mathers@titan.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers) (05/07/90)
Why doesn't commodore come out with a joystick with more than one damned button? Games software has grown increasingly more complex since space invaders, and the amiga is fantastic for games, being originally designed for such, and yet we are still restricted by an interface designed (?) years ago. I for one am sick of good games becoming almost unplayable by having to resort to stupid let-go-of-the joystick-and press <spacebar> gymnastics. Is it possible to use one (or gasp! *2*) of the spare lines used by the mouse for use as joystick buttons? Im sure once the official commodore joystick was released, there would follow a bunch of third party products, and software developers could add the 2 or 3 lines of code neccessary to recognize the extra button(s). Stefo.
gt5784a@prism.gatech.EDU (Walter G. Reynolds (JJ)) (05/07/90)
In article <1447@trlluna.trl.oz> mathers@titan.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers) writes: >Im sure once the official commodore joystick was released, there would >follow a bunch of third party products, and software developers could >add the 2 or 3 lines of code neccessary to recognize the extra >button(s). > > > > Stefo. Whatever commodore does, I *HOPE* that they don't start making joysticks.. With the advent of the 3000, a joystick would only verify most people's suspicions that the Amiga is only a game machine... I use my Amiga for writing papers and software development.. I would like to continue to see growth in the Amiga's true usefulness. True, the Amiga was originally designed as a game machine (I've read the patent, probably most of us have), but I believe it's REAL power lies in development tools.. let's face it.. the Amiga is *FUN* to program.! :) Nothing I like more than GURU #3 and 4.. I get these all the time. -- Disclaimer: None needed... my lawyer makes more money than yours. uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gt5784a ARPA: gt5784a@prism.gatech.edu
trudel@revenge.rutgers.edu (Jonathan D.) (05/07/90)
In article <9010@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt5784a@prism.gatech.EDU (Walter G. Reynolds (JJ)) writes: > >Im sure once the official commodore joystick was released... > Whatever commodore does, I *HOPE* that they don't start making joysticks.. Yeah, really! Who'd EVER buy an Amiga Joystick...
AXTBF%ALASKA.BITNET@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu (Tim Friest - Programmer/Analyst) (05/08/90)
> From: "Walter G. Reynolds (JJ" <gt5784a@prism.gatech.edu> > > Whatever commodore does, I *HOPE* that they don't start making joysticks.. > With the advent of the 3000, a joystick would only verify most people's > suspicions that the Amiga is only a game machine... I remember reading an article that talked about the game machine image of a computer and how stupid it was. I'll paraphrase: That computer is just a game machine... What makes a good game machine? Game machines must have good graphics (lots of colors, fast animation, etc). Real computers don't need this because all people use real computers for is word processing, databases, and spread sheets. Games machines must have good sound. Real computers don't need good sound because of the above. Games machines must be fast and powerful, so the action is responsive and exciting. Real computers spend most of their time waiting for the user to type the next key in the word processor, so they don't need to be fast. Game machines must have large memory and disk space because of the large graphics and extensive maps etc. Real computers don't need so much memory because they don't have to store hundreds of pictures etc. Game machines must be inexpensive so the masses can afford them. The masses don't use real computers so they don't have to be inexpensive. Well, I'll take a game machine over a real computer any day!!!! disclaimer: My opinions are just that.
jcs@crash.cts.com (John Schultz) (05/08/90)
With an digital joystick, you can have up to 3 buttons. Two of the buttons are on the pot lines, and take a while to change state (like the right mouse button). So you want more buttons, eh? How about analog x-y, two fire buttons and an analog throttle control? These features come with the CH Products Flight Stick, which is currently the only joystick my current project will support. You can actually have 5 fire buttons with an analog joystick, if you so desire. IBM analog joysticks are easily adapted to the Amiga and they cost $19 and up ($50 for the Flight Stick). John
mrush@csuchico.edu (Losing Peer on the Net of Life) (05/08/90)
In article <1447@trlluna.trl.oz> mathers@titan.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers) writes: >Why doesn't commodore come out with a joystick with more than one >damned button? Games software has grown increasingly more complex >since space invaders, and the amiga is fantastic for games, being >originally designed for such, and yet we are still restricted by >an interface designed (?) years ago. I for one am sick of good games >becoming almost unplayable by having to resort to stupid let-go-of-the >joystick-and press <spacebar> gymnastics. Is it possible to >use one (or gasp! *2*) of the spare lines used by the mouse for use as >joystick buttons? Here, here! I too am appalled at how developers write all their games for Single-Button Digital JoySticks. C'mon you game developers, The hardware DOES SUPPORT *TWO* FIRE BUTTONS. And there are ANALOG JOYSTICKS OUT HERE. What's REALLY agravating are games like Battle Squadron (which I think is the best game to come out on the Amiga since F-18) where in MOUSE mode it WILL check button TWO (for Nova Missle launching), but in JOYSTICK mode it DOESN'T. Aaaaargh! Did they go out of their way to do this??? -- Matt *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* % I could almost be tempted to give up % mrush@csuchico.edu % % homebrew hardware hacking... % mrush@cscihp.UUCP % *~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* This is a SCHOOL! Do you think they even CARE about MY opinions?!
