mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) (08/18/89)
Dealers at Winner's Circle, here in Berkeley, have made a few commments of software theives and vandels raiding their store. These people actually try to copy commercial software in the store. Some even steal the actual disks!! Some individuals try to infect the machines with viruses. Some individuals steal or otherwise screw up the PD disks. (This especially pisses me off, because Winner's Circle usually allows peple to make copies of Fish Disks free of charge) From what I understand, usually the offenders are minors. Winner's Circle is a small shop, crammed full of Amiga, Mac, ST, and IBM hardware and software. They're usually quite busy, and therefore they cannot watch everybody all of the time. As a result of these theives and vandels, many services that should occur (i.e try out a game in the store before you buy it, easily get the latetest PD stuff) cannot. Any other dealers have this problem? _______________________________________________________________________________ | Evan Jay Mitchell EECS/ERL Industrial Liaison Program | | mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu University of California at Berkeley | | Phone: (415) 643-6687 | | "Think, it ain't illegal...yet!" - George Clinton | |_____________________________________________________________________________|
kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (08/18/89)
In article <30706@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) writes:
[about people coming in and installing viruses, stealing actual disks,
copying disks in-store, killing freely-redistributable stuff, etc]
Sounds like a lot of those problems would be solved if there were a
device like the local computer-toystore sells for the Nintendo thing-
a lock that goes over the cartridge slot (in this case it would be the
disk drives of course). I seem to remember there being something like
that for the 64 or PClones; maybe it's time to generalize the concept.
Of course, then if someone wanted to demo something they'd need the
help of the management. Oh well. That's really the way it should be
anyway- run demos except when someone wants to preview something, then
don't let the disk out of your sight.
(Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from
me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I
consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I
don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home,
copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and
all to be a crime in the slightest.)
--
Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS>
Pi-Rho America \\ /// Blah
2346 15th St. \\ ///
Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order
(518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rushbga@raspail.cdcnet.cdc.com (Bruce Albrecht) (08/19/89)
In article <6846@rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: > (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from > me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I > consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I > don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, > copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and > all to be a crime in the slightest.) Oh really? How is it different for the store employee to copy something, than it is for a prospective customer to copy it? I could understand the store employee taking it home and playing with it to gain familiarity and then returning it, but copying is stealing. Period.
kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (08/20/89)
In article <2361@raspail.cdcnet.cdc.com> bga@raspail.cdcnet.cdc.com (Bruce Albrecht) writes: >> (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming >> from me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, >> I consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. >> I don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, >> copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and >> all to be a crime in the slightest.) >Oh really? How is it different for the store employee to copy >something, than it is for a prospective customer to copy it? I could >understand the store employee taking it home and playing with it to >gain familiarity and then returning it, but copying is stealing. >Period. Didn't I already respond to you in E-mail? Look. I said *nothing* about customers copying anything. I said *lifting* product is a crime. I don't care who copies what; as far as I'm concerned, unless something physical is stolen there is no problem- no one loses anything except the publisher, and that only theoretically. And don't even bother to tell me that the employee who takes home a software package every night to dupe would have bought 180-odd software packages in a year. They don't get paid that well. -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Blah 2346 15th St. \\ /// Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush
andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) (08/22/89)
In article <6846@rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: > In article <30706@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) writes: > [about people coming in and installing viruses, stealing actual disks, > copying disks in-store, killing freely-redistributable stuff, etc] > (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from > me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I > consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I > don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, > copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and > all to be a crime in the slightest.) > Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> > Pi-Rho America \\ /// Blah > 2346 15th St. \\ /// > Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order > (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush ====== ANGRY FLAME STARTS HERE! ======= Thanks, I will keep your name and address on file so I can circulate it with the lists of known and/or admitted SOFTWARE THIEVES which several developers I know maintain! Stealing is stealing! If you take the original from the store and do not return it, that is stealing. (I assume this is why you return the original to the store.) By copying the original, you are ILLEGALY DUPLICATING COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! I HOPE YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE PILFERING PROJECT AND HAS YOU LOCKED UP. I AM TEMPTED TO REPORT YOU TO THE NY STATE POLICE AND THE FBI AND ASK THEM TO INVESTIGATE YOU BASED UPON YOUR PUBLIC ADMISSION (reprinted above). I FOR ONE WILL *NEVER* PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM Pi-Rho America, Nor will I sell or allow to be sold to you any of my products. Should it *EVER* come to my attention