spencer@well.UUCP (Randal Spencer) (11/15/86)
I tried to post this to the net a while back but the Well ate it so here it is again: ========================================================================== On Sept 11 in net.micro.amiga Rich Rodgers (richr@pogo.UUCP) wrote: > >My company is currently working on exactly what you are asking for to be >manufactured by C Ltd. (formerly CardCo). What it is is a SCSI card that >attaches to the side of the Amiga (AND PASSES THE BUS!!!), a SCSI >controller - hard disk - power-supply combination all for the retail of >$995. As with all C Ltd. products you will only be able to buy it from >your local dealer. It should be available in quantity in 6 to 8 weeks. If >pressured the folks at C Ltd. will probably offer the SCSI board alone for a >semi-reasonable cost. The board will also be available in a ZORRO board >version to be shipped shortly after the C Ltd. Expansion Box ships. > >Once again... > >Richard N. Rodgers >Creative Microsystems Inc. > Is Rich still out there? Is there any news? It has been 6 weeks as of last Thursday and is coming quickly up on 8 weeks. Just dying for a hard disk. Randy Spencer ps... Anybody want to know why the Amiga isn't selling up to it's potential? Anybody think that it might have anything to do with all the mis-under- standing the general public has about the machine? Anybody wonder where it comes from? Anybody looked at the "What if the Mac had color?" article in Mac World? Notice where it says to use hi-res on the Amiga you have to go to Black&White. Says you have to also get a different screen... Sounds like somebody is refering to the ATARI, no? Now, isn't Mac World and Amiga World put out by the same people? Hmm... The guy who wrote the article is _Chairman_ of Mac World, whatever that means. (boy, I tell you!) Unemployeed (and broke) Dec/Amiga consultant ================================== soon to get a cute .signature file ================================== ========================================================================== Since then I have heard that my dealer is going to get them in in a couple of weeks. Anyone know how they are turning out? My dealer is charging $995. Is that a good price? I had a .signature file all written up and I left it at home, I will bring it next time, I promise!
page@ulowell.UUCP (Bob Page) (11/18/86)
Warning: this article is about 75 lines long without headers and the signature. Some of the information may be useful, however. spencer@well.UUCP (Randal Spencer) wrote in article <2043@well.UUCP>: >I tried to post this to the net a while back but the Well ate it so here Hmmm. I got both here at ulo-well, on the other coast. >On Sept 11 in net.micro.amiga Rich Rodgers (richr@pogo.UUCP) wrote: >>SCSI controller - hard disk - power-supply combination all for the retail of >>$995. As with all C Ltd. products you will only be able to buy it from >>your local dealer. I ordered mine last week directly from C Ltd - they have a special deal for developers, I think it was about $750 for 7-port SCSI, power supply and 20 MB hard drive. I say `I think' because I just told them to put it on my plastic, you know what I mean? They said it would ship Dec 1. That's also the same time that Byte-by-Byte's PALjr ($1500 list, has 1MB RAM and 20 MB DMA hard disk, no clock, doesn't pass the bus, no expansion ports) will ship. I already have the CardCo/CLtd aMEGA one MB board, so I had to get the <$20 pass-through connector for it. >>If pressured the folks at C Ltd. will probably offer the SCSI board >>alone for a semi-reasonable cost. It is available alone - I think it's 295 retail, but don't quote me or flame CLtd if I'm wrong. They have developer's discounts on that, too, so you can buy one and hook up your own 600MB SCSI disk :-) The only problem with all this, I am afraid, is that AmigaDOG can't keep up with the disk/interface transfer rate. I saw a 10 MB SCSI drive (Xebec ? Something like that) last weekend at the MARCA show and it looked really sluggish. It also had a bug someplace - the DIR command (and LIST too) would loop on a particular entry - I guess the file pointer was pointing back on itself. Dave Haynie, how about a DISKSALV for hard disks - maybe using stiffies for intermediate file storage? Just a thought. DISKED makes me shudder, as does DISKDOCTOR. I'd rather mung a copy, if you know what I mean. Of course you do. Sigh. I've resigned myself to a slow hard disk (because of the SOFTWARE - I won't even repeat what the author of AmigaDOS was saying at the Developer's Conference), but at least I won't have to be constantly changing stiffies (tan, blue or otherwise). Anybody know of a cheap SCSI tape so I can back up the sucker? AmigaDOS 1.2 now supports archiving/backup with a special bit in the directory entry, so I suppose you can expect to see incremental backup programs soon. -- warning. here we digress from technical talk. >Anybody want to know why the Amiga isn't selling up to its potential? >Anybody think that it might have anything to do with all the mis-under- >standing the general public has about the machine? In my opinion, the Amiga Kernel is too sophisticated for micro programmers to tackle. It takes mini hackers (no, not munchkins) to understand terms like 'message passing.' Sad but true. The world will catch up to the Amiga, but not for a while. Maybe Mess-dos version 5 or something. Maybe by then the Amiga will have a better DOS (I don't mean kernel) as well. Look for a large (hopefully well-targeted) ad campaign from CBM real-soon-now. My guess is that they waited for both clearance from the banks and the Sidecar & genlock products to ship. And now that 1.2 is Officially Here, what else could hold them back? >Now, isn't Mac World and Amiga World put out by the same people? Hmm... Last year MacWorld was predicting a Horrible Death for the Amiga. I don't see Amiga magazines concerning themselves with the Mac. But variety is the spice of life, eh? ..Bob -- Bob Page, U of Lowell CS Dept. ulowell!page, page@ulowell.CSNET
