cb1p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Chris Beasley) (05/02/90)
The WORST thing about optical mice.. not only do they need that optical grating pad, they must be orthogonal to it to achieve the correct motion: place your optical mouse diagonally on the pad and move it in the x and y directions with respect to it's own coordinate frame. The pointer on the sreen moves diagonally. A rolling (mechanical) mouse will properly transmit the information relative to it's own coordinate frame, not the coordinate frame of the mouse pad. Sorry but this has gotten to be a bit of a peeve for me. CB
micke@slaka.sirius.se (Mikael Karlsson) (05/02/90)
In article <727@sky.COM> brian@sky.COM (Brian Pelletier) writes: >In article <18184@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >> >> I kind of wish Commodore, with the Amiga 3000, would set a standard >>in the PC market by using an optical mouse with it. I find mechanical >>mice to be very aggrevating. I use a BOING! mouse here, and it is an >Well, I have to disagree here. I have a SparcStation with one of the Sun- >supplied optical mice, and I find it to be quite the pain in the *ss to use. >Not only does it have this tiny little grid you have to stay on, but you also >have to keep the grid *exactly* lined up with the way the mouse is facing. I guess it's time people got acquainted to some other optical mice apart from the Sun/Mouse Systems mouse. Xerox makes a truly wonderful mouse that you can use on the supplied mouse pad (actually just a paper with raster dots), on a Xerox-copy of this raster-paper, on a rasterized(sp?) picture in a newspaper, on your jeans and just about anything else with dots on. And it doesn't care about whether you line it up or not. It shouldn't be to expensive to build either. It contains one (1!) IC. > -Brian /Mikael PS. Marc, hang in there. -- \_/ Mikael Karlsson, Lovsattersvagen 10, S-585 98 LINKOPING, SWEDEN V | micke@slaka.sirius.se | Absolut Software | micke@slaka.UUCP ~~~ | {mcvax,seismo}!sunic!liuida!slaka!micke
chrise@hubcap.clemson.edu (Chris Everhart) (05/02/90)
> It does happen though. My school has an Amiga lab with a handful of 500's > and 1000's. The mice are almost all in some state of disrepair. It was > so bad that when I needed to do work on one at school, I would bring along > my mouse from home. (Of course it's best to keep in mind that the school's > Amigas are almost constantly in use, operated by people with little or no > concern for the survival of the hardware...) I think that may be it. The abuse that students give the machines is terrible. I don't think the optical mice would survive it any better. I wish people would learn to respect public property...oh well. > measured in months than in years. I'm beginning to question the value of > mouse pads. It seems to me that I had to clean the rollers inside less > often when I just used it on a formica surface... Hmm. When I first got my mouse pad, I had to clean my mouse a couple times shortly afterward because it was a cloth pad, and started to shet into my mouse, but after the loose stuff was removed from it, everything was much cleaner. Chris Everhart chrise@hubcap.clemson.edu
baronz@caen.engin.umich.edu (Aaron L Richards) (05/03/90)
No thanks. The mouse I rec'd w/ my 1000 is the best fitting mouse I have ever felt. It fits my palm perfectly, and seems to roll over anything. I have had it for ~5 years and it has been trouble free to the day I write this article. The big pain with optical mice is the little grid that has to be available all the time. I would have to dig the grid out from whatever stack of paper it was under, or clean my desk, neither which thrills me.
brian@sky.COM (Brian Pelletier) (05/03/90)
In article <18184@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > > I kind of wish Commodore, with the Amiga 3000, would set a standard >in the PC market by using an optical mouse with it. I find mechanical >mice to be very aggrevating. I use a BOING! mouse here, and it is an >absolutely wonderful mouse to use. But all of the systems at school -- >including the big & expensive workstations, all all of the MAC systems >-- all use machanical mice. They wear out easily,and develop a "skid" >so that they start to not work in certain directions. > Well, I have to disagree here. I have a SparcStation with one of the Sun- supplied optical mice, and I find it to be quite the pain in the *ss to use. Not only does it have this tiny little grid you have to stay on, but you also have to keep the grid *exactly* lined up with the way the mouse is facing. I know people who like them, and others who don't. For my money, I'd rather have the mechanical mouse that lets me move in any direction with ease. > Food For Though: did you know that the mouse that Sun includes with >their SparcStations and the BOING! mouse are exactly the same mouse? >Apparently, Sun and whoever-produced-the-BOING!-mouse get them from >the same source. > They appear to be Mouse Systems mice to me... -Brian
velasco@beowulf.ucsd.edu (Gabriel Velasco) (05/03/90)
(Marc Barrett) writes: > > I kind of wish Commodore, with the Amiga 3000, would set a standard >in the PC market by using an optical mouse with it. Then a bunch of people disagree with him. I think that the best situation would be to support both and let the user decide. In general a computer should easily support as many different types of input devices as it can. ________________________________________________ <>___, / / | ... and he called out and said, "Gabriel, give | /___/ __ / _ __ ' _ / | this man an understanding of the vision." | /\__/\(_/\/__)\/ (_/_(/_/|_ |_______________________________________Dan_8:16_|
