acm131@eric.ccs.northeastern.edu (Craig Scott Lennox) (11/17/89)
One of the aspects of the Macintosh that make it a favourite amongst hackers is it infinite customisability. There are numerous hooks built right into the OS design which allow you, with sufficient documentation, to change the desktop to suit *your* tastes. Except, of course, you can't make it multitask. Enter the Amiga. A true multitasking computer which gives you more of what you use a computer for. But what my hacker friends all want to know is: Does AmigaDOS, Intuition and the Workbench have the same kind of open architecture and design hooks as their beloved Mac OS? Will they be able to hack all sorts of neat patches like Windowshade, Black Box, and BackDrop into the Workbench? Will they be able to have their 16 zillion fonts and DA's around for calling up at moment's whim? Can you cut and paste between different windows of different applications on the Amiga as easily as on the Mac? Can you store digitised graphics and sounds as resources and use them in programs as you can on the Mac? \ Being rather new to the Amiga world, I don't know the answers to these, as these answers come only with experience. I'm trying to advance the Amiga as the hacker's computer, but I need to know if the Amiga will appeal in these ways to the Mac enthusiasts I know. Thanks for any and all help, Craig.
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (11/17/89)
In article <4299@nigel.udel.EDU> acm131@eric.ccs.northeastern.edu (Craig Scott Lennox) writes: > to know is: Does AmigaDOS, Intuition and the Workbench have the same > kind of open architecture and design hooks as their beloved Mac OS? Any system routine can be replaced by your own. There are defined ways to safely do this. (And since you are multitasking, this "accepted standard" includes locking other tasks out so that they don't call your routine while you replace it). > Will they be able to hack all sorts of neat patches like Windowshade, > Black Box, and BackDrop into the Workbench? Will they be able to have WindowShade and BackDrop have similar programs (much faster) on The Amiga. I don't know what Black Box is. > their 16 zillion fonts and DA's around for calling up at moment's whim? Fonts are cached in memory and unused ones get flushed from memory when your are low. DA's? What's that? :-) In a multitasking OS everything is like a DA, only better. > Can you cut and paste between different windows of different applications Yes, but it's not generally supported. In 1.4 "it's in there"! > on the Amiga as easily as on the Mac? Can you store digitised graphics > and sounds as resources and use them in programs as you can on the Mac? Yes. No "resources" system like on the Mac, but something similar. 1.4 makes this all smoother. > Craig. Corrections gladly accepted, -Tom -- Tom Limoncelli -- limonce@pilot.njin.net Standard Disclaimer CM 1060 -- tlimonce@drunivac.bitnet P O Box 802 -- ...!rutgers!njin!drew!tlimonce Madison, NJ 07940 -- 201-408-5389 "I do not like green eggs and spam, I do not like them, Sam I am!"
don@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Donald R Lloyd) (11/17/89)
In article <4299@nigel.udel.EDU> acm131@eric.ccs.northeastern.edu (Craig Scott Lennox) writes: > > >Will they be able to hack all sorts of neat patches like Windowshade, >Black Box, and BackDrop into the Workbench? Will they be able to have > > They could, but most of that's already been done for them..... Everything you've mentioned can be (& is regularly)done with the Amiga. It is a little weak on the part about clipping out text and graphics, but it can be done with various PD programs (there is a clipboard, but nobody bothers to support it... I don't even know how to use it...). -- Gibberish .sig for sale or lease. is spoken Contact don@vax1.acs.udel.edu for more information. here. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
robin@sabre.uucp (Robin D. Wilson/1000000) (11/18/89)
In article <4299@nigel.udel.EDU> acm131@eric.ccs.northeastern.edu (Craig Scott Lennox) writes: > > >One of the aspects of the Macintosh that make it a favourite amongst >hackers is it infinite customisability. There are numerous hooks >built right into the OS design which allow you, with sufficient >documentation, to change the desktop to suit *your* tastes. Except, >of course, you can't make it multitask. > >Enter the Amiga. A true multitasking computer which gives you more >of what you use a computer for. But what my hacker friends all want >to know is: Does AmigaDOS, Intuition and the Workbench have the same >kind of open architecture and design hooks as their beloved Mac OS? >Will they be able to hack all sorts of neat patches like Windowshade, >Black Box, and BackDrop into the Workbench? Will they be able to have >their 16 zillion fonts and DA's around for calling up at moment's whim? ^^^^ Not really needed on a multitasking machine. >Can you cut and paste between different windows of different applications >on the Amiga as easily as on the Mac? Can