that your company has sold one of my products I will take great pleasure in seeing you and your company dragged through the courts and prosecuted! I call upon all CSA readers to boycott your company and any products or services it produces. This kind of blatant irresponsibility on the part of people like yourself cannot be tolerated. Slime like you should be locked up! I don't like you! I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to the postmaster at pawl.rpi.edu (whose address is: usenet@rpi.edu) to have your login canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. You are a stinking theif! You are publicly advocating theft! You break the law and urge others to break the law; you should be locked up! (FLAME OFF!) Toodles. ARS. -- - Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA -- andrews@cos.com - {uunet, sundc, decuac}!cos!andrews -- Everything I write blame on me, NOT -- my employer. - "Adventure is when you toss your life on the scales of -- chance and wait for the pointer to stop." - M. Leinster (First Contact)
andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) (08/22/89)
> In article <30706@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) writes: > [about people coming in and installing viruses, stealing actual disks, > copying disks in-store, killing freely-redistributable stuff, etc] > (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from > me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I > consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I > don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, > copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and > all to be a crime in the slightest.) > Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> > Pi-Rho America \\ /// Blah > 2346 15th St. \\ /// > Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order > (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush ====== ANGRY FLAME STARTS HERE! ======= Thanks, I will keep your name and address on file so I can circulate it with the lists of known and/or admitted SOFTWARE THIEVES which several developers I know maintain! Stealing is stealing! If you take the original from the store and do not return it, that is stealing. (I assume this is why you return the original to the store.) By copying the original, you are ILLEGALY DUPLICATING COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! I HOPE YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE PILFERING PROJECT AND HAS YOU LOCKED UP. I AM TEMPTED TO REPORT YOU TO THE NY STATE POLICE AND THE FBI AND ASK THEM TO INVESTIGATE YOU BASED UPON YOUR PUBLIC ADMISSION (reprinted above). I FOR ONE WILL *NEVER* PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM Pi-Rho America, Nor will I sell or allow to be sold to you any of my products. Should it *EVER* come to my attention that your company has sold one of my products I will take great pleasure in seeing you and your company dragged through the courts and prosecuted! I call upon all CSA readers to boycott your company and any products or services it produces. This kind of blatant irresponsibility on the part of people like yourself cannot be tolerated. Slime like you should be locked up! I don't like you! I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to the postmaster at pawl.rpi.edu (whose address is: usenet@rpi.edu) to have your login canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. You are a stinking theif! You are publicly advocating theft! You break the law and urge others to break the law; you should be locked up! (FLAME OFF!) Toodles. ARS. -- - Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA -- andrews@cos.com - {uunet, sundc, decuac}!cos!andrews -- Everything I write blame on me, NOT -- my employer. - "Adventure is when you toss your life on the scales of -- chance and wait for the pointer to stop." - M. Leinster (First Contact)
langz@asylum.SF.CA.US (Lang Zerner) (08/23/89)
Robert Kudla: >> I don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, >> copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and >> all to be a crime in the slightest. In article <21819@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: >COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN >EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! >[various threats, etc. etc.] Thank you for this insightful contribution to a thought-provoking discussion. I found your paraphrase of a statement of opinion ("I don't consider it to be a crime," above) particularly perceptive: > You are publicly advocating theft...and urge others to break the law Based on your excellent analysis of Robert's posting, how can anyone conclude anything other than that Robert is dangerous and should be exiled from our community: >I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to [Robert's postmaster] >to have your login canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. Again, thank you for opening my eyes to some new ideas. It has been most edifying. >- Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA ^^^^^^^^^^^^ right. -- Be seeing you... --Lang Zerner langz@asylum.sf.ca.us UUCP:bionet!asylum!langz ARPA:langz@athena.mit.edu "...and every morning we had to go and LICK the road clean with our TONGUES!"
alj@bilver.UUCP (alj) (08/23/89)
Actually, is Pi-Rho (Pyro?) America a real company, in the first place? -Arthur -- ****************************************************************************** * (uiucuxc, hoptoad, petsd)!peora!tarpit!bilver!alj PLink: DUNG * * alj@bilver.UUCP <FEH> GEnie: A.JOHNSONJR * ******************************************************************************
mks@cbmvax.UUCP (Michael Sinz - CATS) (08/23/89)
In article <21818@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: >In article <6846@rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: >> In article <30706@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) writes: > >> [about people coming in and installing viruses, stealing actual disks, >> copying disks in-store, killing freely-redistributable stuff, etc] > >> (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from >> me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I >> consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I >> don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, >> copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and >> all to be a crime in the slightest.) > >> Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> >> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Blah >> 2346 15th St. \\ /// >> Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order >> (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush > >====== ANGRY FLAME STARTS HERE! ======= > >Thanks, I will keep your name and address on file so I can circulate it with >the lists of known