gmd@pulsar.UUCP (George MacDonald) (08/11/89)
> *sigh* Here I go again. Geesh what a lot to respond too, I'll cut it down to just a couple of points > Kevin> I'll agree with you that AmigaDOS is half way decent for the > Kevin> user interface, although from a programmer's standpoint, the > Kevin> operating system itself is about the buggiest thing I have ever > Kevin> seen. When my Amiga crashes CLI's for no apparent reason, I > Kevin> would tend to think there must be something better out there, > Kevin> especially since Minix comes with SOURCE CODE!!!! Get Real!! My amiga runs for days/weeks on end without crashing. In some ways it's been more reliable than my sun's at work with their new major OS release 4.0/4.0.1/4.0.2/4.0.3 ...... It's not the OS that's causing your problems. I run all sorts of stuff i.e. DCRON/AmigaUUCP/pyro/backdrop/wicon/mclk/ virusx/ all the time!! Then I run a lot of the following doing all sorts of business things - Word processing, Accounting, mail, logging into various sites .... Directory of Work:c 14compress AmigaCron Anews Anews-SetUp Brun Compress Detab Entab ErrorLOG From GPrint Head IconImage Mail Man More New_Mail New_News OnePlane Play8SVX Pnews-E Pnews-M PostNews Pyro ReadMsg Rmail Rnews RunBack SetFont Shar ShowFont TSnip Tail Tee Trunc UUCP UUhosts UUlog UnBatcher UnShar ViewILBM VirusX arc backdrop booz calls csh dcron file files flow fold fts ispell less lpr mclk news_filter.sh newzap nro prnro profile qcat qt smush stevie strings subj.bak subj.sh tar tek uls unbatchfc ushow uuCICO uuDECODE uuENCODE uuNAME uuPOLL uuX uuXQT vi vt100 warp wc whatcpu whereis wicon xicon zoo Most of these are very reliable public domain programs that make life on the Amiga a joy!!! > First, I think AmigaDOS's UI sucks. But that depends to a degree on > what you're used to. I'm used to Unix, and I find AmigaDOS annoying > and clumsy, and often frustratingly limiting. What a load of absolute drivel!! AmigaDOS is not that much different than unix sh, CLI is even better in some way's. More natural history than csh/ksh and more consistent arguments than the multitude of unix programs. If you miss *.?[0-9]funky.stuff then get the csh for the amiga. I use it all the time now, it's reliable and I don't have to think about which machine I'm on. What IS poor is the BCPL shit showing up in the programming interface. ^ | Your point is well taken, your language is not!! Read NETTIQUETE AGAIN!! >I don't see that Minix/Unix on an Amiga need be any more of a headache >for system maintenance and administration than AmigaDOS itself is. >Yes, Unix is multiuser, but that doesn't need to complicate things >much. Managing an AmigaDOS system well can be a lot of work as well. >[unless you LIKE using only the stock configuration...] Having just repaired my hard drive on the amiga and debugging a new disk installation on some sun systems I would say the amiga is A LOT easier to deal with!! It is much better at fixing the file system, diskdoctor is easier to use than fsck/fsdb. > Bernie> There are also other disadvantages to Unix-like systems. I've > Bernie> not seen one yet that had decent real-time response. > And how often do you run across Unix systems without MMUs? Virtual > memory can slow a system way down. (So much easier on the Amiga, it > just crashes.) Real-time Unix systems DO exist. Most are not. The > Amiga Exec OS achieves excellent response by not supporting VM, > message-passing by reference, strict task prioritizing and other such > little tricks. They can work nicely and attain impressive speed and > response time, but there ARE clear drawbacks. ^ | You really mean good design decisions and clear tradeoffs. No system can give you everything, the amiga operating system gives perhaps the best single user co-operative multitasking system available today. Virtual Memory and protected systems are only really required in multi-user systems when one needs protection from other users. I am willing to trade the advantage of VM on MY machine to achieve maximum response. The Amiga has done a very good job at this, my 2500 FEELS very fast and very smooth. I never run out of memory an IF the machine crashes I know instantly who caused it, ME not some one else hacking on a device driver. > The responsiveness of Exec is excellent. AmigaDOS isn't always so > hot. Consider directory scans, a VERY common operation, which is > slow as all hell. [and don't bother to mention FFS -- it's > backpatching to make the file system what it should've been to begin > with.] There is still room to improve FFS, perhaps caching the file names in a fname block list. This would provide a quick dir at the exspense of more work when adding/deleting files/dirs. Also the disk can be packed more efficently, without messing with the basic model of file system structure. And FFS is not THAT different than the original file system. > Bernie> There is also a more elegance of design to the AmigaDos > Bernie> system. > AmigaDOS? More elegant than Unix? Don't make me laugh. The model of devices being dynamically loaded entities is just NOW being