DOUGLAS.GOUTY......................@f270.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (DOUGLAS GOUTY ) (08/07/89)
First to clear up alittle misinformation.
-The estimated cost of the project is $500.00(not $600.00) for the
board and chip kit.
-Greg Tibbs is NOT the president of the O.V.A.U.G, but is an officer
of a Dayton area user's group.
Just had lunch with Greg Tibbs Sat. after our AmiCON meeting and had
a lengthy discussion about the project and look at the board. The board
is well designed and well grounded with no jumpers on the board. It is
all sockets and very little soldering(if any) is necessary. The
rejuvenator is connected to the motherboard with some of the existing
connections and with custom connectors from the Custom Chip sockets on
the motherboard(all the custom chips are moved up to the rejuvenator
board). The project should be fairly easy to install for anyone who has
had their Amiga opened. It will be a snap tougether project, pulling
and inserting chips pushing the connectors into the motherboard. Their
may be some jumpers to connect to the motherboard(at most 3) to select
your configuration. NO modifications need be done to the mother board
except perhaps the connection of the jumpers.
Benefits:
+1 Meg of CHIP ram.
+Total memory expanded by up to 1meg.(less if you choose to keep
kickstart on disk).(total for 512 Ami now 1.5 with KS rom use)
+Space for standard a2000/500 KS rom on board(use optional)
Kickstart source(disk or rom) may be selected by switch(small
modification to Rejuvenator board necessary).
+Standard A2000/500 battery backed clock
+Connector for A2000 Flicker Fixer card
+Sockets Dennese and Paula on board
+Socket for fatter Agnus on board
The Project is well thought out, allowing for the use of the entire
expected 1.4 upgrade including the productivity mode with the use of the
new Dennese and a Flicker Fixer card with multi-sync monitor.
Three prototypes have been built and are working. Their seems to be a
small problem with the kickstart rom but Greg expects to get it worked
out as soon as he gets some more Pal chips.
No ordering information is available at this time but should be
comming
across soon.
>>Douglas<<
>The views expressed are not necessarly those
of anyone, including myself, my employer or
The Amiga Central Ohio Network
--
DOUGLAS GOUTY via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!270!DOUGLAS.GOUTY......................
INET: DOUGLAS.GOUTY......................@f270.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORGdannys@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Daniel Shurilla) (08/09/89)
What will be the availability of the schematics for this project? I'm sure that many A1000 owners are hardware literate enough to wire wrap a suitable board and get it to work. It may not be pretty but for adventuresome technicians our A1000's could be FAT (AGNES) CITY! dannys@csd4.milw.wisc.edu
ejkst@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu (Eric J. Kennedy) (08/10/89)
In article <18566.24DF49E1@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> DOUGLAS.GOUTY......................@f270.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (DOUGLAS GOUTY ) writes:
[Lots of nice things about the Rejuvenator]
Now, the $64K question (that probably no one can answer yet): How
reliable will this thing be with 3rd party SOTS add-ons? I have no
desire to drop $600 on a rejuvenator, only to find that I can use 1 meg
of chip ram *or* my hard drive... Remember the problems with LUCAS and
expansion hardware?
--
Eric Kennedy
ejkst@cisunx.UUCPsean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (08/11/89)
DOUGLAS.GOUTY......................@f270.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (DOUGLAS GOUTY ) writes:
[tells about an upgrade project to allow the 1000 to use the new custom
chips for the 2000]
You know I made several queries to Commodore about using the new chips in
an A-1000. The replies I got said it was "impossible". I said "hey what if
I desolder some chips and do a little dirty work". "Still impossible."
As time goes on, the more dissapointed I become with Commodore-Amiga. Either
they really don't know their machines, or they really just don't care about
us A1000 owners.
Sigh.
