karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (10/15/89)
Hi everyone, Perhaps someone from Commodore will answer this... or perhaps someone else has an answer for me. I understand that the Amigas sold in the US have a 90 day warranty. My question is, why? All the common PC compatibles (including the ones we sell) have a one year warranty, including local service (on-site for some). Commodore, on the other hand, has a measly 90 day warranty. This says to me, as a potential purchaser "this system may not make it to a year without some form of service work." Frankly, as an individual purchaser, I'm not going to invest my money in a system that has so little manufacturer confidence behind it. I'd love to buy an Amy, but won't do so as long as I am going to have to shoulder the burden of a failure between 90 days and a year of use. Face it, the PC's have a 4 times longer warranty. 90 days is less than I get on nearly any consumer product (Laser disk player, amplifier, TV, etc). And Commodore HAS had their share of problems with the Amy, especially the 500's (power supplies, board shorts due to improper keyboard insulation & clearance, etc). A strong warranty is >especially< important with the Amy, which has a lot of proprietary parts that you can't get anywhere except Commodore. That makes me even more nervous. If my PC power supply blows up I get another one. Total cost under $100, time to replace < 10 minutes. If my Amy blows a power supply four months into it? Until C= is confident enough to warranty their Amigas for a year, I'm not confident enough to buy one. I wonder how many others are waiting for Commodore to decide to put a real warranty on their equipment.... -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
jmw@sdchemg (John M. Wright) (10/17/89)
Yeah, a full year warranty would be nice. On the other hand, if you go for a classy workstation like a Sun 4/330 or SPARC station 1, or a Personal Iris, guess how much warranty you get? That's right, 90 days (unless you pay for more). John Wright Chemistry, B-014, UCSD, La Jolla, CA 92093 jmw@chem.ucsd.edu jwright@ucsd (619) 534-3049
hardware@tcom.stc.co.uk (Group login for Hard) (10/17/89)
In article <1989Oct15.021329.2118@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >Hi everyone, > >Perhaps someone from Commodore will answer this... or perhaps someone else >has an answer for me. > >I understand that the Amigas sold in the US have a 90 day warranty. My >question is, why? > Here in the UK all Amigas come with a one year warranty as standard. The machines that we buy are the West German variety, and I know of no-one with one of these machines that has ever had any problems, perhaps there is a quality problem with the source of the American machines ? I believe that the 1 year waranty in this country is due to tougher consumer protection legislation and to it being standard practise. Peter.
jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (10/17/89)
In article <581@chem.ucsd.EDU>, jmw@sdchemg (John M. Wright) writes: > Yeah, a full year warranty would be nice. On the other hand, > if you go for a classy workstation like a Sun 4/330 or SPARC > station 1, or a Personal Iris, guess how much warranty you get? > That's right, 90 days (unless you pay for more). I think the 90 day warranty has more to do with the fact that Commodore is trying to run as tight a ship as possible that with the fact that the hardware is likely to fail. IBM, being more concerned about selling to businesses and so on, can afford the few extra bucks they will have to pay during those nine extra months a lot more that Commodore can. I am still of the opinion, however, that if it works for a month, it will work forever (and except for acts of God this has proven to be true for all the solid state equipment I have bought). -- James A. Treworgy -- No quote here for insurance reasons -- jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu jtreworgy%eagle@WESLEYAN.BITNET
840445m@aucs.uucp (Alan McKay) (10/18/89)
I think that Commodore Canada has a one year warranty. I recently upgraded to a 500 and seem to recall being amazed by the one year warranty. Or am I just braindead? Probably the latter. :-) -- + Alan W. McKay + + + Acadia University + "Courage my friend, it is not yet too late + + WOLFVILLE, N.S. + to make the world a better place." + + CANADA + -Tommy Douglas +
jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Jim Wright) (10/19/89)
In article <1989Oct15.021329.2118@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: | All the common PC compatibles (including the ones we sell) have a one year | warranty, including local service (on-site for some). Commodore, on the | other hand, has a measly 90 day warranty. While this isn't really an answer, I thought it was interesting. Apple buys hard drives from Quantum. Quantum gives Apple a two year warranty. Apple gives Mac buyers a 90 day warranty. From day 91 on the buyer pays. So who's making money? :-) [Yes, I know that recently Apple has extended their warranty, due to huge numbers of drive failures.] -- Jim Wright jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu
Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (10/20/89)
> Until C= is confident enough to warranty their Amigas for a year, I'm not > confident enough to buy one. I wonder how many others are waiting for > Commodore to decide to put a real warranty on their equipment.... My Amiga 1000 that I have had for 3 1/2 years works just fine.. with the 90 day warranty no less. Another thing to consider is that you DON'T see a PC with the features of the Amiga anywhere near the price. When pricing a product the warranty period is a determining factor of retail cost. Are *YOU* willing to pay more for a longer warranty?? - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
Bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Gareth Bull) (10/23/89)
In article <1989Oct18.000131.10516@aucs.uucp>, 840445m@aucs.uucp (Alan McKay) writes: > I think that Commodore Canada has a one year warranty. I recently upgraded > to a 500 and seem to recall being amazed by the one year warranty. Or am I > just braindead? Probably the latter. :-) I asked my local Amiga dealer what the warranty on the A590 was. "90 days at the moment, as on all CBM merchandise. This will be changed to 12 months in the near future" ( applicable to all CBM gear I was told ). -- Bull@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au OR com259h@monu1.cc.monash.oz Alias: Gareth Bull "The King is Dead. Long live the King." Monash Uni, Australia.