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (05/03/90)
In article <8299@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu> velasco@beowulf.UUCP (Gabriel Velasco) writes: >(Marc Barrett) writes: >> I kind of wish Commodore, with the Amiga 3000, would set a standard >>in the PC market by using an optical mouse with it. > >Then a bunch of people disagree with him. > >decide. In general a computer should easily support as many different types > of input devices as it can. The Amiga (any model) supports both types (machanical and optical) TODAY!! You can get the same mouse that Sun ships with their workstations (made by mouse systems, I believe), with a proper Amiga interface, from GfxBase, the makers of X11 for the Amiga. I recall that Harv Laser really likes that mouse, and Creative Computers might still sell it for $99. -- Marco -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) (05/03/90)
><> >Item:7541 About: Optical Mice. >Author: [Marc Barrett] (*Masked*@owl.ecil.iastate.edu) >Date: Wed May 2 09:36:07 1990 Hmm.. (nice post Marc , rational , not to upsetting and valid.) >including the big & expensive workstations, all all of the MAC systems >-- all use machanical mice. They wear out easily,and develop a "skid" >so that they start to not work in certain directions. I have had the mouse on my 1000 since I purchased it (the fist week they shipped) .. it has developed NO problems (I clean it every now and again) at all. The mechanical mouse on my unix station has more that 3 years on it (a LOGITECH) , with none of the problems you describe. I find optical mice picky about orientation of the mouse pad , limitin (only move on pad) .. and easily confused by dust and so on .. "Alexander The Great Claims Third Term For Nixon," Teen Insists. ********[ Xanadu Enterprises Inc. Amiga & Unix Software Development]******** * Kenneth J. Jamieson | "Far beyond these castle walls, where the distant * * uunet!tronsbox!tron1 | harbor meets the sky, there the battles raged * * All origional text | like hell, and every dove had lost it's will * * Copr 1990 by me. | to fly......." Styx - These Castle Walls * *_____________________/ \__________________________________________________* * NONE of the opinions represented here are endorsed by either Xanadu * * Xanadu Enterpises or it's clients, AT&T Bell Labs or others. * ****[ The Romantic Encounters BBS 201-759-8450(2400) / 201-759-8568(PEP)****
hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) (05/03/90)
In article <24469@usc.edu> papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: > >The Amiga (any model) supports both types (machanical and optical) TODAY!! >You can get the same mouse that Sun ships with their workstations (made >by mouse systems, I believe), with a proper Amiga interface, from GfxBase, >the makers of X11 for the Amiga. I recall that Harv Laser really likes >that mouse, and Creative Computers might still sell it for $99. > Or maybe even a little less than that now. I'm still usin' my Boing mouse and it's still working great (it was an Xmas '88 present to myself). Stock Amiga mice just feel big and clunky and toy-like to me now. What I _would_ like to get someday would be a slightly larger mirrored pad for the thing... although the one it comes with is REAL grippy and generally stays put, it does, sometimes, wander on my desk a bit and I find myself overrunning its borders and of course the mouse's LEDs don't register against a wooden desk surface. The only other thing I regret about the Boing mouse is that now I can't use the nifty mousepad I got from INFO magazine - the one with a clear window that holds command template cards underneath it :-) but that's okay 'cuz Mark Brown (INFO's Senior Editor) told me he always uses a Boing mouse too, although Benn Dunnington (INFO's Owner/Publisher), he said, prefers the stock rodent so INFO will probably keep publishing new cards to fit inside their pads. Through lots of use I've found that the Boing mouse's felt feet need brushing now and then to bring the nap back up but other than that, and maybe a shot of Windex and a quick wipe with a towel across the pad, no other maintenance. Perhaps one of the neatest things about using a 3-button mouse is a program written by Khalid Aldoseri called "switcher" which can be activated by the middle button... I can't overemphasize enough the wonderfulness of Switcher and if you've recently gotten yourself a Boing, or other 3-button mouse, do whatever it takes to track down this program and try it. Harv Plink: CBM*HARV
tulloh@cantor.ACA.MCC.COM (Robert Tulloh) (05/04/90)
In article <727@sky.COM>, brian@sky.COM (Brian Pelletier) writes: > > Well, I have to disagree here. I have a SparcStation with one of the Sun- > supplied optical mice, and I find it to be quite the pain in the *ss to use. > Not only does it have this tiny little grid you have to stay on, but you also > have to keep the grid *exactly* lined up with the way the mouse is facing. > I know people who like them, and others who don't. For my money, I'd rather > have the mechanical mouse that lets me move in any direction with ease. > > -Brian I have a Sun workstation and I love the optical mouse. I have an Amiga 500 at home and the mouse performs quite badly now that is just over 1.5 years old. I treat my mouse pretty good (considering I like the shell better than workbench) and I have a mouse pad. I have heard people complain about the optical mouse on the Sun, but they usually are happier once they get a bigger pad. We have a couple of SparcStations here and the only complaint I've heard about them is the keyboard is a little different. Anyway, while we are talking about mice, the local Commodore dealer here tells me it will cost $100 to replace my mouse (ouch!). I have seen several mouses available from mail order which range from $40 to $120. Any reccomendations? - Rob tulloh@mcc.com
