waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (01/10/90)
I saw an article in Amiga Resource about an editor who traveled around
the world seeing what the Amiga was doing in other countries. Since I
just got back from Japan I was interested to see what he had to say about
Japan. This was my seventh or eight time to be in Japan although I was
only there for 17 days this time working and I was able to visit many
computer stores and talk to quite a few people. I was even able to go
to the Panasonic and Fujitsu showrooms. The impression I got was very
different than this editor. I can only say that prehaps he doesn't know
his way around and doesn't have an effective way to handle the language.
(My Japanese is very poor and my reading level is below 1st grade but
my wife is Japanese so I often use her help, I take her along with me
most of the time.)
My bone with this editor is that he just waves off the Fujitsu FM Towns
computer with a couple of sloppy lines and jumps on to other topics. He
is correct about some things in Japan like the Nec 9801 is king, and
software is slower in coming. However he gives the Amiga 10,000 times
more importance than it has ever had in Japan. In fact I took an
Amiga 1000 with me this last trip mainly because I didn't want to risk
my new 25Mhz 386 graphics work-stations (up to 512x512 32000 colors!), also
it is nice not having any problems with customs since no one buys Amigas
in Japan. Having it there gave me the impression that no one knew what
an Amiga was. Sure many people have heard of the Amiga, just like most
Americans have heard of Pachinko, but how many actually have had hands
on experience -- almost none!
This editor seemed to think the FM Towns was a very minor thing but from
my point of view the FM Towns seems to be the Amiga of Japan. Yet it is
more than an Amiga it is what the Amiga should be now. It is new
and prehaps a real threat to the NEC computers since Fujitsu is pushing
it in a very big way. In fact I bet everyone in Japan knows about the
FM Towns or at least as heard about it. Can we say the same about the
Amiga?
So just what is an FM towns? Well it is the closest thing to a multi-
media computer I've seen to date, not only is it as neat as the Amiga
and seem to have very feature of the Amiga (many enhanced) but it can
run IBM software. This is a very serious machine. I used to think that
pc clones had no real place in multi-media, video work, etc. but, the
the FM Towns has coverted me!
The basic $3000 dollars system gives you the following:
(Please note that $3000 is very reasonable in Japan and translates to
maybe $1700 in the US mailorder)
1. RGB analog monitor. (Probably not multi-sync)
2. Keyboard and mouse. (Often separate items in Japan)
3. The system unit - containing (About 2/3 size of A2000)
a. 16Mhz 386 with 1 Meg RAM
b. Graphics card with 512K ram I believe.
c. CD-ROM with a mini stereo so that you can also listen to your
CD's when not using the the CD.
d. Of coarse very good sound although I don't know anything about
the sound hardware - but I heard some pretty great stuff.
e. Expansion slots. I don't know the specs on these but it seems
there is at least several available.
Now the user interface is what of a cross between GEM, Amiga Desktop
and the Mac. It seems easy to use. (Although I had some problems
with some of the menu selections since my Japanese is sub par.) The
graphics seem very fast compared to an Amiga and very colorful. It
is possible to have multiple graphics screens and in the resolution
area the machine really shines. Basic modes very all the way from
360 x 240 x 32000 colors (NTSC res. mode) to 640 x 480 x 256 colors
out of a palette of 24 million. Seems like many modes/combinations of
modes are possible. Compare Amiga graphics to the FM Towns is like comparing
a bw Mac to a color MAC II.
Software
--------
At least a 100 major pieces of software not even counting of the IBM
stuff. A lot of games, business, and some graphics tools. One 3D system
which seems to be mostly a solid modeling based system and a very hot
ray-tracer. Remember that this is a new system. Oh yes it seems that a
great deal of IBM pc software that can also run on it.
Some of the software felt way too fast for a 16MHz 386. So I bet some
programs were compiled for a native 386 and not in 8086 code and most
pc programs. (The interface seems really snappy, quick clean and easy
to use.)
Finally that are about ten or twenty different CD disk applications so
far. Some are just public domain such others are complete software packages
like the "Video Bible". The Video Bible is a large database of video's
released in Japan. It has a slick point and klick interface and with it
you can read about many videos, listen to part of the sound-track from the
video and even look at the jacket cover from the video in 32000 colors!
There were 20 or 30 options but I was only able to figure out a few since
my Japanese is so limited and my wife was elsewhere when I was playing with
it.
I don't know if the FM Towns supports CD-I, but I suppose it is possible.
Some of the applications looked like it but there wasn't huge amounts of
animation in anything. However the CD ROMS are clearly used for data,
programs, music and seem very flexible. Many announcements of new CD-ROMS
coming out were to be seen everywhere.
Hardware Expansion
------------------
Floating point math co-processors
Several different sizes and types of hard disks.
Two different NTSC video cards - $300 to $500 dollars
MIDI boards (Maybe this is where the great music came from)
SCSI, RS422, and many kinds of I/O boards.
At least one kind of LAN maybe more.
Memory expansion of coarse.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I was really impressed by what saw, heard and felt when looking at or
using the FM Towns. Many of the demo's contained things that couldn't
be done in any reasonable fashion on an Amiga. (Except that I wasn't
over impressed with some of the smooth scrolling, my Animation:Titler
program can do that better, but maybe that demo was poorly written and
I am very biased.). Some things just simply amazed me and it has been
a long time since a computer has amazed me.
So I'll try to be fair. The Amiga is currently a 1985 computer. If the
Amiga 3000 is to complete with stuff like the FM Towns it will need to
be a 1990 computer! Still in 1985 the Amiga was amazing almost unbelievable.