gt5784a@prism.gatech.EDU (Walter G. Reynolds (JJ)) (05/08/90)
In article <18775@snow-white.udel.EDU> AXTBF%ALASKA.BITNET@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu (Tim Friest - Programmer/Analyst) writes: The stuff in >> was written by me. (I accedentally deleted my own name) >> Whatever commodore does, I *HOPE* that they don't start making joysticks.. >> With the advent of the 3000, a joystick would only verify most people's >> suspicions that the Amiga is only a game machine... > >I remember reading an article that talked about the game machine image of a >computer and how stupid it was. Although it may be stupid (I agree with you on this), it is hard to have people take a computer seriously if thus labeled(sp?). >That computer is just a game machine... What makes a good game machine? > >Game machines must have good graphics (lots of colors, fast animation, etc). >Real computers don't need this because all people use real computers for is >word processing, databases, and spread sheets. This is not necessarily true anymore, many computers need good graphics for desktop publishing, CAD, drawing graphs, and, of course, multimedia. The amiga does most of these quite well. So, once again I state, the amiga should not be relabeled a "game machine". The implication is that no serious software is written for it. >Games machines must have good sound. Real computers don't need good sound >because of the above. Again, not true. Many people use the Mac, Atari ST, and the Amiga for professional sound. A standard atari ST is the best of the three because it comes with a built-in midi port. Ever hear of a musician using a Sega Genesis with his band? Me neither.. but I *HAVE* heard of a Mac being used as such. >Games machines must be fast and powerful, so the action is responsive and >exciting. Real computers spend most of their time waiting for the user to type >the next key in the word processor, so they don't need to be fast. I find it hard to believe that you even used this argument. The 386 machines are not game machines, but they leave the Amiga (stock A1000, A500, A2000) standing in the dust. Computers these days need to be fast so that a user will not spend all day waiting for intensive database operations. I used to work for a company where we billed over 10000 accounts monthly on AT's and 386's. Speed was important to us. I agree that at one time game machines were more powerful, but now, "real computers" are so fast that game authors need to put delays in their code. >Game machines must have large memory and disk space because of the large >graphics and extensive maps etc. Real computers don't need so much memory >because they don't have to store hundreds of pictures etc. Again, I disagree. REAL computers (used in business) need massive amounts of storage. Game machines need storage, but not as much. Also, in game machines, the needed storage usually doesn't change. In business, data files have the tendency to expand, and 40 users on a network can take up space very quickly. Also, if this is so true, why does IBM have 1.44 meg floppy drives while the amiga is still behind at 880k? >Game machines must be inexpensive so the masses can afford them. The masses >don't use real computers so they don't have to be inexpensive. I concede that game machines must be inexpensive. However, this is not necessarily true of "real computers". I can pick up an XT for 400$ easy; and that's overpriced. >Well, I'll take a game machine over a real computer any day!!!! Okay. >disclaimer: My opinions are just that. Mine too. Once again I state, although I love to play games on my amiga, that is not my primary purpose for owning it. I hope that the Amiga 3000 does not get stuck with the image of a game machine. (BUT, if it did, can you imagine a game written for the 68030 running at 25 MHZ? Tetris would be a nightmare. Hope I don't have to delete it.. :) (here's stating that Commodore shouldn't make joysticks) -- Disclaimer: None needed... my lawyer makes more money than yours. uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gt5784a ARPA: gt5784a@prism.gatech.edu
vilkas@ultima.cs.uts.oz (Peter Sumskas) (05/08/90)
To clarify things for those who are talking about joysticks....the standard joystick interface on the amiga supports THREE buttons, and as yet there is only one joystick I know of which can use two of them... The Starcursor (An Australian made stick) which has three buttons, two of which can be read thought the amiga...the third button is wired to the unused pin of the connector...although that wouldnt be too hard to fix. If you want to use the other button, it is the same pin as the "middle" mouse button which is supported in hardware but not in software. Aside from this, the StarCursor is by far the best joystick in existence.
cstxqbt@warwick.ac.uk (CrisP of Truth and Justice) (05/08/90)
My half-brother has a a pile of junk the makers refer to as a "Sega Master System". This uses two button controlers. Using these on my Amiga I found that R-type will use the extra button insted of having to do the space bar juggle. The digital joystics use the same lines for the button as the mice. So as with mice you could build a joystick with three buttons. But commodore have yet to build a decent joystick. - CrisP.
jhc00614@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (05/08/90)
Wait, I'm not sure, but remembering the pin outs on the Amiga, in
digital mode, I remember there being room for only 1 button, while in
analog or mouse mode, there being room for 3 buttons.