dale@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dale Luck - Amiga) (05/04/90)
In article <2508@crash.cts.com> hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) writes: >_would_ like to get someday would be a slightly larger mirrored pad for >the thing... although the one it comes with is REAL grippy and generally >stays put, it does, sometimes, wander on my desk a bit and I find myself >overrunning its borders and of course the mouse's LEDs don't register >against a wooden desk surface. Glad you like the mouse. We now have mouse pads available both as replacements and upgrades. Unfortunately there is no bigger flex pad. The bigger pads have aluminum backing which makes them much more expensive. One of the nice things about the aluminum is you can set it on top of the A2000 or A3000 and hold it in place by putting the monitor base over a corner. The pad now sticks straight out in the air (off to right). No longer do I worry about loosing the mouse pad in a pile of papers. What I really want to do is get some sheets of mylar imprinted with the proper pattern. Then I'd sell mouse pads by the square yard. ;-) You could cover your desk with one and never have to worry. Except for finding an open spot on your desk. Little advertisment: Available now: Boing! mouse pads. Flex pad 8x9 $19.95 (Same as original pad) Flex pad 8x7 $14.95 Alum pad 8x9 $29.95 Alum pad 9x11 $49.95 Available direct or from your dealer. GfxBase 1881 Ellwell Dr. Milpitas, Ca. 95035 213-854-0310 408-262-1469
poirier@dg-rtp.dg.com (Charles Poirier) (05/04/90)
In article <18184@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >I find mechanical mice to be very aggrevating. I use a BOING! mouse here, ^^^^^^^^^^^ >and it is an absolutely wonderful mouse to use. If you like it, fine. But I find the optical mouse most aggravating. >But all of the systems at school -- ^^^ >including the big & expensive workstations, all all of the MAC systems ^^^^^^^ >-- all use machanical mice. They wear out easily,and develop a "skid" ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ >so that they start to not work in certain directions. Almost every skid problem I've seen was cured by this simple procedure: 1) Pop out the ball. 2) Pop open your pocketknife. 3) Ruthlessly scrape off all the black stuff from all three rollers. Those are *not* traction bands, they are solidified hand grease. 3a) If there is cat hair wrapped around the roller spindles, pick that off with a pair of tweezers. 4) The ball is coated with hand grease too. Wash the ball with lots of detergent and dry it. If you omit this step, the problem returns much sooner. 5) Pop the ball back in. The one skid problem that this didn't cure was traced to a broken conductor in the cable; a problem which could happen as easily to an optical mouse. I'm hardly surprised when students trash their environment and don't do anything voluntarily to improve it. Cleaning, eeyuck. Sheesh, I've had to clean my terminal screen several times, but does that make it inferior, as a display device, to a teletype? >Optical mice are great because they cannot wear out (except for the >buttons) and are generally higher resolution than mechanical mice. Can you support these claims? Note that on the Amiga, the mouse cursor (any Sprite actually) is displayed with only 320-pixel resolution, even on a high-res screen; but the input device does see full 640-pixel resolution from the mouse. Try using Deluxe Paint in hi-res with coords turned on, and see what I mean. How much higher resolution do you need? > -MB- I know people will think me mean and arbitrary for saying this, especially anyone who this shoe fits; but the fact is, sloppy spelling, typos, and bad editing hurt one's credibility. Clean it up and you'll be better received. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Specifically, the Mouse Systems mouse I use at work bugs me because: 1) I had to tape the silly mat to my desk, thus permanently burning up an 8" by 9" area; 1a) The area is too small. For my Amiga mouse, I covered my whole desk with two big pseudo-cork mats. Now I can mouse around anywhere, and still can use the whole desk for any normal desk-type use! 2) It suffers from significantly more cursor backlash upon lift/replace than I get with my Amiga mouse. The optics are near the back, so my normal tilt-up-and-lift motion doesn't decouple the optics until the mouse front is a good half inch off the mat. 3) Occasionally the mouse is left sufficiently between pixels on the mirror grid that it can't quite decide where it is, and the cursor oscillates erratically on the screen between two positions. Ugly and brainburning. Roller mice can't malfunction in this mode. Three cheers to Commodore for resistance to inappropriate trendiness. I wish they'd started out with three buttons as standard, but I can understand not changing the standard at this late date. 3 Cheers, Charles Poirier poirier@dg-rtp.dg.com
poirier@dg-rtp.dg.com (Charles Poirier) (05/04/90)