and/or admitted SOFTWARE THIEVES which several developers I >know maintain! Stealing is stealing! If you take the original from the store >and do not return it, that is stealing. (I assume this is why you return the >original to the store.) By copying the original, you are ILLEGALY DUPLICATING >COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN >EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! I HOPE >YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE PILFERING PROJECT AND HAS YOU LOCKED UP. >I AM TEMPTED TO REPORT YOU TO THE NY STATE POLICE AND THE FBI AND ASK THEM TO >INVESTIGATE YOU BASED UPON YOUR PUBLIC ADMISSION (reprinted above). > >I FOR ONE WILL *NEVER* PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM Pi-Rho America, Nor will I sell >or allow to be sold to you any of my products. Should it *EVER* come to my >attention that your company has sold one of my products I will take great >pleasure in seeing you and your company dragged through the courts and prosecuted! > >I call upon all CSA readers to boycott your company and any products or services >it produces. This kind of blatant irresponsibility on the part of people like >yourself cannot be tolerated. Slime like you should be locked up! > >I don't like you! > >I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to the postmaster at >pawl.rpi.edu (whose address is: usenet@rpi.edu) to have your login >canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. You are a >stinking theif! You are publicly advocating theft! You break the >law and urge others to break the law; you should be locked up! I am in agreement! (And I thought this flame should be seen again too!) Well said. I know that MKSoft Development now has this slim on my list. C= will too, as soon as I can find out where such a list is kept. > >(FLAME OFF!) >Toodles. >ARS. > >-- >- Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA -- andrews@cos.com >- {uunet, sundc, decuac}!cos!andrews -- Everything I write blame on me, NOT >-- my employer. - "Adventure is when you toss your life on the scales of >-- chance and wait for the pointer to stop." - M. Leinster (First Contact) --- And C= is completely befuddled by any of my postings... They are mine. --- /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | /// Michael Sinz -- CATS/Amiga Software/Support Engineer | | /// PHONE 215-431-9422 UUCP ( uunet | rutgers ) !cbmvax!mks | | /// | |\\\/// ...and then, just as all was in kaos, someone said: | | \XX/ "Let there be ... what was that!? ... An Amiga? ... light!" | \----------------------------------------------------------------------/
brian@jtsv16.UUCP (Brian A. Jarvis) (08/23/89)
In article <21818@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: >In article <6846@rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: >> In article <30706@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) writes: > >> [about people coming in and installing viruses, stealing actual disks, >> copying disks in-store, killing freely-redistributable stuff, etc] > >> (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from >> me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I >> consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I >> don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, >> copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and >> all to be a crime in the slightest.) > >> Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> >> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Blah > >====== ANGRY FLAME STARTS HERE! ======= > > [...much condemnation about stealing...] >YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN >EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! He's already in comp.sys.amiga, isn't he? B{) >I HOPE >YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE PILFERING PROJECT AND HAS YOU LOCKED UP. >I AM TEMPTED TO REPORT YOU TO THE NY STATE POLICE AND THE FBI AND ASK THEM TO >INVESTIGATE YOU BASED UPON YOUR PUBLIC ADMISSION (reprinted above). And they'll say: "Prove it." >I FOR ONE WILL *NEVER* PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM Pi-Rho America, Nor will I sell >or allow to be sold to you any of my products. Should it *EVER* come to my >attention that your company has sold one of my products I will take great >pleasure in seeing you and your company dragged through the courts and prosecuted! > And they'll say: "Prove it." Just like so many people, you've had a bad day, maybe a little constipation, a slight headache or some such thing. Suddenly, you catch a rumour that his company has sold one of your products! Get the lawyers! Call the courts! Where's the FBI?! I'd recommend for the sake of the legal system that you pause to see if the rumour is first true. If so, then see if anything was copied or sold illegally. *THEN* prosecute. In that order. >I call upon all CSA readers to boycott your company and any products or services >it produces. This kind of blatant irresponsibility on the part of people like >yourself cannot be tolerated. Slime like you should be locked up! And I say: "Prove it." I'm not boycotting anyone without sufficient proof that an event has occurred which deserves boycotting. Even then, I'll make my own decision on whether or not to boycot, thank you. >I don't like you! Now *there*'s a revelation! >I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to the postmaster at >pawl.rpi.edu (whose address is: usenet@rpi.edu) to have your login >canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. Why? Will taking away one's USENET privileges suddenly cause a wave of enlightenment to spread across the continent, ushering us into a new age of peace and prosperity? I don't quite see the relationship there... Will it change Robert's position? Not likely. > You are a >stinking thief! You are publicly advocating theft! You break the >law and urge others to break the law; you should be locked up! I didn't notice any place where he advocated breaking the law. >(FLAME OFF!) >-- >- Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA -- andrews@cos.com Well, I can't say agree with Robert's position, but Andrew's little tirade has done little more than muddy the issue by starting a personal vendetta against a person I would wager he's never met, had any business dealings with or even corresponded with before. And before I start getting all kinds of stupid accusations ("How can you defend a self-declared thief?!") which I know will come (probably starting with Andrew), let me throw this item into the wind: Prove to me that Robert wrote the original article. Then prove to me that he spoke the truth with his hand on the Bible before witnesses. His original article was just something which appeared on our terminals; it is NOT an affidavit. How do you know I didn't fake it? Prove to me a crime has been committed. P.S. to Andrew: My home number is listed, along with my address. Send the cops after *me* if you think you can. =============================================================================== __ __ Brian A. Jarvis, / ) ...jtsv16!brian / ) J.T.S. Computer Systems Ltd., /--< __ o __. ____ /--/ Downsview, Ontario /___/_/ (_<_(_/|_/ / <_ / ( o My dog, Goof, still says "Hi!" ===============================================================================
kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (08/24/89)
In article <21818@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: >Thanks, I will keep your name and address on file so I can circulate >it with the lists of known and/or admitted SOFTWARE THIEVES which >several developers I know maintain! Oh my, I do believe I've been blacklisted. I don't recall where I ever admitted to pirating software, just that I agree with the concept. (Actually, in an earlier posting today, I admitted to cracking at least one piece of C64 software long ago. But you don't know which one, so you can't even sue me. I don't even think it's probable cause.) >Stealing is stealing! If you take the original from the store and do >not return it, that is stealing. (I assume this is why you return >the original to the store.) I've never worked at an electronics store, my confoosed friend. Please do learn to read. Now, this is where the fun starts. I was worried about this little geek pulling nasty political crap on me until I saw this: >By copying the original, you are ILLEGALY DUPLICATING COPYRIGHTED >MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN >EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF >HUMANITY! I HOPE YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE PILFERING >PROJECT AND HAS YOU LOCKED UP. I AM TEMPTED TO REPORT YOU TO THE NY >STATE POLICE AND THE FBI AND ASK THEM TO INVESTIGATE YOU BASED UPON >YOUR PUBLIC ADMISSION (reprinted above). Do what you like; they'll say "we'll see what we can do" and that will be the end of it. Even if someone were to come to my door with a warrant, I don't believe they'd find a piece of copyrighted software. They'd find plenty in other people's rooms, but if the warrant were for me and my Amiga..... oh well. Not that they'd pay attention to my statement above, which is not an admission but a statement of belief. By the way, I don't know if you're aware of this, but your caps lock key appears to be stuck. Also, what boss are you talking about? I'm a Kelly girl, don'tcha know. I don't think they'd know what you meant if you said "pirate". >I FOR ONE WILL *NEVER* PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM Pi-Rho America, Nor >will I sell or allow to be sold to you any of my products. Should it >*EVER* come to my attention that your company has sold one of my >products I will take great pleasure in seeing you and your company >dragged through the courts and prosecuted! Huh? Pi-Rho is an antifraternity. A house. "Pi-Rho America" is the name owned by my landlord describing.... well, I don't exactly know what, but it sounds nice and funny and your reaction is a definite indication that I should leave it in my signature. What a hoot. >I call upon all CSA readers to boycott your company and any products >or services it produces. This kind of blatant irresponsibility on >the part of people like yourself cannot be tolerated. Slime like you >should be locked up! Never say "should". People like me can just as easily say that slime like you should be stripped of all their miniscule value and left to die on the streets of manhattan, but we don't. >I don't like you! The mail you sent to my postmaster pretty well demonstrates that, I think. I've been amply admonished about the problems with making statements of political impropriety. In short, I shall watch my mouth in the future lest dickheads like you vomit forth more such bile. However, I shan't say I don't like you. You seem the honest businessman, and I can't fault you for taking offense at someone who opposes your views. Presumably, you spent a lot of time, effort and money to get where you are now. But, I have just as much of a right to explain myself as you do yourself, and I resent that you would attempt to reduce my rights. >I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to the postmaster at >pawl.rpi.edu (whose address is: usenet@rpi.edu) to have your login >canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. You are a >stinking theif! You are publicly advocating theft! You break the >law and urge others to break the law; you should be locked up! I admitted no such thing. Therefore, what you say here is libel. I demand a public apology, as well as one sent to my Usenet administrators. What I did is not a crime; what you just did is. Now who's the slimy mudball? Followups have been directed to alt.flame. They seem to like this sort of thing. -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Boy, am I glad I don't have a phone 2346 15th St. \\ /// with a working bell. Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush
pmartin@ucqais.uc.edu (Paul Martin) (08/24/89)
Well, I really resist getting into these discussions but I could not let the following go without a comment or two. In article <21818@cos.com>, andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: > In article <6846@rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: > > In article <30706@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) writes: > > > [about people coming in and installing viruses, stealing actual disks, > > copying disks in-store, killing freely-redistributable stuff, etc] > > > (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from > > me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I > > consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I > > don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, > > copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and > > all to be a crime in the slightest.) > > > Thanks, I will keep your name and address on file so I can circulate it with > the lists of known and/or admitted SOFTWARE THIEVES which several developers I > know maintain! Stealing is stealing! If you take the original from the store > and do not return it, that is stealing. (I assume this is why you return the > original to the store.) By copying the original, you are ILLEGALY DUPLICATING > COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN > EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! I HOPE > YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE PILFERING PROJECT AND HAS YOU LOCKED UP. > I AM TEMPTED TO REPORT YOU TO THE NY STATE POLICE AND THE FBI AND ASK THEM TO > INVESTIGATE YOU BASED UPON YOUR PUBLIC ADMISSION (reprinted above). > Ok, ok you can call people names. But do you really believe that the FBI