guineau@wjg.enet.dec.com (05/07/90)
Subject says it all... --- W. John Guineau guineau@wjg.enet.dec.com Digital Equipment Corporation Marlboro MA. 01752
gdunlap@csuchico.edu (Gregory L. Dunlap) (05/08/90)
I've heard that programs (such as NoClick) which stop the clicking of the drives (by stepping the heads in the negative direction from track 0 instead of stepping them between tracks 0 and 1) may damage drives with which this trick doesn't work (such as the A1010). This may be why Commodore left the clicking in. ___________________________________________________________________________ | . _________ . _____ . | |.. / ______/\ . . / _ \ |Greg Dunlap, CSUChico ///| | / /\_____\/ . / /\\ \ .|Email: gdunlap@cscihp.csuchico.edu /// | | / / /. .____ . / / /.\ \ |Disclaimer: Who the hell cares? \\\/// | |/ / /. / _/\ / / /. / /\|Obligatory Quote: \XX/ | |\ \/____/ /\_/ ./ /____/ / /| "Intuition, however illogical, is | |.\________/ /.. /__________/ /.| recognized as a command perogative." | | .\_______\/. .\__________\/ .| -- Kirk, "Obsession", stardate 3620.7 | |___________________________________________________________________________|
aduncan@rhea.trl.oz.au (Allan Duncan) (05/08/90)
From article <11271@shlump.nac.dec.com>, by guineau@wjg.enet.dec.com: > Subject says it all... > I believe that it _does_ supress the click on the right hardware - noclick doesn't work on them all either - my 1000 internal clicks, while the external doesn't. Allan Duncan ACSnet a.duncan@trl.oz ARPA a.duncan%trl.oz.au@uunet.uu.net UUCP {uunet,hplabs,ukc}!munnari!trl.oz.au!a.duncan Telecom Research Labs, PO Box 249, Clayton, Victoria, 3168, Australia.
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (05/08/90)
{comp.sys.amiga}
{Re: AmigaOS 2.0 still clicks the floppies!}
guineau@wjg.enet.dec.com in <11271@shlump.nac.dec.com> writes:
"Subject says it all..."
Re: clicking floppy drives with AmigaOS 2.0
You're kidding, right? If not, then what kind of crap floppy drives ARE
being used that have that problem?
And ......
gdunlap@csuchico.edu (Gregory L. Dunlap) in <1990May07.193940.857@csuchico.edu>
writes:
I've heard that programs (such as NoClick) which stop the clicking of
the drives (by stepping the heads in the negative direction from track
0 instead of stepping them between tracks 0 and 1) may damage drives
with which this trick doesn't work (such as the A1010). This may be
why Commodore left the clicking in.
Wrong. ALL my floppy drives are A1010 and they're nearly 5 years old now and
work just fine with NoKlickStart. These drives probably "see" over a thousand
floppies a month, and NOT ONE PROBLEM since 1985; the systems would be unusable
without NoKlickStart (even with my bad hearing :-)
The question I have is: WHAT provision IS there for NoClick (sic) to be used
with AmigaOS 2.0?
The original NoKlickStart(s) patch the Kickstart disk of an A1000 system (as
for both the 1.2 and 1.3 versions of the OS.
I'll have to check my dealer's A3000 more carefully to see if I can hear any
such noise. If it exists, then my next system may just be an HP-9000 instead
of an A3000. Consider. From the HP 1990 Catalog, the HP9000-340 is a
68030/68882 running HPUX, comes with 19" monitor, etc etc and is the same
price as a comparably-equipped A3000 (though WITHOUT the stereo sound, though
WITH the 1024x768 color graphics board with graphics hardware support and
scan converter for high-speed vectors, circles and polygons, 6 color planes
for 64 colors). An additional hardware graphics card with hardware RADIOSITY
support adds only another $2K or so and is known as the 3D-TurboSRX card.
HP's prices (and the alleged new Sun machine's prices) are dangerously close
to that of the A3000. I, for one, will NOT tolerate a system with clicking
disk drives (as much as I like the Amiga).
Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]riley@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Daniel S. Riley) (05/08/90)
In article <29725@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >gdunlap@csuchico.edu (Gregory L. Dunlap) in <1990May07.193940.857@csuchico.edu> >writes: > I've heard that programs (such as NoClick) which stop the clicking of > the drives (by stepping the heads in the negative direction from track > 0 instead of stepping them between tracks 0 and 1) may damage drives > with which this trick doesn't work (such as the A1010). This may be > why Commodore left the clicking in. >Wrong. Not all A1010 drives are the same model, or even the same manufacturer. I've got a five year old A1000 on my desk, and NoKlick works fine with the external drive, but makes all sorts of evil sounds with the internal drive. Change the original quote to "some A1010s", and I believe it is substantially correct. -Dan Riley (riley@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu, cornell!batcomputer!riley) -Wilson Lab, Cornell University
jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org (John Meissen) (05/09/90)
In article <29725@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >to that of the A3000. I, for one, will NOT tolerate a system with clicking >disk drives (as much as I like the Amiga). There's a real simple solution to the clicking-drive problem. Put a disk in the stupid thing. Honest, I don't understand why this is such a big thing with people. -- John Meissen ............................... Oregon Advanced Computing Institute jmeissen@oacis.org (Internet) | "That's the remarkable thing about life; ..!sequent!oacis!jmeissen (UUCP) | things are never so bad that they can't jmeissen (BIX) | get worse." - Calvin & Hobbes
TCampbell@cup.portal.com (Thomas W Campbell) (05/09/90)
I don't know if Commodore is officially 'supporting' the use of NoClick, but tonight at an A3000 demo given by a factory rep, the rep said that he uses NoClick to silence the drive. He said that the reason it wasn't included was because not all drives can be silenced by NoClick. (Commodore probably wants to cover their tail by not including software that works with some "stock" hardware, but not other "stock" hardware. TCampbell@cup.portal.com
hopp@stolaf..stolaf.edu (Eric D. Hopp) (05/09/90)
Check this, but I think this is right. 3.5 drives have a neat feature in that they signal a disk change. This is how the Amiga knows when a disk is inserted. Unfortunately, they only signal the disk change when the heads are stepped to a different track. Hence the click- click-click-click from Amiga drives. The trackdisk.device is moving the heads back and forth between two tracks, so that it will get the disk-inserted signal. -eric hopp hopp@stolaf.edu
tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) (05/09/90)
>In article <29725@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >>to that of the A3000. I, for one, will NOT tolerate a system with clicking >>disk drives (as much as I like the Amiga). Sheesh .. you people... I have never , EVER, even NOTICED the clicking (I just checked, it is there!) ... Then again , I don't mind the flicker much either.... Mystery Schoolboy Baffles Chemists, Predicts Australian Student Will Get High Cholesterol. ********[ Xanadu Enterprises Inc. Amiga & Unix Software Development]******** * Kenneth J. Jamieson | "Far beyond these castle walls, where the distant * * uunet!tronsbox!tron1 | harbor meets the sky, there the battles raged * * All origional text | like hell, and every dove had lost it's will * * Copr 1990 by me. | to fly......." Styx - These Castle Walls * *_____________________/ \__________________________________________________* * NONE of the opinions represented here are endorsed by either Xanadu * * Xanadu Enterpises or it's clients, AT&T Bell Labs or others. * ****[ The Romantic Encounters BBS 201-759-8450(2400) / 201-759-8568(PEP)****
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (05/09/90)
{Re: AmigaOS 2.0 still clicks the floppies!}
{comp.sys.amiga}
jmeissen@oregon.oacis.org (John Meissen) in <489@oregon.oacis.org> writes:
There's a real simple solution to the clicking-drive problem. Put a
disk in the stupid thing. Honest, I don't understand why this is such
a big thing with people.
I don't want to drag this message thread out ad infinitum, but John's proposal
is how we stopped the clicking back in 1985 BEFORE the advent of NoKlikStart.
Back then it wasn't any big deal because most Amiga purchasers were hackers
and/or the technical intelligentsia who understand these matters.
Any $4,000 computer that clicks its disk drives in the quiet of an executive's
office suite will be perceived as a piece-of-crap-toy by that executive. You
might as well tell that executive to wear ear plugs. A "REAL" computer will
NOT be intrusive.
People who write authorization to purchase thousands of computers are NOT
going to dork around with kludges and tacky solutions ... these same people
MANDATE even office memorandums to have the "look" of professionally printed
documents for (what appears to us to be) trivial concerns. No fooling; I have
to deal with my own customers who are like that, and I'm talking about the
"Fortune 1000" companies, the world's largest banks, foreign governments, etc.
Fer crissakes, I get called at home at 4am from Peru, Chile, England, France
or even from Switzerland if they find a typo in a friggin' error message
pertaining to some obscure function in any of my products.
<<QUALITY>> is the operative word. NOTHING else will suffice.
For that matter, any computer WITHOUT parity-checked-and-ECC-corrected RAM will
ALSO be perceived as a toy and won't be purchased in the first place.
Floppy drives that adhere to SONY's specs do NOT have the clicking problem;
crap $25 floppy drives DO have the problem.
