at and replace pieces in if you chose that method for learning. The exact same thing can be said for AmigaDOS with the exception that you don't have the source to the core operating system, only those areas you have changed in it. Contrast that to MINIX on MS-DOS systems or to a lesser extent the Atari ST. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"
hans@nlgvax.UUCP (Hans Zuidam) (07/20/89)
>In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu>, david@ms.uky.edu (Dan Chaney) writes: >> I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga >In article <175@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu.edu> (Darrell Schiebel) flames back: >>Obviously You See No Worth in Education. ... cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: >One of the particularly nice things about the Amiga is that, for the most >part, it can be replaced in pieces from the ground up. This is primarily >due to the original developers who were scrupulously careful to call all >libraries through their entry points rather than back doors in the ROM. How true. This is indeed probably why there still isn't a Minix implementation on the Amiga. It is also worth noticing that (almost) every discussion about Minix on the Amiga boils down to the advantages of having an MMU on the Amiga (no, I don't want to start such a discussion again please ;-) ). Hans -- Hans Zuidam E-Mail: hans@pcg.philips.nl Philips Telecommunications and Data Systems, Tel: +31 40 892288 Project Centre Geldrop, Building XR Willem Alexanderlaan 7B, 5664 AN Geldrop The Netherlands
paone@aramis.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) (07/20/89)
Why would you want it? Outside of the fact that it is another OS and it is UNIX-like, you get the full source code. It is not made to replace the natural multi-tasking for your day to day uses, but to teach you about how a real OS is put together. In some ways it is better then UNIX with a source license, since it is very clean code. So, unless you already have your Master's in OS design, there is something to learn. -- Phil Paone attmail!ppaone !rutgers.edu!topaz.edu!ppaone paone@topaz.rutgers.edu "Dinna ya know a jailbreak when ya see it?"
shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) (07/20/89)
On 20 Jul 89 10:55:40 GMT, paone@aramis.rutgers.edu (Phil Paone) said: paone> Why would you want it? Outside of the fact that it is another paone> OS and it is UNIX-like, you get the full source code. It is paone> not made to replace the natural multi-tasking for your day to paone> day uses, but to teach you about how a real OS is put together. paone> In some ways it is better then UNIX with a source license, paone> since it is very clean code. Even putting the educational possibilities, I would prefer a Unix environment on the Amiga over the AmigaDOS one. However, I would NOT like to have to lock out AmigaDOS to do so. That's my project. :-) Deven -- Deven T. Corzine Internet: deven@rpi.edu, shadow@pawl.rpi.edu Snail: 2214 12th Street, Troy, NY 12180 Phone: (518) 271-0750 Bitnet: deven@rpitsmts, userfxb6@rpitsmts UUCP: uunet!rpi!deven Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible.
shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) (07/20/89)
On 20 Jul 89 07:49:32 GMT, hans@nlgvax.UUCP (Hans Zuidam) said: hans> In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu>, david@ms.uky.edu (Dan Chaney) writes: david> I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga hans> In article <175@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu.edu> (Darrell Schiebel) flames back: Darrell> Obviously You See No Worth in Education. ... hans> cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: cncmanis> One of the particularly nice things about the Amiga is that, cncmanis> for the most part, it can be replaced in pieces from the cncmanis> ground up. This is primarily due to the original developers cncmanis> who were scrupulously careful to call all libraries through cncmanis> their entry points rather than back doors in the ROM. And then a different set of people wrote AmigaDOS, taking the opposite approach. (i.e. encourage braindamage) hans> How true. This is indeed probably why there still isn't a Minix hans> implementation on the Amiga. It is also worth noticing that hans> (almost) every discussion about Minix on the Amiga boils down to hans> the advantages of having an MMU on the Amiga (no, I don't want hans> to start such a discussion again please ;-) ). The Minix implementation on the Amiga does not use Exec or any part of the Amiga operating system. It takes over the machine at all levels. It can't use the existing device drivers, for example, because Exec must be running. Exec would make a good base for a Unix-like "OS" but not from an educational aspect, which is why they decided not to use it... can't play with scheduling algorithyms and whatnot. So it rujns standalone. You gain Atari/Minix 100.0% disk compatibility, but lose your Amiga for the duration. Deven -- Deven T. Corzine Internet: deven@rpi.edu, shadow@pawl.rpi.edu Snail: 2214 12th Street, Troy, NY 12180 Phone: (518) 271-0750 Bitnet: deven@rpitsmts, userfxb6@rpitsmts UUCP: uunet!rpi!deven Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible.
