pete@i-core.UUCP (Pete Ashdown) (01/11/90)
Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's? I'm in the process of programming a utility and in the process, I have almost completely redesigned what the window for the program looks like. I don't really like the Mac's interface much more. It does look slightly nicer than the Amiga's, but not much. What I _do_ like is the NeXT interface. The machine is outrageously expensive, the optical drive is outrageously slow, but the GUI brings tears to my eyes. In the aformentioned program that I'm writing, the NeXT GUI has been a very big influence. Which brings me to the final point. I heard a rumor that Commodore had hired a graphic artist to redesign the look of Intuition. True?? A friend of mine redesigned it himself with DPaint, and although it uses eight colors it makes the NeXT GUI look like... well... like the current Amiga GUI. Is there anyway I can get these pictures to the supposed graphic artist at Commodore? Is this all a hoax? Are we going to be stuck with such a dog-ugly interface forever?
portuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) (01/12/90)
>>>>> On 11 Jan 90 06:32:25 GMT, pete@i-core.UUCP (Pete Ashdown) said:
pete> Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's?
Yes. X is uglier by FAR. I'm not even impressed with Motif, which
steals some of the NeXT "3D-ishness" but somehow still manages to make
it look bad.
pete> Which brings me to the final point. I heard a rumor that Commodore had
pete> hired a graphic artist to redesign the look of Intuition. True??
I think it is true, and I think that even somebody from Commodore
verified this on the net.
pete> Are we going to be stuck with such a
pete> dog-ugly interface forever?
I hope not, although little things like changing the background of the
workbench screen to a different color does wonders for sprucing up the
look of the current interface. It's a shame that the programs I've
seen for performing this task exact some kind of penalty in either
Chip RAM usage or decreased Layers performance.
--M
--
__
\/ Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Inc.
portuesi@SGI.COM Entry Systems Division -- Engineeringsdl@lyra.mitre.org (Steven D. Litvinchouk) (01/13/90)
In article <1990Jan11.063225.28025@i-core.UUCP> pete@i-core.UUCP (Pete Ashdown) writes: > Which brings me to the final point. I heard a rumor that Commodore had > hired a graphic artist to redesign the look of Intuition. True?? A friend > of mine redesigned it himself with DPaint, and although it uses eight colors > it makes the NeXT GUI look like... well... like the current Amiga GUI. Is > there anyway I can get these pictures to the supposed graphic artist at > Commodore? Why don't you post these pictures to comp.binaries.amiga? I would love to see them.... Steven Litvintchouk MITRE Corporation Burlington Road Bedford, MA 01730 (617)271-7753 ARPA: sdl@mbunix.mitre.org UUCP: ...{att,decvax,genrad,ll-xn,philabs,utzoo}!linus!sdl "Where does he get those wonderful toys?" -- J. Nicholson -- Steven Litvintchouk MITRE Corporation Burlington Road Bedford, MA 01730 (617)271-7753 ARPA: sdl@mbunix.mitre.org UUCP: ...{att,decvax,genrad,ll-xn,philabs,utzoo}!linus!sdl "Where does he get those wonderful toys?" -- J. Nicholson
ghewes@bbn.com (Gerald Hewes) (01/13/90)
>Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's? I'm in >the process of programming a utility and in the process, I have almost >completely redesigned what the window for the program looks like. I can only agree. I do hope that the new interface has the 3D like look. I work daily on a MOTIF machine, and the graphics are stunning (It also cost sligtly more than an AMIGA...). Does one need HP permission (ie does HP have patents or whatever) on the 3D look, or is that Public Domain? Any case, if C= has to pay royalties to HP (or OSF) they should do it, it's worth it.
fgd3@jc3b21.UUCP (Fabbian G. Dufoe) (01/13/90)
Well, I like the Amiga's user interface. The Amiga's windows look
much better to me than those on the Macintosh. I haven't seen the Next but
the windows and gadgets I've seen on the Amiga which people tell me are
"like the Next" aren't as pleasing to me as the standard Amiga stuff. So I
guess it's just a matter of taste.