added to unix as is shared libaries and er um windows. Each OS has some winning "features" and each has some things not to be proud of. > Bernie> but it's the utilities! Finally a meaningful comment!! But then spoiled by foul language again!! > Bernie> Life is not worth living if I can't come in early in the morning > Bernie> and grep a few files to start my day. With make, diff, awk, > Bernie> etc. etc. etc. life is so much easier. Oh you mean like the make, diff, egrep, sed, tee, ... on MY amiga Of course I just need to click on that cute little box in the upper right and pop up my vt100 window which automatically logged into the Sun just as I got up. Geesh and I haven't even finished eating breakfast yet!!! > Yes. See you knew I was right 8-). Go ahead, make myday -- /\ George MacDonald, Pulsar Software Inc. - Unix Software Consultants _____/ \ _____ ..{harvard,decvax}!zinn!pulsar!gmd or gmd@pulsar.mv.com \ / \/ 36 Hickory Ln, Windham, N.H. 03087 Tel (603)-434-2614
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (08/12/89)
In <SHADOW.89Aug13055924@pawl.rpi.edu>, shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) writes: >George> Oh you mean like the make, diff, egrep, sed, tee, ... on MY >George> amiga Of course I just need to click on that cute little box >George> in the upper right and pop up my vt100 window which >George> automatically logged into the Sun just as I got up. Geesh and >George> I haven't even finished eating breakfast yet!!! > >Great, that proves nothing. So you can use your Amiga as a terminal >to a Unix machine and get all those wonderful utilities. That doesn't >give you that functionality ON THE AMIGA. Well, I have those utilities on my Amiga as well. Just because George doesn't, don't assume that they aren't there. The one slight exception is that 'sed' is called 'see' (put out by Rick Schaeffer), but the exception is in name only. -larry -- "So what the hell are we going to do with a Sun?" - Darlene Phillips - +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) (08/13/89)
On 11 Aug 89 05:57:09 GMT, gmd@pulsar.UUCP (George MacDonald) said: Deven> *sigh* Here I go again. George> Geesh what a lot to respond too, I'll cut it down to just a George> couple of points You're a bit late responding. I thought this thread was dead. Kevin> I'll agree with you that AmigaDOS is half way decent for the Kevin> user interface, although from a programmer's standpoint, the Kevin> operating system itself is about the buggiest thing I have ever Kevin> seen. When my Amiga crashes CLI's for no apparent reason, I Kevin> would tend to think there must be something better out there, Kevin> especially since Minix comes with SOURCE CODE!!!! George> Get Real!! My amiga runs for days/weeks on end without George> crashing. In some ways it's been more reliable than my sun's George> at work with their new major OS release 4.0/4.0.1/4.0.2/4.0.3 George> ...... It's not the OS that's causing your problems. George> I run all sorts of stuff i.e. DCRON/AmigaUUCP/pyro/backdrop/ George> wicon/mclk/virusx all the time!! George> Then I run a lot of the following doing all sorts of business George> things - Word processing, Accounting, mail, logging into George> various sites .... George> Directory of Work:c [who cares?] George> Most of these are very reliable public domain programs that George> make life on the Amiga a joy!!! Not always so reliable. Maybe you've been lucky. Deven> First, I think AmigaDOS's UI sucks. But that depends to a Deven> degree on what you're used to. I'm used to Unix, and I find Deven> AmigaDOS annoying and clumsy, and often frustratingly limiting. George> What a load of absolute drivel!! AmigaDOS is not that much George> different than unix sh, CLI is even better in some way's. Get a clue. The AmigaDOS CLI is worthless. It does virtually nothing. The Bourne shell is a language in its own right. The CLI isn't even a scripting language, much as you may think it is. ALL commands are external to the CLI, including script commands like if, else, endif, _endcli_ and even simple commands like echo. The stock Amiga CLI simply doesn't compare to Unix sh, csh, ksh, tcsh, or just about any other Unix shell you might run across. George> More natural history than csh/ksh and more consistent George> arguments than the multitude of unix programs. Csh has history substitution, ksh has history editing. The Amiga CLI has neither. AmigaShell does add reasonable (if slightly buggy) history editing and aliases, which makes it almost reasonable. But that's not the CLI. George> If you miss *.?