craig@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Craig Hubley) (11/28/89)
OK, so I'm actually calling for experience instead of providing it - sue me.
This is cross-posted to .tech because I imagine anyone who has solved tech
problems in this area (if nobody comes forward and admits doing the above)
will be found there, but the answers will be of interest to anyone planning
to expand an A1000. Since the above is the cheapest way to get a Mac II
clone and loaded Amiga running, I imagine there'll be some interest in it...
Is anyone running the above combination (perhaps with an accelerator other
than LUCAS/FRANCES), or anything close to it ? What problems have you had?
I intend to load up my Amiga with the above configuration - the FRANCES will
be full of RAM, the chassis will be reliable at 7.16 MHz, the HD will be a
standard SCSI because I want to buy big and be able to move it eventually to
another machine, probably a Unix machine. The AMAX is there simply because
it's the cheapest Mac II I can imagine, given the rest of the configuration,
and I need a Mac II.
Things I am concerned about:
- Chassis disliking the 16-20 MHz processor.
- SCSI interface disliking the 68020's cacheing.
- unnamed future cards disliking either of the above.
- AMAX assuming bad things about the processor speed or hard drive.
- Partitioning the hard drive between Amiga and Mac.
- Transferring files between Amiga and Mac.
- Running an external Mac floppy from the faster Amiga - since the Mac drive
is software-controlled, does the new speed affect things negatively?
- Power load for the whole mess.
Since hardware-hacking A1000s like this has begun to be the rage, I imagine
this will be a much-discussed set of questions.
Thanks, email responses appreciated, and I'll sum it all up to the net.
If it works, this will scare hell out of the local Mac dealers... heh heh.
Now, isn't that worthwhile ? C'mon, folks, tell me this is going to work.
Craig Hubley
--
Craig Hubley -------------------------------------
Craig Hubley & Associates "Lead, follow, or get out of the way"
craig@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca -------------------------------------
craig@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu mnetor!utgpu!craig@uunet.UU.NETportuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) (11/28/89)
>>>>> On 28 Nov 89 00:34:33 GMT, craig@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Craig Hubley) said:
craig> the answers will be of interest to anyone planning
craig> to expand an A1000. Since the above is the cheapest way to get a Mac II
craig> clone and loaded Amiga running, I imagine there'll be some interest in it...
Two points:
1) while it may be the cheapest way to get a Mac *emulation*
and a loaded Amiga running, it certainly doesn't sound like the most
reliable. Depending on your particular machine, A1000's can be very
difficult to upgrade. In fact, you outlined many potential expansion
problems yourself.
2) AMAX is Mac *emulation*. You aren't getting a Mac II
clone, by any stretch of the imagination. The emulation you are
getting is closer to an SE/030 than it is to a II. You aren't getting
any of the following:
* the NuBus and color video. Does the AMAX support color
video in its emulation?
* the other half of the 256K ROMs in the II series, or the
512K ROM in the IIci.
* a memory management unit. When System 7.0 comes out next
year, this and the expanded ROMS are going to make your
emulation rather obsolete. If you are going to have need of
your "Mac II" in the future, you should consider this
carefully (as well as anybody contemplating buying a real
Macintosh with anything less than an '020 in it).
craig> and I need a Mac II.
If you really, truly need a Mac II (as in you have to depend on it to
get something important done), you should buy one instead of spending
the money on making your A1000 a Mac wanna-be. You can get
educational discounts, and people are selling used Mac II's in
anticipation of upgrading to newer models.
craig> If it works, this will scare hell out of the local Mac dealers... heh heh.
I doubt it. Most people who buy Macs buy them to get a job done.
They aren't interested or knowledgable enough to kludge togther
several piecese of obscure, potentially incompatible hardware and
software to arrive at a solution that still isn't as good as the real
thing for their needs. And given that very few of them know anything
about the Amiga, it would be difficult to justify to them how they
could benefit from owning an Amiga, especially if the Mac is capable
of meeting their needs on its own.
I'm not trying to slam your effort; putting together anything,
including an '020-based Mac emulation, via the hacker route is a
groovy project, saves money, and is a lot of fun. But you also have
to be realistic: it has its limitations, and it is not a solution for
the computer consumer, a much different person than the computer
enthusiast.