So I don't want to step on the Amiga too hard, also just think of the
1980 (mostly CP/M computers!). Still the Amiga was something to get
really excited about. Now I think the FM Towns is a 1990 version of the
Amiga. If the Amiga 3000 never comes out maybe Fujitsu will sell the
FM Town system here.
Wayne Knapp
cknight@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (King Claudius) (01/10/90)
I'm sorry, but this FM Towns sounds just like another PC clone to me...what's the big deal with it? -- cknight@polyslo.calpoly.edu ---King Claudius---
creubank@crls.sony.co.jp (Curtis Eubanks) (01/10/90)
In article <5337@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) writes: >[...] >My bone with this editor is that he just waves off the Fujitsu FM Towns >computer with a couple of sloppy lines and jumps on to other topics. He >[...] > Having it there gave me the impression that no one knew what >an Amiga was. Sure many people have heard of the Amiga, just like most >Americans have heard of Pachinko, but how many actually have had hands >on experience -- almost none! Yes, this is exactly the case. A few people know what the Amiga is, but most don't. I have been thinking the same thoughts about the FM Town as Wayne. It's really an awesome machine -- definitely the Amiga of Japan. There's one in my office not ten feet away from me right now. Fujitsu is spending a fortune on advertising for it as well. Probably the main reason that the Amiga never had a chance in Japan is the lack of support for the Japanese language. The Amiga has none! Why is this? Both the MacIntosh and IBM PC can support kanji and kana (sometimes a bit painfully). >This editor seemed to think the FM Towns was a very minor thing but from >my point of view the FM Towns seems to be the Amiga of Japan. Yet it is >more than an Amiga it is what the Amiga should be now. It is new >and prehaps a real threat to the NEC computers since Fujitsu is pushing >it in a very big way. In fact I bet everyone in Japan knows about the >FM Towns or at least as heard about it. Can we say the same about the >Amiga? >So just what is an FM towns? Well it is the closest thing to a multi- >media computer I've seen to date, not only is it as neat as the Amiga >and seem to have very feature of the Amiga (many enhanced) but it can >run IBM software. This is a very serious machine. >[long description of FM Towns omitted] >I was really impressed by what saw, heard and felt when looking at or >using the FM Towns. Many of the demo's contained things that couldn't >be done in any reasonable fashion on an Amiga. >[...] Some things just simply amazed me and it has been >a long time since a computer has amazed me. I felt like crying when I first saw it. My poor Amiga had been bested. I doubt if the FM Towns will become available in the US (all the software will have to be modified to be in English), but who knows. It's still quite new here and not yet popular. Last month, Fujitsu was at the International Conference on Multimedia '89 promoting the FM Towns multimedia software alongside IBM, Apple, and all the Japanese giants. Mostly educational software and games, but very impressive ones. >So I'll try to be fair. The Amiga is currently a 1985 computer. If the >Amiga 3000 is to complete with stuff like the FM Towns it will need to >be a 1990 computer! Still in 1985 the Amiga was amazing almost >unbelievable. >So I don't want to step on the Amiga too hard, also just think of the >1980 (mostly CP/M computers!). Still the Amiga was something to get >really excited about. Now I think the FM Towns is a 1990 version of the >Amiga. If the Amiga 3000 never comes out maybe Fujitsu will sell the >FM Town system here. > Wayne Knapp The Towns still doesn't have UNIX. (Well I guess we don't either!) All I can say is "Go Commodore!" Gambatte! And one more thing: the FM Towns *doesn't* multi-task! -creubank [don't reply to the address in the header--use creubank@media-lab.media.mit.edu] -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Curtis Eubanks creubank@crls.sony.co.jp Sony Corporate Research Labs creubank@media-lab.media.mit.edu Information Systems creubank@crls.sony.junet -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
portuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) (01/10/90)
>>>>> On 10 Jan 90 16:16:17 GMT, waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) said: wayne> In article <25aa930b.37ff@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU>, cknight@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (King Claudius) writes: > > I'm sorry, but this FM Towns sounds just like another > PC clone to me...what's the big deal with it? wayne> At the lowest level it could be considered just a PC clone, however at the wayne> higher end from the stuff I saw, it breaks ground that Amiga can't even wayne> begin to tread in. From the things I saw I would have to say that the wayne> FM Towns is far more suited for Video/Animation/Sound Production/Multi- wayne> Tasking/Multi-Media applications than the Amiga is. The big deal is that wayne> I never realised just how far behind the Amiga is getting until I saw the wayne> FM Towns. Ummm, could you give us some examples of the sort of things that were running on the FM Towns that is beyond the current state of the art of Amiga technology? I'm not trying to challenge your claim -- rather, I am more interested in hearing about the things you saw that led you to this conclusion. From everything you've mentioned so far, it doesn't seem to me that the FM Town is much more than a PC clone with a nifty graphics card and a CD-ROM drive attached to it. That's certainly nothing to be excited about. What kind of software are these things running? What do they do? wayne> However, as an aside I should say that the Japanese computers have always wayne> been ahead in graphics at least in the small computer area. Japanese wayne> computer hardware seems to be really good stuff. I saw genlocking of wayne> computer graphics onto video in 1984 on cheap MSX computers, it must have wayne> been late 1986 before it was easy to get a genlock for the Amiga. The MSX standard was based on the same display chip used many years previously in the TI-99/4A. The Japanese certainly weren't breaking new ground in display technology there. The MSX machines competed with each other on the basis of the accessories they offered, such as built-in MIDI support or genlocks hardware. It sounds like the "FM Towns" are the same concept applied in PC/Clone arena instead of the 8-bit home computer arena. --M -- __ \/ Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Inc. portuesi@SGI.COM Entry Systems Division -- Engineering
waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (01/11/90)
In article <25aa930b.37ff@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU>, cknight@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (King Claudius) writes: > > I'm sorry, but this FM Towns sounds just like another > PC clone to me...what's the big deal with it? At the lowest level it could be considered just a PC clone, however at the higher end from the stuff I saw, it breaks ground that Amiga can't even begin to tread in. From the things I saw I would have to say that the FM Towns is far more suited for Video/Animation/Sound Production/Multi- Tasking/Multi-Media applications than the Amiga is. The big deal is that I never realised just how far behind the Amiga is getting until I saw the FM Towns. Also I saw some pretty good graphics on the NEC computers, but I think the FM Towns is a system that really has all the things needed to be a great desktop Multi-Media system with adding massive amounts of hardware or software. However, as an aside I should say that the Japanese computers have always been ahead in graphics at least in the small computer area. Japanese computer hardware seems to be really good stuff. I saw genlocking of computer graphics onto video in 1984 on cheap MSX computers, it must have been late 1986 before it was easy to get a genlock for the Amiga. Wayne Knapp
waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (01/11/90)
It has been pointed out that the FM Towns isn't multi-tasking. I wasn't
sure. I saw an some stuff that lead my believe it was, but I was most
likely fooled. Sorry about the mis-information.