you store digitised graphics >and sounds as resources and use them in programs as you can on the Mac? >\ > Craig. Well Craig, I too am new to the Amiga world,... inasmuch as I have just recently purchased and A500 -- but I have read comp.sys.amiga since it first changed from whatever it used to be (funny, but I can't remember the old name anymore). And I saw my first Amiga within 1 month of the announcement party. Let me tell you about customizing... I have a new font for my workbench. No more of that stinking TOPAZ. (I used "FED" provided by the Extra's 1.3.2 diskette that came with Amy, to make my own font -- more like a serif font.) I have Csh provided by one of the Fish disks (great program, I really like the ability to use my easy to remember "UNIX" commands ;-) ). Last night, I used Image-ed (another fish disk product) to draw a new trashcan ICON. My workbench colors are completely different than the defaults, I use a sort of khaki background, with navy blue letters, maroon 3rd color, and light blue 4th color -- looks great, all supplied with the preferences. I have played with a program (can't remember the name; though) that will allow me to use an IFF image as my background screen (another fish disk). My pointer has changed from the default -- bloated arrow -- to a cross-hair, to a more precise black and red arrow (looks more like a Mac pointer, but tomorrow -- who knows?) The Icons for all of my PD disk collection (~20 so far) range from regular diskette's to fish to huge eye catching pictures. I use VLT4.226 for modem communication (Thanks to SLAC, and Fred Fish again), and I must say I have never seen a better comm package (and I've used several on the Mac and PC's and on my UNIX workstation here at work). My dad has a Mac II, and I have used it extensively (he still calls me to find out how to do things on it), but for sheer ease of customization the Amy blows the Mac away. (Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I have several ARP* commands replacing my original OS commands and intend to get the full ARP set later on.) *ARP == the AmigaDos Replacement Project, these commands swap out with the standard Amiga commands, to provide the same function, but usually more speed, more function, and/or less space. Try swapping out some of the standard Mac commands, I bet RES-ED stuff to do that would be crazy. Just my opinion. No need to start an Anti-Mac war, I just BELIEVE I am right! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |The views expressed herein, are the sole responsibility of the typist at hand| +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |USNail: UUCP: | |2323 Wells Branch Pkwy., #G107 cs.utexas.edu!romp!ibmaus!auschs\ | |Austin, TX 78728 !sabre.austin.ibm.com!robin | |Home: (512)251-6889 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (11/18/89)
The Amiga is *more* customizable than the Macintosh and it multitasks so
you needn't worry there. In fact there are a zillion things you can explore
in an Amiga and not once get bored. When you find a bug (and there are a
few) send it to cbmvax!bugs and lo and behold it will get fixed! They seem
to run about an 18month release cycle.
The posting asked a another question which Amiga users like to snicker at
which is "Will I still have access to a zillion 'desk accessories'?" to
which the smug Amiga person will reply "We call them programs, and generally
they are all available all the time. If you have the memory, you can run
this program." It's sort of a wild concept for some users. But a friend of
mine who is a Mac fan brought up the point that the reason DAs were neat
was that they were sitting on the menu bar waiting to be accessed at any
time. My initial response was that on the Amiga you could, if you chose,
collect all of your favorite little utility programs and put them in a
drawer on the RAM disk and then just start one when you wanted to use it.
Not quite as convientient as the menu selection but close. Of course there
are hacks that let you add things to the menu bar, and some programs even
have commands available to have things added to their menu bar. One can
do this much more easily in the 1.4 workbench environment I understand.
But what struck me was that what I would *really* like to do would be to
have ready access to resident programs. [You know the ones with a shared
text segment so that you don't have to have a copy in the ram disk and a
copy executing when you run them.] Now it seems a wee bit silly to have
a resident icon, but I thought "Why not?" Can we make a workbench accessible
user interface to the list of Resident programs? Any ideas on what it
should look like? Generally resident programs are for the CLI environment
and don't know about WB parameter passing, would it help to have some sort
of notification on the resident command ? I was thinking that if you dragged
a tool icon out of it's disk drawer window and onto the backdrop that should
make it resident. Then you could just click on it and go. Comments? Ideas?