perley@caesar (Donald P Perley) (10/24/89)
In article <23196@cup.portal.com>, Doug_B_Erdely@cup writes: >> I wonder how many others are waiting for >> Commodore to decide to put a real warranty on their equipment.... > Another thing to consider is that you DON'T see a >PC with the features of the Amiga anywhere near the price. When pricing a >product the warranty period is a determining factor of retail cost. Are *YOU* >willing to pay more for a longer warranty?? I WAS willing to pay less for a longer warrantee. Back when Magnavox was making the 1084, I got the equivalent monitor (maybe an extra feature or 2) with the magnavox name plate for about $30 less and it came with a 2 year warrantee instead of commodore's 90 days. Both monitors were priced at the same dealer. In many markets the customers would settle for a shorter warrantee if an onsite service contract was available from commodore. It wouldn't sell well for the home market, but that sort of thing is the norm where downtime means idle employees. -don perley perley@trub.crd.ge.com
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (10/25/89)
In article <23196@cup.portal.com> Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com writes: >> Until C= is confident enough to warranty their Amigas for a year, I'm not >> confident enough to buy one. I wonder how many others are waiting for >> Commodore to decide to put a real warranty on their equipment.... > > My Amiga 1000 that I have had for 3 1/2 years works just fine.. with the >90 day warranty no less. Another thing to consider is that you DON'T see a >PC with the features of the Amiga anywhere near the price. When pricing a >product the warranty period is a determining factor of retail cost. Are *YOU* >willing to pay more for a longer warranty?? So what? I also know of a half dozen people who bought A500s, and had them go back three or four times before they worked right -- and then, some time after 90 days they broke again -- this time it was on them. I don't CARE if I see a PC with the features of an Amiga at the same price. That is not the point. The Amys are neat machines, yes, but they have several shortcomings: 1) The plastic case. Yes, the PLASTIC case. It deforms easily, is broken easily, and in general gives off the impression of >toy<. The A500s and A1000s have this problem. I have not looked closely at an A2000. These machines do not sell for anywhere near a >toy< price, so I expect quality in construction all around, >including< the case. I remember at least one A1000 that had problems with the case bending because someone put a monitor on top of it! This is unheard of in the PC land, where cases are made of METAL. 2) Shoddy construction. Included here are the problems with the A500 keyboards which are reputed to short out, some things I saw in the original A1000s that didn't really turn me on (the "stacking" method on the circuit boards) and a few other points. All in all, bad news. 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?) 4) The warranty. As a commercial entity I might be interested in buying an Amy for work use. As an individual I am not -- because I cannot afford the hit that could come from a failure between 90 days and a year's time. 90 days is insufficient to prove out the hardware unless I use it every day for several hours -- and I can't be sure I'll do that. A year warranty would be likely to catch >all< the problems. This problem is exacerbated by all the custom chips and their costs, as well as the cost of repairs -- a reasonably simple problem could cost a few hundred bucks to get fixed! Say Agnes blows up. How much? Some $100 for the part, plus an hour or so tech time. Total cost of some $150 perhaps. On a $500-900 system (A500 here). Within the first 6 months of ownership? There is no chance I'm willing to accept that kind of risk. Sure, the Amy is a nice machine. It has great points. I have some complaints with the OS; it's lack of resource knowledge (ie: having to explicitly free your allocated storage before exiting) stinks, but that can be lived with (and worked around with some custom libraries which I can write). The HARWARE issues are harder to resolve, more expensive to fix when they manifest themselves. Let's take an example from the consumer market -- big-ticket stuff. A cellular phone, for example. Every unit out there I am aware of either has a one or three year warranty. They sell for somewhere around $1,000, a major investment for most people. They take a while to get fixed when they do break, and are >expensive< to fix if you're footing the bill. Yet companies are finding out more and more that even a 1 year warranty is not sufficient. 3 years is plenty long enough, and firms are increasingly offering that protection. The incremental cost increase is >not< large UNLESS THE PRODUCT BREAKS A LOT. So why is Commodore not doing something about this? Do Amigas have a horrible record in this department? If their repair record is excellent, and they have no major problems, why only a 90 day warranty -- the additional warranty's marginal cost would be minimal, right? Amys in Canada have a one year warranty. How about the US Commodore? -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
martens@dinghy.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jeff Martens) (10/25/89)
In article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: [ stuff deleted ] >I don't CARE if I see a PC with the features of an Amiga at the same price. >That is not the point. The Amys are neat machines, yes, but they have >several shortcomings: >1) The plastic case. Yes, the PLASTIC case. It deforms easily, is broken > easily, and in general gives off the impression of >toy<. The A500s and How does this distinguish the Amiga from, say, the Mac? The Mac is plastic. A Sun workstation, certainly a professional system, is plastic. Granted, PCs are metal. So what? >2) Shoddy construction. Included here are the problems with the A500 > keyboards which are reputed to short out, some things I saw in the > original A1000s that didn't really turn me on (the "stacking" method on > the circuit boards) and a few other points. All in all, bad news. Commodore should be embarassed by the A1000 keyboard. I don't know enough to comment about the 500 or 2000s. >3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and > (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to > be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have > a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?) Everybody uses custom keyboards. Everybody. As has been discussed here before, the drives ARE standard 3.5" drives. >4) The warranty. As a commercial entity I might be interested in buying an > Amy for work use. As an individual I am not -- because I cannot afford > the hit that could come from a failure between 90 days and a year's time. > 90 days is insufficient to prove out the hardware unless I use it every > day for several hours -- and I can't be sure I'll do that. A year > warranty would be likely to catch >all< the problems. This problem is > exacerbated by all the custom chips and their costs, as well as the cost > of repairs -- a reasonably simple problem could cost a few hundred bucks > to get fixed! Say Agnes blows up. How much? Some $100 for the part, > plus an hour or so tech time. Total cost of some $150 perhaps. On a > $500-900 system (A500 here). Within the first 6 months of ownership? > There is no chance I'm willing to accept that kind of risk. I don't know one way or another about your prices, but you seem pretty concerned about fairly unlikely occurrences. If I always worried about worst case, I'd never leave my apartment, eat or drink. Actually, I better go outside, since the building could collapse at any time. But if I go outside, a B-1 could suck a bird up it intake and crash on top of me. Darn. As a general rule with electronics, if it works for a few weeks, it's gonna keep working. >Sure, the Amy is a nice machine. It has great points. I have some >complaints with the OS; it's lack of resource knowledge (ie: having to >explicitly free your allocated storage before exiting) stinks, but that can >be lived with (and worked around with some custom libraries which I can >write). The HARWARE issues are harder to resolve, more expensive to fix >when they manifest themselves. The Mac and PC (MSDOS at least) don't do resource tracking either, so, relatively speaking, this isn't a minus. It's also a pretty trivial programming task if you use any discipline. What's HARWARE? Obviously an acronym, but I can't figure it out. >Let's take an example from the consumer market -- big-ticket stuff. A >cellular phone, for example. Every unit out there I am aware of either has a >one or three year warranty. They sell for somewhere around $1,000, a major >investment for most people. They take a while to get fixed when they do >break, and are >expensive< to fix if you're footing the bill. >Yet companies are finding out more and more that even a 1 year warranty is >not sufficient. 