hamilton@intersil.uucp (Fred Hamilton) (02/26/90)
There have been many requests for the Rejuvenator vs. DVS-Wonder message that
appeared in my site's "Junk" bin. Apparently half the people have seen it
before (so my apologies to them), but many people sent me mail saying they
could not find it in any of the c.s.a. groups. (Including the new csa.hardware)
Right now there is an entire thread concerning "where can I find the Walker
demos" in Junk. If you have seen this thread, please send me mail letting me
know what newsgroup you saw it in so maybe I can track down this problem.
Thanks. Rejuvenator-Wonder comparison follows:
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Rejuvenator vs wonderboard info
Message-ID: <2317@ucqais.uc.edu>
From: ggibeau@ucqais.uc.edu (AMOEBOID)
Date: 23 Feb 90 01:03:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U.C. Dept. of Biology
Keywords: comparison, facts and tech info
Lines: 241
Recently on Genie there was a posting regarding the comparisons between
the Rejuvenator and the DVS Wonderboard. Evidently it was full of
much disinformation. Here is a rather involved response from Greg
Tibbs along with some more info on the Rejuvenator card.
--------------------------clip here -----------------------------------
Dear Mr. Kahler,
1. I'm responding towards your recent messages regarding your comparison
between your product, the DVS-Wonder and the A1000 Rejuvenator. First
lets state that your comparison was not fair as it contained several
out and out falsehoods. This message is long as it contains my response
and a technical analysis of the two designs' relative merits.
First, the Rejuvenator has an OKI M6242B clock, the same one as
in the A500 & A2000. This has been in nearly every product posting
that I've made, so you either are having difficulty reading, or are
misleading people. This strains your credibility.
Second, in your feature comparison, you convienently forgot to mention
the fact that the Rejuvenator has an A2000 style video slot. Since
your 'fair' comparison was designed for your product to have a
'Yes' answer to nearly all the features, it's obvious to see why you
might forget to mention it.
2. Your original 'official press release' posting said your design converts
motherboard RAM to 'Pseudo' fast RAM. I take it that this memory is still on
the CHIP RAM bus and must incur all the CHIP RAM performance penalties.
The Rejuvenator turns your motherboard RAM into TRUE 100% fast RAM.
No ifs, ands, or buts here. I benchmarked a 68010/Rejuvenated A1000 with
its motherboard RAM enabled as FAST RAM and disabled, but with a Spirit
Technologies RAM board populated to 1.5 megabytes. With the Spirit RAM, the
Ronin accelerator benchmark showed a speed of 1.01. With my true
FAST RAM, it showed a repeatable 1.05 benchmark. Obviously my RAM
design is at least 4% more efficient than Spirit's.
3. There is still a lot of used software out there like Archon, SkyFox,
ArcticFox, etc, that only run under Kickstart 1.1. Developers may have
Pre-release software that they'd like to drag out and look
at, if only for nostalgic reasons. Other than a couple of extra
product terms in my PALS, it cost me nothing to have a Kickstart disk option.
Why doesn't your design allow a Kickstart disk to be used? Every A1000 should
have every Kickstart disk from 1.0 on (okay, some may have never gotten 1.0),
if they weren't lost in a resale.
4. Having four ROM sockets is absurd. Four ROM sockets adds unneeded capacitance
to an already bad bus loading situation. Second, as the ROM sockets are used,
you significantly increase the loading of the 68000 address bus. Tri-state
leakage will also add slightly to the loading of the data bus. While I
grant that the old Kickstart daughterboard was part of the problem, the 68000
will only suffer so many TTL loads before it becomes unstable.
5. Let's talk RAM addressing. How many different locations can your motherboard
RAM be located? Do your PALs support the 1 Megabyte piggyback hack? Does
it support it for autoconfiguration at C00000H? The Rejuvenator does. It can
address the motherboard RAM at C00000H, A00000H, 700000H, and if Kickstart
Disk mode is selected, F00000H. If someone cannot set the jumpers to be
compatible, I can make special PALs covering any addressing scheme.
6.Let's discuss the Rejuvenator's lack of the switchable audio filtering:
First, how do you get the audio out of the machine? If you intend to run
wires to the existing RCA jacks, then you must cut traces on the motherboard.
That is one of the important design philosophies I used when creating the
Rejuvenator: No motherboard modifications for ANY REASON! Nearly every
Amiga magazine has published a method to duplicate the audio filter
switch hack by 'dead bugging' one IC on the motherboard.
Another possibility on how you did your filter switch is that the DVS-Wonder
has its own RCA jacks, or cables that have to be run out the machine?
Do you have to modify or get rid of the RF shield if this method is used?
The Rejuvenator fits beneath the RF shield, even allowing space for
a video slot card without necessitating getting rid of the shield.
7. The next DVS-Wonder feature I have questions about is: What address did
you decode the ROM enable latch(es)? Can it be relocated to clear a
potential conflict with someone's hardware expansion? How narrowly
is it decoded? The Rejuvenator uses a case mounted toggle switch for
that very reason. That way you don't need to decode an address space for
the latch, ensuring maximum compatibility.
Again, maximum compatibility is foremost in the Rejuvenator's design, even
to the point of 'sacrificing' software switching capability for a simple
switch.
8. In regards to Mr. Eckenrode's question on the Spirit Clock. It does fit
at DC0000H. The Rejuvenator's logic works such that if a Spirit board
is installed, the Rejuvenator's clock is tristated when the Spirit's
clock responds. Secondly, the OKI clock has had a fairly high failure
rate. This part will be socketed in the Rejuvenator. Is your's?
As a matter of fact, the majority of the ICs in the Rejuvenator are
socketed. Repair will be trivially easy. This also one of the reasons
that the Rejuvenator is more expensive.
9. Let's talk about quality: The Rejuvenator uses a 4 layer silk screened
soldermaksed PCB that costs nearly $80 by itself. The miniPCB used for
the video slot costs $15. We use the highest quality adapters, gold Molex
connectors, and machine pin socket strips. This attention to detail ensures
that the Rejuvenator is reliable, and will last.
10. I also have a question on how you do a 512K RAM version of the Wonder.
The easiest way is to use 256Kx1 DRAM chips. It would certainly be
the lowest cost. One problem to be aware of: The 512K version of the Fat
Agnus only puts out 9 refresh bits. If you use 256Kx4 DRAMs, did you build
a special refresh circuit to provide the required tenth refresh bit?
The Rejuvenator uses 256Kx4 DRAM for two reasons. First, you only need
eight DRAM chips to have one megabyte of RAM. This saves board space
(where'd you find linear board space for 4 ROMS without causing a
space conflict with internal expansions? Vertical stack?). It also
uses a lot less power than thirty-two 256Kx1 DRAMs.
11. Now for the real questions? What have you actually tested and found
to work with the Wonder? The Rejuvenator has been actually tested with the
following items:
8373R3 ECS DENISE (all extended video modes work)
SIDECAR
Spirit Technologies Ram board
Insider
CMI Accelerator
Technisoft RAM-BO
LUCAS acclerator
CMI accelerator
Tecmar Hard Disk System
A590
CBM ZorroI card cage with A2052 & Microbotics 8-UP
Palomax ST-506 Harddrive Interface
.... this list grows daily ....
To date, NOTHING tested has failed!
Your reply to Mr. Eckenrode implies that you actually haven't had hands on
experience with the Spirit board. Otherwise you'd know it had a clock that
was addressed at DC0000H.
12. For all of you out there who might be reading this, it's no longer
an easy choice, is it?
How about the fact that there is a major company who builds a popular A2000
video slot peripheral is going to offer a discount on that peripheral worth
more than the difference in price between the Wonder and the Rejuvenator
if you buy both? I'm not at liberty to say more, but details will be
announced at AmiExpo/DC on March 16.
13. For those of you didn't take the time to read the above, here's a
new, more accurate, product comparison chart:
Rejuvenator Wonder
=========== ======
Supports 1 Megabyte YES (including ???
MB piggyback hack autoconfig)
512K Chip RAM NO Why? (you've got 512K
already!)
1 Meg Chip RAM YES YES
ECS Denise YES (tested 100%) *2 YES
Kickstart ROM socket 1 4 (Why? This increases
bus loading!!!)
Kickstart Disk Mode Yes NO
Potential conflict in ROM/
DISK switch HW NO YES
Uses KS 1.2 - 1.4 YES YES
Uses KS pre 1.0-1.1 YES NO
Motherboard RAM turned
into pseudo-Fast RAM? NO YES
Motherboard RAM turned
into TRUE Fast RAM YES ???
Number of locations that
motherboard RAM may be 4 *3 ???
addressed:
Clock YES YES
Audio Filter Switch NO(do motherboard YES
hack, if needed)
Video Slot YES NO
4 layer PCB? YES ???
Keep RF shield? YES ???
Motherboard Trace cutting NO ???
or soldering?
Designed on an Amiga? YES! ???
90 day warranty YES ???
=======================================================
*1 The ECS Denise is not yet available.
*2 Expert Services can supply special PALs on request for
any addressing scheme
**************************************************************
14. As you can see above, the Wonder has a lot of unanswered questions.
15. The Rejuvenator is a product of Expert Services,
5912 Centennial Circle
Florence, KY 41042
(606) 371-9690
Pre-orders are now being accepted.
The Rejuvenator was designed with a special 4 layer version of
Boardmaster, a product of Blackbelt Systems on an Amiga A2000 with
an A2630 accelerator.
-Gregory B. Tibbs, Rejuvenator Designer
------------------------ clip here ---------------------------------------
hopefully this will clear up some unanswered questions.
Regards,
George
--
UUCP: ucqais.uc.edu!ggibeau BBS: (513) 721-7977 GT NODE: 006/005
US Snail-Dept of Biology ML 06, University of Cincinnati, Ohio 45221
---I mean what I say, and I say what I mean------
-----BUT, not at the same time!
--
Fred Hamilton Any views, comments, or ideas expressed here
Harris Semiconductor are entirely my own. Even good ones.
Santa Clara, CAapang@undergrad.cs.ubc.ca (Anthon 'Amiga' Pang) (02/27/90)
In article <89.25e8e493@intersil.uucp> hamilton@intersil.uucp (Fred Hamilton) writes: >There have been many requests for the Rejuvenator vs. DVS-Wonder message >that appeared in my site's "Junk" bin. >[rest of post deleted] Thanks for posting that message...our site never received it the first time. But then, I don't often look in the "junk" directory ("Trashcan"? :) Now, can someone with access to Genie repost the "comparison" from DVS ? (Perhaps the poster of the original DVS announcement at Penn State?)