stevem@hal.CSS.GOV (Steve Masters) (06/28/90)
With all of the articles in magazines and the net about C='s CDTV product, I am still unclear about one important point: Currently there are many CD-ROM databases available. As I write this I am looking at an ad for a CD-ROM containing climate information for the US and the world. The ad says there is 250K pages (and many decades) of data on this CD-ROM. The CD-ROM comes with access software for the IBM-PC :( So, will the new C= product (or a subset of it) allow me to buy and use this (and other available data bases) on my A-2500? Or, will the CD-ROMs the CDTV product uses be in ..yet another.. format that makes existing databases inaccessible to my Amiga? Do I need to make my Amiga look like an IBM to use existing (or soon-to-be-available [which means in six to twelve months] ) CD-ROM readers? Mail or net responses welcome..... Steve Masters stevem@hal.CSS.GOV ENSCO, Inc. Melbourne, FL 32940 407 254 4122
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (06/30/90)
In-Reply-To: message from stevem@hal.CSS.GOV That, and many of the other databases on CD-ROM, are more than likely MS-DOS format...let's get real here, it's just like software. You can't just put in an MS-DOS 3.5" disk in an Amiga and have it work, just like you won't be able to use their CDs. Sean //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | " Fanatics have their INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | dreams, wherewith they | weave a paradise for RealWorld: Sean Cunningham | a sect. " Voice: (512) 994-1602 PLINK: ce3k* | -Keats | Call C.B.A.U.G. BBS (512) 883-8351 w/SkyPix | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
stevem@hal.CSS.GOV (Steve Masters) (06/30/90)
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from stevem@hal.CSS.GOV > >That, and many of the other databases on CD-ROM, are more than likely MS-DOS >format...let's get real here, it's just like software. > >You can't just put in an MS-DOS 3.5" disk in an Amiga and have it work, just >like you won't be able to use their CDs. > I'm not talking about software (binary) compatibility, but the ability to read DATA. In fact, my Amiga CAN read IBM MS-DOS 3.5" disks by using Cross-Dos. I guess what I am asking for is not that C= necessarily use the existing formats for their products, but I can use their hardware and software to read the large number of CD-ROMs already out there and the many more appearing all of the time. As a scientist excited about the potential of CD-ROMs storage capacity combined with the power of my Amiga, I hope C= will not force me to make my Amiga look like an IBM-PC to take advantage of this resource. So, my question again is: my IBM/Mac friends can already use these powerful tools...when will I be able to?? Steve Masters stevem@hal.CSS.GOV Ensco, Inc. Melbourne, FL 32940 (407) 254 4122
ruslan@uncecs.edu (Robin C. LaPasha) (07/01/90)
Train of the topic - Can the new Amiga CDTV use currently existing CD ROMs, in terms of accessing their data? In article <441@hal.CSS.GOV>, stevem@hal.CSS.GOV (Steve Masters) writes: > seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: > > >In-Reply-To: message from stevem@hal.CSS.GOV > > > >That, and many of the other databases on CD-ROM, are more than likely MS-DOS > >format...let's get real here, it's just like software. > > > >You can't just put in an MS-DOS 3.5" disk in an Amiga and have it work, just > >like you won't be able to use their CDs. > > > I'm not talking about software (binary) compatibility, but the ability > to read DATA. In fact, my Amiga CAN read IBM MS-DOS 3.5" disks by using > Cross-Dos. I guess what I am asking for is not that C= necessarily use > the existing formats for their products, but I can use their hardware > and software to read the large number of CD-ROMs already out there and > the many more appearing all of the time. As a scientist excited about > the potential of CD-ROMs storage capacity combined with the power of > my Amiga, I hope C= will not force me to make my Amiga look like an > IBM-PC to take advantage of this resource. > First, we're talking about the Amiga already, when the only "announced" CD ROM product is the CDTV. So, although we all expect a CD ROM drive for the Amiga soon, it's not out yet. Second, in terms of reading CD