However, there are several multi-tasking solutions for 80386 machines,
and the 80386 hardware is more suited for mult-tasking than plain 68000.
Multi-taking is most likely going to be standard on every machine in a
few years so I don't see too much problem in this area. I still think
the FM Towns is very impressive.
Wayne Knapppapa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (01/11/90)
In article <5345@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) writes: >FM Towns is far more suited for Video/Animation/Sound Production/Multi- ^^^^^ >Tasking/Multi-Media applications than the Amiga is. ^^^^^^^ FM Towns does not have multi-tasking. And don't expect it any time soon. And genlocks have existed well before 1984. The Amiga was the first one to provide quite a number of inexpensive ones and a few of professional quality at the same time. Making bold statements like the above, really diminishes the quality of your message, which was otherwise interesting. -- Marco Papa 'Doc' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (01/11/90)
In article <5351@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) writes: >It has been pointed out that the FM Towns isn't multi-tasking. I wasn't >sure. I saw an some stuff that lead my believe it was, but I was most >likely fooled. Sorry about the mis-information. Better get your facts straight the next time. Misinformation on a public forum like this one is the worse thing I can think of. >However, there are several multi-tasking solutions for 80386 machines, >and the 80386 hardware is more suited for mult-tasking than plain 68000. Another (please permit me) "stupid" remark. Instead of comparing apples and oranges why don't you compare chips of "comparable" price/performance. Is a 68030 less suited than a 80386 for multitasking? Besides, a 68000 multitasks just fine. It has on my Amiga since 1985. >Multi-taking is most likely going to be standard on every machine in a >few years so I don't see too much problem in this area. How about today? Or 1985? Got any idea of the memory requirements for "decent" multi-tasking on OS/2 or UNIX? And why do you change subject when somebody points out shortcomings of your "impressive" machine. Naughty boy :-) -- Marco Papa 'Doc' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (01/12/90)
In article <PORTUESI.90Jan10112905@tweezers.esd.sgi.com>, portuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) writes: > w> At the lowest level it could be considered just a PC clone, however at the > w> higher end from the stuff I saw, it breaks ground that Amiga can't even > w> begin to tread in. From the things I saw I would have to say that the > w> FM Towns is far more suited for Video/Animation/Sound Production/Multi- > w> Tasking/Multi-Media applications than the Amiga is. The big deal is that > w> I never realised just how far behind the Amiga is getting until I saw the > w> FM Towns. > Ummm, could you give us some examples of the sort of things that were > running on the FM Towns that is beyond the current state of the art of > Amiga technology? I'm not trying to challenge your claim -- rather, I > am more interested in hearing about the things you saw that led you to > this conclusion. Glad you asked. Outside of the Multi-Tasking (which I consider VERY minor and VERY easy to add) I believe that everything I've said is true. One problem we face that we get so wrapped up in our Amigas that we don't look at what is going on in the rest of the world. So what make the FM Towns so great? Well to large extent it is the same things that make the NEXT machine interesting. Not much new ground was broken with the NEXT but the machine takes many good things and wraps them into a nice system. Next thing we know people are crazy about the NEXT. Well the FM Towns is sort of like that. It isn't that it pushes that edge of technology or anything (16MHz 386 system is pretty run of the mill these days) but it is a how system. Everything is working together and it is a case where the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. One thing that helps it a lot is the Fujitsu is really supporting it and and it is a complete system. Take hardware as an example. The FM Towns comes with at least a floppy, CD-ROM, 1 or 2 Megs memory (max. of 8) and a SCSI interface. Then Fujitsu also supplies the following thing if you are willing to pay for them: (I now looking a Fujitsu catalog) * 4 different keyboards, additional keypad, 2 different monitors * 4 kinds of mouse or joystick type input devices * Laser printer with some kind of color support * 9 other kinds of printers, and even all the needed cables, etc. * 6 kinds of hard disks ranging from 20MB 25msec to 315MB 18msec * a 20MB or 120MB tape backup units * 3 kinds of floppy disks * memory expansion in 1 or 2 MB sizes * To NSTC cards (I believe one can also do frame grapping) * 80387 daugther board * 1200 baud modem card * additional SCSI ports * some kind of Addition serial expansion that can be used with MIDI * A normal MIDI interface card * RS-232C with two ports card * a color scanner * 1200 and a 2400 baud external modem * 2 kinds of pen plotters * extern stereo speakers These are the things that Fujitsu sells and supports. I don't even know what all the 3rd