papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (05/25/90)
In article <265c08e3-2081.2comp.sys.amiga-1@tronsbox.UUCP> dfrancis@tronsbox.UUCP (Dennis Francis Heffernan) writes: > RE Steve Jackson and the Legion of Doom > The "phone company software" allegedly stolen was a six page text >file on administrative terms used in the 911 network. It has nothing to do >with computer operations, is easily one of the most boring pieces you'll ever >find, and I really don't see how a) it could be worth $80,000 and b) someone >should go to jail for 30 years for having it. You fail to mention that part of the stolen property were credit card numbers used for purchases. I wonder if you'd feel different if YOUR credit card number were stolen. As far as I am concerned, stealing credit card numbers should be treated as any other felony of that type. Crime is crime, no matter what color. > My sister's part of the same "hacker underground" as these people... You're in a tough spot for sure to judge. -- Marco -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bvk@hhb.UUCP (Brett Kuehner) (05/26/90)
tucker@tahoe.unr.edu (Aaron Tucker) writes: >But Jackson was also linked to "Legion of Doom" a hacker group which reportedly >stole a phone company program, and posted it on a local BBS. Jackson had some >technical help from the Legion of Doom. >att The "phone company program" was a six page document describing administration of the Bell E911 system. Bell South claims the document is worth $79,449. According to a review in '2600' magazine, the document says nothing that would allow a "hacker" to gain access to a 911 system. Also, I've heard that an employee of Steve Jackson Games was a (former?) member of the "Legion of Doom", but I don't know of any link beyond that. Brett -- Brett Kuehner, Racal-Redac, Mawah, NJ ...!princeton!hhb!bvk bvk%hhb@princeton.EDU
dfrancis@tronsbox.UUCP (Dennis Francis Heffernan) (05/26/90)
|You fail to mention that part of the stolen property were credit card |numbers used for purchases. I wonder if you'd feel different if YOUR |credit card number were stolen. As far as I am concerned, stealing |credit card numbers should be treated as any other felony of that |type. Crime is crime, no matter what color. I just dug up my copy of the indictment- twice, it alleges that the Legion of Doom was a "group involved in the theft of credit information" and so on. It DOESN'T charge the defendents with credit fraud/theft...just with being members of the LoD. And the aforementioned theft of the 911 docs. In other words, it doesn't charge anyone with any specific instances of credit theft. That's not what got them busted. |> My sister's part of the same "hacker underground" as these people... | |You're in a tough spot for sure to judge. Well, I keep expecting the Stosstruppen to come take my Amiga away- she uses it to supply her readers with disks full of back issues of her activist newsletter in Amiga, MS-DOS and ST formats, and if they bust her for having an activist BBS (on her C-64...) they're going to take everything in the house with a microprocessor in it. You're out of line if you're casting aspersions on my objectivity for daring to hear what the other side has to say. Dennis Francis Heffernan | "The condition upon which God dfrancis@tronsbox | has given liberty to man ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis | is eternal vigilance." | -John Philpot Curran
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (05/26/90)
In article <265e0c9d-2081.5comp.sys.amiga-1@tronsbox.UUCP> dfrancis@tronsbox.UUCP (Dennis Francis Heffernan) writes: >|> My sister's part of the same "hacker underground" as these people... >| >[I said:] >|You're in a tough spot for sure to judge. > You're out of line if you're casting aspersions on my objectivity for >daring to hear what the other side has to say. That's not what I meant. Anybody in your position would have a rough time making ANY kind of public statement. I found your statements quite "even-handed", comsidering what I would have expected from ANYBODY so personally involved. I apologize if the phrase lead you to believe otherwise. -- Marco -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
pete@nyet.UUCP (Pete Hardie) (05/28/90)
In article <517@hhb.UUCP> bvk@hhb.UUCP (Brett Kuehner) writes: >The Secret Service seems to be out of control in this "roundup". Among >other things, they raided Steve Jackson Games (makers of NON-computer >role playing games such as GURPS, Car Wars, and Illuminati) on March 1st. The >Secret Service confiscated their computers, searched their warehouse, >and took all materials (printed and electronic) relating to >"GURPS: Cyberpunk", a book of rules for extending the GURPS universe >to include Neuromancer-type hacking. The Secret Service gave no >explanation, except that this was "part of an ongoing investigation". From things posted on the net, an employee of SJG was in some way associated with the group that broke into the AT&T 911 system somewhere and stole its source code. The connection was tenous at best, from what I've seen posted, but there *was* some logic behind it. Apparently, the SS took the machine the SJG-BBS was on, ssuspecting it of being one of the 'underground' phreakers BBSs, along with several other computers and files. -- Pete Hardie mail: ...!emory!stiatl!slammer!nyet!pete "Well, Darkness has a hunger that's insatiable, And Lightness has a call that's hard to hear" -- Indigo Girls
oliver@tlab1.cs.unc.edu (Bill Oliver) (05/29/90)
In article <24887@usc.edu> papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) writes: >In article <265c08e3-2081.2comp.sys.amiga-1@tronsbox.UUCP> dfrancis@tronsbox.UUCP (Dennis Francis Heffernan) writes: >> RE Steve Jackson and the Legion of Doom > >> The "phone company software" allegedly stolen was a six page text >>file on administrative terms used in the 911 network. It has nothing to do >>with computer operations, is easily one of the most boring pieces you'll ever >>find, and I really don't see how a) it could be worth $80,000 and b) someone >>should go to jail for 30 years for having it. > >You fail to mention that part of the stolen property were credit card >numbers used for purchases. I wonder if you'd feel different if YOUR >credit card number were stolen. As far as I am concerned, stealing >credit card numbers should be treated as any other felony of that >type. Crime is crime, no matter what color. > Oh, I doubt that you really believe that "crime is crime, no matter what color." Do you really equate the political crimes of the pro-democracy demonstrators (and they *were* crimes) with serial murder? Do you really think that the state is justified in whatever it decides to do as long as it calls the victim a criminal? I don't think that folk are saying that what these folk might have done (if they are, in fact, found to be guilty of anything at all) is laudable. What they are saying is that one shouldn't get away from the idea that the punishment should fit the crime. Nor should the pain inflicted by the investigation be used as a punishment. The Steve Jackson thing is a perfect case in point. What, exactly, is Jackson geing punished for? After all, having his property seized, having his business disrupted, and having his records searched are non-trivial things, and constitute a kind of punishment in and of themselves. There was a restauranteur here in NC who hired a person to do dishwashing. The police arrested the man for possession of marijuana, and under the RICO statutes, seized the employer's business and assets. The man could not even hire a lawyer to try to get his business back. Over a year later, the DEA decided that the fellow had nothing at all to do with any crime, and released the property. Unfortunately, with no income, the man had been unable to pay his mortage or loans, and had declared bankruptcy. He lost his business, his home, his savings, his reputation, and his credit. He was an innocent man completely ruined by the DEA for no good reason. The DEA was within the law. After all, there was a dishwasher there who was a user of that evil, albeit harmless, weed marijuana. The feds, be they the DEA, SS, ATF, or IRS, are well known for having little concern for who they hurt when they after someone. But that's OK, I suppose; crime is crime, no matter what color. I suppose it also doesn't matter who gets hurt or how much, as long as "law and order" prevail. It doesn't matter how draconian the law, or how repressive the order. >> My sister's part of the same "hacker underground" as these people... > >You're in a tough spot for sure to judge. > Cheap shot. Bill Oliver