gt4662b@prism.gatech.EDU (BRANHAM,JOSEPH FRANKLIN) (04/04/90)
Last night's Amiga Atlanta user group meeting had a VERY special guest. New-Tek. They are currently here for some broadcaster's convention, and are pretty much the hit of the exposition. In any case, here are a few comments on the Toaster. 1) It is undergoing FCC approval. It should be ready to ship in about two months. 2) It requires a timecode-base VCR or camera. ( I think that is the right word) 3) It includes a character generator, frame buffer, and REALLY impressive digital effects capabilities. 384 effects are included, and they intend to provide an editor so you can roll your own. 4) There are four video inputs and two outputs. The Amiga screen will be used entirely for the control panel. Also note that the New-tek people had to write their own operating system, so the Toaster will NEVER EVER be done for the Mac or PC. (They were very insistant on this point.) 5) The author of Videoscape 3d is writing a ray-tracer called Lightwaves which will be able to generate 24-bit files for the Toaster. They also hinted that raw24 bit files would be usable as frames. Most of this information comes from a 20 minute tape featuring Penn and Teller which was shown at the meeting. My favorite effect was to be able to freeze part of the screen, and change things, then fade into the new version. With this wondrous toy, you can create EVERY effect that you have seen in an MTV video. If there are anymore questions, I'll try to answer, but I'm afraid that I don't have any real tech info on this. Oh yeah, the cost is $1600 and it will require a 2000 or 2500 with about 3 Meg. -- <------------------------------------------------------------------------------> < FRANK BRANHAM | "I exist; therefore I am." > < Georgia Institute of Technology | -The Patchwork Quilt > < Internet: gt4662b@prism.gatech.edu | by August Derleth >
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (04/09/90)
>2) It requires a timecode-base VCR or camera. ( I think that is the right word) > Forgive my ignorance, but what is a timecode-base VCR? Does it need a Genlock input? With all that the Toaster reportedly includes, I would be surprised if they didn't include an infinite window time base corrector. (Isn't that what a frame buffer does, and doesn't the Toaster have TWO of them?) Anyway, I've never heard of a VHS recorder that has Genlock inputs. On input they generally just synch up to the signal source (so that no buffering is required.) On output they generally just output a time base synthesized from the recorded information, synchronized to the playback speed (which can vary somewhat from the standard). Does this mean that the Toaster can't frame buffer ANY video tape inputs from VHS? Please feel free to correct any blatant misunderstandings in the above. >3) It includes a character generator, frame buffer, and REALLY impressive >digital effects capabilities. 384 effects are included, and they intend to >provide an editor so you can roll your own. > The number has varied somewhat, (256 effects was the last that I'd heard), but what do they consider separate effects? Is a wipe left different from a wipe right? Or is direction just a parameter of the generic wipe effect? Is a fast wipe a different effect than a slow wipe? I'd really like to know how they classify "384" separate effects. >4) There are four video inputs and two outputs. The Amiga screen will be used >entirely for the control panel. Also note that the New-tek people had to write >their own operating system, so the Toaster will NEVER EVER be done for the Mac >or PC. (They were very insistant on this point.) I don't understand why it would be bad to have this technology available on the Mac, or the PC. I certainly don't understand why that desire necessitates a new operating system. I haven't heard anyone chomping at the bit to get AmigaDOS ported to any other domain, and considering the hardware that would have to be added to other machines to support it (not the DOS so much as the programs that run under it) I don't think it ever will be ported. (Paint me blue and throw me into the ocean if I'm wrong.) I *WILL* be unhappy if the NEWTEKDOS in any way limits my ability to use AmigaDOS at the same time, or to multitask, or read standard format floppies, or FFS harddrives, or use any hardware I might have connected to my machine (VoRecOne, Modem, Bridgeboard, who knows what else...). > >have any real tech info on this. Oh yeah, the cost is $1600 and it will require >a 2000 or 2500 with about 3 Meg. > How much is the paint program, what is the resolution of the output, does it handle overscan, does it handle sliding windows (ie: could intuition be ported to this hardware) How is the memory interface with the CPU achieved? Can the card DMA memory from the Amiga bus? What is the depth of each pixel? IF the depth is less than 24 bits then how many color registers are there, and how many registers are there per selectable set? How much memory is on the board? How much memory can it be expanded to? How many still buffers can the original card support? Is there any support for 'thin ' displays (ones with fewer bit planes; e.g: 8) The latter would help considerably when trying to improve the frame transfer rate. Is the toaster capable of outputting RGB signals? Will it support higher scan rates than NTSC? Does it have split luminance and chroma outputs? If anyone can help with the answers, I'd love to know. At first glance the BlackBelt kludge sounds like a better deal for what *I* want to do. According to the specs, the maximum frame transfer rate to the Toaster is 1/5 second. Assuming that their values are optimistic even with an efficient CPU, that makes for a really lousy animation. Also from their literature, I have difficulty understanding exactly what the Toaster *is*. At least with the BB I'd know what I'm getting, how to program it, and how to take full advantage of its capabilities. I sincerely hope that they release technical documentation on every aspect of the device soon after it is publically sold. We don't need another TI99/4a in which only the manufacturer is allowed to sell software for the device. -Sullivan Segall _________________________________________________________________ /V\ Sullivan was the first to learn how to jump without moving. ' Is it not proper that the student should surpass the teacher? To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _________________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com
sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu (Michael C. Sheasby) (04/09/90)
>If anyone can help with the answers, I'd love to know. At first glance the >BlackBelt kludge sounds like a better deal for what *I* want to do. According >to the specs, the maximum frame transfer rate to the Toaster is 1/5 second. >Assuming that their values are optimistic even with an efficient CPU, that >makes for a really lousy animation. Also from their literature, I have >difficulty understanding exactly what the Toaster *is*. At least with the >BB I'd know what I'm getting, how to program it, and how to take full >advantage of its capabilities. what the hey is a BlackBelt? I thought I was up on all the latest toys. If this is a stupid question, then put me out of my misery and tell me, don't just say 'pfaugh' and skip to another article. (please) --Mike sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu
gt4662b@prism.gatech.EDU (BRANHAM,JOSEPH FRANKLIN) (04/09/90)
In article <28725@cup.portal.com>, Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) writes: > >2) It requires a timecode-base VCR or camera. ( I think that is the right word) > > > > Forgive my ignorance, but what is a timecode-base VCR? Does it need a Genlock > input? With all that the Toaster reportedly includes, I would be surprised > if they didn't include an infinite window time base corrector. (Isn't that > what a frame buffer does, and doesn't the Toaster have TWO of them?) Anyway, > I've never heard of a VHS recorder that has Genlock inputs. On input they > generally just synch up to the signal source (so that no buffering is required.) The NewTek chap who was there told us that the Toaster DID require a Genlock input VCR or camera, and that there were a few Japanese companies which were releasing some VCR's in the $1000 range. > The number has varied somewhat, (256 effects was the last that I'd heard), > but what do they consider separate effects? Is a wipe left different from > a wipe right? Or is direction just a parameter of the generic wipe effect? > Is a fast wipe a different effect than a slow wipe? I'd really like to know > how they classify "384" separate effects. > Given tendancies in advertising, I'd guess that direction and speed are different parameters of effects. The effects I did see demonstrated (now note my ignorence in this field) included being able to leave 'trails' behind a moving image, changing the colors of all or parts of the image, assorted wipes, fades, and dissolves, and superimposing parts of two or more inputs with different effects on each. > > have to be added to other machines to support it (not the DOS so much as the > programs that run under it) I don't think it ever will be ported. (Paint me > blue and throw me into the ocean if I'm wrong.) I *WILL* be unhappy if the > NEWTEKDOS in any way limits my ability to use AmigaDOS at the same time, or > to multitask, or read standard format floppies, or FFS harddrives, or use any > hardware I might have connected to my machine (VoRecOne, Modem, Bridgeboard, > who knows what else...). > The idea I got from the presentation is that, while you are using the Toaster, you WILL NOT be able to multitask, or do much else than run the effects software. One thing which was not made clear is whether or not the Toaster will 'do' its 24 bit output while in AmigaDos and not have to save frames and animations to a file, then boot into Toaster mode to show them. If they don't, the Toaster may die a slow death. Another reason for the Toaster only working on an Amiga is that it spits out NTSC-compatible video. No higher scan rates or anything. The idea seems to have been to push this to broadcasters as well as people who need to use the video effects and character generators. As a method of improving your graphics output, it might be very annoying to work with. Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with New-Tek and guess that I just placed myself in a wonderful seat in this discussion. -- <------------------------------------------------------------------------------> < FRANK BRANHAM | "I exist; therefore I am." > < Georgia Institute of Technology | -The Patchwork Quilt > < Internet: gt4662b@prism.gatech.edu | by August Derleth >
