BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE.EDU@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) (04/11/90)
The Commodore upper management people do seem to finally have their
acts together. Commodore now has an absolutely top-notch crack R&D
team, especially in software development. Hardware development could
be better, though, but is suffering from the two years whem under
Max Toy, R&D funds for Amiga projects were cut back somewhat in favor
of R&D on PC clone hardware.
However, no matter how good the upper management people are, they
can't do much unless the top management people permit it. I am
speaking of Mr. Guould and Mr. Ali. In the past, Mr. Guould has
often gotten in the way of technological innovations (being in his
eighties, he can't have the young, innovative spirit that young
people have), but he doesn't seem to be getting in the way directly
now. However, Mr. Guould and Mr. Ali still aren't doing much good
by sucking away millions of dollars for their own personal uses.
This is corruption in action, and it must stop.
Commodore has recently laid off a number of technical support
people in Canada. For the $2 Million that Mr. Ali grabbed for
himself, those TEN people who were laid off could be kept on for
another year. Cutting back on tech support will only turn sales
into a downward spiral -- Ask Atari about that!
I don't know how many people will receive this, as a lot of
people have called my postings "crap" and have put me on thir
(oops) their kill files. Fine, I don't really care if they
receive my messages on not. It is entirely up to them whether
they want to read what I have to say, and if they don't read
it then the world will not come to and end.
-MB-karl@sugar.hackercorp.com (Karl Lehenbauer) (04/11/90)
In article <16463@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE.EDU@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >I am >speaking of Mr. Guould and Mr. Ali. This is the second Marc Barrett posting in one day bashing Gould and Ali, the first being the entirely offensive "I wish Irving Gould would die" posting. Marc, not only are your postings needlessly inflammatory and mostly free of any kind of constructive remarks, but you also post the same thing over and over. Are you going to start a new round of postings, this time consisting of personal attacks on Commodore management? Oh, sorry, you already have. Once again, we see how much trouble one caustic individual can cause when they are not affected one whit by the censure of their net-peers. I do not think email to the administrators of Marc's site is unwarranted at this point, 'tho determining a path thereto may be tricky. I'm trying postmaster@forest.ecil.iastate.edu. Have a nice day. -- -- uunet!sugar!karl "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." -- Emerson -- Usenet access: (713) 438-5018
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (04/12/90)
In article <5560@sugar.hackercorp.com>, karl@sugar.hackercorp.com (Karl Lehenbauer) writes... ^Are you going to start a new round of postings, this time consisting of ^personal attacks on Commodore management? Oh, sorry, you already have. ^ ^Once again, we see how much trouble one caustic individual can cause when they ^are not affected one whit by the censure of their net-peers. ^ ^I do not think email to the administrators of Marc's site is unwarranted at ^this point, 'tho determining a path thereto may be tricky. I'm trying ^postmaster@forest.ecil.iastate.edu. Have a nice day. ^-- ^-- uunet!sugar!karl "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." -- Emerson ^-- Usenet access: (713) 438-5018 Hmmm...this is the second message that I have seen on getting Mr. Barrett axed and I'd like to ask that you please put him in your kill file rather than seek some sort of "official" action with his sysadmin. Let the *ah hem* gentleman post what he will...it is a free net so far... You don't need to read the junk he posts. If you (like me) do not have a rn program that can kill authors and not just subjects...well the n key still works. I too find him annoying when I accidently read his posts...but I don't bother responding to him. Just seems to encourage him...after all it does seem that these are all just attention getting tactics. NT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A| Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc. - xrtnt@csdr.gsfc.nasa.gov // m| // i| Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own. \\ // g| \X/ a| "Producing a system from specifications is like walking on water... | It's a helluva lot easier if it's frozen" - Seen on a wall... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
admiral@m-5.Sun.COM (Michael Limprecht SUN Microsystems Mt. View Ca.) (04/12/90)
In article <16463@snow-white.udel.EDU>, BARRETT%FOREST.ECIL.IASTATE.EDU@cunyvm.cuny.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > > The Commodore upper management people do seem to finally have their > acts together. Commodore now has an absolutely top-notch crack R&D > team, especially in software development. Hardware development could > be better, though, but is suffering from the two years whem under > Max Toy, R&D funds for Amiga projects were cut back somewhat in favor > of R&D on PC clone hardware. > I'm going to withhold judgement about hardware developement until I see the A3000. If just just another rehash of old Amy architecture with a faster processor then I'm not so sure. The Amiga needs a serious overhaul after six years if CBM wants to keep up or stay ahead with PC's and Mac's. This isn't the fault of the R&D staff itself, I'm sure they are a talented bunch, but of the management leading it. They make the decisions on what to do. Save the flames on limited budgets and so forth. CBM has burned there cash on PC clones and overpriced bridgeboards, not on the next generation Amiga. Please CBM, prove me wrong with the A3000. -Mick ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think there's a world market for about 5 computers." - Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of the Board, IBM (around 1948) uucp: {anywhere}!sun!admiral -------------------------------------------------------------------
root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) (04/12/90)
In article <1614@dftsrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov writes: >In article <5560@sugar.hackercorp.com>, karl@sugar.hackercorp.com (Karl Lehenbauer) writes... >Hmmm...this is the second message that I have seen on getting Mr. Barrett >axed and I'd like to ask that you please put him in your kill file rather than >seek some sort of "official" action with his sysadmin. Let the *ah hem* >gentleman post what he will...it is a free net so far... You don't need to >read the junk he posts. No, I think not. Ordinarily, ten years of Usenetting had made my skin thick enough to tolerate just about anything until I came across Mr Barretts posting about Mr Gould and Mr Ali. The sort of statements he made in that posting benefit no one. Perhaps it is his thing to watch the ripples generated in Usenet by his postings, but we should no more tolerate his sort of nonsense than we tolerate someone yelling fire in a darkened theater. >If you (like me) do not have a rn program that can kill authors and not just >subjects...well the n key still works. Look, if you want to stick your head in the sand, that is your prerogative. I want to see Barrett off the net until he demonstrates a reasonable level of maturity and respect for others. > A| Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc. - xrtnt@csdr.gsfc.nasa.gov Rick Spanbauer State U of NY/Stony Brook
dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell) (04/12/90)
In article <7620@sbcs.sunysb.edu> root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) writes: > Look, if you want to stick your head in the sand, that is > your prerogative. I want to see Barrett off the net until he > demonstrates a reasonable level of maturity and respect for > others. Me too! When a person wishes a HUMAN BEING dead to benefit a COMPUTER, one has to wonder about his motives. This isn't a simple case of allowing someone to express an opinion, it's basic insanity for the sake of making waves. GET MARC BARRET OFF THE NET!! -- Dan Cogswell | If *ONE MORE* | Brakes waste gas. (313)625-3234 | person makes | Microwaves should INET: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu | a joke about | be seen - not heard! cogswell@unix.secs.oakland.edu | "Cogswell Cogs!!"| Kill the smiley!!
Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com (04/12/90)
> For the $2 million Mr. Ali grabbed for himself, those TEN people who > were laid off could be kept on for another year ... Boy, if those employees were getting $200,000/year, maybe I should apply for their jobs (tongue-in-cheek guys, no flames ...) LadyHawke
oleg@pnet01.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) (04/12/90)
Should we have a poll as to what percentage would like Mark Barret off the
net?
Mark, it is not enough to know that what you say "is terrible", at least for a
normal person. The difference between a normal person and a sociopath is
knowing what not to say and why. Wishing a person dead is quite beyond the
bounds of normality when the only benefit of the idea is promotion of one's
idea of what life should be like.
******************************************************************************
* THOSE DO NOT GET SERVED WHO ONLY SIT AND WAIT. | Post no bills |*
******************************************************************************
UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd ucsd nosc}!crash!pnet01!oleg
ARPA: crash!pnet01!oleg@nosc.mil
INET: oleg@pnet01.cts.comnew@udel.EDU (Darren New) (04/12/90)
In article <28813@cup.portal.com> Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes: > > > For the $2 million Mr. Ali grabbed for himself, those TEN people who > > were laid off could be kept on for another year ... > >Boy, if those employees were getting $200,000/year, maybe I should apply for >their jobs (tongue-in-cheek guys, no flames ...) LadyHawke I would be suprised if at least half of that money wasn't for "overhead" like office space rent, furniture, insurance, etc. But I'll still take $100K/yr. :-) -- Darren
trudel@revenge.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) (04/12/90)
In article <7620@sbcs.sunysb.edu> root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) writes: > Ordinarily, ten years of Usenetting > had made my skin thick enough to tolerate just about anything Ten years on Usenet and you still don't get it???? Oh Please!! Since when can you find maturity on Usenet anywhere consistently? As a sysadmin, I would never pull someone's account (or posting access) because of derogatory postings. It's rare that posting privs get revoked, unless the poster starts with posting money-making schemes... Mind you, if people complain about a poster, I suggest that the poster tone down his or her messages so as not to cause such complaints.