farren@hoptoad.uucp (Mike Farren) (11/18/86)
In article <758@ulowell.UUCP> page@ulowell.UUCP (Bob Page) writes: >The only problem with all this, I am afraid, is that AmigaDOG can't >keep up with the disk/interface transfer rate. I saw a 10 MB SCSI >drive (Xebec ? Something like that) last weekend at the MARCA show >and it looked really sluggish. Did it have an effective DMA circuit? Non-DMA disks will be sluggish, can't help themselves. I don't see any reason why the 'miga can't keep up with the fairly slow data rates SCSI uses... -- ---------------- "... if the church put in half the time on covetousness Mike Farren that it does on lust, this would be a better world ..." hoptoad!farren Garrison Keillor, "Lake Wobegon Days"
wagner@utcs.UUCP (11/19/86)
Bob Page suggested, in his article, that Amiga software would prevent a DMA hard disk from performing well. I don't understand this. Did I mis-interpret his statement? Or can someone fill me in on this? Michael Wagner (wagner@utcs)
perry@well.UUCP (Perry S. Kivolowitz) (11/21/86)
In article <1986Nov19.104846.321@utcs.uucp>, wagner@utcs.uucp (Michael Wagner) writes: > Bob Page suggested, in his article, that Amiga software would prevent a > DMA hard disk from performing well. I don't understand this. Did I mis-interpret > his statement? Or can someone fill me in on this? The jist of what Bob Page said (that DMA and Non-DMA disk controllers will perform at roughly the same speed) is correct. The speed at which a disk controller can squirt a block to/from the amiga is not the bottleneck. Witness brand X whose controller is capable of squirts to/from the Amiga at 300KB/sec (DMA). Compare this with brand Y whose controller does not transfer via DMA and is capable of only 100KB peak xfer rate. Which will run faster? Who knows...it depends on disk layout. Why? Because the throughput through the AmigaDOS file system is low enough that neither controller will run at full speed (ie brand X will never get to really take advantage of the 300KB/sec since disk i/o time is dominated by seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeking). You may say: But this happens on many systems. You'd be right too. But most other file system formats do not get as scattered as AmigaDOS can become after similar interactive useage. What about super high performance controllers then? Those wanting to design THE high performance disk controller for the amiga will have to look elsewhere for their performance boosts. We (ASDG) are. Perry ----------- The above reflects my personal opinion and is the result of my own invest- igations.
wagner@utcs.UUCP (11/22/86)
Perry: Can you comment on whether the performance problems would be helped by disk architectures with larger cylinders (i.e. more data under the heads before a seek). Another thought: how much will 1.2 caching help? How about Matt's idea of caching all blocks in a track, i.e. if you invested the time to read them in, put them into the cache. Michael
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU.UUCP (11/23/86)
I beg to disagree. DMA offloads the work from the CPU. Thus, disk transfers do not slow down the computer in general (i.e. other processes doing other things) When using DMA, you generally do not have disable interrupts or get into nasty timing problems. I have no desire to lose characters on the serial port due to some idiot's idea of a hard-drive interface. Lastly, the transfer time IS dependant on the disk->computer transfer rate. Even assuming it must do a lot of tracking, there is still always that transfer time when the data is finally ready to be sent. IBM HD's are MUCH faster than Amiga HD's simply because they are DMA. Besides, executables are usually contiguous (if not, you can MAKE them contiguous). I would rather have LC1/LC2 load in 4 seconds than 8.. or less. Personally, I'm not going to even look at the HD market for the Amiga until some good DMA drives (or SCSI controllers) come out. -Matt Dillon
GPOTTS@oregon.uoregon.edu (Geoffrey Potts) (01/12/90)
In the Feb. 1990 issue of AmigaWorld, at the back, they have a fine-print listing of companies that they recommend you not do business with. I do not know how they make this judgement (perhaps advertizing bills not paid?), but they state that C-Ltd is no longer a viable company. gpotts@oregon.uoregon.edu
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (01/12/90)
In article <13958@oregon.uoregon.edu> GPOTTS@oregon.uoregon.edu (Geoffrey Potts) writes: |In the Feb. 1990 issue of AmigaWorld, at the back, they have a fine-print |listing of companies that they recommend you not do business with. I do not |know how they make this judgement (perhaps advertizing bills not paid?), but ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >they state that C-Ltd is no longer a viable company. It is usually two things: unpaid ads (as you mention) and complaints from customers that responded to ads or What's New announcements. I am not speking for AmigaWorld. Just referring what is standard practice. -- Marco -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/13/90)