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (04/10/90)
>>If anyone can help with the answers, I'd love to know. At first glance the >>BlackBelt kludge sounds like a better deal for what *I* want to do. According >>to the specs, the maximum frame transfer rate to the Toaster is 1/5 second. >>Assuming that their values are optimistic even with an efficient CPU, that >>makes for a really lousy animation. Also from their literature, I have >>difficulty understanding exactly what the Toaster *is*. At least with the >>BB I'd know what I'm getting, how to program it, and how to take full >>advantage of its capabilities. > > >what the hey is a BlackBelt? I thought I was up on all the latest toys. > >If this is a stupid question, then put me out of my misery and tell me, >don't just say 'pfaugh' and skip to another article. (please) > > The BlackBelt kludge is more vaporware. Like the Toaster it has been shown to developers, but hasn't yet been released. IMHO it is a really sweet bit of engineering. The basic idea is this: Take a hi-res 4 bitplane screen and convert it into a lo-res 8 bitplane screen. That gets you 256 colors, and their palette is 16million (ie 24bits). Well at this point the hardware was still relatively boring, so BB decided to make it function in a very HAM-like way. There are two modes. In the first all of the color registers are accessed directly. The actual pallette is bank swapped for ~16 banks of 240 colors each. That way within two pixels you can exactly identify 16x240 different colors (24 bits deep). In the second mode you modify either the Red, Green or Blue component of the current value, using seven bit offsets, so that you can access 128 registers directly, or modify 7 of the eight bits of Red, Green or Blue. This mode is essentially 21bit color, although the actual registers still use 8 bits each (ie 24bits of color). The first two scan lines are used for a recognition pattern for the BlackBox, and to preload the registers. (Registers can also be reused through the scan if you are willing to dump several pixels at it.) The blackbox resets whenever it detects a reset command, or when it sees a full line of color Zero. This means that sliding windows will still work correctly. Problems are: Pull down windows obscure the top two lines which drops the Black Box out of its own mode, so any time you select a menu, the picture will become garbage. (The menus will look right though. Another problem is that the bitplanes are now interleaved as well as separate. Animation should be possible at the same frame rate as 640xANYx16 is now. -Sullivan Segall _________________________________________________________________ /V\ Sullivan was the first to learn how to jump without moving. ' Is it not proper that the student should surpass the teacher? To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _________________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com
jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) (04/11/90)
In article <28725@cup.portal.com> Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) writes: >Forgive my ignorance, but what is a timecode-base VCR? Does it need a Genlock >input? With all that the Toaster reportedly includes, I would be surprised >if they didn't include an infinite window time base corrector. (Isn't that >what a frame buffer does, and doesn't the Toaster have TWO of them?) Anyway, >I've never heard of a VHS recorder that has Genlock inputs. On input they >generally just synch up to the signal source (so that no buffering is required.) >On output they generally just output a time base synthesized from the recorded >information, synchronized to the playback speed (which can vary somewhat from >the standard). Does this mean that the Toaster can't frame buffer ANY video >tape inputs from VHS? >Please feel free to correct any blatant misunderstandings in the above. Your assumptions are reasonable for a devices with a single video input. You can't expect the Toaster to sync up to four independent nonsynchronized sources at the same time for that price, now can you? One of the postings said: Reference video: Composite color or blackburst on video input #1 I read that to mean that the toaster will sync up to the signal on input #1, but the remaining 3 signals have to also be synced up to the signal on input #1. So hooking up a VCR should work, as long as it is the only input. There is also an implication that the frame buffers take a lot longer that 1/30 of a second to be updated; therefore they cannot be used as for a time base correction. -- Joe Smith (408)922-6220 | SMTP: jms@tardis.tymnet.com or jms@gemini.tymnet.com BT Tymnet Tech Services | UUCP: ...!{ames,pyramid}!oliveb!tymix!tardis!jms PO Box 49019, MS-C41 | BIX: smithjoe | 12 PDP-10s still running! "POPJ P," San Jose, CA 95161-9019 | humorous dislaimer: "My Amiga speaks for me."