party stuff is. The point is that Fujitsu (and other Japanese companys) sells a complete system and supports it. None of this crazy having to use stuff from 8 different vendors to get a half- way reasonable system stuff. You can get what you need and it works well together. However it wasn't the hardware that impressed me so much but the stuff I saw running on it. Read on ... > From everything you've mentioned so far, it doesn't seem to me that > the FM Town is much more than a PC clone with a nifty graphics card > and a CD-ROM drive attached to it. That's certainly nothing to be > excited about. What kind of software are these things running? What > do they do? I have in front of me about six or seven application notes and catalogs for the FM Towns. All this stuff was freely avaible for the taking at most computer stores. In these broshires I can see some of the following: * Complete Image processing hardware/software * a C-Trace ray-tracer that has output as good and any Amiga ray-tracer. (One picture of 3 cats in a alley is really neat) * A application note on using the FM Towns hardware and painting tools to do cel animation. * All kinds of business software * A word processing package called FM-OASYS that provides many word processing tools on a CD-ROM * Some very graphics even somewhat 3D educational software * Several hunderd games (it seems) that all look like they have fantasic graphics/sound. All kinds from 3D golf, war-games, board games, video games, role playing, truly an impressive selection * A apple like deaktop and applications notes on the stuff avaible in CD-ROMS. Great color graphics up to 32000 colors, image processing tools, and music related stufware. * All kind of information on how to expand the system to do different kinds of applications. * Another item called CD BEST 10 seems to be about 10 diffenert music based packages. Remember the FM Towns can also play normal CD's * Books on using FM-Towns with IBM application like: Multplan, MS Windos * More CD packages like - - HYPER JUGLE with over 100 differnt MS-DOS program, a Habitat program were people build a computer town all is 3D, Audio & Visual software, OS/2 support stuf and many more things I don't understand - A MS/DOS <-> TownsOS support CD ROM. The TownOS looks like a nice windowing enviorment. - Video Bible and other CD databases. * A 3D visual world program billed as "OPERATE YOUR OWN AVATAR", seems related to the Habitat above. and there is mention of LUCASFILMS games and stuff like that. * Another borshire that is about what they call HYPERMEDIA * Compliers * Paint and sound programs. Some of these programs really impressed me, and when I saw them I said to myself - "There is no way I could ever get this working on my Amiga." I think a lot of programs were greatly enchance by the data avaible to the program on the CD ROM. I think programs like Space Ace and Dragons Lair would be easy to do on the FM Towns, sure the Amiga can do them but I don't think nearly as well. Also the speed of some of the graphics just blew me away. Some of the demos show very fast graphic drawing speed that seemed much faster than anything I've every seen the Amiga do. The Amiga was great in 1985 but I think the custom chips that gave it the edge then have become the major bottleneck now in the Amiga. I thought my Amiga software was pretty hot until I saw some of the Japanese software, now to be honest I would be somewhat ashammed to show my software in Japan. I have good stuff as I even showed it a SIGGRAPH in the Comodorare booth, not a lot of stuff I saw on the FM Towns was better. Clearly the hardware gave it a clear edge! > w> However, as an aside I should say that the Japanese computers have always > w> been ahead in graphics at least in the small computer area. Japanese > w> computer hardware seems to be really good stuff. I saw genlocking of > w> computer graphics onto video in 1984 on cheap MSX computers, it must have > w> been late 1986 before it was easy to get a genlock for the Amiga. > > The MSX standard was based on the same display chip used many years > previously in the TI-99/4A. The Japanese certainly weren't breaking > new ground in display technology there. The MSX machines competed > with each other on the basis of the accessories they offered, such as > built-in MIDI support or genlocks hardware. It sounds like the "FM > Towns" are the same concept applied in PC/Clone arena instead of the > 8-bit home computer arena. > > \/ Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Inc. Perhaps you are right there. Wayne Knapp
ejkst@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Eric J. Kennedy) (01/12/90)
In article <5366@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) writes:
<> Ummm, could you give us some examples of the sort of things that were
<> running on the FM Towns that is beyond the current state of the art of
<> Amiga technology?
<
<Glad you asked. Outside of the Multi-Tasking (which I consider VERY
<minor and VERY easy to add) I believe that everything I've said is true.
I don't see how multitasking can be considered minor *or* easy to add.
Look at the MS-DOS world and the MAC for examples of just how easy it is
to add multitasking to a machine after-the-fact. It's not easy at all.