3 years is plenty long enough, and firms are increasingly >offering that protection. The incremental cost increase is >not< large >UNLESS THE PRODUCT BREAKS A LOT. First, a cellular phone is typically kept in a harsh environment -- your Yugo. It's regularly subjected to temperature and humidity extremes, so it's going to break more often. Thus, a longer warrantee really is a selling point. Second, your point about incremental cost is valid. >So why is Commodore not doing something about this? Do Amigas have a >horrible record in this department? If their repair record is excellent, >and they have no major problems, why only a 90 day warranty -- the >additional warranty's marginal cost would be minimal, right? Amys in >Canada have a one year warranty. How about the US Commodore? I don't know if Commodore is doing anything about this or not. Based on my own experience, talking to people, and reading the net, evidence, I'm inclined to say that the repair record is neither great nor terrible. One thing to keep in mind is that, in order to boost the warranty to 1 year: 1) somebody in Amiga marketing has to think it would help sales; 2) somebody has to to a CBA; 3) the change has to be authorized; and 4) somebody has to get new warranty cards printed up. If you've never been in a large organization, be careful not to underestimate the amount of time and effort involved, and the amount of bureaucracy to overcome (I was a Honeywell inmate -- hopefully Commodore's not that bad). Finally, please notice that I've done my part to steer this discussion out of comp.sys.amiga.tech, a totally inappropriate place for a marketing debate. -=- -- Jeff (martens@cis.ohio-state.edu) Lie of the week: "I never meant to hurt anyone or defraud anyone" -- Jim Bakker
Atomic-Bum@cup.portal.com (Peter Warren Lee) (10/26/89)
>I don't know one way or another about your prices, but you seem pretty >concerned about fairly unlikely occurrences. Well,I must be one of those rarities then. I bought a 500 with it's 90 day warrantee and everything was fine until month 5. When I took the computer in for repair I was asked if I had modified something myself because traces on the PCB were MELTED! I had never even popped open the case. It took 3 trip and 1 month to finally get it fixed. I think a 1 year warrantee should be the minimum length of time for something like a computer. If most electronic stuf that goes a couple weeks will probably keep on working, then CBM shouldn't have a problem with a good warrantee.
jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (10/26/89)
In article <72137@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>, martens@dinghy.cis.ohio-state.edu (Jeff Martens) writes: > In article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >>2) Shoddy construction. Included here are the problems with the A500 >> keyboards which are reputed to short out, some things I saw in the >> original A1000s that didn't really turn me on (the "stacking" method on >> the circuit boards) and a few other points. All in all, bad news. > > Commodore should be embarassed by the A1000 keyboard. I don't know > enough to comment about the 500 or 2000s. > I disagree... I LOVE the 1000 keyboard. It is the perfect size, and it is very easy to clean. The 2000 keyboard is a behemoth, and has a monster cable connecting it to the computer. Not very convenient for putting in your lap. The 1000 keyboard is compact, but not crowded, and has a lightweight telephone cable as a connector. -- James A. Treworgy -- No quote here for insurance reasons -- jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu jtreworgy%eagle@WESLEYAN.BITNET
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (10/26/89)
in article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) says: > Summary: Heh, this is a CONSUMER item. Major consumer items have warranties > Xref: cbmvax comp.sys.amiga:44851 comp.sys.amiga.tech:8474 > 1) The plastic case. [...] I have not looked closely at an A2000. The A2000 has a metal case with a plastic front bezel, like most Clones. > 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and > (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to > be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have > a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?) The floppy mechanisms used are industry standard 3.5" drives (the same kind you use for 720k floppies on Clones). There's a little bit of extra logic in external drives that sends the proper ID code to the Amiga, so it knows what kind of drive is connected and can thus automatically mount that drive for you. This logic also allows independent motor control of 4 daisy chained drives, which you can't get using the industry standard 34 pin ribbon cable alone (most Clones only support two drives, anyway). The keyboard does a number of things that PC keyboards don't do. Same reason, I suspect, Macs don't use Clone keyboards. The layout, however, is pretty close to standard (if anything, the AT keyboards mess up here by screwing around with the position of the control key and building an immense and annoying caps-lock key. DEC set a reasonable keyboard standard long before there ever was an IBM PC). > Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (10/27/89)
Karl, calm down... First off.. there is nothing wrong with making the A500's case out of plastic. It is a HOME computer, PERIOD! The A2000 for your information does have a metal case, because it is, more often used in pro markets (Video, etc..) None of the folks I know who have/had A1000's have ever had any problems. I know one person who had a small problem with the clock on his A2000. I know two people who had problems with an A500. And for the record ALL were under the 90 day warranty. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see a 1 year warranty, if for nothing else than to calm the fears of new buyers. But your implication that the machine is more prone to problems, I just don't agree with. And my service tech (who belongs to our user's group) would also disagree with you that it takes a long time to get parts. Because it does not. - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
rar@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) (10/27/89)