In article <23798@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> swann@acsu.Buffalo.EDU (stephen swann) writes: >I'm beginning to question the value of >mouse pads. It seems to me that I had to clean the rollers inside less >often when I just used it on a formica surface... Unless the mouse pad is particularly absorbent, it won't much reduce the need for cleaning. The main advantage of most pads is to prevent the ball from sliding rather than rolling. A textured, non-porous pad may even make the cleaning problem worse by trapping hand grease in the little dimples such that wiping won't touch it, but the convexity of the ball makes great contact. Formica may be *so* smooth that much of the hand grease wipes off on your sleeve or something. I imagine the ball would skid a lot, though. Just a guess. Cheers, Charles Poirier poirier@dg-rtp.dg.com
pds@quintus.UUCP (Peter Schachte) (05/04/90)
In article <5108@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> barrett@jhunix.UUCP (Dan Barrett) writes: >Or are there some optical mice that don't need a special mousepad Xerox has an optical mouse that uses a pad that you can copy in a photocopier. This means you can make it as big as you want, even cover your desk with it. It also slides much more smoothly than any Sun mouse (same the Boing mouse) I've ever used, since it's just sliding on paper. And it doesn't get as confused as the Sun mouse if it's not oriented parallel to the mouse pad. If it were available for the Amiga, I'd buy one. (Hear that, Dale?) -- -Peter Schachte pds@quintus.uucp ...!sun!quintus!pds
velasco@beowulf.ucsd.edu (Gabriel Velasco) (05/04/90)
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) writes: >I find optical mice picky about orientation of the mouse pad , limitin (only >move on pad) .. and easily confused by dust and so on .. Let me preface my comments by saying that I don't favor one over the other. The sparkstations which we have recently acquired came with a pad which was a little different from the ones that we had with the older suns. It is smaller and the grid has different colors in it (I think). They seem to work better than the older ones with respect to orientation and dust. I haven't done any really controlled tests. This is just an impression. Does anyone have any good info on this? ________________________________________________ <>___, / / | ... and he called out and said, "Gabriel, give | /___/ __ / _ __ ' _ / | this man an understanding of the vision." | /\__/\(_/\/__)\/ (_/_(/_/|_ |_______________________________________Dan_8:16_|
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (05/04/90)
In article <727@sky.COM>, brian@sky.COM (Brian Pelletier) writes: > > Well, I have to disagree here. I have a SparcStation with one of the Sun- > supplied optical mice, and I find it to be quite the pain in the *ss to use. > Not only does it have this tiny little grid you have to stay on, but you also > have to keep the grid *exactly* lined up with the way the mouse is facing. > I know people who like them, and others who don't. For my money, I'd rather > have the mechanical mouse that lets me move in any direction with ease. > > -Brian Hmm, I keep seeing people say this, but I have yet to experience this phenomena in all the time I have spent working on Sun workstations. I think you are confused because you got used to using a mechanical mouse first. With a mechanical mouse you have to pay attention to the orientation of the mouse because if your mouse gets rotated in your hand (if you bend your wrist) the movement of the pointer will continue to be relative to the mouse orientation, while an optical mouse is independent of mouse orientation (within about +/- 45 degrees). For example, if you rotate your Amiga mouse clockwise 20 or 30 degrees and then move the mouse horizontally of course the pointer will move up at the same time it moves to the right. With the Sun optical mouse the same action will have the pointer moving only horizontally without reference to the orientation of the mouse. However if you rotate it too far it will have trouble registering the guide-lines. Since I rarely rotate my mouse more than 45 degrees in either direction this has never been a problem for me. I first noticed the trouble I was having with my Amiga mechanical mouse when I obtained Marble Madness a few years ago. I would be trying to move the marble by moving the mouse, but the marble seemed to go in strange directions at times. Finally I realised that I was rotating the mouse while I was trying to move it, and this was adding extra directional input that I wasn't taking into account. After concentrating on not rotating the mouse I was finally able to defeat this evil game ;^). Later I bought a track ball and that really made the game easier. In many ways an optical mouse is analogous to a track ball in that the pointer motion is only dependent on the mouse's directional motion, without reference to its rotational movement. -- --Steve DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own (I don't speak for Convex) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM
gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (05/04/90)
I have a Xerox lisp machine that has one of these attached to it. They are nice. They never get dirty and they always feel right. My Amiga mouse had a tendency to get a sort of hop in it when it got dirty. Sometimes it was very hard to get rid of this hop. I also prefer this Xerox mouse over the Sun mouse I use at work, because I find myself constantly adjusting the Sun mouse, and hardly ever adjusting the Xerox mouse. (This could be a function of the user interface, though.) I think it would be easy to replace the Amiga mouse with the Xerox mouse. I'm pretty sure it runs on 5v like the Amiga mouse and pretty sure the outputs are ttl compatible. -- Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com If it can be shown that the machinery has come into the world as a curse, there is no reason whatever for for our respecting it because it is a marvellous and practical and productive curse. -G. K. Chesterton