--
Eric Kennedy
ejkst@cis.unix.pitt.edudaveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/12/90)
in article <5351@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM>, waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) says: > Keywords: FM Towns > However, there are several multi-tasking solutions for 80386 machines, > and the 80386 hardware is more suited for mult-tasking than plain 68000. 80386 hardware is more suited toward UNIX and memory protection than a plain 68000; built in MMU and support for virtual memory both help. However, they multitask equally well. > Multi-taking is most likely going to be standard on every machine in a > few years so I don't see too much problem in this area. I still think > the FM Towns is very impressive. It sounds quite interesting, but then again, so was the MindSet. If the cool video stuff isn't compatible with a PC hardware-based video standard, such as VGA, EGA, etc, then the machine may have problems doing well outside of niche stuff. Unless it can support TIGA, which seems to be a pretty good standard that's at least in part software based. And unless they've been _extremely_ clever, any VGA/EGA compatibility may the speed of the video display. The only fast video I've ever seen on any PC (sufficient for anything other than blocky animation) has been on some of the higher power graphics cards based around TI graphics chips. This is one place I think the Amiga had an advantage by being different -- it wasn't even remotely an MS-DOS machine, so folks took it for what it was. And even then it took a long time to get some serious software. This machine is going to be dismissed as a slow '386 machine and not given a serious look by most folks if they're not very careful about showing off it's nonstandard features. > Wayne Knapp -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/12/90)
in article <5366@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM>, waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) says: > So what make the FM Towns so great? Well to large extent it is the same > things that make the NEXT machine interesting. The only interesting thing about the NeXT machine was NextStep, Display PostScript, and Mach. The Software, in other words. I thought everyone knew that. And maybe the Frog casework, if you're a fan of mechanical design. Everything else was already available in other PCs or real Workstations. The basic NeXT system (no harddrive) is too slow for most people used to high end PCs or workstations (either of which cost less, including harddisk). > Next thing we know people are crazy about the NEXT. That's what marketing is all about. Steve Jobs apparently knows which buttons to press to get folks excited. Some people can do that with computers, some with colored water. The "what" seems far less instrumental in attaining the desired excitement level than the "how". And of course, the "bs". > * a C-Trace ray-tracer that has output as good and any Amiga ray-tracer. > (One picture of 3 cats in a alley is really neat) All they had to do was port QRT or something to obtain quality. That's not the issue with ray tracing programs. The problems ray tracers have to solve are 1) The User Interface Problem and 2) The Underpowered Computer Problem (eg, even with a 25MHz 68030/68882, you can spend hours processing each frame). > * A application note on using the FM Towns hardware and painting tools > to do cel animation. If the animation actually works in real time, I'll be willing to believe they have something you can't get on most PClones for less than a few extra K$ for a TIGA board. > Some of these programs really impressed me, and when I saw them I said > to myself - "There is no way I could ever get this working on my Amiga." Where were those? I didn't see any listed. You couldn't be doubting the ingenuity of Amiga people, could you? > I think a lot of programs were greatly enchance by the data avaible to > the program on the CD ROM. Sure, CD ROM is a nice addition, but you can get those with standard interfaces. At least Fujitsu has their act together, supplying everything themselves. But if it's all custom, they're going to have some trouble attracting lots of 3rd party following, especially these days, and in Japan. Especially note the trouble NEC's proprietary stuff is having there now. > Also the speed of some of the graphics just blew me away. Some of the > demos show very fast graphic drawing speed that seemed much faster than > anything I've every seen the Amiga do. OK, so they're not using typical PC graphic hardware bottlenecks. That's at least a good sign from the technology point of view, but it's really getting harder and harder to be nonstandard, at least at the high end (I assume this isn't being packaged as a $1000 home computer yet). It's nothing you can't get already with more expensive stuff, as you mention (SIGGRAPH and NCGA are chock full of PCs with TIGA stuff these days). > Wayne Knapp -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
mamba@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Deisinger) (01/12/90)
In article <9305@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >in article <5351@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM>, waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) says: >> Keywords: FM Towns >> However, there are several multi-tasking solutions for 80386 machines, >> and the 80386 hardware is more suited for mult-tasking than plain 68000. Ya, contrary to what one person said, yes, multi-tasking is relatively easy to add. One thing that the Amiga has as an advantage is that it is assumed right off that bat that your software should be written to behave itself in the multi-tasking environment that exists. >> Multi-taking is most likely going to be standard on every machine in a >> few years so I don't see too much problem in this area. I still think >> the FM Towns is very impressive. Can't argue with that! >It sounds quite interesting, but then again, so was the MindSet. If the The MindSet was before it's time (but very, very, important in influencing what was to follow). >cool video stuff isn't compatible with a PC hardware-based video standard, >such as VGA, EGA, etc, then the machine may have problems doing well >outside of niche stuff. Unless it can support TIGA, which seems to be >a pretty good standard that's at least in part software based. And >unless they've been _extremely_ clever, any VGA/EGA compatibility may >the speed of the video display. The only fast video I've ever seen on >any PC (sufficient for anything other than blocky animation) has been >on some of the higher power graphics cards based around TI graphics chips. This is true, in the US market. In the Japanese market they couldn't care less. The current market dominating machines (in Japan) are PC Clones modified to handle an extended ascii set. The software that is available on the Towns is quite nifty, and the hardware is really well thought out. I really don't expect to see this machine hit the market, maybe it's direct decendent will though (as a rule the stuff you get in the US market manufactured by Japanese companies does not exist in the Japan market, and vice-versa). >This is one place I think the Amiga had an advantage by being different >-- it wasn't even remotely an MS-DOS machine, so folks took it for what it >was. And even then it took a long time to get some serious software. >This machine is going to be dismissed as a slow '386 machine and not given >a serious look by most folks if they're not very careful about showing >off it's nonstandard features. Well...it's not possible to look at this machine and not be aware of it's "nonstanderd features". This system case at first glance: "Tower" configuration case in a charcoal grey. On the top front are two 3.5" drive bays, the center of the case is taken up by the optical drive, appearing much the way the CD slot in CD-Boomboxes do(The CD ROM drive is standard equipment, not an option). The bottom of the front: 5 LED's that indicate volume level, two volume control switches (one up/down) for the headphone jack that is on the front. To the left of the headphone jack is a microphone jack (Built-in DSP?!--I haven't read that far yet, my Japanese is poor), and two input device jacks (for mouse/controler pad). In the configuration I see here it has a JIS keyboard, a directonal controller sort of like a Nintendo(shudder) pad, and a round mouse/puck kind of like on Vax-stations. Now tell me, would you see that sitting on a shelf and just think it was a 386 clone....??? Hmmm??? >> Wayne Knapp >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" -- Paul Deisinger "Me wa kuchi hodo ni mono o ii" "Bushi wa kuwanedo takayooji" mamba@csd4.csd.uwm.edu<-- easy to reach and read every day.
waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (01/13/90)
In article <9307@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > > Some of these programs really impressed me, and when I saw them I said > > to myself - "There is no way I could ever get this working on my Amiga." > > Where were those? I didn't see any listed. You couldn't be doubting > the ingenuity of Amiga people, could you? Mainly two things. One was database type stuff with massive amounts of data that really make the program interesting. I say for two reasons this would work on the Amiga. First Commodore doesn't support/push/help/etc the Amiga users get and use CD-ROMs. Second, CD-ROMs seem to be much bigger in Japan than the States with more data/programs/music/whatever out in the CD-ROM format. The other thing that really impressed me was the rate of screen updates considering the resolution and the number of colors and the high quality of the graphics. I maintain that the custom chips and the chip RAM have become a major bottleneck in the Amiga. While they were unbelievably fast when the Amiga first came out, the speed of Amiga graphics are rather ho-hum by today's standards. I know since I'm really into real-time stuff and graphics. I think the performance of the Amiga in 16 color low-res. is still pretty good, however I find the 16 color high-res. speed of the graphics pretty sub-par. I now have a 25Mhz 386 with a ITA wonder 512k VGA card, not really the hotest thing you can by today, but in the 640x480x256 color mode my programs run somewhat faster than in the Amiga's 640x400x16 color mode. On both the machines the bottleneck is getting the data into the graphics memory as I have plenty of CPU cycles left over on both. So I have a relative figure to go by, but not hard numbers. The graphics on the FM Towns seemed much faster than what my 386 does, prehaps they run the bus faster, anyway I was really impressed. I think the Amiga could be upgraded to go much faster, and I hope it is. I seems like everything except the customs chips and chip RAM have been improved in the Amiga speed-wise, maybe it is time for an improvement there. Wayne Knapp P.S. Just to save flames I know all about the Amiga blitter, I even have my own customs routines that have about 1/3 the overhead of the standard Amiga blitter routine.
brandonl@amadeus.WR.TEK.COM (Brandon G. Lovested) (01/13/90)
In article <5371@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM>, waynekn@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) writes: > [ ... ] First Commodore doesn't support/push/help/etc > the Amiga users get and use CD-ROMs. Second, CD-ROMs seem to be much bigger > in Japan than the States with more data/programs/music/whatever out in > the CD-ROM format. Both points are true, unfortunately. Point one is shortsightedness by Commodore (as well as many other companies), point two is exceptionally poor marketing of an idea by the whole fledgling Interactive CD industry. Interactive videodisc technology has been out for a long time, but no one seems to be able to sell it effectively. Those of us who know its abilities and its great promise do not have the resources to make the magic happen. Eraseable CD's (magnetooptical) are coming along nicely, but their access time must be decreased further. This would truly be an effective multimedia storage medium. If Japan has been more innovative, it is because of their business structure. Their R&D-Manufacturing loop is tightly integrated - ours is very clearly not. Theirs is one level, ours is multi-leveled, thus providing a wonderful opportunity for poor communication and a deterioration in product introduction speed. We need to change. After all, we're the creative ones. We just need to better channel our creativity into quicker product placement. Ahem, I'm off my soapbox now. If anyone can direct me to some Amiga/CD-ROM/ CD-I source, I would greatly appreciate it. + * + * + * - - - - -------======<<<<<{{{{{{[[[[[[ BRANDONIUS brandonl@amadeus.WR.TEK.COM + + * * *
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (01/14/90)
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >> * a C-Trace ray-tracer that has output as good and any Amiga ray-tracer. >> (One picture of 3 cats in a alley is really neat) >All they had to do was port QRT or something to obtain quality. That's not >the issue with ray tracing programs. The problems ray tracers have to >solve are 1) The User Interface Problem and 2) The Underpowered Computer >Problem (eg, even with a 25MHz 68030/68882, you can spend hours processing >each frame). Really? I ported QRT and DBW render over to my compaq 386/20 here at work (running Unix) and I can calculate a frame in about 30 minutes (compared to 18 hours on a stock Amiga 1000). I would figure that a 68030/68882 setup would be at least as fast as that. This FM towns (why is is called that????) sounds like a pretty nice machine. A 80386 machine for $1700 is a pretty good deal, especially with the built in CD ROM, Graphics, and all. An Amiga 2500/20 (still the better machine IMHO) will run you around $4000. If I didn't love Amiga so much I would be sorely tempted by the FM Towns computer. At least from Wayne's description. I have yet to see one. -- John Sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps. Accessable via Starlink (Louisville KY) sparks@corpane.UUCP <><><><><><><><><><><> D.I.S.K. ph:502/968-5401 thru -5406 When everyone is out to get you, Paranoid is just good thinking. --Johnny Fever
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (01/16/90)
In article <1317@corpane.UUCP>, sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: > This FM towns (why is is called that????) sounds like a pretty nice machine. > A 80386 machine for $1700 is a pretty good deal, especially with the built in > CD ROM, Graphics, and all. An Amiga 2500/20 (still the better machine IMHO) > will run you around $4000. Um, actually the FM Towns runs for about $3000 in Japan. The $1700 was a figure I pulled out of the air to try and relate Japanese pricing to USA pricing. I arived at this figure since a most of the stuff selling in Japan that also sells in the states seems to be about 80% more expensive in Japan. However as I think about it some of the top of the line stuff like color laptops are a little cheaper in Japan than here. So to be honest I don't know how much it would really cost here in the USA. Sorry about pulling that number out of the air. $1700 does buy a lot of pc clone anymore but maybe not something like the FM Twons which is clearly a lot more than a pc clone. > If I didn't love Amiga so much I would be sorely tempted by the FM Towns > computer. At least from Wayne's description. I have yet to see one. As far as I know that FM Towns is only for sale in Japan. I wish it was here in the states as it would really be well recieved by the Amiga crowd I believe. (except for Commodore). The reason I posted about the FM Towns was that the Amiga Resource editor came accross with a blanket statment that computers in Japan were boring. I don't agree, in fact I feel that the Amiga doesn't have a chance in Japan since the Japanese computers are getting so good! Also I was really surprised by just how neat a pc clone could be. I feel that future of small computers is really bright. If the Amiga goes down the tubes (Which I think is happening) it is no big deal since multi- media is here to stay and other computer will quicky take the Amiga's place. Wayne Knapp