[0-9]funky.stuff then get the csh for the George> amiga. That's not the point. The point was that the AmigaDOS _CLI_ was poor, along with the command names and syntax. The fact that there's csh clones (somewhat limited when compared to the real C-Shell, but far far superior to the AmigaDOS CLI) doesn't change my opinion that the AmigaDOS UI sucks. George> I use it all the time now, it's reliable and I don't have to George> think about which machine I'm on. If you don't notice a difference between Dillon's (et al) csh and the real csh, then you're using a small subset of its features. Deven> What IS poor is the BCPL shit showing up in the programming Deven> interface. George> Your point is well taken, your language is not!! Read George> NETTIQUETE AGAIN!! It's known as *emphasis*... or can't you understand that? Deven> I don't see that Minix/Unix on an Amiga need be any more of a Deven> headache for system maintenance and administration than Deven> AmigaDOS itself is. Yes, Unix is multiuser, but that doesn't Deven> need to complicate things much. Managing an AmigaDOS system Deven> well can be a lot of work as well. [unless you LIKE using only Deven> the stock configuration...] George> Having just repaired my hard drive on the amiga and debugging George> a new disk installation on some sun systems I would say the George> amiga is A LOT easier to deal with!! It is much better at George> fixing the file system, diskdoctor is easier to use than George> fsck/fsdb. Try paying attention to what I say once in a while. I wasn't saying most Unix systems aren't more complicated than AmigaDOS. I was saying that a Unix implementation for the Amiga doesn't _need_ to be so complicated. I have proposed writing something similar to Unix V7, which is MUCH simpler than SysV or BSD systems nowadays. A Unix-like system on the Amiga could well be written to fix the filesystem far better than AmigaDOS does, as well. Bernie> There are also other disadvantages to Unix-like systems. I've Bernie> not seen one yet that had decent real-time response. Deven> And how often do you run across Unix systems without MMUs? Deven> Virtual memory can slow a system way down. (So much easier on Deven> the Amiga, it just crashes.) Real-time Unix systems DO exist. Deven> Most are not. The Amiga Exec OS achieves excellent response by Deven> not supporting VM, message-passing by reference, strict task Deven> prioritizing and other such little tricks. They can work Deven> nicely and attain impressive speed and response time, but there Deven> ARE clear drawbacks. [specifically, demand-paged VM] George> You really mean good design decisions and clear tradeoffs. I stated that there are advantages and drawbacks. Whether they are good design decisions or not is context-dependent. George> No system can give you everything, the amiga operating system George> gives perhaps the best single user co-operative multitasking George> system available today. Virtual Memory and protected systems George> are only really required in multi-user systems when one needs George> protection from other users. No, when you need protection from YOURSELF. If a process crashes, on the Amiga, it can trash all sorts of stuff before the system catches it and brings down the machine along with everything else running. A memory-protected system will continue running happily. Memory protection is not an outgrowth of paranoia. George> I am willing to trade the advantage of VM on MY machine to George> achieve maximum response. Memory protection and vitrual memory are separate issues. Memory protection involves little performance overhead. George> The Amiga has done a very good job at this, my 2500 FEELS very George> fast and very smooth. I never run out of memory an IF the George> machine crashes I know instantly who caused it, ME not some George> one else hacking on a device driver. Yeah, well try asking someone on a one FLOPPY drive system with 512K or even 1Meg of ram who wants to run a dozen things at once. And you often don't know what task caused a crash. Who cares who ran it? It's a single user system; of course you ran it. Deven> The responsiveness of Exec is excellent. AmigaDOS isn't always Deven> so hot. Consider directory scans, a VERY common operation, Deven> which is slow as all hell. [and don't bother to mention FFS -- Deven> it's backpatching to make the file system what it should've Deven> been to begin with.] George> There is still room to improve FFS, perhaps caching the file George> names in a fname block list. This would provide a quick dir at George> the exspense of more work when adding/deleting files/dirs. George> Also the disk can be packed more efficently, without messing George> with the basic model of file system structure. And FFS is not George> THAT different than the original file system. Yes, FFS *is* THAT different from the old file system. And the old file system is what I was referring to. It is an abomination. Bernie> There is also a more elegance of design to the AmigaDos Bernie> system. Deven> AmigaDOS? More elegant than Unix? Don't make me laugh. George> The model of devices being dynamically loaded entities is just George> NOW being added to unix as is shared libaries and er um George> windows. Each OS has some winning "features" and each has some George> things not to be proud of. The shared libraries are solely a feature of Exec, for which AmigaDOS can not take credit. (It doesn't even *cooperate* with the shared library design. Ever try to SetFunction dos.library??) Dynamically loaded devices is of the few things AmigaDOS does well. (volume handling and assigned devices being