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (05/05/90)
In article <36@cantor.ACA.MCC.COM> tulloh@cantor.ACA.MCC.COM (Robert Tulloh) writes: [...] >Anyway, while we are talking about mice, the local Commodore dealer here >tells me it will cost $100 to replace my mouse (ouch!). I have seen >several mouses available from mail order which range from $40 to $120. >Any reccomendations? Well, since I bought my trackball I recommend them to everyone. I think the best trackball for the Amiga is the AmTRAC from Microspeed. The latest version of this trackball is really slick looking, the way it curves down in the front where your palm rests. And the two "mouse" buttons completely encircle the ball (the left button is a semicircle "fingerboard" on the left, and the right button makes a semicircle on the right). This trackball also has a special third button up top that toggles ON/OFF when you hit it (an LED indicates the state), for easier dragging action. The one thing I get tired of with a mouse is the "rowing" action that is required. Inevitably I find myself rowing my way into that stack of diskettes (my fault for the clutter ;^) ), or papers, or whatever. The thing I like about a track ball is the way you can "throw" your pointer wherever you want it so quickly. (A few games of Marble Madness will have you throwing your pointer around in no time ;^) ). And it only needs the desk space where it sits. There is an ad for the AmTRAC in Amiga World by Creative Computers mail order Co. They are offering it for $64.95. I have seen several reviews for this peripheral, all highly positive. -- --Steve DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own (I don't speak for Convex) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM
SUGGS@freddy.dnet.hac.com (Brian) (05/05/90)
Chris Beasley <cb1p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes: >The WORST thing about optical mice.. >not only do they need that optical grating pad, they must be orthogonal >to it to achieve the correct motion: place your optical mouse diagonally >on the pad and move it in the x and y directions with respect to it's own >coordinate frame. The pointer on the sreen moves diagonally. I too prefer that direction of movement be relative to the orientation of the mouse and not the pad. But that doesn't mean you can't use optical mice. You should try out a Xerox workstation sometime. They have optical mice, but they don't have the undesirable property you describe. -Brian Suggs bsuggs@hac2arpa.hac.com
FelineGrace@cup.portal.com (Dana B Bourgeois) (05/05/90)
This thread just proves the old adage:
One man's bug is another man's feature.
Dana the bandwidth waster @ cup.portal.com :)space@ncc1701.sub.org (Lars Soltau) (05/05/90)
In article <1990May3.211920.18284@dg-rtp.dg.com> poirier@dg-rtp.dg.com (Charles Poirier) writes: [about mechanical mice] >Almost every skid problem I've seen was cured by this simple procedure: [cleaning procedure] OK, I think we can agree that it's a matter of taste whether you prefer optical or mechanical mice. But: Those buttons on the standard Amiga mouse suck raw eggs. They are of the kind you normally find in cheap Taiwan clock radios and you can bet that if you use them regularly, they will wear out rather soon. The buttons on my mouse (especially the left one) nowadays either don't react at all or react twice for one click. So, Commodore, if you don't want such simple details to destroy an upcoming image of professionality, design a new mouse that uses microswitches, like the ones on Sun mouses. With the cleaning of the ball I can live, with those buttons I can't. While I'm at it, please use a more flexible cable for the mouse. The one on my Commodore mouse is about as flexible as a Joystick cable and tends to get very much into the way. Compare this to the cable Atari uses on their mouses for the ST. (No, I am not an ST freak and I don't want to start another Amiga-ST flame war!) -- Lars Soltau bang: <insert ridiculously long path here> BIX: --no bucks-- smart: space@ncc1701.stgt.sub.org
brian@sky.COM (Brian Pelletier) (05/06/90)
In article <102026@convex.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: >In article <727@sky.COM>, brian@sky.COM (Brian Pelletier) writes: >> [I talk about my dislike of optical mice] > >I think you are confused because you got used to using a mechanical >mouse first. With a mechanical mouse you have to pay attention to Actually I had an optical mouse long before I got my Amiga. I think I've just gotten more used to the Amiga mouse since then. I really don't want to make a religious war out of this - I have 2 optical mice in my office, and a mechanical one at home. I prefer the mechanical one. Your mileage may vary. What I *did* want to respond to was the idea that Commodore could make their new computers 'better' by supplying an optical mouse rather than a mechanical one. This seems more of a matter of personal taste than a real improvement.... -Brian
andrewt@watnow.waterloo.edu (Andrew Thomas) (05/06/90)
