rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Rich Carreiro) (03/17/90)
[Warning, severe flames and strong language ahead] Well, Lattice has just lost at least one customer. I just got my 5.05 patch in the mail today. And guess what - it doesn't work. So, I call Lattice Technical Support, er..., Technical Stupidity. Which of course costs ME money, not $*&@(%$ Lattice. I tell the phone geek that the 5.05 patches complain about not having the right version to patch. Suprise, surprise - he actually knew that a wrong 5.04 was shipped out. But wait, there's more. His solution - "Wait a couple of weeks - we are preparing a new 5.05 to take care of the bad 5.04 disks." Gee, gotta love it. Those $#it-heads at Lettuce have my goddamned serial number and can check it. After all, Technical Stupidity wouldn't have listened to my call if they hadn't had my name, serial no, and phone. What Lettuce should be doing, ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY CLAIM THAT ONLY A *SMALL* number of the 5.04 disks were bad, is send out a set of 5.05 MASTERS. Not the manuals, just the masters. Hell, they must have them, after all - what are they selling? But no, doing that would qualify as Real Customer Support, and we all know that Lettuce can't have that. It gets better. I ask the Technical Stupidity person about the prototype conflict between stdlib.h and string.h concerning the mem***() functions. At first he claims that there is no such problem. I tell him he doesn't know what he is talking about, and that there damn well IS a problem. He checks and says "Oh. Yeah there is a problem, but we only have it classified as severity level 3." That is SECOND FROM THE BOTTOM! SMART MOVE LETTUCE!! So, whenever ANYONE tries to compile something with both stdlib.h and string.h, (and I can't imagine ANYONE wanting to do that, can you?) the damn compile will FAIL. But apparently that doesn't bother Lettuce. And what makes it better is that I have gotten mail from people on the net whose 5.04 patch FIXED this problem. So good old Lettuce doesn't even know what is going on. Surprise, surprise. Ah, before I forget - my 5.04 patch BROKE LMK. That's right. LMK 1.05 (the 5.02 version) works, but LMK 1.07 (the 5.04 version) doesn't. 1.07 reads in the lmkfile (verified by using the -d option) and stops. No error messages, just stops. And here's the kicker - IF I run 1.05, THEN 1.07 will work fine. However, as soon as I edit the lmkfile OR simply "more" (using the Workbench 1.3.2 More) it, LMK 1.07 NO LONGER WORKS. And again, despite complaints I've heard from people on the net, Lettuce claims that there is no known problem with LMK. Ah - such brilliance has to be experienced to be believed. So, I am going to get every free upgrade coming to me and will then NEVER buy another product from Lettuce again. And to you SAS guys out here, how about telling Technical Stupidity to get their #&^$@ heads on straight and at least be MARGINALLY familiar with the product? Is that such an unreasonable thing to ask? And how about adding some phone lines so it takes less than 20 tries to get through? And a toll-free number like legitimate companies have. It kills me to spend $$$ on a phone call because Lettuce managed to f**k up a damn BUG FIX. Is there a Quality Assurance department at Lettuce? Does it actually do anything? Judging from the bugs that have made it through, and we're talking blatant, non-obscure bugs here people, I really have to wonder. [flame off - I warned you it was going to be severe] -- Hollywood's Animato Lives! ==> Mike Jittlov <== ARPA: rlcarr@space.mit.edu is UUCP: ...!mit-eddie!space.mit.edu!rlcarr ** The Wizard of ** BITNET: rlcarr@space.mit.edu *** Speed and Time ***
jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org (John Meissen) (03/17/90)
>[Warning, severe flames and strong language ahead] I've known some primadonnas in my time, but you, sir, are one of the worst. >................. I tell the phone geek that the 5.05 patches >complain about not having the right version to patch. Suprise, >surprise - he actually knew that a wrong 5.04 was shipped out. So somebody else reported it before you did, and you don't get the gold star for being the first. So sorry! >......... His solution - "Wait a couple of weeks - we are >preparing a new 5.05 to take care of the bad 5.04 disks." You would rather they didn't change it? Or perhaps you would prefer they wait until the next release? C'mon, guy, the worst that comes out of this is that you don't use the patches until you get the new fixes (assuming you were intelligent enough to follow the directions and use a copy of your originals, which may be assuming a lot in your case). >................... After all, Technical Stupidity wouldn't have >listened to my call if they hadn't had my name, serial no, and phone. Whoever told you THAT? Lattice built a reputation on having tech support that was accessible. Did they tell you they wouldn't talk to you, or are you making this up, too? >What Lettuce should be doing, ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY CLAIM THAT ONLY A >*SMALL* number of the 5.04 disks were bad, is send out a set of >5.05 MASTERS. Not the manuals, just the masters. Hell, they must >have them, after all - what are they selling? Sheesh! What a bone-head! First of all, if they don't have a fix yet they probably aren't shipping anything. They'll probably hold shipment until they get it working. Also, terms are relative. To someone like you, who is probably not capable of producing anything you could palm off on more than 10 or 20 people, a *SMALL* number is around 5 or 6. However, when you ship 800 - 1,000 compilers a month, a small number could be, say, 500. The product consists of 5 disks. Your "solution" would mean shipping 2,500 disks, at around a buck or more a disk. >............ So, whenever ANYONE tries to compile something with >both stdlib.h and string.h, (and I can't imagine ANYONE wanting to do that, >can you?) the damn compile will FAIL. Tell me, can you say,"text editor?" Apparently you don't know what that is, because you haven't figured out how to use one to fix your header files. I agree they should fix it, but in the meantime having a couple of lines wrong in a text file shouldn't stop you from doing things. Unless, of course, you're just used to having other people do everything for you. >And what makes it better is that I have gotten mail from people >on the net whose 5.04 patch FIXED this problem. So good old Lettuce >doesn't even know what is going on. Surprise, surprise. But you just said earlier that they knew a *SMALL* number of 5.04 disks were bad. Oh, me, oh, my! You can't even keep your story straight. Obviously some people would have their problems fixed if a *LARGE* number of disks went out correct. >Ah, before I forget - my 5.04 patch BROKE LMK. That's right. LMK 1.05 >(the 5.02 version) works, but LMK 1.07 (the 5.04 version) doesn't. Aaaaww! Gee whiz. Nobody is forcing you to use V1.07. >...Lettuce claims that there is no known problem with LMK. I think you are mis-quoting. The missing phrase here is "no REPRODUCABLE problem." You can't fix it if you can't make it fail. >So, I am going to get every free upgrade coming to me and will then NEVER >buy another product from Lettuce again. So you would rather pay for every bug fix, like some companies force you to do. Then you would be happy and buy more products, right? >.................... And how about adding some phone lines so it >takes less than 20 tries to get through? And a toll-free number like >legitimate companies have. It kills me to spend $$$ on a phone call It takes more than just phone lines, it takes people to staff them. Of course, they could do these things if they charged support and maintenance fees like a large number of professional software houses. If you bought Xenix from SCO, you would have to pay hourly for all telephone support calls (unless you subscribed to their support plan for a monthly fee). Maybe I should suggest this to Lattice. To be honest, I'm absolutey astonished by how much and how loudly someone can complain about something that was free. Lattice provides you with FREE support, a FREE update, and all you can do is bitch over the net about how you had some problems. Mister, we all have problems. This is the real world, and nothing is perfect. Maybe you'd better pull your head back into that womb you never left until you learn how to live with life's little disappointments, because there's no way you're prepared for the real ones. "These are my own opinions because I thought of them, they're all mine, and they don't belong to anyone else." | Internet: jmeissen@oacis.org john- | BIX: jmeissen
bryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer @ Wit's End) (03/17/90)
In article <424@oregon.oacis.org> jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org (John Meissen) writes:
=-
=-
=- >[Warning, severe flames and strong language ahead]
=-
=-I've known some primadonnas in my time, but you, sir, are one of the
=-worst.
=-
No no no no. You don't do this counterflaming stuff right at all.
When a moron like this puts his leg that far down his throat, you're supposed
to point out that the reason he's in such a bad mood is that he's just stomped
his testicles from the inside. :-)
=- >*SMALL* number of the 5.04 disks were bad, is send out a set of
=- >5.05 MASTERS. Not the manuals, just the masters. Hell, they must
=- >have them, after all - what are they selling?
=-
=-Sheesh! What a bone-head! First of all, if they don't have a fix yet
=-they probably aren't shipping anything. They'll probably hold shipment
Actually, all the bonehead (no hyphen, look it up) had to do was ask
nicely. I had one of the bad 5.04 patches, and Lattice promptly shipped me the
whole 5.05 disk set after I called them and explained the problem. I know they
did the same for at least one other person.rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Animato) (03/18/90)
In article <424@oregon.oacis.org> jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org (John Meissen) writes: =- =- =- >[Warning, severe flames and strong language ahead] =- =-I've known some primadonnas in my time, but you, sir, are one of the =-worst. =- =- >*SMALL* number of the 5.04 disks were bad, is send out a set of =- >5.05 MASTERS. Not the manuals, just the masters. Hell, they must =- >have them, after all - what are they selling? =- =-Sheesh! What a bone-head! First of all, if they don't have a fix yet =-they probably aren't shipping anything. They'll probably hold shipment Wake up, Meissen. Is anyone home? Of COURSE Lettuce has fixes, after all, most people are having no problems with 5.05, because most people got good 5.04 patches. The problem is with the bad 5.04 patches. Like I said, what do you think Lattice is shipping? [note: this next part was written by Bryan Beyerdorffer] > Actually, all the bonehead (no hyphen, look it up) had to do was ask >nicely. I had one of the bad 5.04 patches, and Lattice promptly shipped me the >whole 5.05 disk set after I called them and explained the problem. I know they >did the same for at least one other person. Two things: 1) See Mr. Meissen - Lettuce DOES have fixed copies - plenty of them. It's what you get if you were to go and buy Lettuce C right now. 2) Actually, Mr. Beyerdorffer, I did ask nicely for a set of 5.05 masters, since I know of 5 (6 including you) who have had problems and have just had Lettuce ship them the 5.05 masters. However, the person in Technical Stupidity that I talked to told me that doing so is out of the question and that my only option is to wait 2+ weeks until a fix is out. I then asked him if I could be sent a copy of the GOOD 5.04 patch. He told me no - that I was stuck with the bad 5.04 patch and therefore a useless 5.05 patch for at least 2 weeks. Now, please tell me - who is the bonehead? If the Lettuce Technical Stupidity department and Customer Screwovers are clueless as to what is going on, then they deserve whatever flames I care to send their way. -- Hollywood's Animato Lives! ==> Mike Jittlov <== ARPA: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu is UUCP: ...!mit-eddie!mit-athena!rlcarr ** The Wizard of ** BITNET: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu *** Speed and Time ***
fgd3@jc3b21.UUCP (Fabbian G. Dufoe) (03/18/90)
From article <1990Mar16.211641.6821@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, by rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Rich Carreiro): > What Lettuce should be doing, ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY CLAIM THAT ONLY A > *SMALL* number of the 5.04 disks were bad, is send out a set of > 5.05 MASTERS. Not the manuals, just the masters. Hell, they must > have them, after all - what are they selling? That's apparently what they did in my case. I haven't had time to really check it out, so I don't know if they fixed all the problems I had with 5.04 (but the README file said they did). It's true that Lattice customer support is not as good as it was two years ago. They just don't seem as responsive. However, two years ago they didn't have as good a product. Version 5 was a big improvement over version 4 and I'm impressed that Lattice is still trying to get upgrades out to their customers. When I got the patch to 5.04 from Lattice I quickly noticed the -pr option was broken. I wrote Lattice about it and got a response promising to ship me a fix as soon as it was available. It took over two months for it to arrive, but they did send it. Even given your complaints, Lattice customer support is superior to Manx, according to the articles I've read here. Try a bit more patience. Maybe Lattice will get their act together and again provide the outstanding support their customers got used to a couple of years ago. --Fabbian Dufoe 350 Ling-A-Mor Terrace South St. Petersburg, Florida 33705 813-823-2350 UUCP: ...uunet!pdn!jc3b21!fgd3
mapjilg@bath.ac.uk (J I L Gold) (03/19/90)
> Deleted lines of frantic flaming......