andrew@aucis.UUCP (Andrew Gillham) (07/21/89)
In article <594@amms4.UUCP>, hjg@amms4.UUCP (Harry Gross) writes: >Please remember, too, that multi-tasking is a very nice feature to have even on > a single-user workstation. (Hence the push to create such abominations as the > Presentation Manager under OS/2 :-). That's funny, I thought my Amiga WAS multi-tasking? :) > Harry Gross | reserved for > | something really > Internet: hjg@amms4.UUCP (we're working on registering)| clever - any > UUCP: {jyacc, rna, bklyncis}!amms4!hjg | suggestions? -Andrew -- Andrew Gillham | andrew%aucis.uucp@mailgw.cc.umich.edu or Andrews University | sharkey!aucis!andrew or uunet!zds-ux!aucis!andrew Signature? Who said I could write?
ajy2208%ritcv@cs.rit.edu (07/22/89)
In article <175@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu.edu> drs@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu (Darrell Schiebel) writes: >In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu>, david@ms.uky.edu (Dan Chaney) writes: >> I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga >> >> the native OS is nice enough, as is, to either do everything needed >> or is easily extended with off-the-shelf software. (either PD or otherwise). >> >> The only thing it doesn't do is support other users. Big deal, it's >> a single user machine as far as I'm concerned. > >Obviously You See No Worth in Education. Minix and Other such Operating >Systems are Valuable if for Absolutely No Other Reason then the Fact that >They Provides the Source for a Well Written OS, thus Providing an Excellent >Example, and the Ability to Tinker with the OS. I agree with you also. Although I plan on getting an ST soon, I would still like to see Minix come out for other computers (such as the Amiga). I will not be buying Minix to replace TOS, but rather as a learning tool. Well, since I use UNIX at work everyday, I will probably use Minix as much as I use TOS! It's not often you run into a documented operating system that'll run on your computer! (especially if it's one you like!) >Darrell Schiebel __________________________________________________________________________ Albert Yarusso | ajy2208@ritvax.bitnet Rochester Institute of Tech. | {rutgers, ames}!rochester!ritcv!ajy2208 Computer Science | ajy2208@ritcv.cs.rit.edu
douglee@becker.UUCP (Doug Lee) (07/24/89)
In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) writes: >Question: *WHY* do you want to have Minix on the amiga?? Answer: *BECAUSE* it comes with source and a textbook which will enable the reader to learn how a multitasking O/S works. AmigaDOS internals are a deep dark secret for the most part, although it is the best for a *USER* <<<Doug>>> douglee@becker >-- ><- David Herron; an MMDF guy <david@ms.uky.edu> ><- ska: David le casse\*' {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET ><- ><- WARNING: Hunting season is now open in West Virginia!
benton@VAX1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Kevin Benton) (07/31/89)
In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) writes: >I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga > >the native OS is nice enough, as is, to either do everything needed >or is easily extended with off-the-shelf software. (either PD or otherwise). > I'll agree with you that AmigaDOS is half way decent for the user interface, although from a programmer's standpoint, the operating system itself is about the buggiest thing I have ever seen. When my Amiga crashes CLI's for no apparent reason, I would tend to think there must be something better out there, especially since Minix comes with SOURCE CODE!!!! > >The only thing it doesn't do is support other users. Big deal, it's >a single user machine as far as I'm concerned. > >Question: *WHY* do you want to have Minix on the amiga?? I don't know if you have ever used Unix before, but there's a lot more for Unix than just Multiple Users... (not to mention 2000 times more pd software, interprocess communication, etc.) >-- ><- David Herron; an MMDF guy <david@ms.uky.edu> ><- ska: David le casse\*' {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET ><- ><- WARNING: Hunting season is now open in West Virginia! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hmm, I wonder if he's complaining about guns? Let's see now... He could be commenting about...................... --- kevin@sarah.lerc.nasa.gov KB8HNJ All expressed opinions are not necessarily that of my employer, my dog, or even my own...