In article <2508@crash.cts.com> hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) writes: >Stock Amiga mice just feel big and clunky and toy-like to me now. What I >_would_ like to get someday would be a slightly larger mirrored pad for >the thing... although the one it comes with is REAL grippy and generally >stays put, it does, sometimes, wander on my desk a bit and I find myself >overrunning its borders and of course the mouse's LEDs don't register >against a wooden desk surface. The only other thing I regret about the We have optical mice for the Xerox 1186 lisp stations here. We used these machines for undergrad courses and naturally didn't want the pads to be wrecked so we _photocopied_ them, covered the photocopies in plastic, and taped them to the table. They worked fine. I have no idea why. Maybe this should be in alt.folklore.computers? :-) -- Andrew Thomas andrewt@watnow.waterloo.edu Systems Design Eng. University of Waterloo "If a million people do a stupid thing, it's still a stupid thing." - Opus
david@twg.com (David Herron) (05/06/90)
I've started using an optical mouse recently, on a Sun 386i. They have a couple of advantages. Normal rolling mice tend to slide around on desktops ... optical mice don't. It's harder to orient rolling mice, sometimes you have the mouse cockeyed and it goes awry ... optical mice are very hard to get cockeyed. Basically I have to work at using the mouse a bit less than I do a rolling mouse. I "think" that a trackball would be better than either.. what's wrong with getting a boing mouse? -- <- David Herron, an MMDF weenie, <david@twg.com> <- Formerly: David Herron -- NonResident E-Mail Hack <david@ms.uky.edu> <- <- (funny quote under construction)
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (05/06/90)
In <898@tau.sm.luth.se>, d88-mbe@sm.luth.se (Michael Bergman) writes: > >Why do so many people prefer that pointer movement is relative to the >orentation of the mouse and not he pad? I have no problems at all using the >sun optical mouse, and I used mechanical mice before touching a sun. If you >have to do very precise work with the mouse, it is better if the pointer move- >nent is relative to the pad because if you unintentionally rotate the mouse >in your hand ever so little, you get undesirable results. Why do so many people like the taste of chocolate more than cucumbers? I think the clean, snappy taste of cucumber is so much more refreshing than the cloying, sickly sweetness of chocolate. :-) >If you rotate a sun mouse 10 or even 20 degress in your hand and then drag it >straight up with respect to the pad (and the orthogonal system your desk or >table is likely to be), the pointer *still* moves only vertically. >How can this be an undesirable property? I don't understand that at all! >I mean, it has to be much easier to have an intuitive feeling in your head for >the orthogonal system your desk (and pad) is than feeling a rotation of the >mouse in your hand 5 or 10 degrees (without looking at the mouse). I suppose it has something to do with what you orient your world view to. You could probably give this problem to a psychologist, and he would have a great time with it (of course he might have just as great a time with why you have a computer at all). I seem to be able to use either optical or mechanical meeces, though I tend to prefer mechanical because I can use it on a soft, flexible pad, and my wrist doesn't get sore or cold where it rest on the surface. When I use an optical mouse, I have to rest my wrist on a notepad to be comfortable. -larry -- NeXT. The hardware makes it a PC. The software makes it a workstation. The units shipped makes it a mainframe. -=stolen from Hazy=- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
d88-mbe@sm.luth.se (Michael Bergman) (05/07/90)
SUGGS@freddy.dnet.hac.com (Brian) writes: >I too prefer that direction of movement be relative to the orientation of >the mouse and not the pad. But that doesn't mean you can't use optical mice. >You should try out a Xerox workstation sometime. They have optical mice, but >they don't have the undesirable property you describe. Why do so many people prefer that pointer movement is relative to the orentation of the mouse and not he pad? I have no problems at all using the sun optical mouse, and I used mechanical mice before touching a sun. If you have to do very precise work with the mouse, it is better if the pointer move- nent is relative to the pad because if you unintentionally rotate the mouse in your hand ever so little, you get undesirable results. If you rotate a sun mouse 10 or even 20 degress in your hand and then drag it straight up with respect to the pad (and the orthogonal system your desk or table is likely to be), the pointer *still* moves only vertically. How can this be an undesirable property? I don't understand that at all! I mean, it has to be much easier to have an intuitive feeling in your head for the orthogonal system your desk (and pad) is than feeling a rotation of the mouse in your hand 5 or 10 degrees (without looking at the mouse). Mike -- Michael Bergman Internet: d88-mbe@sm.luth.se // Dept. of Comp. Eng. BITNET: d88-mbe%sm.luth.se@kth.se \X/ U of Lulea, SWEDEN ARPA: d88-mbe%sm.luth.se@ucbvax.berkeley.edu UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!sunic.se!sm.luth.se!d88-mbe
jep@mtiame.oz (Jesper Peterson) (05/07/90)