I'd certainly hate to see a lot of extra memory and disk space devoted
to "improving" the appearance of Intuition. Let's put the resources into
improving functionality instead!
--Fabbian Dufoe
350 Ling-A-Mor Terrace South
St. Petersburg, Florida 33705
813-823-2350
UUCP: ...uunet!pdn!jc3b21!fgd3Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com (01/14/90)
> Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's?
I'm not at liberty to say too much about it, but there's a commercial
package in the works which frees the programmer from a lot of the
'artistic' work of designing windows, gadgets, etc. and provides it
in the form of ready-to-use source code.
I agree with the above statement about Ami's interface. The Amiga's
the best graphics micro around, there's no reason why it can't have the
best graphic interface. At the moment, it doesn't.
\_
)\_ _/
`/)\_ __ //
__ _____________________________________________ `\\)\_ / '~//
/// Julie Petersen (LadyHawke@cup.portal.com `\\//\\/|'//'
/// Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com) (\/Yyyy/'
__ /// "TimeLords aren't supposed to interfere." /Yyyy/'
\\\ /// "This one calls himself 'Doctor' and interferes //\\ LadyHawke
\\/// all the time." _______________________________ ///\\\
LadyHawke@cup.portal.com mab@druwy.ATT.COM (Alan Bland) (01/15/90)
In article <25889@cup.portal.com> Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes: >> Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's? There is a PD utility floating around called 3DLook that changes all of the Intuition gadgets (close, front/back, etc.) to appear 3D, if you use the right color scheme. I first saw this on a 2500 with FlickerFixer in 640x400 mode, and it looked extremely professional. Let's hope the Commodore folks do something like this with Intuition for 1.4. -- -- Alan Bland -- att!druwy!mab == mab@druwy.ATT.COM -- AT&T Bell Laboratories, Denver CO -- (303)538-3510
ifarqhar@mqccsunc.mqcc.mq.OZ (Ian Farquhar) (01/15/90)
In article <1990Jan11.063225.28025@i-core.UUCP> pete@i-core.UUCP (Pete Ashdown) writes: >Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's? I'm in >the process of programming a utility and in the process, I have almost >completely redesigned what the window for the program looks like. There certainly is! Have you ever used some of the utilities and games that come with a Sun? Text in buttons (gadgets to you or I) that are not centered, and many other graphic nasties. >I don't really like the Mac's interface much more. It does look slightly >nicer than the Amiga's, but not much. Agreed. However, you must admit that the interface was designed in the early 1980's. GUI's are like clothing, they go out of fashion very fast. Perhaps one day we will see designer GUI's sold by little anaemic looking men with squeaky voices and tape measures about their necks? :-) :-) ;-) >What I _do_ like is the NeXT interface. The machine is outrageously >expensive, the optical drive is outrageously slow, but the GUI brings tears >to my eyes. In the aformentioned program that I'm writing, the NeXT GUI has >been a very big influence. I applaud you attempts to produce a nice user interface, though the NeXT - being a Steve Jobs monochrome monstrosity - is designed with lack of color in mind. It is easier to design a really nice GUI like this, as you do not have to worry about color matching. For the most part the Amiga's default colors are well chosen, though the "light brown" looks more like orange to me. What is REALLY needed is a preferences selection to choose the number of bit planes. One thing that I would like to see someone on the net do is to put together some basic Graphic Design notes - color matching, proportions, centeres of interest and so forth. Basic stuff that any artist spends the first few weeks learning at art school. I do not have time to do this (though if people REALLY want it, ask me in March and I will pull out all of my old art reference material and do a small summary. >Which brings me to the final point. I heard a rumor that Commodore had >hired a graphic artist to redesign the look of Intuition. True?? A friend >of mine redesigned it himself with DPaint, and although it uses eight colors >it makes the NeXT GUI look like... well... like the current Amiga GUI. Is >there anyway I can get these pictures to the supposed graphic artist at >Commodore? Is this all a hoax? Are we going to be stuck with such a >dog-ugly interface forever? Zoo them, UUencode them, and post them to comp.binaries.amiga. I'd love to see them. CBM is present on the net, and would probably glance at them. You never know... I can also refer you to certain screen shots that have been published in Amazing Computing showing the new Amiga "Hand", which is apparently animated. As far as I am aware by reading these articles, this redesign is happenning. Unfortunately, I can say no more. One thing that CBM might like to do is hire a typesetter to redesign their manuals, which are pretty ugly. Please, keep away from TeX, and stop using Times-Roman and Palatino! Just flip though the Adobe type catalog and use some imagination! Sorry, CBM. I criticise you a lot. I like most things about the Amiga, but some things set my teeth on edge! +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Ian Farquhar | Phone : (02) 805-7420 (STD) | | Microcomputer Support | (612) 805-7420 (ISD) | | Office of Computing Services | Fax : (02) 805-7433 (STD) | | Macquarie University NSW 2109 | (612) 805-7433 (ISD) | | Australia | Also : 805-7205 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ "A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist." Sir Humphrey Appleby (Patron Saint of Public Servants) Yes, Minister. Yes, Prime Minister. +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Ian Farquhar | Phone : (02) 805-7420 (STD) | | Microcomputer Support | (612) 805-7420 (ISD) | | Office of Computing Services | Fax : (02) 805-7433 (STD) | | Macquarie University NSW 2109 | (612) 805-7433 (ISD) | | Australia | Also : 805-7205 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ D
mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Mike Smithwick) (01/16/90)
In article <1990Jan11.063225.28025@i-core.UUCP> pete@i-core.UUCP (Pete Ashdown) writes: >Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's? I'm in >the process of programming a utility and in the process, I have almost >completely redesigned what the window for the program looks like. Take a look at the Sun. Nice hardware, crappy interface. SunView was so vile looking, not to mention their pseudo-object oriented toolbox I just threw up my hands and designed my own (interface and toolbox). Remember that the Amiga interface really doesn't enforce a particular style, except in the most rudimentary elements such as what mouse-button brings up the menus, etc. For example, intuition doesn't give you standard buttons, you must supply your own. You do get stock sliders, but are encouraged to modifiy them and anything else according to your particular creative bent. This has both advantages and drawbacks. The advantages are that the programmer has more control over what her/his software will utilmately look like. The disadvantage is that there is no real cohesive look to Amiga applications, things look rather disjointed, and behave that way. Just look at all of the different file requestors. Some put directories in the name list, clicking on the directory will open it up. Others force you to type in the directory name. The same goes for the devices, some use "df1:, "df0:", "dh1:", and so on. I don't know what my dh1: device is, it could be tools: or prj:. I like the freedom that Intuition gives, but what standards it has should be raised up to a little bit higher level. Although I really appreciated the chance to design all of my windows and gadgets for Distant Suns without some style committee breathing down my neck as happens in the Apple world. Sunview was effectivly designed circa 1984, and was oriented towards a monochrome system. So the look is as flat as my bank-account. The tool-box enforces the monochrome look, so even though few mono. Suns are sold now, the application software still looks dull. This doesn't even