The NEC FD1035 drives as used in the original A1000 and in the original A1010
abide SONY's specs (and won't click OR be damaged by the cylinder-0-outwards
step to detect a disk change). Better floppy drives use either LED-photodiode
or mechanical means to detect a "disk present" and/or assert a "disk changed"
signal and don't need a two-step-click-bang-lambada kludge.
For a computer to be perceived as "desirable", it must use reliable AND
quality components. CBM's new 1-year warranty is a GOOD sign, but clicking
disk drives are NOT. I will be checking out an A3000 after-hours at a local
dealer to verify the alleged clicking problem. If it clicks AND if there's no
simple SOFTWARE solution, then it's clear what computer I will NOT buy and
cannot recommend.
And before you even think of flaming this posting, realize that I own a lot of
CBM stock and have EVERY pecuniary and selfish reason for CBM and the Amiga to
succeed beyond our wildest dreams.
Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) (05/09/90)
In article <29754@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >{Re: AmigaOS 2.0 still clicks the floppies!} >For a computer to be perceived as "desirable", it must use reliable AND >quality components. CBM's new 1-year warranty is a GOOD sign, but clicking >disk drives are NOT. I will be checking out an A3000 after-hours at a local >dealer to verify the alleged clicking problem. If it clicks AND if there's no >simple SOFTWARE solution, then it's clear what computer I will NOT buy and >cannot recommend. The trackdisk.device supports a no click mode, on a unit by unit basis. It's in there, in other words. It's a simple matter to twiddle the bit. Maybe someday there will be a preferences editor for it :-) The reason this isn't the default is we identified a number of drives who don't have a track zero stop. (no, no names) So we put the no click capability in, but leave it to the individual to try it with his/her drives. The trackdisk unit structure for 2.0 has a number of other fields for people who enjoy abusing their drives by making them run at spec or beyond... /* *-------------------------------------------------------------------- * * public portion of the unit structure * *-------------------------------------------------------------------- */ struct TDU_PublicUnit { struct Unit tdu_Unit; /* base message port */ UWORD tdu_Comp01Track; /* track for first precomp */ UWORD tdu_Comp10Track; /* track for second precomp */ UWORD tdu_Comp11Track; /* track for third precomp */ ULONG tdu_StepDelay; /* time to wait after stepping */ ULONG tdu_SettleDelay; /* time to wait after seeking */ UBYTE tdu_RetryCnt; /* # of times to retry */ UBYTE tdu_PubFlags; /* public flags, see below */ UWORD tdu_CurrTrk; /* track the heads are over... */ /* ONLY ACCESS WHILE UNIT IS STOPPED! */ ULONG tdu_CalibrateDelay; /* time to wait after stepping */ /* during a recalibrate */ ULONG tdu_Counter; /* counter for disk changes... */ /* ONLY ACCESS WHILE UNIT IS STOPPED! */ }; /* flags for tdu_PubFlags */ #define TDPB_NOCLICK 0 #define TDPF_NOCLICK (1L << 0) >Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ] andy -- andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "Not everything worth doing is worth doing well." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
cosell@bbn.com (Bernie Cosell) (05/09/90)
gdunlap@csuchico.edu (Gregory L. Dunlap) writes: } I've heard that programs (such as NoClick) which stop the clicking of the }drives (by stepping the heads in the negative direction from track 0 instead }of stepping them between tracks 0 and 1) may damage drives with which this }trick doesn't work (such as the A1010). This may be why Commodore left the }clicking in. Well, maybe. But still it is hard to see why I have to waste the memory space for something like NoClick, and have to bother with locaing PD stuff, mucking with the system startup, figuring what to do when I get 'enhancers', etc, etc. Since (I think) even _commodore_ uses NoClick on their own amigas, why not just build it into the stock driver and have it, say, be a preferences selection to pick which way it steps the drives? /Bernie\
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/09/90)
In article <2647882e-1e6a.6comp.sys.amiga-1@tronsbox.UUCP> tron1@tronsbox.UUCP (HIM) writes: >Sheesh .. you people... > >I have never , EVER, even NOTICED the clicking (I just checked, it is >there!) ... > >Then again , I don't mind the flicker much either.... > The disk drive noise must be muffled by the sound of your A2000's fan! 8^> >Mystery Schoolboy Baffles Chemists, Predicts Australian Student Will Get High > Cholesterol. >********[ Xanadu Enterprises Inc. Amiga & Unix Software Development]******** >* Kenneth J. Jamieson | "Far beyond these castle walls, where the distant * >* uunet!tronsbox!tron1 | harbor meets the sky, there the battles raged * >* All origional text | like hell, and every dove had lost it's will * >* Copr 1990 by me. | to fly......." Styx - These Castle Walls * >*_____________________/ \__________________________________________________* >* NONE of the opinions represented here are endorsed by either Xanadu * >* Xanadu Enterpises or it's clients, AT&T Bell Labs or others. * >****[ The Romantic Encounters BBS 201-759-8450(2400) / 201-759-8568(PEP)**** > -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu "If Commodore had to market sushi they'd call it `raw cold fish'" -- The Bandito, inevitably stolen from someone else