--M
--
__
\/ Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Inc.
portuesi@SGI.COM
"you might not think so now,
but just you wait and see..." --Kate Bushbmacintyre@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Blair MacIntyre) (11/29/89)
craig@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Craig Hubley) writes: >Since the above is the cheapest way to get a Mac II >clone and loaded Amiga running, I imagine there'll be some interest in it... [....] >The AMAX is there simply because >it's the cheapest Mac II I can imagine, given the rest of the configuration, >and I need a Mac II. Sorry to burst your bubble, but this will give you a souped up SE or something of that ilk. The MacII is more than just a faster Mac. ( I don't have one, I work with one. I'm an 4 year Amiga owner ... ) No wars please. I want to nip this baby in the bud before we start a "The MacII is can be emulated on an Amiga 1000" war ... -- -- Blair MacIntyre, Professional Leech on Society ( aka CS Graduate Student ) -- bmacintyre@{watcgl, watdragon, violet}.{waterloo.edu, UWaterloo.ca} -- Dating, verb: prearranged socializing with intent.
jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Jim Wright) (11/29/89)
portuesi@sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) writes: | * a memory management unit. When System 7.0 comes out next | year, this and the expanded ROMS are going to make your | emulation rather obsolete. If you are going to have need of | your "Mac II" in the future, you should consider this | carefully (as well as anybody contemplating buying a real | Macintosh with anything less than an '020 in it). Actually, a plain ole MacII will also be obsolete by this criterion. But it will be easier to upgrade than AMAX--all you have to do is throw more money at it. (No snide comment included...really. :-) -- Jim Wright jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (11/30/89)
in article <2035@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu>, jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Jim Wright) says: > > portuesi@sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) writes: > | * a memory management unit. When I run AMAX on my A2500/30, it has a memory management unit. > | the expanded ROMS Currently, of course, you have to use the 128K ROMs. There's no obvious reason why the 256K ROMs couldn't be used with an enhanced AMAX. It'll be interesting to see what Apple does about this. There will be plenty of real Macs with '030s and 128K ROMs (like all those accelerated Mac SEs that go faster than Mac IIxs). Apple could easily refuse to kick in the virtual memory aspects of their release 7.0 OS based on older ROMs if they wanted to. It wouldn't be real popular, and there's no technical reason for it, but it'll be interesting to see what they do. > Actually, a plain ole MacII will also be obsolete by this criterion. > But it will be easier to upgrade than AMAX--all you have to do is throw > more money at it. (No snide comment included...really. :-) And '851s are cheaper than accelerator boards in any case. Also, Apple stands to gain a rather large piece of change swapping SE motherboards for SE/30 boards; another reason for them to avoid accelerator support. They're not really open, after all. > Jim Wright > jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (11/30/89)
In article <PORTUESI.89Nov28102513@tweezers.esd.sgi.com> portuesi@sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) writes: > 2) AMAX is Mac *emulation*. You aren't getting a Mac II >clone, by any stretch of the imagination. The emulation you are >getting is closer to an SE/030 than it is to a II. You aren't getting >any of the following: A Mac SE/30 has color QuickDraw in ROM. So an AMAX+68020 is closer to a Mac Plus or SE with an 020 accelerator. The other thing you don't get with any Mac emulator is LocalTalk support. That's something which the majority of business users want. -- Larry Rosenstein, Object Specialist Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave, MS 46-B Cupertino, CA 95014 AppleLink:Rosenstein1 domain:lsr@Apple.COM UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!lsr
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (11/30/89)
In article <8756@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > Currently, of course, you have to use the 128K ROMs. There's no > obvious reason why the 256K ROMs couldn't be used with an enhanced > AMAX. It depends on how much software AMAX needs to interface the ROMs. The 256K ROMs are totally different from the 128K ROMs. (Actually, there are several different 256K ROMs.) > There will be plenty of real Macs with '030s and 128K ROMs (like > all those accelerated Mac SEs that go faster than Mac IIxs). > Apple could easily refuse to kick in the virtual memory aspects > of their release 7.0 OS based on older ROMs if they wanted to. This has been an issue. Until System 7 comes out it is hard to tell if accelerated Mac SEs will be able to use VM. My guess is that they will, unless the 030 board maker really screws up. (It would make no sense for Apple to screw its customers just to spite a few Amiga owners.)
lsr%apple.com@cunyvm.cuny.edu (12/06/89)
In article <8756@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: > Currently, of course, you have to use the 128K ROMs. There's no > obvious reason why the 256K ROMs couldn't be used with an enhanced > AMAX. It depends on how much software AMAX needs to interface the ROMs. The 256K ROMs are totally different from the 128K ROMs. (Actually, there are several different 256K ROMs.) > There will be plenty of real Macs with '030s and 128K ROMs (like > all those accelerated Mac SEs that go faster than Mac IIxs). > Apple could easily refuse to kick in the virtual memory aspects > of their release 7.0 OS based on older ROMs if they wanted to. This has been an issue. Until System 7 comes out it is hard to tell if accelerated Mac SEs will be able to use VM. My guess is that they will, unless the 030 board maker really screws up. (It would make no sense for Apple to screw its customers just to spite a few Amiga owners.)