Count yourselves lucky guys. I haven't even obtained v5.04 yet,and I
cretainly can't afford the phone bill from the UK. If anyone from
Lattice/Lettuce is reading this, note my name and, if you could,
send me an upgrade so that I have something to whinge about too.
--
# J.Gold | mapjilg@uk.ac.bath.gdr #
# University of Bath , UK | jilg@uk.ac.bath.maths #jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org (John Meissen) (03/20/90)
>2) Actually, Mr. Beyerdorffer, I did ask nicely for a set of 5.05 masters, > since I know of 5 (6 including you) who have had problems and have just > had Lettuce ship them the 5.05 masters. However, the person in > Technical Stupidity that I talked to told me that doing so is out of the > question and that my only option is to wait 2+ weeks until a fix is out. > I then asked him if I could be sent a copy of the GOOD 5.04 patch. > He told me no - that I was stuck with the bad 5.04 patch and therefore > a useless 5.05 patch for at least 2 weeks. > Now, please tell me - who is the bonehead? Given your attitude, I probably would have been tempted to tell you the same thing. Obviously someone with your lack of maturity has never learned that you accomplish much more with cooperation than confrontation. My statement stands unchanged. You, sir, are a bonehead. > If the Lettuce Technical Stupidity department and Customer Screwovers > are clueless as to what is going on, then they deserve whatever flames > I care to send their way. My closing point remains the same. You have no right to flame about something you got for free. Lattice is giving you free support and free updates. You didn't pay for any of it. Obviously you don't appreciate it, either. The people at Lattice bend over backwards to support their users. Carlotta has three or four people at most to help her deal with 70,000 - 100,000* users of several incarnations of the MS-DOS C compiler, the Amiga C compiler, a half- dozen or more cross compilers running on everything from VAX to Sun, an RPG compiler, word-processing and database software, and miscellaneous utilities and specialized libraries. She has to coordinate releases, updates, fixes, production, and track problem reports and enhancement requests for all of them, dealing with internal tech staff, tech people at SAS, and outside developers. Lattice tech support runs a 24hr BBS with at least 4 incoming lines, and is accessible on BIX and other nationwide networks. And they monitor and respond to these on a DAILY basis. In addition to all that they're usually available most of the day for free telephone access. Frankly I'm not surprised that things sometimes get screwed up. As I said before, this is a fact of life that most of us have learned to live with. However, given the cost of this service to the user I think Lattice is doing a commendable job. Obviously you have never been in a position of having to deal with markets, users, and product issues. But let me tell you this, if someone does you a favor, you don't poke them in the eye. I would kindly suggest that you pull your head out of your ass, and that you do it soon. john- * figures approximate, since I haven't worked there for over a year.
jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org (John Meissen) (03/20/90)
Actually, if you want to you can e-mail me your compiler's serial number and a shipping address, and Carlotta say's she will make sure you are brought up to date. Also, please verify your current version by invoking LC1 directly. Alternatively, you can contact Roundhill Computer Systems, Ltd in the U.K. They are a Lattice distributor and should be able to help you, although Carlotta doesn't think they have the 5.05 patches yet. They can be reached at 44-672-84-535 voice 44-672-84-525 fax strip off appropriate country-code stuff, as this is the number from the US. jmeissen@oacis.org
justus@robin.hut.fi (Juhana R{s{nen) (03/21/90)
In article <1990Mar19.110751.10381@bath.ac.uk> mapjilg@bath.ac.uk (J I L Gold) writes: >Count yourselves lucky guys. I haven't even obtained v5.04 yet Say, that's strange. My 5.04 arrived in Finland in December... By the way, does anybody know if Lattice will ship the 5.05 automatically to Europe, too? ># J.Gold | mapjilg@uk.ac.bath.gdr # ># University of Bath , UK | jilg@uk.ac.bath.maths # Juhana R{s{nen / justus@niksula.hut.fi