lofaso@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Bernie Lofaso) (08/01/89)
In article <195@VAX1.CC.UAKRON.EDU>, benton@VAX1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Kevin Benton) writes: > I'll agree with you that AmigaDOS is half way decent for the user > interface, although from a programmer's standpoint, the operating > system itself is about the buggiest thing I have ever seen. When my > Amiga crashes CLI's for no apparent reason, I would tend to think > there must be something better out there, especially since Minix comes > with SOURCE CODE!!!! > I have a very difficult time with the part about "the buggiest thing I have ever seen". This is simply hog wash. AmigaDOS is no more buggy than most other operating systems. My guess is that Mr. Benton may be running much PD software which, as one might expect, does not live up to more rigorous programming standards that some of us might expect. There are several issues, which Mr. Benson's message alludes to, as have others posted on the net, which nobody seems to have addressed. How many people who have OS source (to Minix or anything else) would actually do anything with it? While there are plenty of good programmers who might could do something with it, would they have the time or care? The number of those who would are statistically insignificant compared to the number of those who wouldn't know what to do with the code. Typically systems of this magnitude are either incomprehesible or trivial. Why do you want Minix (Unix, etc.) on your Amiga? I suspect many people voice a desire because it's extremely popular and they are used to it. Excellent reasons, but are you also used to the system administration headaches that can come along with it? (Since only a C= Unix would ever become popular, when you add devices to Minix, etc. guess who gets to write the device drivers. :-) There are also other disadvantages to Unix-like systems. I've not seen one yet that had decent real-time response. Well, some are decent, but the response of AmigaDos is in my opinion superior. There is also a more elegance of design to the AmigaDos system. (That might be good for a few flames.) I wouldn't want to do without the ASSIGN command and logical volumes in general. I could go on. > > I don't know if you have ever used Unix before, but there's a lot more > for Unix than just Multiple Users... (not to mention 2000 times more > pd software, interprocess communication, etc.) > Now you've hit the nail on the head... it's not that you're in love with Unix's process communications (which incidently aren't as good as AmigaDos except on newer systems like SunOS), but it's the utilities! Life is not worth living if I can come in early in the morning and grep a few files to start my day. With make, diff, awk, etc. etc. etc. life is so much easier. But, since most of these have been ported to the Amiga, including some impressive user shells to replace the CLI (don't like CLI... only dirty three letter word I know), what's the advantage? I think that if people consider arguments like these, there would be much less desire to run Unix on the Amiga. (Did I also mention disk and memory requirements for Unix. Hardware vendors love it I'm sure.)
drs@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu (Darrell Schiebel) (08/16/89)
In article <12212@s.ms.uky.edu>, david@ms.uky.edu (Dan Chaney) writes: > I personally don't see any need for Minix on an amiga > > the native OS is nice enough, as is, to either do everything needed > or is easily extended with off-the-shelf software. (either PD or otherwise). > > The only thing it doesn't do is support other users. Big deal, it's > a single user machine as far as I'm concerned. Obviously You See No Worth in Education. Minix and Other such Operating Systems are Valuable if for Absolutely No Other Reason then the Fact that They Provides the Source for a Well Written OS, thus Providing an Excellent Example, and the Ability to Tinker with the OS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell Schiebel _ _ _ __ __ drs@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu | \ /\ |_) |_) |_ | | (_ Concurrent Engineering Center |_/ /--\ | \ | \ |__ |__ |__ __) :: West Virginia University -------------------------------------------------------------------------