mseidle@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Mike Seidle) (04/12/90)
I've only been reading this group for a few weeks, but I don't see the point in censoring Marc. All he has done (that I've seen) is post some opinions that are a little too strong, and not mainstream. The original "Top Management" message may have been worded a bit too strongly, but it illustrates why CBM has been prone to massive failure. If CBM put 16M into Advertising, why is it I can't find an add in any of the big (Infoworld, UNIXweek, PCmagazine, PC World, PC Week, MAC week) magizines ? The Amiga is an excellent personal system which suffers from an image problem, and wasting an advertising campain on current Amiga Users (where else did it go ?) was not the way to become legit. Sorry if I stepped on any toes, but I'm having trouble making up my mind on buying an Amiga, Atari, 386, or a Macintosh. I don't want to buy another computer which gets dumped (like my first the TI-994a). I hope CBM gets it all togather, because everyone is closing in on their niche. Unfourtunatly, in the buisiness, only IBM can work a miracle, and get credit for it :) Mike
peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) (04/13/90)
In article <11066@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> mseidle@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Mike Seidle) writes: > >If CBM put >16M into Advertising, why is it I can't find an add in any of the >big (Infoworld, UNIXweek, PCmagazine, PC World, PC Week, MAC week) >magizines ? The Amiga is an excellent personal system which suffers from >an image problem, and wasting an advertising campain on current Amiga >Users (where else did it go ?) was not the way to become legit. Sorry. I guess it was all spent on fly-by-night low-circulation magazines like like Time and Newsweek :-). I think you will find that the advertising campaign most definitely has raised awareness of the entire Amiga product line. This is good for everyone. Several software producers, for example, have said that it was like on January 1st, somebody turned on a big switch. Well, 15 million dollars makes a big switch indeed. > Sorry if I stepped on any toes, but I'm having trouble making up >my mind on buying an Amiga, Atari, 386, or a Macintosh. I don't want >to buy another computer which gets dumped (like my first the TI-994a). >I hope CBM gets it all togather, because everyone is closing in on their >niche. Unfourtunatly, in the buisiness, only IBM can work a miracle, and >get credit for it :) I am (along with countless others) banking a lot more than the money I spent on my Amiga on the product's success. I'm not shaking in my boots. >Mike Peter -- Peter Cherna, Software Engineer, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!peter peter@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com My opinions do not necessarily represent the opinions of my employer. "Taking care of business... and working overtime"
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (04/13/90)
In article <7620@sbcs.sunysb.edu>, root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) writes... ^In article <1614@dftsrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov writes: ^>In article <5560@sugar.hackercorp.com>, karl@sugar.hackercorp.com (Karl Lehenbauer) writes... ^>Hmmm...this is the second message that I have seen on getting Mr. Barrett ^>axed and I'd like to ask that you please put him in your kill file rather than ^>seek some sort of "official" action with his sysadmin. Let the *ah hem* ^>gentleman post what he will...it is a free net so far... You don't need to ^>read the junk he posts. ^ ^ No, I think not. Ordinarily, ten years of Usenetting ^ had made my skin thick enough to tolerate just about anything ^ until I came across Mr Barretts posting about Mr Gould and ^ Mr Ali. The sort of statements he made in that posting ^ benefit no one. Perhaps it is his thing to watch the ripples ^ generated in Usenet by his postings, but we should no more ^ tolerate his sort of nonsense than we tolerate someone yelling ^ fire in a darkened theater. The analogy is not correct. Yelling fire in a darkened theater can be deadly. I think that it is also illegal. If you freak out over this silliness then I'd suggest that you avoid the more...shall we say, strong newsgroups (talk.xxxx). Also I've noted one post that actually says that the person liked Marc's post. Let it be. ^ ^>If you (like me) do not have a rn program that can kill authors and not just ^>subjects...well the n key still works. ^ ^ Look, if you want to stick your head in the sand, that is ^ your prerogative. I want to see Barrett off the net until he ^ demonstrates a reasonable level of maturity and respect for ^ others. ^ I don't want to be put in the wierd situtation of defending the Mr Barrett. However, I do think you are blowing it bit out of proportion. If you like accusing me of apathy then that is your prerogative. Getting into strange flame wars over computers is not my sort of thing. Do what you want. It just seems petty to me. ^ ^ Rick Spanbauer ^ State U of NY/Stony Brook I'd like to ask that people do not send me more mail on this topic. I don't particularly enjoy Mr Barrett's posts and do not wish to continue "defending" him. Thanks! Nigel Tzeng -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- // | Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc - NASA/GSFC COBE Project \X/ | xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov | Amiga | Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