In article <72137@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Jeff Martens <martens@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: >In article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > > [ stuff deleted ] > >>I don't CARE if I see a PC with the features of an Amiga at the same price. >>That is not the point. The Amys are neat machines, yes, but they have >>several shortcomings: > >>1) The plastic case. Yes, the PLASTIC case. It deforms easily, is broken >> easily, and in general gives off the impression of >toy<. The A500s and > >How does this distinguish the Amiga from, say, the Mac? The Mac is >plastic. A Sun workstation, certainly a professional system, is >plastic. Granted, PCs are metal. So what? I don't know about all of the clones, but I do know that IBM PC's, and I think the newer PS/2's do NOT have metal cases. Their cases are made with a special kind of plastic that is designed to give off the impression that it is some kind of metal. This was told to me at the beginning of a summer internship with IBM two years ago, by the person who was giving me a tour of the plant in North Carolina where IBM now assembles the PS/2's. However, I do agree with the point that a cheap, thin plastic case on a computer gives an impression of cheapness, and of being a toy computer, something that Commodore should be concerned about. On a side note to Commodore, I'll reiterate what has been said many times before: Commodore should have a low-end machine with a seperate keyboard. One piece computers, no matter how powerful, are generally thought of as toy computers. Also, I know several people who would like to buy an Amiga, but can't afford a 2000, and HATE computers without seperate keyboards. Fortunately, I'll be able to sell my old A1000 computer to him, although he would much rather buy a new machine (for the upgrade path with the graphics chips). >>4) The warranty. ... > >As a general rule with electronics, if it works for a few weeks, it's >gonna keep working. Then again, a computer is not just electronics. A friend of mine has had a LOT of trouble with the Agnus chip in his 500. It keeps coming loose. After a couple of trips to the repair shop, he finally figured a way of fixing it himself so that it stays in. Well, I have more to say, but I have to study for a Spanish midterm now. Adios, Amigos y Amigas! >-- Jeff (martens@cis.ohio-state.edu) Rodney -- "We may have come over here in different ships, but we're all in the same boat now." -- Jesse Jackson Rodney Ricks, Morehouse Software Group
filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us (Bela Lubkin) (10/27/89)
In article <23416@cup.portal.com> Doug Erdely writes: > [...] Don't get me wrong, I >would like to see a 1 year warranty, if for nothing else than to calm the >fears of new buyers. There is a simple solution. Commodore should offer a 1-year (or longer) "Extended Warranty Package" for only a little more than they expect it to cost them ON THE AVERAGE. They should then honor it regardless of how much it costs them on a particular machine, because it costs them nothing on so many other machines. Then any customer who feels the need for a longer warranty may have one, and any who doesn't has absolutely no basis for complaint if their machine breaks down after the end of the standard warranty period. I would GUESS that the cost for a 1-year extended warranty for an A500 or A2000 would be about $80; about $20 for an external drive, also about $20 for a CBM-supplied hard disk; near zero for memory expansions. 2-year versions would go for about 40% more than 1-year. Any chance of this, Commodore? Bela Lubkin * * // filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us CompuServe: 73047,1112 @ * * // ....ucbvax!ucscc!gorn!filbo ^^^-VERY slow [months] R Pentomino * \X/ Filbo @ Pyrzqxgl +408-476-4633 & XBBS +408-476-4945
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (10/27/89)
In article <8288@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: >in article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) says: >> Summary: Heh, this is a CONSUMER item. Major consumer items have warranties >> 1) The plastic case. [...] I have not looked closely at an A2000. > >The A2000 has a metal case with a plastic front bezel, like most Clones. And the 500? The 1000 (admittedly defunct now)? >> 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and >> (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to >> be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have >> a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?) > >The floppy mechanisms used are industry standard 3.5" drives (the same kind you >use for 720k floppies on Clones). There's a little bit of extra logic in >external drives that sends the proper ID code to the Amiga, so it knows what >kind of drive is connected and can thus automatically mount that drive for you. >This logic also allows independent motor control of 4 daisy chained drives, >which you can't get using the industry standard 34 pin ribbon cable alone (most >Clones only support two drives, anyway). "There's a little bit of extra logic in external drives".... which means that they won't work unless you have that extra bit of logic! In other words, they are indeed different. Independent motor control sounds interesting, but it's hardly necessary. I call this "change because it felt good", or more likely "change to make it harder for people to patch in non-proprietary hardware". >The keyboard does a number of things that PC keyboards don't do. Same reason, >I suspect, Macs don't use Clone keyboards. The layout, however, is pretty close >to standard (if anything, the AT keyboards mess up here by screwing around with >the position of the control key and building an immense and annoying caps-lock >key. DEC set a reasonable keyboard standard long before there ever was an >IBM PC). Keyboards I can understand -- as long as replacements are available at reasonable cost ($100 or so). They >are< different; I don't expect you to use the scancode system of a PC (although it would have been nice to see compatibility there as well). I noticed that conspicuous by it's absence was a response to my query regarding warranties.... >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy > Too much of everything is just enough -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Jim Wright) (10/28/89)
In article <61.filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us> filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us (Bela Lubkin) writes: | I would GUESS that the cost for a 1-year extended | warranty for an A500 or A2000 would be about $80; about $20 for an | external drive, also about $20 for a CBM-supplied hard disk; near zero for | memory expansions. I hope the price would be much lower. If you figure the price of a plain-jane 2000 is $2000 (high), then that warranty says one out of 25 machines will be a total dud requiring replacement. -- Jim Wright jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu
filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us (Bela Lubkin) (10/29/89)
In article <1708@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu> Jim Wright writes: > [I (Bela) write:] >| I would GUESS that the cost for a 1-year extended >| warranty for an A500 or A2000 would be about $80; about $20 for an >| external drive, also about $20 for a CBM-supplied hard disk; near zero for >| memory expansions. >I hope the price would be much lower. If you figure the price of a >plain-jane 2000 is $2000 (high), then that warranty says one out of >25 machines will be a total dud requiring replacement. What? Hardly. That cost is actually calculated assuming that maybe 1 in 5 machines will be brought in for warranty service (remembering that with a warranty, people will bring the machine in for things that are really ridiculous, like have mis-adjusted the contrast/brightness on the monitor). So that's about 20 visits out of a typical 100 machines. Let's assume $100 in service charges on the average. (That assumes many trivial problems, plus a couple of bad custom chips, keyboards, drives, etc.) Add in just one machine going all the way bad and you're up to $4000 in expenses. Add another $2000 in payments to the stores implementing the warranties, to cover the cost of paperwork etc. This leaves $2000 out of the $8000 as profit for Commodore. That's reasonable by me. Of course Commodore would be in a far better position to make a realistic estimate of the cost of a warranty. They should have a pretty good idea what the 90-day warranty costs them. A 1-year warranty would probably cost about twice as much (monetarily; it might make up for it in additional sales). I could easily be WAY off on my assumptions. Bela Lubkin * * // filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us CompuServe: 73047,1112 @ * * // ....ucbvax!ucscc!gorn!filbo ^^^-VERY slow [months] R Pentomino * \X/ Filbo @ Pyrzqxgl +408-476-4633 & XBBS +408-476-4945
billsey@agora.UUCP (Bill Seymour) (10/30/89)
From article :1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM:, by karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger):
:
: I don't CARE if I see a PC with the features of an Amiga at the same price.