In article <11300@cbmvax.commodore.com> dale@cbmvax (Dale Luck - Amiga) writes: >What I really want to do is get some sheets of mylar imprinted with the >proper pattern. Then I'd sell mouse pads by the square yard. ;-) >You could cover your desk with one and never have to worry. Except for finding >an open spot on your desk. How about a mouse grid poster and a wall bracket for the mouse? Never have to worry about desk space again (just wall space :-). Oh and put me down for 3 sq.yards of your mylar. -- ACSnet: jep@mtiame.mtia.oz "This lottery is my bathroom." UUCP: ...!uunet!munnari!mtiame.oz!jep - Peg (Married with Children) PHONE: (03) 699-1022
SUGGS@freddy.dnet.hac.com (Brian) (05/07/90)
<GILHAM.90May4094912@cassius.csl.sri.com> writes: >I have a Xerox lisp machine that has one of these attached to it. >They are nice. Yes. [...] >I think it would be easy to replace the Amiga mouse with the Xerox >mouse. I'm pretty sure it runs on 5v like the Amiga mouse and pretty >sure the outputs are ttl compatible. Yes, it is. Yes it does. Yes they are. :^) >Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com -Brian bsuggs@hac2arpa.hac.com
unhd (Layton C Cote) (05/08/90)
In article <343@ncc1701.sub.org> space@ncc1701.sub.org (Lars Soltau) writes: >In article <1990May3.211920.18284@dg-rtp.dg.com> poirier@dg-rtp.dg.com (Charles Poirier) writes: >[about mechanical mice] >>Almost every skid problem I've seen was cured by this simple procedure: >[cleaning procedure] > >OK, I think we can agree that it's a matter of taste whether you prefer >optical or mechanical mice. But: Those buttons on the standard Amiga mouse >suck raw eggs. They are of the kind you normally find in cheap Taiwan clock >radios and you can bet that if you use them regularly, they will wear out >rather soon. The buttons on my mouse (especially the left one) nowadays either >don't react at all or react twice for one click. > > >While I'm at it, please use a more flexible cable for the mouse. The one on >my Commodore mouse is about as flexible as a Joystick cable and tends to get >very much into the way. Compare this to the cable Atari uses on their mouses ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ While on this subject, WHO OUT THERE can give us a review of the NEW CORDLESS PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS MOUSE??? I was on the verge of getting a boing mouse and read about it. Also heard that it is at least as responsive as the boing mouse, w/a real sleek look and NO CORD. The suggested list when i called was $129, but it is selling much cheaper. >-- >Lars Soltau bang: <insert ridiculously long path here> BIX: --no bucks-- > smart: space@ncc1701.stgt.sub.org ___ _ ---UUCP:uunet!unhd!lcc770--------/ //--------------------------| |-------- | ____ ___ / // /\ /\ /\ | /--\ /\ | | |\ | | | |\ | | \ / \ \\ / // /--\/ V \ || __ /--\ V | | | |__| | \| |__ | \ \\/ // / \ \| \__| / \ o | | | \ / // | | |---------------------------\_//--------------------BITNET:l_cote@unhh---| | \__DISCLAIMER:_Of_course_expressed_opinions_are_mine_all_mine____________\|
Sullivan@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (05/08/90)
>>I too prefer that direction of movement be relative to the orientation of >>the mouse and not the pad. But that doesn't mean you can't use optical mice. >>You should try out a Xerox workstation sometime. They have optical mice, but >>they don't have the undesirable property you describe. > >straight up with respect to the pad (and the orthogonal system your desk or >table is likely to be), the pointer *still* moves only vertically. >How can this be an undesirable property? I don't understand that at all! >I mean, it has to be much easier to have an intuitive feeling in your head for >the orthogonal system your desk (and pad) is than feeling a rotation of the >mouse in your hand 5 or 10 degrees (without looking at the mouse). > On the contrary, it is much more intuitive to *feel* the mouse directly under your hand and move it forward relative to your own coordinates than it is to look down at the mouse pad and figure out which direction is forwards and which is sideways. If you accidentally turn the mouse 10 or 15 degrees the cursor will start moving diagonally on the screen when you move it forward. I mean it *has* to be much easier to have an intuitive feeling in your hand... Really this is just a matter of preference. Let's leave it that way. I say tomAto, you say tomAHto.... -Sullivan Segall _________________________________________________________________ /V\ Sullivan was the first to learn how to jump without moving. ' Is it not proper that the student should surpass the teacher? To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" -Sullivan _________________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Sullivan or Sullivan@cup.portal.com
dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave Schaumann) (05/08/90)
In article <1990May7.220610.247@uunet!unhd>, lcc770@uunet!unhd (Layton C Cote) writes:
<While on this subject, WHO OUT THERE can give us a review of the NEW CORDLESS
< PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS MOUSE??? I was on the verge of getting a boing
< mouse and read about it. Also heard that it is at least as responsive
< as the boing mouse, w/a real sleek look and NO CORD. The suggested list
< when i called was $129, but it is selling much cheaper.
Practical Solutions is right here in Tucson :) And they came to our user's
group a few months back to demonstrate their optical mouse. It works very
nice. I had a chance to try it myself, but I'm by no means as picky as others
who've posted on this thread...
This is what was reported in our newsletter:
William from Practical Solutions gave a demo of their new Cordless
Mouse for the Amiga, and also displayed their other very popular item,
the Mouse-Master.