chad@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (darknight) (04/13/90)
In article <7620@sbcs.sunysb.edu> root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) writes: >In article <1614@dftsrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov writes: >>In article <5560@sugar.hackercorp.com>, karl@sugar.hackercorp.com (Karl Lehenbauer) writes... >>Hmmm...this is the second message that I have seen on getting Mr. Barrett > > generated in Usenet by his postings, but we should no more > tolerate his sort of nonsense than we tolerate someone yelling > fire in a darkened theater. The difference is that no one has been hurt by Marc's somewhat annoying and offensive (mostly ignorant) postings... Until he breaks some major Usenet "rules", I don't anyone should have the right to kick him off... Believe it or not, it looks to me like he is trying to raise (in his mind) valid points, and is not just trying to tick people off. As has been said before, these are computers, and most people have access to a kill file or other means of avoiding him. "We have the technology". I find followups (like this one) more annoying, and if anyone thinks that no one else in the future will ever be as annoying as Marc, then you're wrong. Learn how to deal with it on a personal level (kill files, private flames, etc.), and NOT through higher channel censorship. Thanx for listening... -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INTERNET: chad@slugmail.ucsc.edu Chad 'The_Walrus' Netzer->AmigaManiac++ "Never piss off a guy who understands technology." ------====== "Life is a Strange Attractor." ======-------
chad@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (darknight) (04/13/90)
In article <2191@crash.cts.com> oleg@pnet01.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) writes: > >Should we have a poll as to what percentage would like Mark Barret off the >net? >Wishing a person dead is quite beyond the bounds of normality when the >only benefit of the idea is promotion of one's idea of what life >should be like. So is wishing for (and actively working for) someone to have their Usenet privileges removed on the basis of making a few mistakes. Both are occuring because people are getting upset over how an individual feels he should run his life, and other people feel he should be systematically screwed for life. If you do not see the parallels, then I think you are blind. (MY opinions). I suggest everyone just COOL down and handle this in a rational manner (and avoid the witch hunt methodology that this is becoming). If you don't like what Marc has to say, write him e-mail and tell him so. Be SPECIFIC about what offends you and why. Ask him to stop... If he doesn't stop after a week or so, you MAY have a case against him that warrants his restriction in some way from the net, but PROBABLY NOT! Instead, just don't read anything he says. You don't have too. I still say he didn't break any "rules" (as much as their are rules on Usenet), and wishing someone were dead (as distasteful an opinion as it is) is not the same as saying that that someone should be killed (ie. it wasn't conspiracy or anything). In my opinion, people who feel they have the right to remove the priveleges of someone else, solely for disagreeing with them, are themselves the ones who do not DESERVE to read the net. (MHO) I shall post no more on the subject in this group. All flames should be directed to e-mail. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ INTERNET: chad@slugmail.ucsc.edu Chad 'The_Walrus' Netzer->AmigaManiac++ "Never piss off a guy who understands technology." ------====== "Life is a Strange Attractor." ======-------
root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) (04/13/90)
In article <16638@estelle.udel.EDU> new@ee.udel.edu (Darren New) writes: >In article <28813@cup.portal.com> Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes: >> >> > For the $2 million Mr. Ali grabbed for himself, those TEN people who >> > were laid off could be kept on for another year ... >> >>Boy, if those employees were getting $200,000/year, maybe I should apply for >>their jobs (tongue-in-cheek guys, no flames ...) LadyHawke > >I would be suprised if at least half of that money wasn't for "overhead" >like office space rent, furniture, insurance, etc. But I'll still >take $100K/yr. :-) -- Darren flame_on() { Uh, people, before you pass judgement on what people make I suggest that you consider there is more to life than hanging out in the dorms and eating frozen macaroni and cheese dinners. If you lived in NYC, you might find $100K hard to live by, believe it or not (apts go $1500 and up in the city). Or perhaps that $100K doesn't include benefits, eg pension, health insurance, etc - those are benefits expensive AND necessary, believe it or not. Or maybe they just compensate their executives well because they are laying them off constantly. And of course maybe, just maybe, these people have paid their hacker peanut butter cycles (just like we are now) and they are at the stage of their lives where a career full of hard work is paying off. So let's just call this entire salary thing and whether people are worth what they are paid, etc a dead issue and move on. You obviously are rather naive about how salaries are determined. Rick Spanbauer State U of NY/Stony Brook }
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (04/13/90)