: That is not the point. The Amys are neat machines, yes, but they have
: several shortcomings:
:
: 3) Custom components where not necessary. Specifically, floppy drives and
: (to a lesser extent) keyboards. The floppy drives in particular seem to
: be custom just so they can be (720K & 1.44MB "PC" style 3.5" drives have
: a diskchange signal, which the Amy needs, so why not use them?)
The Amigas use a standard IBM type 720K 3.5 inch drive... They just
store more data by writing full tracks rather than sector by sector. The
hardware is the same.
: Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, :well-connected:!ddsw1!karl)
: Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910]
: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
--
-Bill Seymour ...tektronix!reed!percival!agora!billsey
...tektronix!sequent.UUCP!calvin!billsey
Bejed, Inc. NES, Inc. Northwest Amiga Group At Home Sometimes
(503) 691-2552 (503) 246-9311 (503) 656-7393 BBS (503) 640-0842karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (11/01/89)
In article <72137@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Jeff Martens <martens@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes: >In article <1989Oct24.193454.23743@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > > [ stuff deleted ] > >>I don't CARE if I see a PC with the features of an Amiga at the same price. >>That is not the point. The Amys are neat machines, yes, but they have >>several shortcomings: > >>1) The plastic case. Yes, the PLASTIC case. It deforms easily, is broken >> easily, and in general gives off the impression of >toy<. The A500s and > >How does this distinguish the Amiga from, say, the Mac? The Mac is >plastic. A Sun workstation, certainly a professional system, is >plastic. Granted, PCs are metal. So what? Ok, let me redefine that. A >cheap< plastic case. The A1000s had horribly cheap plastic used in their construction. Plastic that was inadaquately reinforced, such that if you did what appeared to be intended (place a monitor on top of the box) the entire thing would deform and bend! >>2) Shoddy construction. Included here are the problems with the A500 >> keyboards which are reputed to short out, some things I saw in the >> original A1000s that didn't really turn me on (the "stacking" method on >> the circuit boards) and a few other points. All in all, bad news. > >Commodore should be embarassed by the A1000 keyboard. I don't know >enough to comment about the 500 or 2000s. I know of two people who had 500 KBs short out -- repeatedly. Note too that on the 500's, the keyboard IS the computer. Yuck. >>4) The warranty. As a commercial entity I might be interested in buying an >> Amy for work use. As an individual I am not -- because I cannot afford >> the hit that could come from a failure between 90 days and a year's time. >> 90 days is insufficient to prove out the hardware unless I use it every >> day for several hours -- and I can't be sure I'll do that. A year >> warranty would be likely to catch >all< the problems. This problem is >> exacerbated by all the custom chips and their costs, as well as the cost >> of repairs -- a reasonably simple problem could cost a few hundred bucks >> to get fixed! Say Agnes blows up. How much? Some $100 for the part, >> plus an hour or so tech time. Total cost of some $150 perhaps. On a >> $500-900 system (A500 here). Within the first 6 months of ownership? >> There is no chance I'm willing to accept that kind of risk. > >I don't know one way or another about your prices, but you seem pretty >concerned about fairly unlikely occurrences. What a crock. If it WAS unlikely, then there would be a year warranty, no? Why not, if Commodore isn't going to eat much in repairs? Or is the truth that the systems DO blow up often, and expensively. THOSE CUSTOM CHIPS CANNOT BE IGNORED. I can get nearly ANY part for a PC clone from any one of 100 distributors. Half of the Ami's stuff is CUSTOM and available ONLY from Commodore. Monopolistic pricing sets in under this circumstance. >As a general rule with electronics, if it works for a few weeks, it's >gonna keep working. Unless the design stinks, in which case that axiom doesn't hold true. >>Let's take an example from the consumer market -- big-ticket stuff. A >>cellular phone, for example. Every unit out there I am aware of either has a >>one or three year warranty. They sell for somewhere around $1,000, a major >>investment for most people. They take a while to get fixed when they do >>break, and are >expensive< to fix if you're footing the bill. >>.......The incremental cost increase is >not< large >>UNLESS THE PRODUCT BREAKS A LOT. > >First, a cellular phone is typically kept in a harsh environment -- >your Yugo. It's regularly subjected to temperature and humidity >extremes, so it's going to break more often. Thus, a longer warrantee >really is a selling point. Oh? I suppose you know nothing about something called "thermal cycling", eh? I do, we run into these kind of failures all the time in the PC world. >Second, your point about incremental cost is valid. Yep. If failure is improbable, say, 2% of the systems fail, then the incremental cost is only a couple of dollars a system! -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (11/01/89)
In article <61.filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us> filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us (Bela Lubkin) writes: >In article <23416@cup.portal.com> Doug Erdely writes: >> [...] Don't get me wrong, I >>would like to see a 1 year warranty, if for nothing else than to calm the >>fears of new buyers. > >There is a simple solution. Commodore should offer a 1-year (or longer) >"Extended Warranty Package" for only a little more than they expect it to >cost them ON THE AVERAGE. Yep. And if the systems are as reliable as they would like us to believe, the cost would be a few dollars a unit. >They should then honor it regardless of how >much it costs them on a particular machine, because it costs them nothing >on so many other machines. That's the idea of a warranty. >I would GUESS that the cost for a 1-year extended >warranty for an A500 or A2000 would be about $80; about $20 for an >external drive, also about $20 for a CBM-supplied hard disk; near zero for >memory expansions. 2-year versions would go for about 40% more than 1-year. >Any chance of this, Commodore? Let's look at this: Cost Warranty Fail % External drive: $150 $20 13% (!) A500 System unit $700 $80 11% (!) Is this realistic? If it's 1 in 10 to break in the first 12 months, I'm not buying it. Those are TERRIBLE odds, far worse than any of the PC lines we handle, and far worse than any consumer product I have ever owned. Our AT & 386 units have a field failure rate of about 2% over the first year. Fixed disks are a little higher, but those are warranteed by the MANUFACTURER; thus our cost is simply shipping & handling on those failures. Hell, my $1200 laser disk player has an extended warranty -- it was $80. But that warranty covers EVERYTHING, including routine cleanings, for FIVE YEARS. What you're proposing isn't a warranty, it's another profit center, and a darn good one at that (or the product's failure rate is unacceptable). -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