is going to waste alot of taxpayers money to hust down someone who copies a few games? I think not. Software piracy (not for money) is tha same thing as copying an article from a magazine from a friend or recording a movie off of cable for you brother-in-law and I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of the people reading this article would be guilty of some sort of piracy. So lets cut this nonsense of "I think software pirates should be shot!" because almost all of us would be facing a firing squad if this were the way things were done. > I FOR ONE WILL *NEVER* PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM Pi-Rho America, Nor will I sell > or allow to be sold to you any of my products. Should it *EVER* come to my > attention that your company has sold one of my products I will take great > pleasure in seeing you and your company dragged through the courts and prosecuted! My guess is that if Pi-Rho had something you needed, you would not be so quick to say that. Also, if Pi-Rho placed an order for 5 million dollars, your morals would change about who you would sell to. > I don't like you! I think you are really paranoid! The best way to prevent piracy is to put out a quality product and people won't feel bad about paying a few dollars for it. If you are a good programmer, people will buy your software, even though many people will pirate it, you will still make a much bigger percentage of sales. I am a programmer myself and have sold many a program, and the least of my worries is piracy, because I figure that 99% of the pirated copies would not have been bought no matter what. The only programmers who should worry are the programmers who can't sell their programs so they blame it on those damn pirates, HEY BUDDY, LOOK IN THE MIRROR! > > I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to the postmaster at > pawl.rpi.edu (whose address is: usenet@rpi.edu) to have your login > canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. You are a > stinking theif! You are publicly advocating theft! You break the > law and urge others to break the law; you should be locked up! > I urge you to read the rules for this group about flaming! Instead of calling people names, why not try some constructive critisism. God I feel much better now! -- +-----------------------------+-----------------------------+ | Paul Martin | Yes I am serious, and | | pmartin@ucqais.uc.edu | don't ever call me Shirley. | +-----------------------------+-----------------------------+
sean@ms.uky.edu (Sean Casey) (08/24/89)
This is a note I just sent to the administrative logins at cos.com: ------- One of your users, Andrew Scholnick (login id andrews), recently made a Usenet posting in response to an opinion that someone else posted. In Andrew's response, he libeled that person by publically calling them a criminal, and asked people to bombard that persons postmaster with requests to have his account revoked. Hotheadedness is one thing, but this is really out of line. That person admitted to no crime, but merely stated an opinion. Postmasters and administrators are busy enough without being bothered by intolerant people like this. Recently, this "lynching" phenomena on Usenet has become a popular means to strike down people with whom one does not agree. I consider it very ugly, and detrimental the the educational process as a whole. It is important that all ideas have a chance to be discussed, no matter how controversial. I would like to suggest that someone talk to Mr. Scholnick, and explain to him that harassment and libel are considerably more serious crimes than stating one's opinion. Thank you, Sean Casey -- *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean *** Copyright 1989 by Sean Casey. Only non-profit redistribution permitted. *** ``Why can't anything be as simple as following the instructions???'' -me
andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) (08/24/89)
[various interesting tid-bits...] > > Andrew's response, he libeled that person by publically calling them a > criminal, and asked people to bombard that persons postmaster with > requests to have his account revoked. > > Hotheadedness is one thing, but this is really out of line. That > person admitted to no crime, but merely stated an opinion. Postmasters > and administrators are busy enough without being bothered by intolerant > people like this. > [other various interesting tid-bits...] > > -- > *** Sean Casey sean@ms.uky.edu, sean@ukma.bitnet, ukma!sean > *** Copyright 1989 by Sean Casey. Only non-profit redistribution permitted. > *** ``Why can't anything be as simple as following the instructions???'' -me This is the body of a note I just sent to sean@ms.uky.edu: Um, I beg to differ, Mr. K goes on to say in other postings: > That actually makes a bit of sense. I've only once or twice (and that > was in my Commodore 64 days) pirated something I've used every day. > Usually I pirate some game to divert me for a day or two since there's > no such thing as software rentals. (Hell, we've got 2 vcr's here most > of the year and I've still never copied a tape I've rented....) The > other option is that yes, I take a piece of productivity software > (MicroFiche comes to mind) for a test drive. When I can afford it, if > I've decided it's not a piece of crap, I buy it. > (Simple analogy for the brain-dead: I see nothing wrong with eating liver. > This does not mean I have any desire to do so myself.) Translation: I pirate stuff and only when I decide I will directly profit from shelling out some cash will I pay the author for what I have stolen. As I am sure you are aware, If a person talks another person into, say, robing a bank the first person, under the right circumstances, can be found guilty of something called 'conspiracy'. If your neighbor tells you that he has killed his first wife, and was never caught, your not telling the appropriate officials (unless you have an extraordinarily good reason) what you know can put you at risk of charges of 'accessory after-the-fact', 'harboring a criminal', or any of a number of other charges. Recently, there has been alot of activity in federal, state and local governmental bodies which are attempting to define what limits of liability and responsibility are appropriate for computer BBS and similar electronic services. IMHO, It is in the interest of the NET to discourage these public admissions of felonious activity, as well as the open and energetic encouragement of such activity. The laws that are coming into existance are already starting to get very restrictive. Some small BBS and email/news networks have already closed down because they simply don't want to 'take the risk' of being held accountable for someone like Mr. Kubla. Perhapps you are right. It is likely that I should have kept my response to him on a more personal level rather than posting a FLAME. I myself do not generally encourage flames. There were, however, too many aspects of this posting that rubbed me wrong, so I flamed. A more coherent response would, in all likelihood, have been appropriate. Hindsight is 20-20. ARS. -- - Andrew R. Scholnick @ Corp. for Open Systems, McLean, VA -- andrews@cos.com - {uunet, sundc, decuac}!cos!andrews -- Everything I write blame on me, NOT -- my employer. - "Adventure is when you toss your life on the scales of -- chance and wait for the pointer to stop." - M. Leinster (First Contact)
kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (08/25/89)
In article <21868@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: Um, I beg to differ, Mr. K goes on to say in other postings: [a quote from another article of mine casually mentioning that yes, once I did pirate at least one C64 game.... which I've acknowledged several times since then] > (Simple analogy for the brain-dead: I see nothing wrong with eating liver. > This does not mean I have any desire to do so myself.) Ehhhh! Misquote! I *like* liver! Cretin! Someone make a note of this! Mark my words, I'LL SUE!!! The very nerve.... Translation: I pirate stuff and only when I decide I will directly profit from shelling out some cash will I pay the author for what I have stolen. Now that you mention it, that sounds like a pretty decent way to operate, though I would word it a little differently myself were I so inclined. [paranoid ravings of how the FBI is gonna legislate us out of existence if we don't watch our mouths or something like that] I'll believe that when the last porn shop gets closed down and the last non-Christian church gets torched. And by then I expect to have been lynched for quite some time, anyway.... I don't know if you've forgotten or what, but supposedly we get this neat privilege called "freedom of thought" in exchange for having to have been born here in the good old U S of A. Followups, *once again*, have been pointed at alt.flame. -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Constitution: A piece of paper designed to 2346 15th St. \\ /// fool people into thinking they are not owned. Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush
san@halley.UUCP (Steve Sanderson) (08/25/89)
In article <6865@rpi.edu> kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: >I don't care who copies what; as far as I'm concerned, unless >something physical is stolen there is no problem- no one loses >anything except the publisher, and that only theoretically. About your comment that only the publisher loses money... Well it is true that the publisher loses money, so does the developer. A close friend of mine and I went out and bought the original Amigas when they were first released, with our own savings, and spent our own private time developing three packages to be sold for the *very new* Amiga market because we both believed that the Amiga had a lot to offer and we sincerely wanted it to succeed. Well... after finding out that our product was stolen/copied illegally much more than it was sold, it really hurt me. I had spent a lot of effort developing work which I believed in, not to get rich but just to make a living and to be able to continue doing something I felt good about. What I saw was that my personal work was not respected by a bunch of people, that people would rather steal my work and argue legalities rather than just respecting me and my work. I am not some huge company, trying to make megabucks, I'm not some shyster trying to rip someone off, I'm just one guy trying to do some creative work at home, find people who appreciate my work and get enough support to continue doing what I believe in. Consequently, I've stopped developing for the Amiga because it appears to me that what I need from people who would buy my software, i.e. honesty, is not available enough around the Amiga. As may be obvious, I'm bitter. I'm disappointed that something with the personal, grassroots activity around has so much of what I consider dishonesty. Steve Sanderson halley!san@cs.utexas.edu
swarren@eugene.uucp (Steve Warren) (08/26/89)
YAAPV (Yet Another Anti-Pirate Volley) - Hit "n" to escape now. In article <574@halley.UUCP> san@halley.UUCP (Steve Sanderson) writes: [...description of how his livelyhood was stolen by pirates...] >Consequently, I've stopped developing for the Amiga because it appears to >me that what I need from people who would buy my software, i.e. honesty, >is not available enough around the Amiga. > >As may be obvious, I'm bitter. I'm disappointed that something with the >personal, grassroots activity around has so much of what I consider >dishonesty. > > >Steve Sanderson > >halley!san@cs.utexas.edu This is what I'm talking about. The pirate lovers say "well, if his software was good enough, _someone_ would've payed for it...", but obviously "someone" does not include the pirates themselves. It reminds me of Leona Helmesly who said, "Taxes are for the little people." Her tax dodging probably cost me but a few cents total on my taxes, but this fact reduces my contempt for her not one whit. --Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM
pfaff@mercury.asd.contel.com (Ray Pfaff - Oakwood 457 934-8162) (08/26/89)
Robert Kudla: >> I don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, >> copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and >> all to be a crime in the slightest. In article <21819@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: >COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN >EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! >[various threats, etc. etc.] >I urge everyone who reads this to mail a request to [Robert's postmaster] >to have your login canceled or, at least, your USENET privaleges revoked. May we do the same when you say something that the rest of us disagree with? -Ray Pfaff
kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (08/26/89)
In article <574@halley.UUCP> san@halley.UUCP (Steve Sanderson) writes:
Well... after finding out that our product was stolen/copied illegally much
more than it was sold, it really hurt me.
Two things:
One, did you have a software house publish it? If so, would you have
still been hurt had those who copied it paid you your cut (which,
assuming a $50 product and a 5% commission, would have been $2.50)?
Two, did you do well despite the pirates? If so, what you felt was not
hurt but greed. If not, I'd say you probably wrote an inferior
product. A vast majority of Amigans I know with liquid assets are more
than willing to purchase what they hear and see is a decent product.
What I saw was that my personal work was not respected by a bunch of people,
that people would rather steal my work and argue legalities rather than
just respecting me and my work.