In <13958@oregon.uoregon.edu>, GPOTTS@oregon.uoregon.edu (Geoffrey Potts) writes: >In the Feb. 1990 issue of AmigaWorld, at the back, they have a fine-print >listing of companies that they recommend you not do business with. I do not >know how they make this judgement (perhaps advertizing bills not paid?), but >they state that C-Ltd is no longer a viable company. C Ltd., in my opinion, was not a good company to do business with even when they were CardCo, producing half-baked peripherals for the C64. They were not a good company to do business with when they were C Ltd., producing half-baked peripherals for the Amiga. They were not a good company to do business with when they became 'Linden Labs doing business as C Ltd.', though by that time they had come out with a fairly decent, if unsupported (by them), non-DMA HD controller. They are most certainly not a good company to do business with now that they have gone belly-up. Never fear though.. C Ltd. will be back, under some other name, spreading misinformation about any peripherals that they don't happen to make, and burning a lot of folks once more. It just remains to be seen what name of the bad penny is when it shows up again. Ptui! Disclaimer: The above is my considered opinion only, based upon the shoddy treatment received by several friends by said companies. -larry -- "Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/14/90)
In <90014.125436JKT100@PSUVM.BITNET>, JKT100@PSUVM.BITNET (JKT) writes: >In article <1007@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca>, lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry >Phillips) says: >>C Ltd., in my opinion, was not a good company to do business with even >>when they were CardCo, producing half-baked peripherals for the C64. >>They were not a good company to do business with when they were C Ltd., >>producing half-baked peripherals for the Amiga. > >I, for one, was very satisfied with CardCo products - They were well >designed, nicely priced, and had long lifetimes. Does this sound like >a company that still exists now? Yes: SUPRA. Cardco was bought out >by Supra, not C. Ltd. I purchased CardCo products, was satified >(my CardCo printer interface for my 64 is still working), and I will >buy Supra prodcuts in the future. Perhaps Supra bought the assets of CardCo when they went under. I can assure you that the principal mover in C Ltd. came out of the ashes of CardCo and started C Ltd. I have the utmost respect for Supra. I have zero respect for the person who treated every customer like yet another sucker, when he was CardCo, C Ltd. and Linden Labs doing business as C Ltd. Supra supports their customers; from my personal experience and that of close friends, CardCo, C Ltd, and Linden Labs dba C Ltd. did not. Perhaps 'half-baked' was too strong a term for cardCo products. They were more like 'nearly there', and trying to penetrate the wall of technical doubletalk bullshit with CardCo was an excercise in futility. I ended up peddling off the CardCo interface to someone who didn't need to have it work as advertised. I stand by what I said about C Ltd. and their half-baked products. Disk enclosures without fans that caused extreme overheating; the same enclosures with fans, said fans being mounted on a piece of aluminum hacked to shape with a pair of tinsnips and hot-melt-glued in place; plastic drill shavings all over the inside of the enclosure; a power supply that was almost adequate for the job, placed where it could block the most airflow with its non-component side. Sickening. This is not to mention their promises broken, and outright lies proferred when asked about ship dates missed by weeks and months; the promise that an OMTI controller 'definitely worked', only to be finally forced to admit that "well, we are working on it", after months of time, trouble, and expense trying to figure out the problem; their constant technobabble about the inherent superiority of programmed I/O over DMA, latching onto a single bug in one other manufacturer's controller to 'prove' their point; their promise to ship a 'TimeSaver' to anyone who could come up with the solution to a problem, said solution being forthcoming, used by them, but with no appearance of the TimeSaver to the person supplying the solution. That's just their customers. They also were instrumental in the demise of SoftCircuits, having paid a programmer to steal work already done by the programmer, and owned by SoftCircuits, then refusing to pay SoftCircuits for the work. Interestingly, they didn't bother to pay the programmer either, and he is trying to sue them. Another friend of mine said it very well. He works for a company that bought quite a few C Ltd. products. He said that though they are now left with a number of orphaned cards, the strongest emotion they can muster at the demise of C Ltd. is one of relief. Before I step down off my soapbox, let me say again that I have the utmost respect for Supra, and in no way wish to malign them or their products, of which I own at least one. -larry -- "Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
JKT100@PSUVM.BITNET (JKT) (01/15/90)
In article <1007@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca>, lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) says: >C Ltd., in my opinion, was not a good company to do business with even >when they were CardCo, producing half-baked peripherals for the C64. >They were not a good company to do business with when they were C Ltd., >producing half-baked peripherals for the Amiga. I, for one, was very satisfied with CardCo products - They were well designed, nicely priced, and had long lifetimes. Does this sound like a company that still exists now? Yes: SUPRA. Cardco was bought out by Supra, not C. Ltd. I purchased CardCo products, was satified (my CardCo printer interface for my 64 is still working), and I will buy Supra prodcuts in the future. Kurt -- ======================================================================== || Kurt Tappe (814) 862-8630 || "This town needs an enema." || || 600 E. Pollock Rd., #5705 || - Joker || || State College, PA 16801 || || || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet or --------------------------------------|| || jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 or jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu || ========================================================================
scott@wilbur.uucp (Scott Beckstead) (01/15/90)
In article <1007@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> Larry Phillips writes: > > >Never fear though.. C Ltd. will be back, under some other name, spreading >misinformation about any peripherals that they don't happen to make, and >burning a lot of folks once more. It just remains to be seen what name of the >bad penny is when it shows up again. Ptui! > >Disclaimer: The above is my considered opinion only, based upon the shoddy >treatment received by several friends by said companies. > >-larry > >-- >"Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| // Larry Phillips | >| \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | >| COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Well I never had a problem either with them or their support. I have had the scsi disk controller for about 2 years now and am reasonably pleased with it's performance. However I never did get a complete manual. The one I got is on a disk which developed a read error in the middle of the document and have never asked for or received a new one. OOPS I am running on scsidos 2.6 or so and I was wondering if someone could be kind enough to send me 3.0 and a manual file for it? I had printed docs for the old one but they have been lost. It's a good thing I didn't send them the 20 dollars for 3.0 i guess. (I just learned about that from a corrupted archive of 3.0 that was on a local BBS ). Any help would be appreciated as the archive on even their BBS was corrupted. Scott
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/15/90)
In <25b1650a:3886.1comp.sys.amiga;1@tronsbox.UUCP>, tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) writes: > > [ a lot of happy storires about C Ltd. deleted ...] > Yes, I'll save the bandwidth by not sending you the gory details of the horror stories. What I find fascinating is that I have had this same discussion with a couple of other folks. At the time of the discussion, they were pleased with C Ltd. products and service, and knew of nobody in their area who was displeased with it, while folks around here were still being treated like suckers at a shell game. Go figure. -larry -- "Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) (01/15/90)
>Author: [Larry Phillips] > Subj: re: C-Ltd > Keyw: > Date: Sun Jan 14 1990 18:57 writes: >C Ltd., in my opinion, was not a good company to do business with even when >they were CardCo, producing half-baked peripherals for the C64. They were not Well, I suppose that depends on what you mean. I ran a computer store in a local mall and sold lotsa Cardco stuff. It wasnt GREAT , but it was inexepensive and did it's job to the customers satisfaction. >when they became 'Linden Labs doing business as C Ltd.', though by that time >they had come out with a fairly decent, if unsupported (by them), non-DMA >HD controller. They are most certainly not a good company to do business with >now that they have gone belly-up. I had a C.ltd one meg interface for a year a while back (I sold it to buy a 2 meg) .. and never had a prblem. I have been running (for 3 years solid) a origional form of the 20 meg C.Ltd hard drive. In all that time, the interface and software were rock solid. The system autoconfigured when such was available, ran FFS without a hitch and never complained. THIS is more than I can say about some HD companies that will be nameless. I have been running a C.ltd Timesaver keyboard enhancer (the only one of its type in more than limited use in the world was produced by C.ltd for tha Amiga). THIS is another peice of hardware that has ALWAYS done what it was supposed to , was well priced and a fantastic addition to my Amiga. The one time it did go belly up on me (1.5 YEARS out of warrenty) The sent me a new one , UPS RED , FREE, before they received MINE! I run the C.ltd 10 MEG removable system. I had this baby more than a YEAR before the one from Supra came out .. (it is funny that the Supra drive got acclaim from the media, but the EARLIER, FASTER and more reliable C.Ltd product was never mentioned).... This has also NEVER given me a problem. When I got it , they upgraded the SCSI controlled I was running to the new design FREE. (there is nothing like saying "copy dh0: to kt1: all" as your backup!) To the point , ever C.ltd device I have purchased did what it said it would , over long periods of time. The software was "standard" (mountlist and autoconfig) before many other folks and the service was SUPERIOR. >misinformation about any peripherals that they don't happen to make, and >burning a lot of folks once more. It just remains to be seen what name of the >bad penny is when it shows up again. Ptui! Hmm.. that doesnt sound like the C.ltd >I< knew .. , actually , it sounds like A.*.D.G .. (I have listened to many a "we are the only ones who know what we are doing" speech.) ( and in fact at one computer show saw a A.*.D.G rep PHYSICALLY put his coat on a competitors products to hide them). >Disclaimer: The above is my considered opinion only, based upon the shoddy >treatment received by several friends by said companies. Ditto for mine (previous paragraph.) DISCLAIMER: My opinion is skewed by the fact that I have sold DOZENS of C.ltd products to customers over 3 years and never had ONE person complain. BTW: I have defended them because they were attacked, I said my peice. Dont send me your horror stories and I wont send you my happy ones and we'll save a LOT of bandwidth. (Beside, I am one of those people that have never had a Seagate drive go belly up either and most say that makes me charmed so I wont beleive you) ***************************************************************************** Everything I say is (c) Copr. 1990, except the stuff I stole from someone el se and the stuff I don't want responsibility for. Kenneth J. Jamieson: Xanadu Enterprises Inc. "Professional Amiga Software" UUCP: tron1@tronsbox.UUCP BEST PATH ---> uunet!tronsbox!tron1 Sysop, Romantic Encounters BBS - (201)759-8450 / (201)759-8568 **************************************************************************** *
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (01/16/90)
In <2974@netxcom.DHL.COM>, ewiles@netxdev.DHL.COM (Edwin Wiles) writes: >Larry, > I'm somewhat bemused by your attitude towards C-Ltd, and your > apparent praise for Supra. I've owned a C-Ltd SCSI interface > and 50Mb HD for quite some time now. Not only did the case > look professionally done, but it has NEVER given me the > slightest bit of trouble! As I have mentioned, my opinions about C Ltd. and Supra are the direct result of my experiences with them, of the experiences related to me by friends, and of having seen the garbage innards of one of their drives. The experiences of others notwithstanding, I stand by my statements, including the one that says that there are others who got good products ande service from them. -- "Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
billsey@agora.UUCP (Bill Seymour) (01/16/90)
In article <1032@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca: lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: :In <90014.125436JKT100@PSUVM.BITNET:, JKT100@PSUVM.BITNET (JKT) writes: ::I, for one, was very satisfied with CardCo products - They were well ::designed, nicely priced, and had long lifetimes. Does this sound like ::a company that still exists now? Yes: SUPRA. Cardco was bought out ::by Supra, not C. Ltd. I purchased CardCo products, was satified ::(my CardCo printer interface for my 64 is still working), and I will ::buy Supra prodcuts in the future. : :Perhaps Supra bought the assets of CardCo when they went under. I can assure :you that the principal mover in C Ltd. came out of the ashes of CardCo and :started C Ltd. That's exactly what happened. When Cardco went under, Ed took all the Amiga products (at that time just the aMEGA and SCSI interface) with him to form C-Ltd. The older C=64 stuff went on the block and were eventually picked up by Supra. : [Lot's of stuff pertaining to C-Ltd. troubles] One of the big problems that kicked up there was when they switched from having CMI do teir software/hardware to having SoftCircuits do it all. There was a fairly long period of time where they *had* to say `We're working on it', with not much chance of seeing results for months... They eventually fixed that when all the re-writing was done. :That's just their customers. They also were instrumental in the demise of :SoftCircuits, having paid a programmer to steal work already done by the :programmer, and owned by SoftCircuits, then refusing to pay SoftCircuits for :the work. Interestingly, they didn't bother to pay the programmer either, and :he is trying to sue them. At least CMI eventually won a judgement against them (for the tune of about $50K, I think)... Too bad C-Ltd. went bankrupt just as their time to pay that off was up... :-) Now the exCMI people will never see any of it. Bill :-larry : :-- :"Cavett Emptor - Let the talk show host beware!" - Evan Marcus :+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ :| // Larry Phillips | :| \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | :| COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | :+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- -Bill Seymour ...tektronix!reed!percival!agora!billsey ============================================================================= Bejed, Inc. NES, Inc. Northwest Amiga Group At Home Sometimes (503) 281-8153 (503) 246-9311 (503) 656-7393 BBS (503) 640-0842
ewiles@netxdev.DHL.COM (Edwin Wiles) (01/17/90)
Larry,
I'm somewhat bemused by your attitude towards C-Ltd, and your
apparent praise for Supra. I've owned a C-Ltd SCSI interface
and 50Mb HD for quite some time now. Not only did the case
look professionally done, but it has NEVER given me the
slightest bit of trouble!
Contrast that with the number of "Help me I bought a Supra"
messages that you see regularly in this newsgroup.
Who's got the better product? Don't tell me Supra! Not after
seeing all those messages! When I got my C-Ltd drive and
interface I literally plugged it all together and it worked!
Now how many Supra's do you know of that they managed to do that with?
"Who?... Me?... WHAT opinions?!?" | Edwin Wiles
Schedule: (n.) An ever changing nightmare. | NetExpress, Inc.
...!{hadron,sundc,pyrdc,uunet}!netxcom!ewiles | 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300
ewiles@iad-nxe.global-mis.DHL.COM | Vienna, VA 22182perry@madnix.UUCP (Perry Kivolowitz) (01/17/90)
In article <25b1650a:3886.1comp.sys.amiga;1@tronsbox.UUCP> tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) writes: >Hmm.. that doesnt sound like the C.ltd >I< knew .. , actually , it sounds >like A.*.D.G .. (I have listened to many a "we are the only ones who know >what we are doing" speech.) ( and in fact at one computer show saw a A.*.D.G >rep PHYSICALLY put his coat on a competitors products to hide them). Hey Bud. Get your quotes right. We never say ``we are the only ones who know what we are doing.'' In fact, we don't even say ``we are one of the few groups that know what they're doing.'' What we do say is: ``We know what we're doing.'' If asked a specific question about a specific product from another manufacturer, and if we know the answer, we answer. What you don't know is that several Amiga market hardware manufacturers have sent their hardware to us for us to tell them what's wrong with their products. When we say such-and-such has a specific problem, it's because we know it has the problem we say it has and have fully detailed the problem's nature to the manufacturer. Also, which show exactly did you see this cover up occur at? Who was the rep. What was his name. What coat size did he have? What was the ambient air temperature at the time and was the fellow warm? (In other words: what a useless non-constructive comment you have there madam.) -- Perry Kivolowitz, ASDG Inc. ``We look for things. Things that make us go.'' UUCP: {harvard|rutgers|ucbvax}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!perry CIS: 76004,1765 PLINK: pk-asdg
Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (01/17/90)
I agree with Larry... Boy could I tell you all a story concerning Cltd and what I went through when my HD died after 3 months of use. Anyone who had good luck with Cltd.. it was just that GOOD LUCK! Cltd even fired one of their employees when he told me the truth about what was going on!! Larry, I don't think you were to hard on them at ALL... I think you were to easy! I can't say enough BAD THINGS about the rip off artists! SCUM, pure SCUM! It could not have happend to a nicer company. - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
nicthu@mcorp.UUCP (Nick "Watchdog" Thurn @ MMS International, Columbus, Ohio) (01/18/90)
I have the "new" C Ltd. KRONOS-2000 hard drive controller, and I think it's one heck of a piece of hardware. I did have some trouble upgrading from my old C Ltd. controller, but after calling their support department and pulling together parts of the documentation from about five different sections into the right order, I got it up OK. It autoboots from FFS and it's FAST. By the way, does anyone have benchmark stats comparing the C Ltd. "non-DMA" controllers to other companies' DMA ones? I didn't really have a choice for controller brand, because I bought my 2000 in a package deal. I'm sorry to hear that people had such bad experiences with C Ltd., and even sorrier to see them go out of business. I hope the KRONOS series is not the cause of their demise, because it seems to be pretty solid. Nick osu!mcorp!nicthu
rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (the Wizard of Speed and Time) (01/18/90)
Well, I'd like to thank Perry for his posting. Now I KNOW I'll never buy anything from ASDG. -- Rich Carreiro - Most Biased Boston Celtics Fan! "So long, farewell, and may ARPA: rlcarr@space.mit.edu the forces of evil become UUCP: ...!mit-eddie!space.mit.edu!rlcarr confused on the way to your BITNET: rlcarr@space.mit.edu door!" - George Carlin
uzun@pnet01.cts.com (Roger Uzun) (01/18/90)
>>Now I know I'll never buy anything from ASDG.
In that case you will be the worse for your decision. I have heard some
rather scathing things from ASDG on the net as well, but I have met the people
from ASDG at a couple of shows and they are always polite, helpful and
competant. Sometimes they sound a little short tempered on the net, but that
is, I believe, because they care so much about their amiga products. I have
purchased a few ASDG products and they always perform well, and flawlessly.
You can see that they spend quite a bit of time using, and debugging their
line, and it shows. At least you are as certain as one can be that you will
not be abandoned by the manufacturer, in ASDG's case, and the design of all of
their products has been, in my experience, quite sound.
I have no connection with ASDG except as a customer.
-Roger Uzun
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd ucsd nosc}!crash!pnet01!uzun
ARPA: crash!pnet01!uzun@nosc.mil
INET: uzun@pnet01.cts.comfilbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us (Bela Lubkin) (01/19/90)
In article <1032@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca> Larry Phillips writes: >[...] I have the utmost respect for Supra. I have zero respect for the >person who treated every customer like yet another sucker, when he was CardCo, >C Ltd. and Linden Labs doing business as C Ltd. Supra supports their customers; >[...] Supra has in some ways supported me very well, but I've gotten no satisfaction from them on one problem. I have this big SCSI drive which is hard-sectored at 256 bytes/sec. My Supra 4x4 interface will not support this drive. When I asked a Supra technical type about it at the Santa Clara AmiExpo, the response I got might as well have been "fuck you, go away." I'll readily admit that the market for this driver feature is small. The effort required to support it is also small. All they have to do is request blocks (2n) and (2n+1) from the drive every time AmigaDOS asks for block (n). BFD. I was given a bunch of foofaraw technobabble runaround by the Supra techie. Nobody will ever convince me that this feature is technically difficult. The Supra tech certainly convinced me that he and his company didn't give a shit about my business or good will. C. Ltd.'s driver supported 256 byte/sec drives, and I was going to buy a Kronos controller, but I guess that's out now (no, I don't want your used-and-unsupported Kronos/1000, unless you want to practically give it away...) Unless one other possibility pans out, I'm going to have to give up and use this drive in my AT clone. bleah. * Vote in progress: comp.sys.amiga.hardware; ends 1/22. See call for votes * * in news.announce.newgroups. Unambiguous YES/NO's to trent@ucscb.ucsc.edu * -- Bela Lubkin * * // filbo@gorn.santa-cruz.ca.us CI$: 73047,1112 (slow) @ * * // belal@sco.com ..ucbvax!ucscc!{gorn!filbo,sco!belal} R Pentomino * \X/ Filbo @ Pyrzqxgl +408-476-4633 and XBBS +408-476-4945
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) (01/20/90)
> Resp: 4 of 5 by *Masked* at madnix.UUCP >Author: [Perry Kivolowitz] > Date: Fri Jan 19 1990 06:17 > Lines: 27 > >In article <25b1650a:3886.1comp.sys.amiga;1@tronsbox.UUCP> tron1@tronsbox.UUCP >(HIM) writes: >>Hmm.. that doesnt sound like the C.ltd >I< knew .. , actually , it sounds >>like A.*.D.G .. (I have listened to many a "we are the only ones who know >>what we are doing" speech.) ( and in fact at one computer show saw a A.*.D.G >>rep PHYSICALLY put his coat on a competitors products to hide them). > >Hey Bud. Get your quotes right. We never say ``we are the only ones who know >what we are doing.'' In fact, we don't even say ``we are one of the few groups >that know what they're doing.'' What we do say is: ``We know what we're >doing.'' Ahem. Actually , you did specifically say "It's a wonder even Commodore understands that [the A1000 expansion bus] the way we do.". And , in fact , it was YOU that said it. (You were discussing this with a customer of Family Computer Center on rt 46 who was asking about memory cards). I will , howvere state this for the record. YOU DO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. All the ASDG product I have seen/heard about did what they were supposed to do. >What you don't know is that several Amiga market hardware >manufacturers have sent their hardware to us for us to tell them what's wrong >with their products. When we say such-and-such has a specific problem, it's >because we know it has the problem we say it has and have fully detailed the >problem's nature to the manufacturer. I would be inpressed except at the time of this attitude you weren't at that stage yet, so this is not something you grew into. >Also, which show exactly did you see this cover up occur at? Who was the >rep. What was his name. What coat size did he have? What was the ambient >air temperature at the time and was the fellow warm? (In other words: >what a useless non-constructive comment you have there madam.) Family Computer Computer show (1986). You were the rep. Perry is the name. I am not sure the size but large. about 87 - 90 degrees , yes he was war m , however , there were many chairs to put it on that did not involve covering a competitor's (in this case C.ltd) product. BTW -- it was mentioned to you and you said "so what" and left the coat. Well, taking bets on how much bandwidth this will waste? **************************************************************************** Everything I say is Copr. 1990, except the stuff I stole from someone else and the stuff I don't want responsibility for. Kenneth J. Jamieson: Xanadu Enterprises Inc. "Professional Amiga Software" UUCP: tron1@tronsbox.UUCP BEST PATH ---> uunet!tronsbox!tron1 Sysop, Romantic Encounters BBS - (201)759-8450 / (201)759-8568 ****************************************************************************
bevis@EE.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Jeff Bevis) (01/21/90)
In article <2974@netxcom.DHL.COM>, ewiles@netxdev.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: > Who's got the better product? Don't tell me Supra! Not after > seeing all those messages! When I got my C-Ltd drive and > interface I literally plugged it all together and it worked! > > Now how many Supra's do you know of that they managed to do that with? > "Who?... Me?... WHAT opinions?!?" | Edwin Wiles Here's one! I just plugged it in and it worked! (acutally, I put together a customized system, so I had to make a cable and put the drive in a box..) The software made it very easy to use, and the documentation was pretty good. Just plugged it all in, booted Supra's floppies, and was guided through formatting and installation quite simply... I'm certainly satisified. It worked the first time. (the first time I ever used a hard drive.) And at least my company is still in business! :-) +--------------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | Jeff Bevis | "But I don't like spam!" | | bevis@en.ecn.purdue.edu | Give me Amiga or nothing at all. | +--------------------------------+--------------------------------------------+
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) (01/21/90)
>purchased a few ASDG products and they always perform well, and flawlessly. >You can see that they spend quite a bit of time using, and debugging their I have never doubtred that ASDG is >GOOD< and that their stuff works. But it is the abusive attitude that turns me off. **************************************************************************** Everything I say is Copr. 1990, except the stuff I stole from someone else and the stuff I don't want responsibility for. Kenneth J. Jamieson: Xanadu Enterprises Inc. "Professional Amiga Software" UUCP: tron1@tronsbox.UUCP BEST PATH ---> uunet!tronsbox!tron1 Sysop, Romantic Encounters BBS - (201)759-8450 / (201)759-8568 ****************************************************************************
rusty@fe2o3.UUCP (Rusty Haddock) (01/23/90)
In article <9001210144.AA22160@en.ecn.purdue.edu> bevis@EE.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Jeff Bevis) writes: >In article <2974@netxcom.DHL.COM>, ewiles@netxdev.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: >> Who's got the better product? Don't tell me Supra! Not after >> seeing all those messages! When I got my C-Ltd drive and >> interface I literally plugged it all together and it worked! >> Now how many Supra's do you know of that they managed to do that with? >> "Who?... Me?... WHAT opinions?!?" | Edwin Wiles >Here's one! I just plugged it in and it worked! (acutally, I put together >a customized system, so I had to make a cable and put the drive in a box..) >The software made it very easy to use, and the documentation was pretty good. >Just plugged it all in, booted Supra's floppies, and was guided through >formatting and installation quite simply... I'm certainly satisified. It >worked the first time. (the first time I ever used a hard drive.) I have to go along with Jeff, my Supra WordSync(TM) SCSI controller worked first time and every time after I made the necessary SCSI and power cables for my Zorro I box attached to my A1000. Yes, I said Zorro ONE expansion box! After going to the otherwisely dismal World of CBM in Valley Forge last year and seeing a non-DMA, half-card SCSI controller at Supra's booth, I got the number for their technical folk. I talked to a Willie Brown about stuffing their WordSync controller into my old CSA Turbo Amiga expansion box. Mr Brown was quiet an enjoyable person to talk to and, after checking the diff's 'tween the Zorro I and II bus spec's, couldn't see why it wouldn't work. The salesperson, aware of this situation, said there wouldn't be any problem (or restocking charges) for returning the board if it didn't work with my Zorro I box. Estatic at this point I ordered the critter. Like I said above, once I made the proper cables and (mechnically) mounted my own Quantum Q40 into my Turbo Amiga enclosure everything worked just peachy and has every since! The access speed hasn't been all that shabby either! -Rusty- P.S. This should also work so you folks owning ASDG's mini-Racks. -- Rusty Haddock o {uunet,att,rutgers}!mimsy.umd.edu!fe2o3!rusty Laurel, Maryland o "IBM sucks silicon!" -- PC Banana Jr, "Bloom County"
ewiles@netxdev.DHL.COM (Edwin Wiles) (01/24/90)
EW>In article <2974@netxcom.DHL.COM>, ewiles@netxdev.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: EW> Who's got the better product? Don't tell me Supra! Not after EW> seeing all those messages! When I got my C-Ltd drive and EW> interface I literally plugged it all together and it worked! EW> Now how many Supra's do you know of that they managed to do that with? JB>In article <9001210144.AA22160@en.ecn.purdue.edu> bevis@EE.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Jeff Bevis) writes: JB>Here's one! I just plugged it in and it worked! (acutally, I put together JB>a customized system, so I had to make a cable and put the drive in a box..) JB>The software made it very easy to use, and the documentation was pretty good. JB>Just plugged it all in, booted Supra's floppies, and was guided through JB>formatting and installation quite simply... I'm certainly satisified. It JB>worked the first time. (the first time I ever used a hard drive.) RH>In article <285@fe2o3.UUCP> rusty@fe2o3.UUCP (Rusty Haddock) writes: RH>I have to go along with Jeff, my Supra WordSync(TM) SCSI controller RH>worked first time and every time after I made the necessary SCSI and RH>power cables for my Zorro I box attached to my A1000. Yes, I said RH>Zorro ONE expansion box! [...EW Again...] I'll answer both of you as follows. NEITHER of you "simply plugged it together and it worked". Each of you performed customization of one form or another. Jeff, you had to make a cable, and put the drive into a box. Rusty, you not only had to make an SCSI cable, you also had to make a power cable, as well as doing a lot of tech work to make sure whether or not your setup would work. Neither of you did what I did, which was to simply plug the power cable into my drive, and into the wall; Plug the SCSI cable into the drive, as well as the SCSI interface box; Plug the SCSI interface box into the pass-thru on my Amiga; Turn everything on, and boot from their floppy. EACH of you had to peform some special task which I did not have to. I do not doubt that you also had to work on formatting your drive, which I did not. It struck me as particularly appropriate that C-Ltd effectively tested each drive that they sent out by not only formatting it for use, but also by putting roughly 10K of public domain software on it. This assured that it was working correctly before it ever left their hands. I've lost count of the number of times that people have posted to this newsgroup asking for help in preping hard drives purchased from other dealers, including Supra. I have yet to see one posting about a C-Ltd HD in that condition. I will grant that it appears some people were given a raw deal by C-Ltd, but I would like to point out that it seems quite a few more were left by other manufacturers/suppliers with products that they could not use easily due to a requirement by that manufacturer/supplier that they have technical knowledge beyond that held by the average person. RH>Willie Brown about stuffing their WordSync controller into my old RH>CSA Turbo Amiga expansion box. Mr Brown was quiet an enjoyable While I don't doubt that Mr. Brown was indeed helpful, not everyone can go to the few Expo's they do have. To my knowledge, not one has been within 100 miles of Wash. D.C. (I might not have seen the notices if there had been one, but I expect I would, being a regular reader of the network.) And carrying on such a conversation over long distance phone durring buisness hours quickly gets VERY expensive. Ahhh, well. I suppose like editors, it's a bit of a religious issue which is unlikely to be decided over the network. Enjoy! "Who?... Me?... WHAT opinions?!?" | Edwin Wiles Schedule: (n.) An ever changing nightmare. | NetExpress, Inc. ...!{hadron,sundc,pyrdc,uunet}!netxcom!ewiles | 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 ewiles@iad-nxe.global-mis.DHL.COM | Vienna, VA 22182