new@udel.EDU (Darren New) (05/10/90)
In article <29750@cup.portal.com> TCampbell@cup.portal.com (Thomas W Campbell) writes: >I don't know if Commodore is officially 'supporting' the use of NoClick, but I thought that all the disks that would step to negative tracks (and thus get damaged) were on A1000s. Since KS2.0 won't run on A1000s (oficially) then I don't see why the clicking couldn't be silenced. Maybe there needs to be a preferences switch 1/2 :-) Is CBM still using (or keeping open the option to use) drives that can be damaged by the software? -- Darren
consp11@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Brett L. Kessler) (05/10/90)
Thad P Floryan writes: >Any $4,000 computer that clicks its disk drives in the quiet of an executive's >office suite will be perceived as a piece-of-crap-toy by that executive. You >might as well tell that executive to wear ear plugs. A "REAL" computer will >NOT be intrusive. >[...] ><<QUALITY>> is the operative word. NOTHING else will suffice. >[...] >For a computer to be perceived as "desirable", it must use reliable AND >quality components. CBM's new 1-year warranty is a GOOD sign, but clicking >disk drives are NOT. I will be checking out an A3000 after-hours at a local >dealer to verify the alleged clicking problem. If it clicks AND if there's no >simple SOFTWARE solution, then it's clear what computer I will NOT buy and >cannot recommend. You've got to be kidding me. If you have to go to a dealer after they're closed so you can get a perfectly silent room so you can put your ear two inches away from the drive bay to see if you can detect clicking when the drive is empty, then you're just nitpicking. The clicking is so minute that it's almost unnoticable. If you can't recommend a computer because its disk drive makes a tiny click every few seconds (and which can be suppressed _easily_ by putting a disk in the drive), then I think it's time you reevaluated what you look for in a computer. +------///-+------------------| BRETT KESSLER |------------------+-\\\------+ | /// | consp11@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu | \\\ | | \\\/// | consp11@bingvaxa.BITNET | \\\/// | | \XX/ | (PeopleLink) B.KESSLER | \XX/ | +----------+-----------------------------------------------------+----------+
jimm@amiga.UUCP (Jim Mackraz) (05/10/90)
In article <29725@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes:
) I've heard that programs (such as NoClick) which stop the clicking of
) the drives (by stepping the heads in the negative direction from track
) 0 instead of stepping them between tracks 0 and 1) may damage drives
) with which this trick doesn't work (such as the A1010). This may be
) why Commodore left the clicking in.
)
)Wrong. ALL my floppy drives are A1010 and they're nearly 5 years old now and
)work just fine with NoKlickStart. These drives probably "see" over a thousand
)floppies a month, and NOT ONE PROBLEM since 1985; the systems would be unusable
)without NoKlickStart (even with my bad hearing :-)
What do you mean, "Wrong"? Your dozen or so floppy drives are
representative of *all* manufacturing sources used by Commodore in the
last 5 years (even in A1010)? By the small-sample statistics it follows
that ALL drives do not have such problems?
)The question I have is: WHAT provision IS there for NoClick (sic) to be used
)with AmigaOS 2.0?
I hear there is provision to more simply write an external utility/hack,
if your hardware supports it. Trackdisk or somebody checks a public bit.
)I'll have to check my dealer's A3000 more carefully to see if I can hear any
)such noise. If it exists, then my next system may just be an HP-9000 instead
)of an A3000.
Very interesting logic from someone well-known for giving hardware advice.
"If on one machine I hear noise once, I'll be strongly inclined to change
vendors, operating systems, and software markets."
)Consider. From the HP 1990 Catalog, the HP9000-340 is a
)68030/68882 running HPUX, comes with 19" monitor, etc etc [...]
)HP's prices (and the alleged new Sun machine's prices) are dangerously close
)to that of the A3000.
You forgot software. Price out the word processor, spreadsheet, compiler,
3D modeler/renderer, or whatever you use; or do you just use the hardware?
)I, for one, will NOT tolerate a system with clicking
)disk drives (as much as I like the Amiga).
Apparently not, but the logic, math, and balance of this posting is lame.
You sound like Marc Barrett. Have a beer.
jimm
--
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