(Speaking for myself, I find that arguiing legalities is a dead-end
street. I do it only to amuse myself and to provoke responses to try
and understand why in the world someone would possibly consider
duplication and stealing to be identical. Is lighting a candle off of
your neighbor's stove stealing fire? Should you have to pay a service
charge for the privilege?)
I am not some huge company, trying to
make megabucks, I'm not some shyster trying to rip someone off, I'm just
one guy trying to do some creative work at home, find people who appreciate
my work and get enough support to continue doing what I believe in.
As I've said before, it's the rare home software enterpreneur who can
make it at all. There's too much deadwood commercial software and too
much good F.R. stuff for anything but the absolute best to succeed.
Consequently, I've stopped developing for the Amiga because it appears to
me that what I need from people who would buy my software, i.e. honesty,
is not available enough around the Amiga.
Praytell, which computer *is* it around? Most of my friends with 5-1/4
inch machines have boxes and boxes and boxes of pirated stuff. (Yes,
this applies to PClones as much as if not more than the 8-bits. The
only pirate boards I'm currently aware of in this area are both PC
boards.) The Mac? You've got to be kidding. Software for that thing is
so expensive most people can't *afford* to not pirate, especially
undergrads who go and buy Mac II's. ST's? Not only are they all but
dead machines on this continent, but the game-to-productivity ratio in
its software base is such that piracy is automatically a BIG problem.
The only system I don't see much piracy on is UNIX, and that's only
because almost everything useful other than the OS itself is F.R.
Don't tell me you've started developing for the Nintendo....
--
Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS>
Pi-Rho America \\ /// Constitution: A piece of paper designed to
2346 15th St. \\ /// fool people into thinking they are not owned.
Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order
(518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rushnoel@uokmax.UUCP (Bamf) (08/26/89)
In article <21818@cos.com> andrews@cos.com (Andrew R. Scholnick) writes: }In article <6846@rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: }> In art. <30706@ucbvax> mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu (Evan Mitchell) writes: } }> [about people coming in and installing viruses, stealing actual disks, }> copying disks in-store, killing freely-redistributable stuff, etc] } }> (Some people might think this to be a shift in attitudes coming from }> me. Most people probably don't care one way or the other. But, I }> consider actually lifting product from the shelves to be a crime. I }> don't consider, say, an employee taking a piece of software home, }> copying it, bringing it back and re-shelving it with new labels and }> all to be a crime in the slightest.) } }Thanks, I will keep your name and address on file so I can circulate it with }the lists of known and/or admitted SOFTWARE THIEVES which several developers I }know maintain! Stealing is stealing! If you take the original from the store }and do not return it, that is stealing. (I assume this is why you return the }original to the store.) By copying the original, you are ILLEGALY DUPLICATING }COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL! YOU ARE STEALING! YOU ARE A SLIMY, LUMP OF BILE-RIDDEN }EXCREMENT WHO SHOULD BE LOCKED AWAY WITH THE WORST REFUSE OF HUMANITY! I HOPE }YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT ABOUT YOUR LITTLE PILFERING PROJECT AND HAS YOU LOCKED UP. }I AM TEMPTED TO REPORT YOU TO THE NY STATE POLICE AND THE FBI AND ASK THEM TO }INVESTIGATE YOU BASED UPON YOUR PUBLIC ADMISSION (reprinted above). Boy, doesn't this make you wanna run right out and post your opinion on the subject? Just make sure it agrees with Andrew's, or he might tell on you... Last time I checked, USENET was supposed to be a place for INTELLIGENT discussion of topics, and was, in general, above this sort of name calling and threatening. (Richard Sexton not withstanding of course...) }I FOR ONE WILL *NEVER* PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM Pi-Rho America, Nor will I sell }or allow to be sold to you any of my products. Should it *EVER* come to my Who-GAS? <I deleted the rest of this tripe, in the interest of sanity> }I don't like you! Thats ok, I have atleast a half-dozen CSA readers right here in my office that dont like you. So go soak your head already, and move this garbage to somewhere it'll be appreaciated, like alt.Who-GAS. Bamf -- /* "Can you do something out of this world?" -- Supertramp ----You want it should sing too?------| noel@uokmax | ...!texsun!uokmax!noel <Dis-Claimer, Dat-Claimer, to look at | noel@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu 'em, you'd never know the diff...> | "Great Screaming Yak Snot!" */
kgschlueter@violet.waterloo.edu (Kevin Schlueter) (08/27/89)
Recently there have been several "confessions" of software piracy as well
as several follow-ups stating that the "confessors" will be put on some
sort of list. People making such lists should remember that:
1. Usenet messages can have fake senders (anyone who reads news around
April 1 should know this).
2. Someone other than the official owner of the account may be using it to
readnews and post messages.
3. In Canada and the U.S., people are assumed innocent until proven
guilty by due process.
4. In light of points 1 and 2, it is unlikely that 3 could satisfied by
a usenet article alone.
Even if the above were not true, do you think that you can even slightly
slow software piracy by noting the names of one or two alleged pirates?