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@Eng.Sun.COM
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"If it didn't have bones in it, it wouldn't be crunchy now would it?!"alh@hprmokg.HP.COM (Al Harrington) (11/20/89)
One thing that really impresses me with the Amiga is that Commodore
has published books that tell you everything you wanted to know about
the Amiga. You'll get more "C" examples than you know what to do
with. I don't think (could be wrong) that Apple has done this with
the Mac.
As for customizing your "desk"... A friend with an Atari complained
about not being able to customize the desk accessories on the Amiga.
I have a neat program called "HandyIcons" and "EliteWB" that I use to
put my own menu bar on the Workbench screen (it uses the "debug" menu
of WB). I can add anything I want to that menu. I'm not sure how
many I can add, but it's around 20 programs.
Until I get my 2 MB expansion (any day now! :-) I don't spend too
much time in Workbench -- which is another great feature of the Amiga.
You aren't stuck to icons/windows if you don't want to be. Even *if*
the Amiga wasn't as customizable as the Mac (which isn't true) the
fact that it multitasks would make up for that.
---
Al Harrington
ARPA: alh@hprmo.HP.COM
UUCP: ..{hplabs,hp-sde}!hprmo!alh
** My comments do not reflect the views of my employer **nsw@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (Neil Weinstock) (11/22/89)
In article <128072@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: [ ... ] >But what struck me was that what I would *really* like to do would be to >have ready access to resident programs. [You know the ones with a shared >text segment so that you don't have to have a copy in the ram disk and a >copy executing when you run them.] Now it seems a wee bit silly to have >a resident icon, but I thought "Why not?" Can we make a workbench accessible >user interface to the list of Resident programs? Any ideas on what it >should look like? Generally resident programs are for the CLI environment >and don't know about WB parameter passing, would it help to have some sort >of notification on the resident command ? I was thinking that if you dragged >a tool icon out of it's disk drawer window and onto the backdrop that should >make it resident. Then you could just click on it and go. Comments? Ideas? Unfortunately, I'm not privy to what's going on in the 1.4 Workbench, so it's hard to fold any ideas into what's already there. I like your idea of just dragging an icon onto the desktop to make it resident, but I don't know how that will interact with 1.4's iconification feature. My guess (for what it's worth) would be that iconified programs would go on the backdrop. So how would you tell the difference between a REZed (I use REZ) program and an iconified program? Would it even be necessary to tell the difference? What if someone iconifies a REZed program? OOOF! OK, how about this for the "ultimate" REZ implementation. I don't know how feasible it would be, but here goes anyway. You create a resident.device. This would have an icon on the workbench, ala RAM:. To make something resident, you would drag its icon from it's window to the RESIDENT: window. To make a CLI program resident, you'd just copy it to RESIDENT:. If RESIDENT: gets a file without an associated .info file, it creates a default icon for it in the window (since 1.4 will do this, we'd want to be consistent). If a .info file is copied into RESIDENT:, then it will only be accepted if there's already a program with the same name in RESIDENT: (I'm a little shaky on this part). So, if you wanted to move stuff into the RESIDENT: window in your startup-sequence, you could just do "copy foo foo.info to RESIDENT:" and everything would work like you'd expect. To summarize, RESIDENT: would operate almost identically to RAM:, except you'd get that shared text segment operation. Note that you'd probably (though not necessarily) want RESIDENT: to provide a file system-like interface, though it would presumably not support subdirectories. That way, if I wanted to remove something from RESIDENT:, I could do "delete RESIDENT:foo", etc. etc. To actually run resident programs from the Workbench, you'd double click the icons in the RESIDENT: window. To get the CLI usage, you'd just put RESIDENT: as the first thing in your path. It seems to me that this would be much more consistent with the rest of the system than the current REZing schemes, which seem to be very "special-case"ish. Unfortunately I don't know enough about device drivers or