murphy@pur-phy (William J. Murphy) (11/01/89)
In article <1989Oct31.180252.7798@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > >THOSE CUSTOM CHIPS CANNOT BE IGNORED. I can get nearly ANY part for a PC >clone from any one of 100 distributors. Half of the Ami's stuff is CUSTOM >and available ONLY from Commodore. Monopolistic pricing sets in under this >circumstance. >-- >Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) >Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] >Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price" Karl, You need to check your facts a little more carefully. If you are referring to the chips such as Gary, Buster, Paula, ... There are companies which do sell them even though they are exclusively made by C=. One such company is called Grapevine. They have run ads in the most recent AmigaWorld and in one of the recent Amiga Transactor issues. So the gist is yes C= is the only one making these chips, but they are available from more places than just C=. -- Bill Murphy murphy@newton.physics.purdue.edu
nor1675@dsacg2.UUCP (Michael Figg) (11/01/89)
In article <1989Oct31.180252.7798@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: > > What a crock. If it WAS unlikely, then there would be a year warranty, no? > Why not, if Commodore isn't going to eat much in repairs? Or is the truth > that the systems DO blow up often, and expensively. I'm not sure I can agree with this. What about the automobile industry? The American manufacturers developed a fairly poor record for dependability compared to the Japanese and now even if they are building much better cars (I don't know if they are, I own a Honda) they have to offer 5 or 6 year warranties where the Japanese only have 1 or 2 year warranties. The US makers need the longer warranty because of their reputation. The Japanese don't need a strong warranty program because they build much more dependable cars to begin with. I might be alittle partial to the Japanese cars, but there record is supported by many consumer reports. -- "Hot Damn! Groat Cakes Again | Michael Figg Heavy on the thirty weight!" | DLA Systems Automation Center - Columbus,Oh
gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (11/02/89)
My own opinion about my A1000, which I've had since Nov. of 1985, is that it is a reliable, well-built computer. The only problem I've had with it in these 4 years is that the internal disk drive stopped reading reliably and I had to replace it. For the last 3 years or so I have had an external disk drive, and for about 2 years I have been running it with an internal memory board. Other than the disk drive I have had no problems. I have used it a lot, both for programming while I was a student, and for my own amusement. I leave it on most of the time. As far as the keyboard is concerned, I like it. It may not be constructed as heavily as the sun keyboard I am typing on now, but it has good feel (not mushy) and the keys are generally in the right place. It is more sensitive than the sun keyboard. I think the sun keyboard is ruining my fingers because I have to press so hard on the keys. For a long time I had my color monitor on top of the case, and I did notice flexing, but it didn't cause any problems. It seems like the A500 may not be as reliable as the A1000, from reports on the net. My own practice, when I buy any new piece of electronic equipment, is to try to break it within the first 90 days. I turn it on and off a lot, and leave it on a lot. If it doesn't malfunction then, it probably won't for a long time. After this period, I try to leave the equipment on as much as possible, to avoid thermal cycling and power surges. I never buy "extended warrantees", since most electronic devices break early or late in their lives. I think a 1 year warrantee on your computer is kind of like an IBM nameplate on your computer; you pay for it but it doesn't get you much. My own experience has born this out; I have never had any electronic device break on me after the warrantee expired (except the aforementioned disk drive), though at least once (with a commodore 64) I had to return something within the warrantee period. -Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com
monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) (11/04/89)
In article <1989Oct31.180252.7798@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >Ok, let me redefine that. A >cheap< plastic case. The A1000s had horribly >cheap plastic used in their construction. Plastic that was inadaquately >reinforced, such that if you did what appeared to be intended (place a >monitor on top of the box) the entire thing would deform and bend! Which A1000 and monitor are you refering to? I've had my 1080 setting on top of my A1000 for 4 years now and I see no signs of any bending/deforming! Have you been putting a 30" monitor on an A1000 and complaining about it bending???????? Get real or better informed or dry up. The case was not built to hold a massive monitor, but, it holds the one it was designed for just fine with no problems. I have a RGB conrac we use at work (14") that would put a noticable indent in any PC case I've seen, metal or not! But have a nice day anyway. (:<) Monty Saine >Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) >Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] >Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us (Bela Lubkin) (11/04/89)
In article <61.filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us> I (Bela) write: >I would GUESS that the cost for a 1-year extended >warranty for an A500 or A2000 would be about $80; about $20 for an >external drive, also about $20 for a CBM-supplied hard disk; near zero for >memory expansions. 