The Cordless Mouse responded easily up to 5 feet (the limit appeared to
be more like 7 feet) away from the receiver, which plugs into the mouse
port and works at up to a 45 degree angle from the Mouse. The Mouse
runs on two AAA batteries. For normal use William recommended alkaline
batteries, for an approximate lifetime of 3-4 weeks, for more intensive
use he suggested rechargables. To save battery wear it does turn
itself off after 10 minutes of non-use. The three-button design will
be supported by AmigaDOS 1.4 (or 2.0, whichever the case may be), and
is easy to use for both left- and right-handers. Because it has higher
resolution than a regular mouse (200 cpi and a tracking speed of over
600mm/sec), it may take a little time to get accustomed to, but the
result is a faster, smoother mouse. THe Cordless Mouse has only been
out about 4 months and early response has been overwhelming. It lists
for $129.95 and includes a one year limited warrantee and unlimited
technical support.
Obviously, this is not exactly a hard-hitting critical review, and we only had
a little while to check it out... so your milage may vary. Standard disclamers
and all that. BTW, I suppose I should mention that the only connection I have
with Practical Solutions is I happen to live in the same city in which they are
based.
<---UUCP:uunet!unhd!lcc770--------/ //--------------------------| |--------
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<| \ / // | |
<|---------------------------\_//--------------------BITNET:l_cote@unhh---| |
< \__DISCLAIMER:_Of_course_expressed_opinions_are_mine_all_mine____________\|
Dave Schaumann | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
dave@cs.arizona.edu | is no basis for a system of government!"
FidoNet: 1/300/4 | -M. Pythonsparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (05/09/90)
Has anyone seen the new cordless mouse? Neat concept but it has a few problems. I forget who makes it. But it runs on batteries, has a reciever that plugs into your mouseport and uses infrared to transmit. But it seems to have a delay between when you move the mouse and when the pointer on the screen moves. It kind of makes it feel like you have a rubber band attached to the pointer. It makes it pretty useless for drawing. -- John Sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 2400bps. Accessable via Starlink (Louisville KY) sparks@corpane.UUCP | | PH: (502) 968-DISK If you've seen one nuclear war, you've seen them all.
lshaw@walt.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (05/09/90)
In article <1990May7.220610.247@uunet!unhd> lcc770@unhd.unh.edu.UUCP (Layton C Cote) writes: >While on this subject, WHO OUT THERE can give us a review of the NEW CORDLESS > PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS MOUSE??? I was on the verge of getting a boing > mouse and read about it. Also heard that it is at least as responsive > as the boing mouse, w/a real sleek look and NO CORD. The suggested list > when i called was $129, but it is selling much cheaper. Well, I had a chance to play with one for a while. The buttons worked fine, and the mouse seemed precise and accurate, but it was definitely not as reponsive as the boing mouse (it's the optical one, right?). The only problems lie in the fact that it is indeed cordless. It works about as well as a good infrared remote control, and has the same problems. There is a little receiver thingie with a cord that you place strtegically so that the front of the mouse is pointing at it. It will work fine until it is about 50 degrees of axis. At that point, things start getting flakey. But, if you put the receiver in the right place, all will be well (unless you're one of those people that likes to turn your mouse to whatever angle you feel like at that moment). The other problem is that its not incredibly fast. If you move the pointer from the bottom of the screen to the top, it will take 1/4 to 1/2 second to get there. If you're worried about precise positioning, you will have to move to roughly where you wanna be, wait 1/4 a second for the pointer to get there, and adjust from there. In short, it makes the pointer hesitate and you might have to worry about pointing it at the receiver, but other than that, it's a great mouse. Hope I wasn't too verbose. ============================================================================ "The machine minded material man Logan Shaw desperately dreams of a brand new sedan. lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Wlll he expect long lasting gain ======================== from a toy that will race then rust in the rain?" - elim Hall, Things Break
nfs1675@dsacg3.dsac.dla.mil ( Michael S Figg) (05/09/90)
In article <1495@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca>, lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: > In <898@tau.sm.luth.se>, d88-mbe@sm.luth.se (Michael Bergman) writes: > > > >Why do so many people prefer that pointer movement is relative to the > >orentation of the mouse and not he pad? I have never used an optical mouse, although I've optically looked at mechanical mice, so I'm just guessing. It seems like an optical mouse, having an orientation relative to the pad would require the user to know the orientation of his hand, whereas with a mechanical mouse movement is relative to where the mouse is. If you want to move the pointer to the right you have to move your hand to the right. With an optical mouse before moving right you have to figure which direction you are pointed now. It's like driving a car. If you want to turn right you just turn the wheel clockwise but if you want to go west then you have to realize which direction you're going now and then calculate an offset. > Why do so many people like the taste of chocolate more than cucumbers? I think > the clean, snappy taste of cucumber is so much more refreshing than the > cloying, sickly sweetness of chocolate. :-) > I don't like cucumbers. I have to think about why I'm eating them while with chocolate, I know before hand that I like it. Turpentine has a clean, snappy taste, or so I've been told. > -larry Mike, -- NHL Playoffs | Michael Figg DSAC-FSD Chicago 5, Edmonton 1 | DLA Systems Automation Center (Series tied 2-1) - Columbus Dispatch | Columbus, Ohio | mfigg@dsac.dla.mil CIS:73777,360