In article <7648@sbcs.sunysb.edu>, root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) writes... ^In article <16638@estelle.udel.EDU> new@ee.udel.edu (Darren New) writes: ^>In article <28813@cup.portal.com> Classic_-_Concepts@cup.portal.com writes: ^>> ^>> > For the $2 million Mr. Ali grabbed for himself, those TEN people who ^>> > were laid off could be kept on for another year ... ^>> ^>>Boy, if those employees were getting $200,000/year, maybe I should apply for ^>>their jobs (tongue-in-cheek guys, no flames ...) LadyHawke ^> ^>I would be suprised if at least half of that money wasn't for "overhead" ^>like office space rent, furniture, insurance, etc. But I'll still ^>take $100K/yr. :-) -- Darren ^ ^flame_on() ^{ ^ Uh, people, before you pass judgement on what people ^ make I suggest that you consider there is more to life ^ than hanging out in the dorms and eating frozen macaroni ^ and cheese dinners. If you lived in NYC, you might find ^ $100K hard to live by, believe it or not (apts go $1500 and ^ up in the city). Or perhaps that $100K doesn't include ^ benefits, eg pension, health insurance, etc - those are ^ benefits expensive AND necessary, believe it or not. Or maybe ^ they just compensate their executives well because they ^ are laying them off constantly. And of course maybe, just maybe, ^ these people have paid their hacker peanut butter cycles (just ^ like we are now) and they are at the stage of their lives where ^ a career full of hard work is paying off. So let's just ^ call this entire salary thing and whether people are worth ^ what they are paid, etc a dead issue and move on. You ^ obviously are rather naive about how salaries are determined. ^ ^ Rick Spanbauer ^ State U of NY/Stony Brook ^} I think the original post was complaining about bonuses for the top management. It does not seem to me that they have done anything significant to warrant 2-4 million dollar bonuses. In fact it looks remarkably similar to the recent gouging by top management of junk bond place that went belly up. IF Commodore is suffering right now it would have been better for the company and users of the amiga if they had held off until the 3000 came out and stock value went back up. At least then they could say: Look...we've been doing a great job! Sales are up...blah blah blah. Also no one in the two later posts said anything about anyone earning too much. Read the things before you call anyone "obviously naive". Nigel Tzeng -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- // | Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc - NASA/GSFC COBE Project \X/ | xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov | Amiga | Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/13/90)
In article <Apr.12.10.28.30.1990.5023@revenge.rutgers.edu> trudel@revenge.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) writes: >In article <7620@sbcs.sunysb.edu> root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) writes: > >> Ordinarily, ten years of Usenetting >> had made my skin thick enough to tolerate just about anything > >Ten years on Usenet and you still don't get it???? Oh Please!! >Since when can you find maturity on Usenet anywhere consistently? > >As a sysadmin, I would never pull someone's account (or posting >access) because of derogatory postings. It's rare that posting privs >get revoked, unless the poster starts with posting money-making >schemes... > >Mind you, if people complain about a poster, I suggest that the poster >tone down his or her messages so as not to cause such complaints. The difference here is that Marc Barrett is posting completely childish things, things which are wildly opinionated and have no substance behind them. His complete immaturity should be clear from the time he posted 4 articles back-to-back slamming Commodore and the Amiga in general. He is either a little kid or has some mental problem where he needs attention. According to one person, he has already cost sales of Amigas because of his comments. I don't think he has any right to stay. Kill file isn't good enough, cause then people who don't know about him will read his remarks and not see replies. -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu "If Commodore had to market sushi they'd call it `raw cold fish'" -- The Bandito, inevitably stolen from someone else
root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) (04/14/90)
In article <1636@dftsrv.gsfc.nasa.gov> xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov writes: >In article <7648@sbcs.sunysb.edu>, root@sbcs.sunysb.edu (Systems Staff) writes... >It does not seem to me that they have done anything significant to warrant 2-4 >million dollar bonuses. In fact it looks remarkably similar to the recent >gouging by top management of junk bond place that went belly up. IF Commodore >is suffering right now it would have been better for the company and users of >the amiga if they had held off until the 3000 came out and stock value went >back up. At least then they could say: Look...we've been doing a great job! >Sales are up...blah blah blah. >Nigel Tzeng Nigel, implicit in this line of postings is that the people are complaining about the magnitude of the bonus. If the bonuses were $1K, would there be complaints? If not, then you are complaining magnitude, ie "too much". If you folks are really that worked up over this, then do us all a favour: stop posting and go buy some Commodore stock. Vote your position, don't try to convince me. I happen to believe in capitalism and part of that belief is that people get compensated for hard work or wise decisions. The bonuses that were paid are surely the result of one or the other as they've landed themselves into a situation where such bonuses are possible. Right? Rick Spanbauer State U of NY/Stony Brook