others.) But Unix provided an excellent model for a number of things (such as pipes) which AmigaDOS ignores. Bernie> but it's the utilities! George> Finally a meaningful comment!! But then spoiled by foul George> language again!! You seem be really hung up on language. Don't take it out on the net. [and try to keep it straight who says what.] Bernie> Life is not worth living if I can't come in early in the Bernie> morning and grep a few files to start my day. With make, Bernie> diff, awk, etc. etc. etc. life is so much easier. George> Oh you mean like the make, diff, egrep, sed, tee, ... on MY George> amiga Of course I just need to click on that cute little box George> in the upper right and pop up my vt100 window which George> automatically logged into the Sun just as I got up. Geesh and George> I haven't even finished eating breakfast yet!!! Great, that proves nothing. So you can use your Amiga as a terminal to a Unix machine and get all those wonderful utilities. That doesn't give you that functionality ON THE AMIGA. Deven> Yes. George> See you knew I was right 8-). Wow, clever. George> Go ahead, make myday Go ahead... make my sandwich. Deven -- Deven T. Corzine Internet: deven@rpi.edu, shadow@pawl.rpi.edu Snail: 2214 12th Street, Troy, NY 12180 Phone: (518) 271-0750 Bitnet: deven@rpitsmts, userfxb6@rpitsmts UUCP: uunet!rpi!deven Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible.
nop@cup.portal.com (Randy G Jouett) (08/14/89)
Deven, I think I can speak for the entire net by saying that it isn't that we don't agree with many of your well thought comments; rather, it's the frame of mind and emphasis that you project in a hostile manor. In the short time that I have been on this earth I have learned at least one important rule: if you want people to listen to what you have to say, then do it in a mild tone, soft voice. That is, don't SHOUT; it is an in-built nature to take shouting as a hostile action. Also, rather than saying "THIS IS THE WAY IT IS -- PERIOD!", try turning your statement into a question. Not only will increase the discussion, it will also give the person at the other end a chance to think about what you are saying and flater him at the same time (e.g., your asking for his advice). I know that there is a real intelligent mind behind those postings that you make, Deven. Hopefully, you will try this suggestion and learn from it. BTW, I ignored the above information for about 2-3 years after my father handed it over to me :). Aren't dad's great!? P.S. This is not a "hey -- this is the way it is, idiot!" type of posting, and I sure as heck hope it doesn't come out that way. I would have e-mailed this, but I think that good info like this should be shared. Type at ya' later, Randy -- Randy Jouett sun!portal!cup.portal.com!nop | nop@cup.portal.com BIX: rjouett Amateur Radio: KB5YL.
shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) (08/15/89)
On 14 Aug 89 04:43:07 GMT, nop@cup.portal.com (Randy G Jouett) said: Randy> I think I can speak for the entire net by saying that it isn't Randy> that we don't agree with many of your well thought comments; Randy> rather, it's the frame of mind and emphasis that you project in Randy> a hostile manor. Glad to meet you, Mr. Net. No, it's only bad when I end up posting in the middle of the night when I haven't had enough sleep... or when I see people posting stupid things... and especially both! *sigh* Randy> In the short time that I have been on this earth I have Randy> learned at least one important rule: if you want people to Randy> listen to what you have to say, then do it in a mild tone, soft Randy> voice. That is, don't SHOUT; it is an in-built nature to take Randy> shouting as a hostile action. Also, rather than saying "THIS IS Randy> THE WAY IT IS -- PERIOD!", try turning your statement into a Randy> question. Not only will increase the discussion, it will also Randy> give the person at the other end a chance to think about what Randy> you are saying and flater him at the same time (e.g., your Randy> asking for his advice). Actually, I'm much more diplomatic in person than I must seem on the net. And, I don't shout. But I will say what's on my mind. Randy> I know that there is a real intelligent mind behind those Randy> postings that you make, Deven. Hopefully, you will try this Randy> suggestion and learn from it. BTW, I ignored the above Randy> information for about 2-3 years after my father handed it over Randy> to me :). Aren't dad's great!? Ah, but would you think it might work? ;-) Randy> P.S. This is not a "hey -- this is the way it is, idiot!" type Randy> of posting, and I sure as heck hope it doesn't come out that Randy> way. I would have e-mailed this, but I think that good info Randy> like this should be shared. Well, hey! That's the way it is, idiot! :-) Randy> Type at ya' later, Oh, save me. Deven -- Deven T. Corzine Internet: deven@rpi.edu, shadow@pawl.rpi.edu Snail: 2214 12th Street, Troy, NY 12180 Phone: (518) 271-0750 Bitnet: deven@rpitsmts, userfxb6@rpitsmts UUCP: uunet!rpi!deven Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible.
andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) (08/16/89)
In article <SHADOW.89Aug13055924@pawl.rpi.edu> shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) writes:
Well, I was hoping the thread would fizzle as the title suggests, but...
Comparing the 1.2 release of the Amiga OS in order to make points
is kind of, ummm, silly ? Yes, that's the word I was looking for,
especially since 1.3 has been out for quite awhile. So using the
CLI and old filesystem, to name but two instances, while rejecting
the existance of the shell and FastFileSystem for the purposes
of argument does not win any points. For all purposes the standard
CLI *is* the shell. And the standard filesystem for hard disks
is the FastFileSystem. A module does not have to be in rom to
be a standard.
(BTW, the shell having a limited set of internal functions is a
rather moot point. Through the use of the Resident command,
a large number of functions can be added to the Shell. When
a program is added to the shell via Resident, it is added in
a global manner; each Shell has access to the function)
This is assuming, of course, that there's any point to the argument
at all....
andy
--
andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy
Commodore-Amiga, Inc.
The Law of Software Envelopment
Every program at MIT attempts to expand until it can read mail.
Those programs which cannot expand are replaced by ones which can.
Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.shadow@pawl.rpi.edu (Deven T. Corzine) (08/18/89)
On 15 Aug 89 21:42:47 GMT, andy@cbmvax.UUCP (Andy Finkel) said: Andy> Well, I was hoping the thread would fizzle as the title Andy> suggests, but... *sigh* sooner or later. Andy> Comparing the 1.2 release of the Amiga OS in order to make Andy> points is kind of, ummm, silly ? Yes, that's the word I was Andy> looking for, especially since 1.3 has been out for quite awhile. 1.3 has been out for awhile, but it doesn't address many of the concerns. Admittedly, AmigaShell is pretty much the "stock" text interface to AmigaDOS, so AmigaDOS deserves credit for input history editing, at least. Andy> So using the CLI and old filesystem, to name but two instances, Andy> while rejecting the existance of the shell and FastFileSystem Andy> for the purposes of argument does not win any points. The AmigaShell you can count. FastFileSystem you cannot. FFS is nice, and fixes many of the worst problems with the OFS, but it leaves floppy users out in the cold. Until it's the default on ALL drives, (in 1.4, presumably) you can't count it. Andy> For all purposes the standard CLI *is* the shell. Accepted. Andy> And the standard filesystem for hard disks is the Andy> FastFileSystem. For *hard* disks. You shouldn't ignore floppy users. Andy> A module does not have to be in rom to be a standard. Never claimed or implied so. Andy> (BTW, the shell having a limited set of internal functions is a Andy> rather moot point. Through the use of the Resident command, a Andy> large number of functions can be added to the Shell. When a Andy> program is added to the shell via Resident, it is added in a Andy> global manner; each Shell has access to the function) Granted, the Resident command is a valuable tool for extending the shell. However, it still doesn't give you variables, command substitution, command piping, file globbing and other such built-in functions Unix shells give you. Andy> This is assuming, of course, that there's any point to the Andy> argument at all.... Not all too much. Why do you think I was hoping this thread died? Deven -- Deven T. Corzine Internet: deven@rpi.edu, shadow@pawl.rpi.edu Snail: 2214 12th Street, Troy, NY 12180 Phone: (518) 271-0750 Bitnet: deven@rpitsmts, userfxb6@rpitsmts UUCP: uunet!rpi!deven Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible.