frankd@pro-pac.cts.com (Mike Snook) (08/17/89)
It's a shame that developers don't get their fair rewards for their time and money. I want my software written by professionals, which means they have to be able to make a living at it. Too many people are pirating software. It's also a shame that you can't change human nature. If you offer most people a chance to steal something at virtually no risk of getting caught, they'll find some way to see it as "not stealing". The HonorWare market will never catch up with the Pirate market because of human nature. Hollywood knows they can't stop people from making pirate copies of their movies, too. there are differences in the analogy, a Big Screen presentation can't be matched by anything in the home, a copied tape isn't as good as the original, neither of these things are true of pirated software, but my point is that movies get pirated anyway and Hollywood, instead of playing on peoples' "Honor" to pay for shareware, or asking their producers to make public domain movies, has implemented marketing strategies that give them a piece of the action. Hollywood makes big bucks farming their movies out to HBO, Cinemax, etc., not to mention the video rental stores. They know darn well that most folks are going to make illegal copies of movies from these sources but they get what they can out of it. I'm sure they'd love it if people would pay $79.95 for every movie they 'd like to own. They know they can't, so they take what they can get. Why don't software developers adopt a similar strategy by selling programs to stores that will rent them out for a fraction of their purchase price, and take a royalty from every rental? Developers would make more money (possibly, I haven't the time to make a federal study of it) and the general population has an opportunity to obtain software WITH the manuals. There will of course always be that elite group who will have no less than the original with the original packaging either because of elitism or natural honesty. strictly opinion, strictly mine, go ahead and sue me I have no Money.
andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) (08/17/89)
In article <208@crash.cts.com>, frankd@pro-pac.cts.com (Mike Snook) writes: > It's a shame that developers don't get their fair rewards for their time and > money. I want my software written by professionals, which means they have to > be able to make a living at it. Too many people are pirating software. > [...] > Why don't software developers adopt a similar strategy by selling programs > to stores that will rent them out for a fraction of their purchase price, and > take a royalty from every rental? Developers would make more money (possibly, > I haven't the time to make a federal study of it) and the general population > has an opportunity to obtain software WITH the manuals. There will of course > always be that elite group who will have no less than the original with the > original packaging either because of elitism or natural honesty. > > strictly opinion, strictly mine, go ahead and sue me I have no Money. Another approach has been adopted by the Computer Club Company. All software has an encoded, unique, serial number which is tracked by sale and updated (if sold through a store) when the registration card arrives. There is NO copy protection. The serial number is so the company knows who to sue if a pirated copy is found. Two encoding strategies are used, one for the serial number which is displayed at run-time, one for the (several) copies embedded in the code which are not directly accessed as data. They are encoded to make it more difficult to find (and alter or remove) them. NO SOFTWARE IS SOLD FOR MORE THAN $20. No matter how fancy. The two software products currently (Nancy, a spelling checker and Zelda, a print/merge utility) are both $16.95. Costs are kept low by using inexpensive (minimal) packaging and putting all documentation on disk. The theory here is that reasonably priced software wont be stolen, it will be purchased. So far this strategy seems to have worked. I know this for a fact. It's my family business. It is my opinion that any 'single disk' software product sold WITH printed documentation for more than $35 is price-gouging. An added $5 per extra disk is reasonable. I don't care how "useful" the product is or how much effort went into producing it, if it is a good product, you will profit at these prices. For complicated products which require some customer support, I believe the buyer should be given a small amount of free support, followed up by paid support if they desire it ($35-40/hr is good). Just my personal/business opinion. ;-) Please no flames... (a quick plug: The Computer Club Company is giving away a free -$10 value- Computer Club Foam Bat with each software purchase - for a limited time) The Computer Club Company EMail address (on USENet) is ...uunet!cos!amicc!ComputerClub ARS. -- - Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA -- andrews@cos.com - {uunet, sundc, decuac}!cos!andrews -- Everything I write blame on me, NOT -- my employer. - "Adventure is when you toss your life on the scales of -- chance and wait for the pointer to stop." - M. Leinster (First Contact)
kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (08/17/89)
In article <21585@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: In article <208@crash.cts.com>, frankd@pro-pac.cts.com (Mike Snook) writes: > Another approach has been adopted by the Computer Club Company. All > software has an encoded, unique, serial number which is tracked by > sale and updated (if sold through a store) when the registration > card arrives. There is NO copy protection. The serial number is so > the company knows who to sue if a pirated copy is found. Two > encoding strategies are used, one for the serial number which is > displayed at run-time, one for the (several) copies embedded in the > code which are not directly accessed as data. They are encoded to > make it more difficult to find (and alter or remove) them. Not to pop your balloon or anything, since I think you sound like the ultimate in honest businessmen, but it's been tried with Gods-know-how-many programs before on different systems..... if you are shipping product to retail sources, and someone buys that product and doesn't send in the registration card (I rarely do), then the only thing you'll know is that someone who bought it from Random Store Inc. pirated it. However.... > NO SOFTWARE IS SOLD FOR MORE THAN $20. No matter how fancy. The > two software products currently (Nancy, a spelling checker and > Zelda, a print/merge utility) are both $16.95. Costs are kept low > by using inexpensive (minimal) packaging and putting all > documentation on disk. The theory here is that reasonably priced > software wont be stolen, it will be purchased. So far this strategy > seems to have worked. While your packaging and method of documentation make your program a prime candidate for piracy, I can't imagine doing so. A productivity package (especially something like a spellchecker) for $17 is just too reasonable. Do you make a decent profit? If I were ever to become a developer, that is very close to my own strategy..... besides the fact that fewer people would tend to pirate a BBS that cost twenty bucks, it would help to undercut the bozos who charge $150 for a piece of crap. (Are you listening, PP&S?) > It is my opinion that any 'single disk' software product sold WITH > printed documentation for more than $35 is price-gouging. An added > $5 per extra disk is reasonable. I don't care how "useful" the > product is or how much effort went into producing it, if it is a > good product, you will profit at these prices. For complicated > products which require some customer support, I believe the buyer > should be given a small amount of free support, followed up by paid > support if they desire it ($35-40/hr is good). That's what some of the big companies do even if you *did* pay $500 for the program. Hell, I know software consultants who charge $2000 for a customized software package and then go and charge $70 an hour for service and support over the phone, even.... At any rate, I can see where someone who spends $100,000 on R&D might feel justified in charging a hundred bucks per program, of which they'd take in twenty bucks or whatever. However, I can't understand why anyone would spend that much on R&D for something thousands of people have programmed before (wordprocessors, spreadsheets, BBSes, even art programs). If you spent 50,000 man-hours on it, there's obviously something wrong.... (disclaimer: I'm talking one software package here, not, like, an OS or something) I applaud you. I'm glad to see someone else has realized that there's a middle ground between iffy shareware and overzealous pricing. -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Un-PC quote: Piracy is amoral; pirates who 2346 15th St. \\ /// stop because they write code are hypocrites. Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush
pfaff@mercury.asd.contel.com (Ray Pfaff - Oakwood 457 934-8162) (08/18/89)
Mike Snook writes: > Hollywood knows they can't stop people from making pirate copies of their >movies, too. there are differences in the analogy, a Big Screen presentation >can't be matched by anything in the home, a copied tape isn't as good as the >original, neither of these things are true of pirated software, ... I've avoided commenting on this string for a long time, since it is really a matter of the morality of the people involved with pirating, but why would you think that a pirated program without documentation or registration is just as good as if it were bought with these things?
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (08/18/89)
In article <208@crash.cts.com>, frankd@pro-pac.cts.com (Mike Snook) writes:
: Why don't software developers adopt a similar strategy by selling programs
: to stores that will rent them out for a fraction of their purchase price, and
: take a royalty from every rental? Developers would make more money (possibly,
: I haven't the time to make a federal study of it) and the general population
: has an opportunity to obtain software WITH the manuals. There will of course
: always be that elite group who will have no less than the original with the
: original packaging either because of elitism or natural honesty.
:
You sure have my vote! This is really a great idea. However I'm afriad
that it would take the whole industry behind it to make it work. I'd
be more than happy to rent my programs out at say $1 a day!
Wayne Knapp andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) (08/18/89)
> Another approach has been adopted by the Computer Club Company. > All software has an encoded, unique, serial number which is tracked by sale and > updated (if sold through a store) when the registration card arrives. There > is NO copy protection. The serial number is so the company knows who to sue if > a pirated copy is found. Two encoding strategies are used, one for the serial number which is [...] > Please no flames... > (a quick plug: The Computer Club Company is giving away a free -$10 value- Computer > Club Foam Bat with each software purchase - for a limited time) > The Computer Club Company EMail address (on USENet) is ...uunet!cos!amicc!ComputerClub OOPS... I forgot to mention: The Computer Club Company also offers a free copy of each of its software products and publications to any individual providing information which leads to a conviction for piracy of any of its products. (This policy has proven to be quite successful at curbing software piracy.) -- - Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA -- andrews@cos.com - {uunet, sundc, decuac}!cos!andrews -- Everything I write blame on me, NOT -- my employer. - "Adventure is when you toss your life on the scales of -- chance and wait for the pointer to stop." - M. Leinster (First Contact)
mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) (08/19/89)
In article <21585@cos.com>, andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: > Another approach has been adopted by the Computer Club Company. > All software has an encoded, unique, serial number which is tracked by sale and > updated (if sold through a store) when the registration card arrives. There > is NO copy protection. The serial number is so the company knows who to sue if > a pirated copy is found. ... If someone is going to pirate the stuff, they will simply buy it from a store and NOT send in the registration card! > NO SOFTWARE IS SOLD FOR MORE THAN $20. No matter how fancy. The two software > products currently (Nancy, a spelling checker and Zelda, a print/merge utility) Correct me if I'm wrong - and I don't mean to belittle your work - but there are widely different documentation and support requirements between different types of software. 'small' utilities can certainly be created and marketed for much less than Word Processors or Games, but, if the product were 'marketted' to it's full potential, you would be heaving much higher costs. I'd like to see how your approach works when your product line expands from supporting software to applications. -- Mark Vange Phone Death Threats to: PAS Systems - "Plain and Simple" (416) 730-1352 mark@xrtll 8 Everingham Ct. North York "Every absurdity has a champion Ont, Canada M2M 2J5 to defend it." - Oliver Goldsmith
jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (08/21/89)
In article <345@xrtll.UUCP>, mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) writes: > In article <21585@cos.com>, andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: >> NO SOFTWARE IS SOLD FOR MORE THAN $20. No matter how fancy. The two software >> products currently (Nancy, a spelling checker and Zelda, a print/merge utility) > Correct me if I'm wrong - and I don't mean to belittle your work - but there > are widely different documentation and support requirements between > different types of software. 'small' utilities can certainly be created and > marketed for much less than Word Processors or Games, but, if the product > were 'marketted' to it's full potential, you would be heaving much higher > costs. I'd like to see how your approach works when your product line > expands from supporting software to applications. > -- > Mark Vange Phone Death Threats to: I think this whole discussion was not complaining about the high price of word processors, but about paying 50 bucks for a GAME which requires as little support from the company as anything does, and about getting a lousy game when your 50 bucks have been laid out. -- James A. Treworgy jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu jtreworgy%eagle@WESLEYAN.BITNET
brianr@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Brian Rhodefer) (08/22/89)
In article <345@xrtll.UUCP> mark@xrtll.UUCP (Mark Vange) writes: > >If someone is going to pirate the stuff, they will simply buy it from a >store and NOT send in the registration card! > Would it be possible to prevent this behavior by requiring the purchaser to register in order to receive instructions for patching his program to "enable" it? These patches would be unique, and different for each copy of the program. If purchased from a dealer, the "patching" could be done at the time of sale. The dealer could pop the distribution disk in his demo machine, equipped with a modem. A short program included on the distribution disk contacts SlickSoftware corporate headquarters, and receives and installs the one-time-only patch for that particular copy of the software. Corporate HQ's computer then duly notes that that particular serial numbered copy of the program has been delivered to its legal owner. Perhaps it even solicits the name/address/phone number of that new legal owner right then&there. The purchaser tests the "enabled" software for proper functionality, and, if satisfied, takes it home. The dealer has the purchaser's ID on file, (as well as, possibly, his signature on a liscencing agreement) gainst the possibility that pirated copies of that serial number attract the attention of the publisher. This has probably been thought of before, and discarded, but I don't remember seeing it discussed. Brian Rhodefer
ain@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Pat-bob White) (08/22/89)
In article <4704@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> brianr@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Brian Rhodefer) writes: >>If someone is going to pirate the stuff, they will simply buy it from a >>store and NOT send in the registration card! > >Would it be possible to prevent this behavior by requiring the purchaser >to register in order to receive instructions for patching his program to >"enable" it? These patches would be unique, and different for each copy >of the program. Only stops a pirate from stealing the program from the store -- dosen't stop them from buying it and giving away copies. If you put a serial number in each copy, how are you going to actually get your money for the pirated copies -- take every pirate to court for $30? Try to take the initial pirate to court? And how about the person whose friends pirate his copy.. is it his fault or not? Somehow, I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually devise a way to *recover* lost income due to piracy -- and that is really what software developers are worried about anyway, isn't it? (wouldn't a developer be delighted at not having to cover duplication costs and hassles, but still get their money?) Perhaps a better approach would be to assume copying and work out a way to get money for the copies (like let people sell copies provided they send the developer $5 for each copy sold). just my opinion... I think :-) Pat White ARPA/UUCP: j.cc.purdue.edu!ain BITNET: PATWHITE@PURCCVM PHONE: (317) 743-8421 U.S. Mail: 320 Brown St. apt. 406, West Lafayette, IN 47906 Life is a joke.. so laugh at it :-)
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/23/89)
Well gee, why not cut distributors and dealers out of the loop completely ?
Only sell direct, then you have the name, address, and phone number of
everyone that bought your program. You can immediately identify pirates,
and if someone says they bought it from someone else, then you can call
up that person and verify it right? Absolute and total control of your
user base. Don't expect very high volumes though...
Just another end of the spectrum of choices,
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"dc@dcpc.UUCP (Don Curtis) (08/23/89)
In <122978@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> Chuck McManis says: >Well gee, why not cut distributors and dealers out of the loop completely ? >Only sell direct, then you have the name, address, and phone number of >everyone that bought your program. You can immediately identify pirates, >and if someone says they bought it from someone else, then you can call >up that person and verify it right? Absolute and total control of your >user base. Don't expect very high volumes though... >Just another end of the spectrum of choices, That wouldn't help in any case, either would serializing disks, enforcing registration at point of sale, keeping lists of what distributors got which disks, etc. In order to prosecute someone for theft, you have to prove that Joe Average User, who is the registered owner of disk #12345 made, or permitted to be made a copy of his disk. Simply proving that an illegal copy had serial #12345 does not prove that Joe Average User made the copy. Any of the following could have occured, all of which would leave Joe off the hook: 1. Joe could have sold the software to Billy Bluebeard and Billy caused the illegal distribution. Under most current software license agreements, it's perfectly legal for Joe to have sold the software to Billy. 2. Unknown to Joe, a friend (Bobby Bandit) may have made a copy of Joe's disk while visiting. Bobby then posted the software on a thieves BBS. 3. The dealer/distributor or an employee of the publisher may have made an illegal copy before Joe ever got the software. 4. Ben BadGuy may have found the location of the serial number in another copy of the software and changed it (and any code that checked it) to 12345 and then distributed that changed copy. 5. Etc...any other set of similar circumstances where Joe had nothing to do with the illegal distribution of the software. The only way to prosecute Joe would be to catch him in the act of illegaly distributing the software. If he had a BBS with the software posted, fine. If you could prove he posted the software to a BBS, fine. If you obtained a copy of the software from him, fine. But simply finding an illegal copy with serial #12345 is insufficient. -- /* ** Don Curtis ....boulder!tcr!dcpc!dc ** CompuServe 76703,4321 ** 76703.4321@compuserve.com */