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/16/90)
in article <1317@corpane.UUCP>, sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) says: > daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>All they had to do was port QRT or something to obtain quality. ... >>The problems ray tracers have to solve are 1) The User Interface Problem >>and 2) The Underpowered Computer Problem (eg, even with a 25MHz 68030/68882, >>you can spend hours processing each frame). > Really? I ported QRT and DBW render over to my compaq 386/20 here at work > (running Unix) and I can calculate a frame in about 30 minutes (compared to > 18 hours on a stock Amiga 1000). > I would figure that a 68030/68882 setup would be at least as fast as that. The 68030/68882 will be faster than your '386/20, which will in turn be faster than the FM Towns. The time depends alot on what you're tracing. Heck, there are faster ray tracers around than QRT and DBW, I can trace _something_ on my '030 machine in 10 minutes. But if you look at the kind of stuff that folks want to trace for serious, high quality animations, you're back up to a few hours per frame on a 68030/68882 system. Take Bill Koester's Star Trek animations, for example. Quite some time per frame, and if you don't have more than 16 megabytes of 32 bit memory in your system, you might as well try rendering something simpler. I think the 3rd generation rendering programs on the Amiga will use faster rendering techniques for generating these images. The images will generally expand to take up all memory, CPU time, etc. as long as the rendering time isn't outrageous. If you only have 1 or 2 megs of memory to use, you may not ever get an image large enough to really bog down a reasonable 020/030/386 machine. But the kind of things that are being done on Amigas today are already hitting the same time limits you had on plain old 68000s with no floating point. > An Amiga 2500/20 (still the better machine IMHO) will run you around $4000. I think the list these days is around $3600/$3699. > I have yet to see one. Same here. It does sound interesting. The name is silly, though. I mentioned before, FM Towns sounds like some guy who lives next door to MC Boon and Billy-Bob Thudpucker. > John Sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps. Accessable via Starlink (Louisville KY) -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
valentin@cbmvax.commodore.com (Valentin Pepelea) (01/16/90)
In article <5385@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM> wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) writes: > >Um, actually the FM Towns runs for about $3000 in Japan. The $1700 was a >figure I pulled out of the air to try and relate Japanese pricing to USA >pricing. I arived at this figure since a most of the stuff selling in Japan >that also sells in the states seems to be about 80% more expensive in Japan. The computers that are more expensive in Japan than here are US or Korean made ones, due to the import tariffs. Equipment made in Japan do not have to pay such tarrifs, of course. I think you should expect a $3500 price tag for the FM Towns here in the US, unless they decide to manufacture it here. >However as I think about it some of the top of the line stuff like color >laptops are a little cheaper in Japan than here. So to be honest I don't >know how much it would really cost here in the USA. There's your proof. Valentin
wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (01/16/90)
In article <9351@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > The 68030/68882 will be faster than your '386/20, which will in turn be faster > than the FM Towns. The time depends alot on what you're tracing. Actually there is a lot more to the ray tracing speed than you mentioned. For one thing it can make a huge difference what kind of compiler is used. On 386 machines there is a wide range of compilers/tools to choose from. Using a native 386 complier can make a huge difference in program speed. Another thing that can make a difference is how much memory is needed. If you are into very serious rendering chances are you can't afford to put enough memory on the system. This means going to a harddisk based rendering. (I believe that the PIXAR RenderMan render does this even though it normally doesn't do ray tracing.) In such a case it is often faster and much cheaper to use a pc clone that has very fast hard disk access and maybe even uses a large hard disk cache to enhance performace more. Finally, the pc market is currently a lot hotter than the Commodore market and as a by-product of this speed increases seem to be comming much faster. I bought a cheap clone and it was a 25Mhz system and now 33Mhz systems are getting cheap. Plus there are lot more vendors of things like Transputer boards, 88K boards and DSP boards. Seems to me that you have to be closing your eyes a little to say the Amiga has the speed edge on ray tracing - it all depends on what you are comparing to what. > Same here. It does sound interesting. The name is silly, though. I > mentioned before, FM Towns sounds like some guy who lives next door to MC Boon > and Billy-Bob Thudpucker. This is a interesting statement. My wife is Japanese and she told me that 'Amiga' is a wierd name and sounds like some kind of Indian word. So I just asked about the name 'FM Towns' and she said, "FM Towns sounds a lot more sophisted than the name Amiga". I guess it depends on your background. Note my wife was born and raised in Japan and didn't start learning English until she was almost in high school. Wayne Knapp
mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Mike Smithwick) (01/17/90)