--
*** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean
*** Copyright 1989 by Sean Casey. Only non-profit redistribution permitted.
*** ``I'm a state machine with no state!''tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) (08/12/89)
>What will be the availability of the schematics for this project? I'm >sure that many A1000 owners are hardware literate enough to wire wrap >a suitable board and get it to work. It may not be pretty but for >adventuresome technicians our A1000's could be FAT (AGNES) CITY! > Where should we email to find out the status of the A1000 Rejuvinator??? Hehehe - while Im at it Ill put this baby in a tower case!!! **************************************************************************** * " Salad isn't food, salad is what food eats. " The Zen Monk ALF * * "My thoughts claim no responsibility for my body" * * * * UUCP: tron1@tronsbox.UUCP uunet!mimsy!oddjob!clout!ddsw1!tronsbox!tron1 * * * * Sysop, the Penthouse ]I[ BBS * * (201)759-8450 (201)759-8568 * ****************************************************************************
farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) (08/13/89)
In article <12400@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >You know I made several queries to Commodore about using the new chips in >an A-1000. The replies I got said it was "impossible". I said "hey what if >I desolder some chips and do a little dirty work". "Still impossible." > >As time goes on, the more dissapointed I become with Commodore-Amiga. Either >they really don't know their machines, or they really just don't care about >us A1000 owners. Two points: first, the Tibbs board only implements the Gordo Agnus, not the complete ECS - there is no indication that the new Denise will or will not work in a 1000. Second, I remember that debate, and what C/A said is that they would not be offering any such upgrade, as they felt that it would not be possible for them to offer an official upgrade with any hope of making it work reliably, be affordable, or be installable by either the dealer or the casual user without large risks of significant damage to the 1000 involved. As far as I can remember, nobody ever said that it was flat impossible. Such a statement would have been stupid - nothing is impossible, including hacking and slashing a 1000 motherboard until it is electrically identical to a 2000 motherboard. The pricing I've seen for the Tibbs board seems to me to be pretty good evidence that C/A was precisely correct in their evaluation of the situation. The Tibbs board doesn't turn a 1000 into a 2000 - it just provides a subset of the functionality of the 2000. And it does so at a price which makes the whole thing attractive only to those who would rather die than switch. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.usa
ggibeau@ucqais.uc.edu (George Gibeau) (08/14/89)
In article <3743@csd4.milw.wisc.edu>, dannys@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Daniel Shurilla) writes: > > What will be the availability of the schematics for this project? I'm > sure that many A1000 owners are hardware literate enough to wire wrap > a suitable board and get it to work. It may not be pretty but for > adventuresome technicians our A1000's could be FAT (AGNES) CITY! I doubt Greg will release schematics of project (ala LUCAS). He does not intend to release it as a kit or a do it yourself. Since delaers are not suppossed to sell new Agnes chips directly to customers (I know, not everyone that owns an Amiga is an idiot :-)), he wants to play by the rules. Regards, George -- During the last year, more people have seen Elvis than have seen Amiga ads, BUT - this is changing for the better ;-) ;-) ;-) UUCP: ucqais.uc.edu!ggibeau BBS: (513) 721-7977 GT NODE: 006/005 US Snail-Dept of Biology ML 06, University of Cincinnati, Ohio 45221
brianm@sco.COM (Brian Moffet) (08/15/89)
In article <12400@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: > >You know I made several queries to Commodore about using the new chips in >an A-1000. The replies I got said it was "impossible". I said "hey what if >I desolder some chips and do a little dirty work". "Still impossible." > >As time goes on, the more dissapointed I become with Commodore-Amiga. Either >they really don't know their machines, or they really just don't care about >us A1000 owners. Actually, the "problem" is much deeper than just not caring. Commodore Tech Support is probably in the same league as all other tech support orginizations when it comes to hardware or software. They cannot really tell you how to do something to your machine that might lead to the destruction of your machine. The main reason for this is the infamous law-suit which people have become so entranced with. Now, I agree that the "This will void your warantee" should take care of any problems. However, if someone were to present a case to the courts that can possibly prove that Commodore was negligent in the instructions they provided the customer with, then C-A will have to face a large court cost to defend themselves. For this reason, a large number of corporations are not even looking for information which might help owners if this information involves hardware or software hacking. They have to base their fixes on the least common denominator, even if you say that you are sufficiently talented to do the work. This is what public domain hacks are for :-) Just an observation of course... brian moffet -- Brian Moffet {uunet,decvax!microsoft,ucscc}!sco!brianm -or- ...sco!alar!brian "I was everything you wanted me to be. You were afraid, I was frightening." My fish and company have policies. I have opinions.
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/16/89)
In article <12400@s.ms.uky.edu> sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: >You know I made several queries to Commodore about using the new chips in >an A-1000. The replies I got said it was "impossible". I said "hey what if >I desolder some chips and do a little dirty work". "Still impossible." >As time goes on, the more dissapointed I become with Commodore-Amiga. Either >they really don't know their machines, or they really just don't care about >us A1000 owners. Sean, you shouldn't be so harsh on them. If you were CATS, and you had to deal with a *bunch* of A1000 owners who wanted to upgrade to the ECS chip set, and you knew what was involved (some serious digital design) then your best answer is "It isn't possible." Which really means "If you have to ask, you won't be able to do it." At the same time, they make all of the information an engineer would need to do such a project available. Schematics of the old system, schematics of the new system, pinouts of the chips etc. What it requires to "upgrade" the A1000 is essentially a new section of the motherboard, and anyone with enough design experience can design it, but if you ask the question "How do I upgrade?" then, whether or not you actually are a qualified designer, you cannot be distinguished from someone who can't change a chip without toasting it. If on the other hand you go ahead and get the obvious information such as the various schematics, and ask the question "How much driving current does the new Agnus have ? What's the clock skew between address setup and when the blitter actually latches the data on the bus? Can I use the page mode DRAMs in the WCS?" Then you will get serious answers about how to solve your problems. That is because your questions show that you have given it serious thought, and have even sketched out a preliminary design. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"
dougp@voodoo.ucsb.edu (08/16/89)
Could the Rejuvenator have been designed to use dual ported ram to allow both the 68000 and the custom chips simualtanious access to CHIP RAM? Or is there something in the way the custom chips work that would prevent this from working? This kind of design could make an A1000 faster than an A2000 :-)
dca@kesmai.COM (David C. Albrecht) (08/17/89)
In article <12400@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: > [tells about an upgrade project to allow the 1000 to use the new custom > chips for the 2000] > You know I made several queries to Commodore about using the new chips in > an A-1000. The replies I got said it was "impossible". I said "hey what if > I desolder some chips and do a little dirty work". "Still impossible." > As time goes on, the more dissapointed I become with Commodore-Amiga. Either > they really don't know their machines, or they really just don't care about > us A1000 owners. In many ways this is old news and it's getting to be a bit of a tiresome lament. If you wanted chip level compatiblity you should have sold off your 1000 and invested in a 500 long ago. The 2000 and 500 made a strong break with the past (for right or wrong) which screwed just about every interface in the machines the SOTS, the Zorro spec, the serial and parallel ports. They did maintain 100% software compatibility between the new machines and the 1000 which is better than many vendors have done. No reasonable corporate entity is going to advertise solutions which require you to rip apart your computer, solder boards, move chips, wire jumpers, etc. I'd be surprised if Commodore would sponser even swapping chips by anyone but dealer service. What kind of sense would it make for them to spend the effort working out a solution that including parts, dealer labor charges, etc. would probably cost more than a 500 possibly nearing the cost of a 2000, especially if you included the money you could get by selling your 1000 unmolested. That some hacker has managed to cobble up a way to sandwich the 2000 chip set into a 1000 is nice but hardly something appropriate for Commodore to be interested in. Remember that we are talking about a company that still isn't financially exactly a blue chip. Since the 1000 is pretty much compatible with a large wad of 500s out there I don't think you need fear obsolescence for a long time to come, the kickstart for instance will probably be supported for the forseeable future but, the new chip modes aren't part of the package that you can reasonably expect to be included. In all probability, Commodore is more interested in designing new products than investigating ways to modify old, no longer manufactured machines especially when the old ones still work perfectly well. Uncaring? Perhaps, but no more so than any other business entity where staying solvent and hopefully making a profit is after all the bottom line. David Albrecht
ggibeau@ucqais.uc.edu (George Gibeau) (08/17/89)
> Two points: first, the Tibbs board only implements the Gordo Agnus, not > the complete ECS - there is no indication that the new Denise will or will > not work in a 1000. > > The pricing I've seen for the Tibbs board seems to me to be pretty good > evidence that C/A was precisely correct in their evaluation of the > situation. The Tibbs board doesn't turn a 1000 into a 2000 - it just > provides a subset of the functionality of the 2000. And it does so at > a price which makes the whole thing attractive only to those who would > rather die than switch. As it stands now, Greg has ment the Rejuvinator card to be a COMPLETE replacement for the Amiga graphics sub-system - this includes the new 1-meg Agnus chip, the Paula chip gets moved, and also the new DEnise chip all goes on the board. The Denise chip should work in a stock 1000 but at limited graphics modes, BUT TIBBS BOARD WILL BE 100% ECS COMPATIBLE. And while the card does not turn a 1000 into a 2000, a lot of folks have no need to run a 2000 for what they do. I myself have a 1000 with 2 full-height drives as well as many hardware hacks on it, and it perfectly serves my needs. I also own 4 IBM's and do not therefore need the adaptability of the bridgecard, nor do I want to dump all the items I own for the 1000. I think the "rather die than switch" comment is a bit drastic - there may be (and probably is) other reasons than just stubborness involved, in fact there will be some options on Gregs board that will not be available on a 2000 (switchable ROM - Kickstart or ROM based - ie. 1.4 alpha disks can be tested before ROMs are out). Regards, George -- During the last year, more people have seen Elvis than have seen Amiga ads, BUT - this is changing for the better ;-) ;-) ;-) UUCP: ucqais.uc.edu!ggibeau BBS: (513) 721-7977 GT NODE: 006/005 US Snail-Dept of Biology ML 06, University of Cincinnati, Ohio 45221
douglee@becker.UUCP (Doug Lee) (08/17/89)
In article <1775@ucqais.uc.edu> ggibeau@ucqais.uc.edu (George Gibeau) writes: >In article <3743@csd4.milw.wisc.edu>, dannys@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Daniel Shurilla) writes: >> >> What will be the availability of the schematics for this project? I'm >> sure that many A1000 owners are hardware literate enough to wire wrap >> a suitable board and get it to work. It may not be pretty but for >> adventuresome technicians our A1000's could be FAT (AGNES) CITY! > >I doubt Greg will release schematics of project (ala LUCAS). He How is a buyer supposed to repair it when it breaks? As a hardware hacker and repair technician, I KNOW everything breaks sooner or later and have already gotten burned a couple of times by third-party suppliers not providing enough technical data to maintain stuff. I expect to have my machine long after most small companies have disappeared. Many of them have already and the machine hasn't even completed it's life cycle. >does not intend to release it as a kit or a do it yourself. Since >delaers are not suppossed to sell new Agnes chips directly to >customers (I know, not everyone that owns an Amiga is an idiot :-)), >he wants to play by the rules. ^^^^^ There aren't any rules against good documentation. Perhaps there should be rules against selling stuff without documentation. Apparently the radio business went through a similar pattern in the 1930's where manufacturers all sold undocumented stuff. Eventually they had to issue schematics so the things could be repaired. I hope we haven't reached such a state in our throw-away society that major computer peripherals/addons are considered disposable. Sorry to disrupt the net with a flame, but no-one else seems to have addressed this issue and it has been bugging me for a while. I also find the Agnus board interesting, but will only buy it if I can keep it for good <working>. I have pretty much decided against buying any more undocumented hardware for the machine as I don't want to have to reverse engineer it when it breaks or pay someone else to do what I can do myself, not to