2-year versions would go for about 40% more than 1-year. In article <1989Oct31.180829.8054@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Karl Denninger writes: >Let's look at this: > Cost Warranty Fail % > External drive: $150 $20 13% (!) > A500 System unit $700 $80 11% (!) > >Is this realistic? If it's 1 in 10 to break in the first 12 months, I'm >not buying it. Those are TERRIBLE odds, far worse than any of the PC lines >we handle, and far worse than any consumer product I have ever owned. I thought I already posted about this. If you think a $20 warranty on a $150 item suggests a 13% failure rate, you're crazy. I'm assuming a parts-and-labor warranty. If it takes the technician half an hour to reseat the Denise chip, Commodore pays for it. If a switch goes bad on the keyboard and needs to be replaced, Commodore pays for labor as well as the part. In the rare case of a total failure, Commodore pays for several hours worth of investigation, then for an entire replacement machine. Or they can choose to replace the machine automatically in certain failures, and save the cost of labor. In any case, the warranty also pays for the dealer's red tape costs, and must pay some profit to the dealer to provide an incentive to honor the warranty correctly. Let's look at $20 on a $150 external drive. Let's say we start with 100 drives, or $2000 to pay for warranty stuff. $20 is probably a pretty typical charge for having the technician look at something. So if that's all that was being done, we could assume a 100% "look-at" rate. Now, some of those drives are going to need more than just a cleaning, like perhaps an alignment. If 10% need a $50 alignment, that eats $500 of the warranty money. If 3% need replacement, that's another $450. If Commodore pays the dealer 25% of the warranty price to cover paperwork and provide some profit, that's another $500. The remaining $550 will cover having 28% of the drives in for a cleaning. Realize that if a consumer product has a comprehensive warranty, some owners are going to bring their product in even if it doesn't have a specific product, just to get it "tuned up". Yes, all the numbers are bogus. I don't know actual figures, I just know that the warranty money gets split up a LOT more ways than just straight replacement cost. >Hell, my $1200 laser disk player has an extended warranty -- it was $80. >But that warranty covers EVERYTHING, including routine cleanings, for FIVE >YEARS. What you're proposing isn't a warranty, it's another profit center, >and a darn good one at that (or the product's failure rate is unacceptable). This says to me that the cost of such a warranty is already figured into your *$1000* laser disk player and that you'd be a fool not to pay the small incremental amount to actually qualify for what you've already payed for. Bela Lubkin * * // filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us CompuServe: 73047,1112 @ * * // ....ucbvax!ucscc!gorn!filbo ^^^-VERY slow [months] R Pentomino * \X/ Filbo @ Pyrzqxgl +408-476-4633 & XBBS +408-476-4945
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (11/08/89)
In article <76.filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us> filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us (Bela Lubkin) writes: >In article <61.filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us> I (Bela) write: >>I would GUESS that the cost for a 1-year extended >>warranty for an A500 or A2000 would be about $80; about $20 for an >>external drive, also about $20 for a CBM-supplied hard disk; near zero for >>memory expansions. 2-year versions would go for about 40% more than 1-year. > >In article <1989Oct31.180829.8054@ddsw1.MCS.COM> Karl Denninger writes: >>Let's look at this: >> Cost Warranty Fail % >> External drive: $150 $20 13% (!) >> A500 System unit $700 $80 11% (!) >> >>Is this realistic? If it's 1 in 10 to break in the first 12 months, I'm >>not buying it. Those are TERRIBLE odds, far worse than any of the PC lines >>we handle, and far worse than any consumer product I have ever owned. > >I thought I already posted about this. If you think a $20 warranty on a >$150 item suggests a 13% failure rate, you're crazy. Nope. Not at all. See below. >I'm assuming a parts-and-labor warranty. If it takes the technician half an >hour to reseat the Denise chip, Commodore pays for it. If a switch goes bad >on the keyboard and needs to be replaced, Commodore pays for labor as well >as the part. In the rare case of a total failure, Commodore pays for >several hours worth of investigation, then for an entire replacement machine. >Let's look at $20 on a $150 external drive. Let's say we start with 100 >drives, or $2000 to pay for warranty stuff. $20 is probably a pretty typical >charge for having the technician look at something. So if that's all that >was being done, we could assume a 100% "look-at" rate. Which is rediculous. Nowhere near reality. > Now, some of those >drives are going to need more than just a cleaning, like perhaps an >alignment. If 10% need a $50 alignment, that eats $500 of the warranty >money. If 10% need alignment in a year, the drives are JUNK. We sell, use, and buy floppy drives (5.25 & 3.5") by the hundreds here, and I don't see more than half a percent back in warranty for work. Those that do come back are trashed and replaced. It's cheaper to replace them; remember, that $100 drive only cost the maker something like $50, if that. It might cost us something like $70-80. The tech time to >replace< it is about 10 minutes. The time to >fix< it is more like an hour or more, and it may break again. With the low failure rate we >actually< have, it pays to junk them and give the customer a new one. Every time. These drives are used in >business< applications 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Not a couple of hours a night once or twice a week! Before you say "cozy environment" I'll let you know that most of the machines are in use in warehouses and other places where dust is a >real< problem. We get machines in for service that have enough dust in them to choke a person five times over. Yet they still keep working..... The only way you'll have a horrible failure rate is if (1) the parts are crap to begin with, (2) assembly and initial test is deficient, leading to a high failure rate, or (3) the consumer "cokes" the drive (spills something in it). 1 & 2 are dealt with by not buying from those manufacturers. #3 is dealt with by charging the customer for the replacement, since he/she abused the equipment. >Realize that if a consumer product has a comprehensive >warranty, some owners are going to bring their product in even if it doesn't >have a specific product, just to get it "tuned up". Sure. Some will. But not most. Most people don't want to be without their gear for any period of time. Besides, warranty means "something broke; you fix it". If you want us to just "look it over" you can pay for the tech time. Our machines (and everyone else's) work the same way. So do Television warranties, VCR warranties, etc. >Yes, all the numbers are bogus. I don't know actual figures, I just know >that the warranty money gets split up a LOT more ways than just straight >replacement cost. Only if you have products that need attention a lot. >>Hell, my $1200 laser disk player has an extended warranty -- it was $80. >>But that warranty covers EVERYTHING, including routine cleanings, for FIVE >>YEARS. What you're proposing isn't a warranty, it's another profit center, >>and a darn good one at that (or the product's failure rate is unacceptable). > >This says to me that the cost of such a warranty is already figured into >your *$1000* laser disk player and that you'd be a fool