AmigaDOS to try doing this, but I can't see why it couldn't be done under 1.3 by some enterprising individual, barring Unforeseen Technical Unfeasibility [TM]. One *disadvantage* to this scheme from the user's standpoint is that he/she's gotta keep that RESIDENT: window around, cluttering up the screen. Oh well, I guess these programs could always be put in a Workbench menu if it was undesirable to waste that space on Workbench. Comments? ________________ __________________ ____________________________ //// \\// \\// \\\\ \\\\ Neil Weinstock //\\ att!cord!nsw or //\\ "Oh dear, now I shall have //// //// AT&T Bell Labs \\// nsw@cord.att.com \\// to create more Martians." \\\\ \\\\________________//\\__________________//\\____________________________////
jdm@gryphon.COM (John Mesiavech) (11/23/89)
Regarding "resident Workbench programs", there's a number of ways to implement such that are LOTS easier than the proposed "resident.device" (an abstruse name for the RAM DIsk). 1) (and easiest) Simply allow normal icons (such as TOOL, or PROJECT, or DRAWER) to be put on the Workbench screen. This would require a slight modification to the Disk icon structure, to include the list of desktop icons on the disk. Not hard to do, and adds REAMS of usefulness to the system. Just ask anyone who's used a Mac.... that's had this style of system for years. And all it requires is an addition to the Disk icon structure! An objection to this system was made by one person in comp.sys.amiga, who said that such a system would get confusing with iconified programs. Let me ask that person this: So what? If someone's weird enough to make a program icon look like a window icon, that's his problem. He can certainly change it easily enough! 2) Isn't there a Tool menu being added to WB 1.4? Wher eyou can install your own goodies? Again, what's the hoopla? I vote ffor having icons on the desktop! John -- 0-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-0 | There once was a signature here, but I dunno where it went. | | ------------------------------------------------ | | jdm@gryphon.COM -- or-- <anywhere>!hplabs!gryphon!jdm | 0-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-0
w-stephm@microsoft.UUCP (Stephan Mueller) (11/24/89)
In article <23520001@hprmokg.HP.COM> alh@hprmokg.HP.COM (Al Harrington) writes: >As for customizing your "desk"... A friend with an Atari complained >about not being able to customize the desk accessories on the Amiga. >I have a neat program called "HandyIcons" and "EliteWB" that I use to >put my own menu bar on the Workbench screen (it uses the "debug" menu >of WB). I can add anything I want to that menu. I'm not sure how >many I can add, but it's around 20 programs. Nobody has yet mentioned the ultimate in customizability - Jazzbench, a complete replacement for the standard Commodore Workbench. Besides having many neat features as standard equipment (like DropShadow), Jazzbench lets you add your own stuff quite easily. If replacing the Workbench itself isn't enough customizability for you... My Amiga is 3000 miles away so I can't be more specific about the features and stuff. Maybe somebody else can fill in the details. I do remember version 0.8 came through comp.binaries.amiga sometime this summer; is there a newer version out yet? stephan();
bn@attcc.UUCP (11/24/89)
> I believe there was a discussion here a few weeks ago about > a quality control problem with recent Seagate drives, involving Actually, if I remember correctly, the problem wasn't with the Seagate drives but with the Quantam drives. Bo Najdrovsky UUCP: att!mwood!attcc!bn INET: mwood!attcc!bn@ATT.ATT.COM
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (11/27/89)
Jazzbench -- 0.8 is the last... Sorry, I'm working on it -- VERY SLOWLY... It'd be easier if I could just *QUIT* school, social life -- maybe life in general, but for some reason I'm unwilling to do that.. :) Thanks for the compliment -- for those getting a lot of crashes, I'd suggest not running WBTool if you can do without it... David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu
wicks@umbc3.UMBC.EDU (Mr. Tony Wicks ) (12/02/89)
I likke the idea of a RESIDENT:, but I woul prefer to see it be part
of the regular filesystem such that:
1) on the boot disk/partition you would find a directory :resident,
2) RESIDENT: nominally points to sys:resident but could be pointed elsewhere,
3) all the executables in the subdirectories of RESIDENT: would also become
resident,
4) I am not sure I really want #3.
Tony Wicks
wicks@mst1.bal.mmc.com, wicks@umbc3.umbc.edu