cover their colormap problems. The menus use colormap entries 0 and 255, and are enforced. That is, if you have an application running with it's own custom colormap, bringing up a menu might swap in a default colormap to ensure that the menu items are clearly visible. Our software at work runs with a black background and is designed to be used in the dark. If we're not careful, bringing up a menu will change all of the colors, usually turning the black background to white blinding the user (an air-traffic controller). Sun also won't like you use color backgrounds, the backgrounds are only mono. Sun/AT&T are trying to force OpenSore, er, OpenLook upon us. This almost goes too far to enforce a look. Our engineering applications just wouldn't look right with little stick-pins on the menus, Arggh! > >I don't really like the Mac's interface much more. It does look slightly >nicer than the Amiga's, but not much. > Until the nExt came along, I thought the Mack interface was about the most well thought out. (see what happens when you get a menu that's too long to fit on a screen!). But then I saw the Next. >What I _do_ like is the NeXT interface. The machine is outrageously >expensive, the optical drive is outrageously slow, but the GUI brings tears >to my eyes. In the aformentioned program that I'm writing, the NeXT GUI has >been a very big influence. > The 3-Dee look of the NExt/MoTiF/FourSight is very nice. Trouble with that is that on a limited color machine like the Ami, the subtle 3-d details are hard to render. Getting the shadows or highlights to look just right under all of the various possible combinations of colors is next to impossible. The utility 3-D look looked real nice, until I brought up some other applications that used their own colormaps, and then the 3-D gadgets fell apart. >Which brings me to the final point. I heard a rumor that Commodore had >hired a graphic artist to redesign the look of Intuition. True?? A friend >of mine redesigned it himself with DPaint, and although it uses eight colors >it makes the NeXT GUI look like... well... like the current Amiga GUI. Is >there anyway I can get these pictures to the supposed graphic artist at >Commodore? Is this all a hoax? Are we going to be stuck with such a >dog-ugly interface forever? Tain't no hoax. . .. At the Dev.Con last year they showed us the first WB application to use the new style. It was a 3-D approach, and looked real nice. Unfortunately, the application was not included in our developers disks, so was have not been able to get a real close look at it. And so far the 1.4 Alpha releases I've received still use the DogUgly stuff. We recently installed the new Silicon Graphics release on our Iris. Wow!. Take NextStep, advance it 10 years and make it work with 24-bit color and that's what you have. On one demo, you open up a window, and in the window are 4 REAL big buttons, rendered in 3-D. Clicking on a button will cause it be become animated. It will in real-time, tumble out towards you, flipping over. On the back side of the button are more buttons. This button then fills up the window with its back, giving you more selections. Real flashy stuff. For those of you with Suns, I may be posting my toolbox someday if there would be any interest. *** mike smithwick *** "Never trust a surgeon with shaving cuts. . ." [disclaimer : nope, I don't work for NASA, I take full blame for my ideas]
kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (01/16/90)
In <94@macuni.mqcc.mq.oz> ifarqhar@mqccsunc.mqcc.mq.OZ (Ian Farquhar) writes:
-> One thing that CBM might like to do is hire a typesetter to redesign
-> their manuals, which are pretty ugly. Please, keep away from TeX, and
-> stop using Times-Roman and Palatino! Just flip though the Adobe type
-> catalog and use some imagination!
I'll agree with you about TeX and Times Roman, but Palatino is a most
excellent font! (You would, perhaps, prefer Zapf Chancery or New
Schlbk? :) )
--
Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@pawl.rpi.edu>
"Famous? I'm not famous. People come up to me after a show and say
'Hey, Steve!'"