In article <9351@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: [chatter about the "FM Towns"] >Same here. It does sound interesting. The name is silly, though. I >mentioned before, FM Towns sounds like some guy who lives next door to MC Boon >and Billy-Bob Thudpucker. > >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy > Too much of everything is just enough The Japanese are crazy about English sounding words and syllables (sp?). So alot of Japanese goods are named with nonsense words. A Sony computer was called the "HitBit", and the new Sega machine is named "MegaDisk" in Japan. Also I saw a soft-drink named "Sweat", hmmmm, sounds appetizing huh? FM Towns sounds like a CW singer. "And now, performing his latest hit single, 'I'm Just a Cli in the GUI of Life' is FM Towns!" *** mike smithwick *** "Never trust a surgeon with shaving cuts. . ." [disclaimer : nope, I don't work for NASA, I take full blame for my ideas]
sterling@cbmvax.commodore.com (Rick Sterling - PA) (01/17/90)
>In article ><40684@ames.arc.nasa.gov> mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Mike Smithwick) writes: > > The Japanese are crazy about English sounding words and syllables (sp?). > So alot of Japanese goods are named with nonsense words. A Sony computer > was called the "HitBit", and the new Sega machine is named "MegaDisk" in > Japan. Also I saw a soft-drink named "Sweat", hmmmm, sounds appetizing > huh? > I think that was ``Pocari Sweat'' you saw. Freaked me out the first time I found it in my hotel room fridge. Immediate impression was canned wild hog sweat. sheesh! I understand it's actually something akin to ``Gatorade''. > *** mike smithwick *** > > "Never trust a surgeon with shaving cuts. . ." > [disclaimer : nope, I don't work for NASA, I take full blame for my ideas] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rick Sterling Commodore Technology Group (215)-431-9275 Test Engineering UUCP ...{uunet,allegra,rutgers}!cbmvax!sterling --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/18/90)
in article <5389@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM>, wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) says: > In article <9351@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >> The 68030/68882 will be faster than your '386/20, which will in turn be faster >> than the FM Towns. The time depends alot on what you're tracing. > For one thing it can make a huge difference what kind of compiler is used. Implicit in any "mine vs. yours" argument; of course the compiler matters, and it can matter alot. > On 386 machines there is a wide range of compilers/tools to choose from. > Using a native 386 complier can make a huge difference in program speed. Absolutely; if you're only running a compiler that produces 8088 or 80286 code for a ray-tracer, you might as well pack it in. My claim was that all these machines are a bit underpowered for any real ray traced animation work. Without a compiler that supports [a] the 32 bit machine model and [b] the FPU, you should replace "a bit underpowered" with "pretty useless". All Amiga compilers are in class [a] above, though those that know about the additional user-mode instructions of the 68020 and 68030 can do a little better. All Amiga C compilers are in class [b]. Lattice, at least, will even give you floating point register variables. > If you are into very serious rendering chances are you can't afford to put > enough memory on the system. This means going to a harddisk based rendering. > In such a case it is often faster and much cheaper to use a pc clone that > has very fast hard disk access and maybe even uses a large hard disk cache > to enhance performace more. We haven't run into real memory problems yet here at Commodore, but of course price isn't a big issue. However, the _average_ Amiga hard disk controller is as fast as the fastest PC hard disk controller, and faster than most of the PC controllers. I don't think moving to a PC is a valid argument here. Of course, if you have an Amiga and a '386 in the same room, and have some extremely heavy tracing to do, it may make sense to move it over to the PC, since you'll undoubtedly be using the Amiga and such heavy Disk and CPU usage will slow the system down. > Plus there are lot more vendors of things like Transputer boards, 88K boards > and DSP boards. I think one of each would be sufficient. No Amiga 88k board yet, but if all you were concerned about was faster ray tracing, I think a Transputer board would be the way to go. As long as you have a host adaptor for the particular bus (PC or Amiga), the rest is moot; you have equal access from the Amiga or the PC to the Transputer network. Considering all that cash you're going to pay for that Meiko Computing Surface, you might as well buy the host machine you like the best. >> Same here. It does sound interesting. The name is silly, though. I >> mentioned before, FM Towns sounds like some guy who lives next door to MC Boon >> and Billy-Bob Thudpucker. > This is a interesting statement. My wife is Japanese and she told me that > 'Amiga' is a wierd name and sounds like some kind of Indian word. Yeah, absolutely. Of course, it's rare that any of the stranger names from Japan make it over here; the name is usually changed along the way. It's obviously cultural. > Wayne Knapp -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy Too much of everything is just enough
ifarqhar@mqccsunc.mqcc.mq.OZ (Ian Farquhar) (01/19/90)
In article <9367@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >in article <5389@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM>, wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) says: [much deleted] >> Plus there are lot more vendors of things like Transputer boards, 88K boards >> and DSP boards. > >I think one of each would be sufficient. No Amiga 88k board yet, but if all >you were concerned about was faster ray tracing, I think a Transputer board >would be the way to go. As long as you have a host adaptor for the particular >bus (PC or Amiga), the rest is moot; you have equal access from the Amiga or >the PC to the Transputer network. Considering all that cash you're going to >pay for that Meiko Computing Surface, you might as well buy the host machine >you like the best. So when is the official CBM Transputer card coming, Dave? I have had info on it for almost a year now. All hail Saint Fubar, parton saint of computer programmers. +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Ian Farquhar | Phone : (02) 805-7420 (STD) | | Microcomputer Support | (612) 805-7420 (ISD) | | Office of Computing Services | Fax : (02) 805-7433 (STD) | | Macquarie University NSW 2109 | (612) 805-7433 (ISD) | | Australia | Also : 805-7205 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | ACSNet ifarqhar@macuni.mqcc.mq.oz | | ifarqhar@mqccsuna.mqcc.mq.oz | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ D