ln63wkp@sdcc4.ucsd.edu (Viet Ho) (02/16/90)
All this whining about the Amiga not having enough
colors and res (I do it too) got me thinking... What is
it that the Amiga community is really lacking? Now I
do know there are quite a bit of talented folks out there
but the Amiga's graphics is lacking something else other
than ultra (1280X1024X24) graphics, it's it's human resources!
We don't have enough graphics artists on the Amiga.
Just the other day a friend of mine told me Jim Sachs
and Joe Conti were looking for some people to help
them out in some Amiga graphics project and couldn't
find any real artists. They eventually found some
high school kid who could draw on Amy during a high school demo.
This same thing happened to Compu-Animate in Arizona. I hear
some church organization wanted a 30 minute animation and
Compu-Animate found a local highschool kid who knows his way
with DPaintIII. Pretty amazing, huh?
-Vietsparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (02/20/90)
ln63wkp@sdcc4.ucsd.edu (Viet Ho) writes: >We don't have enough graphics artists on the Amiga. I am a fairly good computer graphics artist (IMNSHO) :-) But I can't find any work in the field around here! Go figure. Not much happens in the way of technology around Looneyville. The technological blackhole of the USA. So, I just piddle around and draw (on my Amiga) just for the fun of it. My actual JOB function is a combination Electrical Designer using AutoCAD and semi-commercial/business artist, making up business presentations for the boss to impress his bosses with. But that is on a IBM PC. I keep trying to get an Amiga in here, but no luck. It's viewed as a toy. I keep telling them that if it is just a toy, how come the Amiga can emulate an IBM, and Mac, but they can't emulate the Amiga? I am told "Why would they want to emulate the Amiga? It's just a toy." ARRRRRRGGHHH!!!![pulling my hair out] --- There are plenty of us computer graphic artist out here, we are just stuck using boring IBM PC machines, blech! -- John Sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps. Accessable via Starlink (Louisville KY) sparks@corpane.UUCP <><><><><><><><><><><> D.I.S.K. ph:502/968-5401 thru -5406 I want to live forever or die in the attempt.
Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com (02/26/90)
> it that the Amiga community is really lacking? Now I > do know there are quite a bit of talented folks out there > but the Amiga's graphics is lacking something else other > than ultra (1280X1024X24) graphics, it's it's human resources! > We don't have enough graphics artists on the Amiga. > Just the other day a friend of mine told me Jim Sachs > and Joe Conti were looking for some people to help > them out in some Amiga graphics project and couldn't > find any real artists. They eventually found some > high school kid who could draw on Amy during a high school demo. > This same thing happened to Compu-Animate in Arizona. I hear > some church organization wanted a 30 minute animation and > Compu-Animate found a local highschool kid who knows his way > with DPaintIII. Pretty amazing, huh? > -Viet Don't kid yourself. There are MANY talented artists able to use the Amiga superbly. I know more than a few. And what do you mean by 'real' artists? People who can copy photos? There's a lot more to art than that. The problem is money. People like to think artists can afford to work for peanuts. We spend our entire lives practising and studying and receive little or no compensation. I'll give you a few examples. I can research write, type, proofread and submit a manuscript for publication in about 4-15 hours (average 8) and I receive payment averaging $400 - $800 for my work. That's $50 to $100 per hour. I can create an image in Deluxe Paint III which is so realistic, it looks digitized (and would fool almost anyone unless they looked closely enough to see that the dithered pixel patterns are regular, which a digitizer doesn't do). For this I am lucky if I am offered between $50 to $100. Such an image takes me from 8-12 hours (average 10). Get out your calculator. It's $5.00 to $10.00 per hour. That's not taking into consideration the 8 years I spent in University learning design, composition, imagery, etc. etc. and thousands of hours of practise. In contrast, the very first article I ever submitted to a magazine was published. As was the second and the third and the fourth. I've invested very little time and energy learning to write. This isn't bragging. It's just a sad comment on how little people appreciate how much more difficult it is to learn art skills. So they pass it off as 'a gift' (I've heard that a million times) and assume I enjoy it so much that, hey, what do I need the money for? Animation is worse. It takes me an average of a month to do a 10 or 15-minute animation. Here we have not only the time it takes to do the graphics, but all the scripting, storyline, debugging, animating, etc. I think it was Amiga World that recently had an animation competition. I seem to recall those which were accepted would receive $50 as compensation. No we're looking at 25 cents an hour or less. Everyone promises us 'fame and recognition'. I've never had any desire for either. Fame and recognition are easy to achieve. You can't eat fame. And don't tell me it leads to jobs. In my experience, it leads to more people promising you fame and recognition. If I had my choice, I'd be drawing instead of writing. There's a very simple solution to the problem of finding good Amiga artists. Pay them what they're worth. I wouldn't be surprised if that quickly brought them out of the woodwork. How much did they pay those high school kids? \_ Julie Petersen (LadyHawke@cup.portal.com) )\_ _/ portal!cup.portal.com!LadyHawke `/)\_ __ // __ _____________________________________________ `\\)\_ / '~// /// `\\//\\/|'//' /// "The lack of money is the root of all evil." (\/Yyyy/' __ /// /Yyyy/' \\\ /// Ayn Rand //\\ LadyHawke \\/// ________________________________________________ ///\\\
gilmore@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Neil Gilmore) (02/28/90)
In article <27317@cup.portal.com>, Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes... >Don't kid yourself. There are MANY talented artists able to use the Amiga >superbly. I know more than a few. (all kinds of stuff deleted) >Animation is worse. It takes me an average of a month to do a 10 or 15-minute >animation. Here we have not only the time it takes to do the graphics, but all >the scripting, storyline, debugging, animating, etc. I think it was Amiga >World that recently had an animation competition. I seem to recall those which >were accepted would receive $50 as compensation. No we're looking at 25 cents >an hour or less. (more stuff deleted) Last night, our local group screened the AmigaWorld animation tape. Only about a quarter of the animations were worth the $50 compensations that were paid. I have seen enough color-cycled Mandelbrots and checkerboard background planes to last me a lifetime. However, some of the animations were truly gorgeous (the gopher comes to mind, but there were others). The range of styles was incredible, everything from pencil-type animations to fully rendered stuff. I would have preferred to see more than just the sketches that were done, but the limitations of most of the animators (meaning that the bits were probably all done in memory, without the benefit of single stepping hardware), I could live with this, especially as some were clearly labeled as demo reels. I disliked the number of repeating animations, as I personally find them boring. This part of the meeting was the most interesting (as most of the rest of it was taken up by a demonstrations of The Director(?), by a local artist who seems to be obsessed with the idea that an animated black cat tail can be a keyed window onto other video. Pretty dull.) > Julie Petersen (LadyHawke@cup.portal.com) )\_ _/ > portal!cup.portal.com!LadyHawke `/)\_ __ // +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Kitakaze Tatsu Raito Neil Gilmore internet:gilmore@macc.wisc.edu | | Jararvellir, MACC, UW-Madison bitnet: gilmore@wiscmac3 | | Middle Kingdom Madison, Wi | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
baer@qiclab.UUCP (Ken Baer) (03/02/90)
In article <3255@dogie.macc.wisc.edu> gilmore@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Neil Gilmore) writes: |In article <27317@cup.portal.com|, Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes... ||Animation is worse. It takes me an average of a month to do a 10 or 15-minute ||animation. Here we have not only the time it takes to do the graphics, but all ||the scripting, storyline, debugging, animating, etc. A month to do a 10 - 15 Minute animation?!? I assume you mean seconds. If not, my hat's off to you. Our first film (QWERTY Dancing) took about 7 months for 2 minutes of animation. Of course, that was a part time endevour, but still... But, we did have several layers of animation going on at once, and it was single frame recorded at 15 fps. |Last night, our local group screened the AmigaWorld animation tape. Great tape! I wish I'd known they were making it, I would have submitted QWERTY. |I would have preferred to see more |than just the sketches that were done, but the limitations of most of |the animators (meaning that the bits were probably all done in memory, |without the benefit of single stepping hardware), I could live with |this, especially as some were clearly labeled as demo reels. I disliked |the number of repeating animations, as I personally find them boring. Lets face facts here, animation is HARD! It takes a special breed of artist to make a complete animated piece that has a story, characters, a soundtrack, etc. And, it often requires a team of artists, organized by a director (a job that's no sinch, I can tell you!). It also takes people with the patience to see a project to the very end. I think that there are probably many people out there who started films, but never finished them. BTW, I think many of the films in the AW tape were single frame recorded, particularly the ray traced ones. I wasn't suprised by the preponderance of looping anims, and I thought some of them were really amazing. But, I also prefer animations with real stories and characters. Lou Wallace (who put together the AW Tape) said that they may do another tape with mainly longer story pieces. I hope they give us enough time to finish our current film. :-) |This part of the meeting was the most interes>| Kitakaze Tatsu Raito Neil Gilmore internet:gilmore@macc.wisc.edu | || Jararvellir, MACC, UW-Madison bitnet: gilmore@wiscmac3 | || Middle Kingdom Madison, Wi | |+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- // -Ken Baer. Programmer/Animator, Hash Enterprises. \X/ Usenet: baer@qiclab.UUCP or PLink: KEN BAER "I want to be an ..... ARCH VILLIAN!!!" -- Petey Pate.
gilmore@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Neil Gilmore) (03/04/90)
(I deleted quite a bit from the original, I hope you all can follow this) In article <4223@qiclab.UUCP>, baer@qiclab.UUCP (Ken Baer) writes... >In article <3255@dogie.macc.wisc.edu> gilmore@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Neil Gilmore) writes: >|In article <27317@cup.portal.com|, Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes... >||Animation is worse. It takes me an average of a month to do a 10 or 15-minute >||animation. Here we have not only the time it takes to do the graphics, but all >||the scripting, storyline, debugging, animating, etc. > >A month to do a 10 - 15 Minute animation?!? I assume you mean seconds. If >not, my hat's off to you. Our first film (QWERTY Dancing) took about For m her recent postings, I assumed that she has spent the time to really learn the tools that she uses, so that the process of making an animation doesn't depend on dealing with the tools, but concentrates on the artistic aspects. This would naturally cut down on the time needed. >Lets face facts here, animation is HARD! It takes a special breed of >artist to make a complete animated piece that has a story, characters, >a soundtrack, etc. And, it often requires a team of artists, organized You're telling me? My first animations were done on blank 35mm film, with pens and a magnifying glass. I haven't done any Amiga stuff yet, though, because I haven't had the time to assess which tools would be approipriate for my needs... >really amazing. But, I also prefer animations with real stories and >characters. Lou Wallace (who put together the AW Tape) said that they >may do another tape with mainly longer story pieces. I hope they give >us enough time to finish our current film. :-) I do think that the tape shows quite well the video capabilities of the Amiga. Even though I enjoyed less than half of the tape, I don't think that the other half was useless, just that it showed styles and such I didn't particularly care for. I am eagerly awaiting the next tape. (I'll probably get the first one as well). >-- > // -Ken Baer. Programmer/Animator, Hash Enterprises. > \X/ Usenet: baer@qiclab.UUCP or PLink: KEN BAER > "I want to be an ..... ARCH VILLIAN!!!" -- Petey Pate. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Kitakaze Tatsu Raito Neil Gilmore internet:gilmore@macc.wisc.edu | | Jararvellir, MACC, UW-Madison bitnet: gilmore@wiscmac3 | | Middle Kingdom Madison, Wi | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com (03/04/90)
In article <3255@dogie.macc.wisc.edu> gilmore@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Neil Gilmore) writes: |In article <27317@cup.portal.com|, Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes... ||Animation is worse. It takes me an average of a month to do a 10 or 15-minute ||animation. Here we have not only the time it takes to do the graphics, but all ||the scripting, storyline, debugging, animating, etc. > A month to do a 10 - 15 Minute animation?!? I assume you mean seconds. If > not, my hat's off to you. Our first film (QWERTY Dancing) took about > 7 months for 2 minutes of animation. Of course, that was a part time > endevour, but still... But, we did have several layers of animation going > on at once, and it was single frame recorded at 15 fps. Actually, I did mean minutes, not seconds. But, I'm beginning to realize my situation is not typical. When I was doing CAD regularly, I finished an average of 12 - 20 drawings a day; my 4 coworkers, doing almost the same tasks, averaged 4 - 5. When I said 'almost' the same tasks, I meant mine were a little harder--they always passed the 3-d ones off to me, since I had figured out the 3-d commands. It's partly because I seem to draw fast, but partly also because I automated tasks with LISP routines which I would write on my lunch break (since I was 'just an artist', the company wouldn't spring the funds to free up my time to do any programming, sigh. And I was fool enough to give them the LISP routines free, since I felt sorry for my coworkers). > Lets face facts here, animation is HARD! It takes a special breed of > artist to make a complete animated piece that has a story, characters, > a soundtrack, etc. And, it often requires a team of artists, organized > by a director (a job that's no sinch, I can tell you!). It also takes > people with the patience to see a project to the very end. I think that > there are probably many people out there who started films, but never Yes, you are COMPLETELY right. (When I said a month to do 10 - 15 minutes, I was working on it almost full-time. But here's the reason I accomplished it in that amount of time--I did the music, storyline, scripting, graphics and animation all myself. I have done similar tasks on a number of LARGE projects in committee. The costs ran into hundreds of thousands of dollars. And 10 - 15 minutes in those circumstances took closer to 4 months. It's the COMMUNICATION that eats up the hours, and also, people seem to work out the ideas as they go, so there are always MASSIVE changes, and I'm more comfortable working ideas to completion in my head before I even touch the computer, canvas or piece of paper.) That's not to say I don't appreciate group projects. I have the greatest respect for specialists in their respective fields. It just saddens me when I see quality diluted to satisfy the lowest common denominator, and all too often that happens. So, based on experience, for those who are interested in getting into the field, it looks like a good rule of thumb for an average-complexity computer animation in a group situation is to expect it to take about a month per 30 seconds of animation. I'm gleaning this figure from educational videos, interactive videodisc and commercial projects I've been personally involved in. That also assumes YOU ALREADY KNOW YOUR TOOLS, that is, you know the software, the hardware and it's all reasonably reliable. The learning curve is steep. \_ Julie Petersen (LadyHawke@cup.portal.com) )\_ _/ portal!cup.portal.com!LadyHawke `/)\_ __ // __ _____________________________________________ `\\)\_ / '~// /// `\\//\\/|'//' /// Disclaimer: My views don't necessarily match (\/Yyyy/' __ /// those of my employer. I'm self-employed. /Yyyy/' \\\ /// //\\ LadyHawke \\/// ______________________________________________ ///\\\