-Jon Andersonjimb@faatcrl.UUCP (Jim Burwell) (01/18/90)
mike@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Mike Smithwick) writes: >In article <1990Jan11.063225.28025@i-core.UUCP> pete@i-core.UUCP (Pete Ashdown) writes: >>Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's? I'm in >>the process of programming a utility and in the process, I have almost >>completely redesigned what the window for the program looks like. >Take a look at the Sun. Nice hardware, crappy interface. SunView was so >vile looking, not to mention their pseudo-object oriented toolbox I just >threw up my hands and designed my own (interface and toolbox). Gee.. Maybe you should port MikeView to the Amiga. :-) :-) :-) -- James S. Burwell UUCP: ...!rutgers!faatcrl!jimb Internet: jimb@faatcrl.UUCP
ifarqhar@mqccsunc.mqcc.mq.OZ (Ian Farquhar) (01/18/90)
In article <`WQC0%@rpi.edu> kudla@pawl.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) writes: >In <94@macuni.mqcc.mq.oz> ifarqhar@mqccsunc.mqcc.mq.OZ (Ian Farquhar) writes: > >-> One thing that CBM might like to do is hire a typesetter to redesign >-> their manuals, which are pretty ugly. Please, keep away from TeX, and >-> stop using Times-Roman and Palatino! Just flip though the Adobe type >-> catalog and use some imagination! > >I'll agree with you about TeX and Times Roman, but Palatino is a most >excellent font! (You would, perhaps, prefer Zapf Chancery or New >Schlbk? :) ) Actually, I quite like Times-Roman, but it has its place. It is wonderful for formal and legal documents, and is quite a good font for newspapers. Nor do I mind New Century Schoolbook, as long as it stays in schoolbooks and not in general typesetting. It reminds me of the bad old days at kindergarden. But I detest Palatino! There are two reasons for this: 1. It is the most aneamic, disgusting font that gives me the distinct impression that the designer could not decide whether he wanted a serifed or san-serifed font. Vomitable. 2. Apple uses it. Bad memories there. Also I agree that Zapf Chancery is not for general typesetting, but it looks superb on Wedding stationery, and mixes well with Times-Italic for that. Okay, he says, pulling out the Adobe type catalog. Let's have a few suggestions here. Century Old Style A nice serifed font with a nice degree of formality, but not as intimidating as Times-Roman. Good for the body text. Souvenier Yes, lots of people hate this font. I think that it would possibly go well in the CBM manuals. As you may gather, I quite like Souvenier. Futura A fairly heavy Futura would go well for the pieces of text that are meant to by typed into the computer. As for general layout and manufacture, 10 point in single column on glossy paper, ring bound. Color inserts of screen shots would also be nice - particularly if CBM purchased a decent device to capture a screen shot rather than taking a picture with a camera! All hail Saint Fubar, parton saint of computer programmers. +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Ian Farquhar | Phone : (02) 805-7420 (STD) | | Microcomputer Support | (612) 805-7420 (ISD) | | Office of Computing Services | Fax : (02) 805-7433 (STD) | | Macquarie University NSW 2109 | (612) 805-7433 (ISD) | | Australia | Also : 805-7205 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | ACSNet ifarqhar@macuni.mqcc.mq.oz | | ifarqhar@mqccsuna.mqcc.mq.oz | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ D
jac@muslix.llnl.gov (James Crotinger) (01/23/90)
Hate to get involved in this, but what the heck... pete> Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's? Michael> Yes. X is uglier by FAR. X specifies *NO* user interface whatsoever. It is up to the window manager and the application toolkits to provide the look and feel. I use X11R4 and twm, and I think it is a *MUCH* nicer "looking" interface than the Amigas. But this doesn't really belong here... Jim
portuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) (01/23/90)
>>>>> On 22 Jan 90 21:22:58 GMT, jac@muslix.llnl.gov (James Crotinger) said:
james> Hate to get involved in this, but what the heck...
pete> Speaking of ugly interfaces, is there any uglier than the Amiga's?
Michael> Yes. X is uglier by FAR.
james> X specifies *NO* user interface whatsoever. It is up to the window
james> manager and the application toolkits to provide the look and feel.
yeah, yeah, I know I know. I also know that every single one of the
window managers and applications I have seen running under X have been
much uglier than the Amiga, twm included.
james> I use X11R4 and twm, and I think it is a *MUCH* nicer "looking" interface
james> than the Amigas. But this doesn't really belong here...
Intuition has a much better interaction model, and doesn't have the
quirks of twm. I don't feel at all upset using Intuition over any of
the X window managers.
--M
--
__ Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics Computer Systems, Inc.
\/ portuesi@SGI.COM Entry Systems Division -- Engineering
"We only know in theory what we are doing" -- Kate Bush