mention the problem of increasing down time from a few minutes to perhaps days or weeks. Just for interest, the last time my 1000 died, an 8520 chip died while I was on-line and I was able to fix it without even having to logoff the remote system. Total down time was about 10 minutes, most of it hunting for the replacement 8520. While I admit that hardware types are in the minority, they still need to know. Flame Off >Regards, > > George regards <<<Doug>>> > >-- >During the last year, more people have seen Elvis than have seen >Amiga ads, BUT - this is changing for the better ;-) ;-) ;-) Hopefully the Amiga lasts longer and has a happier demise than Elvis :-) -- Doug Lee douglee@becker 416-461-5357
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (08/18/89)
In <22000@louie.udel.EDU>, 451061%UOTTAWA.bitnet@ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca (Valentin Pepelea) writes: >dougp@voodoo.ucsb.edu writes in message <2215@hub.UUCP> > >> Could the Rejuvenator have been designed to use dual ported ram to allow >> both the 68000 and the custom chips simualtanious access to CHIP RAM? >> Or is there something in the way the custom chips work that would >> prevent this from working? > >Over here in Ottawa, we call dual ported ram, a block of memory which can >be accessed both through 16-bit and 32-bit buses. What you are talking about >is interleaved ram, so that you can access a small block of ram through one bus >while accessing another block through another bus. A little like CHIP and FAST >ram are. Only 16 and 32 bit buses? Poor Ottawans, stuck with such limited dual ported rams. Last I looked, it didn't matter whether it was a 1 or 128 bit bus. Dual ported ram is dual ported ram, period. Assumptions about what he is talking about based upon limited definitions are amusing, but not particularly relevant. -larry -- "So what the hell are we going to do with a Sun?" - Darlene Phillips - +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
ggibeau@ucqais.uc.edu (George Gibeau) (08/18/89)
In article <19075@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu>, ejkst@unix.cis.pittsburgh.edu (Eric J. Kennedy) writes: > [Lots of nice things about the Rejuvenator] > Now, the $64K question (that probably no one can answer yet): How > reliable will this thing be with 3rd party SOTS add-ons? I have no > desire to drop $600 on a rejuvenator, only to find that I can use 1 meg > of chip ram *or* my hard drive... Remember the problems with LUCAS and > expansion hardware? > Eric Kennedy > ejkst@cisunx.UUCP So far it has been successfully tested with the following hardware; Spirit IN1000 memory card Michigan Software Insider Card ASDG Memory expansion soon to be tested; Ronin Hurricane accelerator card Palomax Hard disk interface C Ltd hard disk interface as well as anything else we can think of to throw on and at it :-). REgards, George -- During the last year, more people have seen Elvis than have seen Amiga ads, BUT - this is changing for the better ;-) ;-) ;-) UUCP: ucqais.uc.edu!ggibeau BBS: (513) 721-7977 GT NODE: 006/005 US Snail-Dept of Biology ML 06, University of Cincinnati, Ohio 45221
phils@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM (Philip E Staub) (08/19/89)
In article <800@becker.UUCP> douglee@becker.UUCP (Doug Lee) writes: >1930's where manufacturers all sold undocumented stuff. Eventually >they had to issue schematics so the things could be repaired. I hope we >haven't reached such a state in our throw-away society that major computer >peripherals/addons are considered disposable. Sorry to disrupt the net with >a flame, but no-one else seems to have addressed this issue and it has been >bugging me for a while. Sadly, I'm afraid I reached that conclusion quite a while ago. Try to get an A1000 internal drive repaired (or even aligned!) sometime. I had the misfortune of needing to do this and eventually had to resort to buying a new drive. This may not qualify as a "major computer peripheral" to some people, but I couldn't justify $180 (last time I checked) for a replacement drive from Commodore. Eventually I found a replacement drive through a local user's group for $110, but even then I had to do a little hacking to make everything fit. >-- >Doug Lee >douglee@becker >416-461-5357 -Phil -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phil Staub, phils@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM Definition: BUG: A feature (present or absent) which is (at best) inconvenient.
451061%UOTTAWA.bitnet@ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca (Valentin Pepelea) (08/19/89)
dougp@voodoo.ucsb.edu writes in message <2215@hub.UUCP> > Could the Rejuvenator have been designed to use dual ported ram to allow > both the 68000 and the custom chips simualtanious access to CHIP RAM? > Or is there something in the way the custom chips work that would > prevent this from working? Over here in Ottawa, we call dual ported ram, a block of memory which can be accessed both through 16-bit and 32-bit buses. What you are talking about is interleaved ram, so that you can access a small block of ram through one bus while accessing another block through another bus. A little like CHIP and FAST ram are. Valentin _________________________________________________________________________ The godess of democracy? "The Name: Valentin Pepelea tyrants may destroy a statue, Phonet: (613) 231-7476 but they cannot kill a god." Bitnet: 451061@Uottawa.bitnet Usenet: Use cunyvm.cuny.edu gate - Confucius Planet: 451061@acadvm1.UOttawa.CA
jea@merlin.cvs.rochester.edu (Joanne Albano) (08/20/89)
George : throw at it a Microbotics Starboard II with Stardrive.
Thanks
Joanne
Joanne Albano, Center for Visual Science (716) 275-3055
Room 256 Meliora Hall, Univ. of Rochester, Rochester NY 14627
UUCP: {rutgers,allegra,decvax}!rochester!ur-cvsvax!jea
INTERNET: jea@snipe.cvs.rochester.eduggibeau@ucqais.uc.edu (George Gibeau) (08/20/89)
In article <228@kesmai.COM>, dca@kesmai.COM (David C. Albrecht) writes: > In article <12400@s.ms.uky.edu>, sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) writes: > > [tells about an upgrade project to allow the 1000 to use the new custom > > chips for the 2000] Lots of stuff deleted..... > > by selling your 1000 unmolested. That some hacker has managed to cobble > up a way to sandwich the 2000 chip set into a 1000 is nice but hardly > something appropriate for Commodore to be interested in. > At least give some credit to the creative energy that went into this board. There are going to be folks that for one reason or another do not want to give up their 1000's and associated hardware. Regards, George -- During the last year, more people have seen Elvis than have seen Amiga ads, BUT - this is changing for the better ;-) ;-) ;-) UUCP: ucqais.uc.edu!ggibeau BBS: (513) 721-7977 GT NODE: 006/005 US Snail-Dept of Biology ML 06, University of Cincinnati, Ohio 45221
douglee@becker.UUCP (Doug Lee) (08/25/89)
In article <5848@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM> phils@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM (Philip E Staub) writes: >In article <800@becker.UUCP> douglee@becker.UUCP (Doug Lee) writes: My stuff about bad documentation and orphan hardware deleted >Sadly, I'm afraid I reached that conclusion quite a while ago. Try to >get an A1000 internal drive repaired (or even aligned!) sometime. I had the Bring it to my house for alignment :-) You should be able to get at least this much done at a repair shop as opposed to a board swapping place. >misfortune of needing to do this and eventually had to resort to buying a >new drive. One of the really GREAT things Commodore did with the 2000 was to use generic disk drives without the custom eject button. I forgot to mention in my last post that I almost always recommend real commodore stuff to customers. (I run a small Amiga business selling 3rd-party software and providing conhsultation/user support). Even though I could make money selling 3rd party stuff as opposed to C= since I am NOT a dealer, I can at least repair the stuff when it reappears as C= always seems to make parts and schematics available eventually. I would rather have a 2090A card than some gee-whiz super zappo controller with ten times the performance until it dies leaving you with a bookend. (sort of like the tortoise & hare story:-). >-Phil >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Phil Staub, phils@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM >Definition: BUG: A feature (present or absent) which is (at best) inconvenient. -- Doug Lee douglee@becker 416-461-5357