Can someone set me straight or am I misreading the schematics?
Later, Jasonefinley%albion.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Elliott Finley) (05/08/90)
In article <1990May07.224940.1915@csuchico.edu> mrush@cscihp.UUCP writes: >In article <1447@trlluna.trl.oz> mathers@titan.trl.oz.au (Steven Mathers) writes: >>Why doesn't commodore come out with a joystick with more than one >>damned button? Games software has grown increasingly more complex >DOES SUPPORT *TWO* FIRE BUTTONS. And there are ANALOG JOYSTICKS OUT HERE. > -- Matt Actually, the hardware reference manual shows support for THREE buttons, not to say that you couldn't do even more than that.
jimb@faatcrl.UUCP (Jim Burwell) (05/09/90)
mrush@csuchico.edu (Losing Peer on the Net of Life) writes: > Here, here! I too am appalled at how developers write all their games >for Single-Button Digital JoySticks. C'mon you game developers, The hardware >DOES SUPPORT *TWO* FIRE BUTTONS. And there are ANALOG JOYSTICKS OUT HERE. > What's REALLY agravating are games like Battle Squadron (which I think >is the best game to come out on the Amiga since F-18) where in MOUSE mode it >WILL check button TWO (for Nova Missle launching), but in JOYSTICK mode it >DOESN'T. Aaaaargh! Did they go out of their way to do this??? The only game I know of which uses an analog joystick is "Air Warrior", an excelent multi-player on-line combat flight simulator on GEnie. Dunno if they use the second joystick button though. (I never bought a joystick and hooked it to the Amiga) Although I suspect they probably have it wired to release bombs. C'ya, Jim -- James S. Burwell UUCP: ...!rutgers!faatcrl!jimb Internet: jimb@faatcrl.UUCP "The Maker is the one who is part of what he makes." - The Redbird, from _The Tales of Alvin Maker_
b2wild@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (The great and wonderful Jarafan) (05/09/90)
In article <523@lily.warwick.ac.uk> cstxqbt@warwick.ac.uk (CrisP of Truth and Justice) writes: > >So as with mice you could build a joystick with three buttons. But commodore >have yet to build a decent joystick. >- CrisP. This is true, it would do Commodore good to create a decent joystick. Does anyone remember what Amiga made before computers? Those awesome little Amiga Joysticks. gorn!snozer@ssyx.ucsc.edu
jcs@crash.cts.com (John Schultz) (05/10/90)
Digital joysticks can have 3 buttons:
pin 6 (now button 1)
pin 5 (pot x)
pin 9 (pot y)
Pins 5 and 9 can be configured as button inputs by writing the
appropriate values to POTGO (see p234-235 of the Hardware Manual).
Analog joysticks can have *5* buttons, plus proportional x and y:
pin 5 (pot x)
pin 9 (pot y)
pin 3 (button 1)
pin 4 (button 2)
pin 1 (button 3) [optional]
pin 2 (button 4) [not documented nor standardized by C-A]
pin 6 (button 5) [" "]
See page 223 of the Hardware Manual for more details.
Also, the Hardware Manual states that the pots should be no more than
528k ohm. We didn't get readings of 0-255 until using 1 *MEG* ohm. To
make an IBM analog joystick work on the Amiga, at least .22 uf caps must
be placed between the pots and the ground (to get the 0-255 range).
It would appear that no one at C-A who tested the proportional controller
hardware looked at the documentation in the Hardware Manual.
Hopefully, C-A will update the documentation (if it hasn't been done
already). This may explain why developers have not used analog joysticks
in the past: they hooked up the controllers as documented and they didn't
work properly, so they didn't write analog joystick support.
We don't need Amiga specific analog joysticks, just a simple $5 adaptor
for IBM joysticks. The adaptor would also be a y connector to allow a
digital joystick or X-Specs to be hooked up at the same time (no port
unplugging/plugging).
John
John
king@motcid.UUCP (Steven King) (05/10/90)
In article <523@lily.warwick.ac.uk> cstxqbt@warwick.ac.uk (CrisP of Truth and Justice) writes: >So as with mice you could build a joystick with three buttons. But commodore >have yet to build a decent joystick. I don't suppose we can convince Commodore into manufacturing the old Amiga Pow'r Stick from way back in the days before the Amiga was more than a gleam in =RJ='s eye? THAT's the joystick of choice! Slap a second button on there and you'd really have something to write home about! Speaking of which, anyone got one they'd be willing to part with for a reasonable sum? :-) -- ---------------------------------------------------+--------------------------- There has never been an unexpectedly short | Steve King (708) 991-8056 debugging period in the history of computers. | ...uunet!motcid!king (Steven Levy, "Hackers") | ...ddsw1!palnet!stevek