I bet most of these alleged pirates have copied less than 10 software
packages each and probably mostly games at that. Obviously, this doesn't
make their actions right, but it's silly to waste your time going after
these people. The people making lists are like a police force that
pulls over 1 or 2 cars for driving 10 mph over the speed limit and lets
30 or 40 cars that are driving much faster get away.wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (08/29/89)
In article <6932@rpi.edu>, kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: > In article <574@halley.UUCP> san@halley.UUCP (Steve Sanderson) writes: > > Well... after finding out that our product was stolen/copied illegally much > more than it was sold, it really hurt me. > > Two things: > > One, did you have a software house publish it? If so, would you have > still been hurt had those who copied it paid you your cut (which, > assuming a $50 product and a 5% commission, would have been $2.50)? I don't know of anyone that pays commissions on the List price of software. From what I've seem, most people get 10-15% of the gross profits. This is one reason why pirates can hurt so much, because the second thousand copies of a program are a lot cheaper than the first thousand to produce. There are a lot of startup cost that make programs expensive to get to the market. > Two, did you do well despite the pirates? If so, what you felt was not > hurt but greed. If not, I'd say you probably wrote an inferior > product. A vast majority of Amigans I know with liquid assets are more > than willing to purchase what they hear and see is a decent product. If you ask me it is the pirates that are greedly. They are taking using programs without paying for it. They don't have to use the programs, no one is forcing them to. I don't care if they wouldn't have paid for the program in the first place, if they want the program they should buy it. Anyway what burns me up is this "inferior product" nonsense! If the program is so inferior why do people copy it in the first place. Also I would bet that most of the people complaining about programs are not ones that can get a program out to market. It is very hard to produce great code, often it takes a lot of time and effort to correct all the problems in a large program. Being a hacker doesn't make one a good programmer! I for one am getting fed up with the attitude being presented here. At least some respect should be shown for the people trying to get programs out for the Amiga. The Amiga market is small enough that at least the programers should be respected for thier efforts. Besides what is wrong about wanting to make a living off of your work, and maybe even getting rich if your work is good enough! Isn't that part of the freedom, hope and dreams that America is all about? Wayne Knapp
judd@tramp.Colorado.EDU (JUDD STEPHEN L) (08/30/89)
Ahem.
I noticed that somewhere in some quote from some other letter somebody said
something like "Since software rental is non-existant..."
Computer Bazaar, in Albuquerque, does in fact rent software, and not even for
that great of a price. However, I know for a fact that they rake in the bucks
doing this. Every time I'm in the store somebody is either renting or
returning a rental. (I personally have never rented, since I lived in Los
Alamos (NM) at the time). So, why don't more companies do this? Beats me, but I know that in most cases I would much rather rent some software for a week for
~$10, with a few exceptions (Ultima, for instance). Are any Boulder
storeowners listening?
P.S. Piracy: The general trend of pirate-type logic is "Why should I pay a lot
of money for a game that will only last me a week?" Well, rent a game
for a week and don't pay a lot of money!!!
P.P.S. Do video rental stores have to send royalties to the distributor,
company etc. whenever they rent a tape? (Hint, hint...)
=======================================
Sorry, no neat logo. But I do have a
self-quote: "When all else fails, read
the instructions!"kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (08/31/89)
In article <11146@boulder.Colorado.EDU> judd@tramp.Colorado.EDU (JUDD STEPHEN L) writes: >I noticed that somewhere in some quote from some other letter >somebody said something like "Since software rental is >non-existant..." >Computer Bazaar, in Albuquerque, does in fact rent software, and not >even for that great of a price. However, I know for a fact that they >rake in the bucks doing this. Every time I'm in the store somebody I've had at least three people from the West Coast inform me that this is common practice. Well, here in the East, the local Price Chopper rents Nintendo carts but the concept of renting floppies is just unheard of. Sorry to assume the whole country is braindead.... -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu> <kudla@acm.rpi.edu> <fw3s@RPITSMTS> Pi-Rho America \\ /// Sick feeling, sick reasoning, 2346 15th St. \\ /// sick challenging, la la la la..... Troy, NY 12180 /X\ \\\/// keywords: mike oldfield yes u2 r.e.m. new order (518)271-8624 // \\ \XX/ steely dan f.g.t.h. kate bush .....and even Rush
phoenix@ms.uky.edu (R'ykandar Korra'ti) (09/02/89)
In article <7002@rpi.edu> kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: >I've had at least three people from the West Coast inform me that this [renting software] >is common practice. Well, here in the East, the local Price Chopper >rents Nintendo carts but the concept of renting floppies is just >unheard of. There's also a store here in Lexington (KY) that rents (or at least used to rent - I haven't checked up on it lately, since I was never particularlly interested) software for the Amiga, Atari, and C64. And, of course, every video store rents Nintendo carts, and a few rent Atari and Sega carts. You might check other nearby towns if it's important - it's obviously not just a west-coast concept... - R'ykandar. -- | R'ykandar Korra'ti, Editor, LOW ORBIT | phoenix@ms.uky.edu | CIS 72406,370 | | Elfinkind, Unite! | phoenix@ukma.bitnet | PLink: Skywise | QLink: Bearclaw |