not to pay the small >incremental amount to actually qualify for what you've already payed for. Wrong. The player lists, retail, for $1200. I paid $1000, or about 20% off list price. The >store< (Highland Appliance, for those who are interested) sold me the extended warranty for $80. THEY eat the cost of repair or replacement; not the manufacturer (Pioneer). If they can't fix it within 5 days if it should break, I get a NEW unit -- for FIVE YEARS after purchase. Yet I can still bring it in for cleaning if it needs it. No charge. Considering that the other stores in the area (including American in Wisconsin, which is often regarded as the "price setter" in consumer electronics) are selling these units for the same price, and they tend to be about 5-10% over cost, this is not a bad deal at all. This tells me one thing - that the units don't break often, and the $80 fairly represents the actual costs that the warrantor expects to pay. Have you ever had a laser-based product fixed? The laser head alone on those things cost over $300 -- for the PART. Labor, including a mandatory alignment on a change of that part, is somewhere in the area of 1 hour at a nominal charge of $50 or so. So one failure is at least $350 -- and that is for one part of the system. Electronics failure? $200-500, depending on what blows. Now you tell me -- how often is that player expected to break? I know one of the people who works there -- he had ONE unit back for service in over a year of selling them. One out of something like 200 units sold. Out of all the AT-class & 386 machines we have sold in the last year, we had one (1) fixed disk failure (in the first 30 days), and no other problems. If we charged an extra $100 for a one year warranty $95 of that would go straight into our pocket. Instead we add $5 to the cost of the machine and offer the one year warranty standard. As Commodore should do. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (11/08/89)
In article <516@sagpd1.UUCP> monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) writes: >In article <1989Oct31.180252.7798@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >>Ok, let me redefine that. A >cheap< plastic case. The A1000s had horribly >>cheap plastic used in their construction. Plastic that was inadaquately >>reinforced, such that if you did what appeared to be intended (place a >>monitor on top of the box) the entire thing would deform and bend! > > Which A1000 and monitor are you refering to? I've had my 1080 setting on >top of my A1000 for 4 years now and I see no signs of any bending/deforming! You're the exception. I have seen three of them, all with the same problem. All with >original< Commodore monitors. None of the systems would accept the keyboard underneath without jamming after a few months. Perhaps the later units were ok. These were early ones. > Have you been putting a 30" monitor on an A1000 and complaining about >it bending???????? Get real or better informed or dry up. Wow, an ad-hominen attack in c.s.a too! -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (11/08/89)
In article <756@dsacg2.UUCP> nor1675@dsacg2.UUCP (Michael Figg) writes: >In article <1989Oct31.180252.7798@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: >> >> What a crock. If it WAS unlikely, then there would be a year warranty, no? >> Why not, if Commodore isn't going to eat much in repairs? Or is the truth >> that the systems DO blow up often, and expensively. > >I'm not sure I can agree with this. What about the automobile industry? >The American manufacturers developed a fairly poor record for dependability >compared to the Japanese and now even if they are building much better cars >(I don't know if they are, I own a Honda) they have to offer 5 or 6 year >warranties where the Japanese only have 1 or 2 year warranties. The US makers >need the longer warranty because of their reputation. The Japanese don't need >a strong warranty program because they build much more dependable cars to >begin with. I might be alittle partial to the Japanese cars, but there >record is supported by many consumer reports. And there are exceptions to the rule too.... My parents owned a Nissan Pulsar. It had the following go wrong with it in the first three years (after the "one year" warranty ran out): 1) Dead automatic transmission, ate the clutches (~1500 to repair) 2) Cylinder head valve & camshaft failure (~1200 to repair) 3) CV joint failure (~800 to repair) All out of warranty. All >very< expensive to fix. All with proper maintenance. Would I ever buy another Nissan product? You guess. Will I buy or recommend a product that has what I consider to be a substandard warranty? Guess again. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
) Seaman) (11/17/89)
karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: < monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) writes: < >karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) writes: < >>Ok, let me redefine that. A >cheap< plastic case. The A1000s had horribly < >>cheap plastic used in their construction. Plastic that was inadaquately < >>reinforced, such that if you did what appeared to be intended (place a < >>monitor on top of the box) the entire thing would deform and bend! < > < > Which A1000 and monitor are you refering to? I've had my 1080 setting on < >top of my A1000 for 4 years now and I see no signs of any bending/deforming! < < You're the exception. I have seen three of them, all with the same problem. < All with >original< Commodore monitors. None of the systems would accept < the keyboard underneath without jamming after a few months. < < Perhaps the later units were ok. These were early ones. I have a very early release A1000 (circa September/October 1985). As a matter of fact, so does my brother, his business partner, and another good friend of mine. None of our A1000's have exhibited the problems you describe. < > Have you been putting a 30" monitor on an A1000 and complaining about < >it bending???????? Get real or better informed or dry up. < < Wow, an ad-hominen attack in c.s.a too! What do you expect? You enter a group intended for people who use a particular product, then attempt to degrade the product (and the company which produces it), and expect smiles and thank you's? It seems obvious that you do not like the Amiga, and possibly Commodore as well. If that is the case, then you are entitled to your opinion. However, you won't find a large base of support for that position here. Since you apparently prefer PC's of the MS-DOS variety, perhaps you should take your arguments to comp.sys.ibm.pc, where you may find a more receptive audience, though I doubt it. < -- < Karl Denninger -- Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | /o -- -- -- crs@cpsc6a.att.com <or> ||| -- -- - I'm Outta Here! ...!att!cpsc6a!crs |vvvv/ -- -- - The Home of the Killer Smiley |___/ -- -- --