ROMs, there are several variables involved. A) What is the format of the Mac or PC CD ROM? If it is ISO 9660, then it should be readable by the CDTV. If it's just a straight Mac or PC data format, well, it's not transferrable anyways. B) Are there images as well as numbers and ASCII text? Well, if it's a Mac-specific or PC-specific format, then any attempts at conversion will slow things down (and possibly look bizarre too.) (If it's not anybody's particular format, then I guess we'll all slow down equally for conversion ;^).) C) Do you need particular software to access the data? Or do you want to use pre-developed software? Can you write the software yourself? D) All of this assumes that the CD ROM hooks being developed for CDTV will eventually be brought into the Amiga's OS... E) Well sure the CDTV can play audio CDs. And those goofy ones with the pictures, too. Why would audio CDs have any compatibility problems? The CD ROM issue now seems to be that graphics are still an item in flux. (CD ROM XA has been introduced, but I don't know if it's being adopted.) But data? ISO 9660 (which _is_ or is somehow related to "High Sierra") seems to be a standard that's being used, and it can be read by CDTV. The real "can we read them" tests will be when we get the hooks in the OS to read the drives. Then we can hope that the hooks will be clever enough that software to read the disks will soon come out (one vote here for good AmigaVision hooks! Rah!) -- Robin LaPasha |Keeper of the Amiga ruslan@ecsvax.uncecs.edu |Hypermedia Mailing List
mk59200@metso.tut.fi (Kolkka Markku Olavi) (07/02/90)
In article <1990Jul1.150251.891@uncecs.edu> ruslan@uncecs.edu (Robin C. LaPasha) writes: >The real "can we read them" tests will be when we get the >hooks in the OS to read the drives. Then we can hope that >the hooks will be clever enough that software to read the >disks will soon come out (one vote here for good AmigaVision >hooks! Rah!) What "hooks" do you mean? There is the SCSI-direct protocol to send arbitrary SCSI commands, and the SCSI command set for CD-ROMs is defined in the SCSI-II draft standard. And the Amiga has installable file systems. These two provide all the hooks necessary to use CD-ROMs, all you need is a ISO-9660 compatible filing system that sends commands using any compatible SCSI adapter. -- Markku Kolkka mk59200@tut.fi
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (07/02/90)
In article <441@hal.CSS.GOV> stevem@hal.CSS.GOV (Steve Masters) writes: >seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >>In-Reply-To: message from stevem@hal.CSS.GOV >>You can't just put in an MS-DOS 3.5" disk in an Amiga and have it work, just >>like you won't be able to use their CDs. >> >I'm not talking about software (binary) compatibility, but the ability >to read DATA. In fact, my Amiga CAN read IBM MS-DOS 3.5" disks by using >Cross-Dos. I guess what I am asking for is not that C= necessarily use >the existing formats for their products, but I can use their hardware >and software to read the large number of CD-ROMs already out there and >the many more appearing all of the time. Sorry, I fear you miss one point. On those CD-ROMs you don't get pure data, but database files together with database software to search through this data. And every CD-ROM has it's own database organisation and retrieval software. There is no widespread standard yet. In the moment there are CD-ROMs with PC and Mac software on them. We would need them doing a port of their software to the Amiga. But I think Commodore USA is just about this and is trying hard. I agree that it would be a minor effort to access the PC-like filesystem of such a CD-ROM disk, in fact that should be manageable. But as I said, this is not already the whole job. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ rutgers!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
chymes@fribourg.csmil.umich.edu (Charles Hymes) (07/02/90)
In article <3347@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from stevem@hal.CSS.GOV > > >That, and many of the other databases on CD-ROM, are more than likely MS-DOS >format...let's get real here, it's just like software. > >You can't just put in an MS-DOS 3.5" disk in an Amiga and have it work, just >like you won't be able to use their CDs. > >Sean According to the Dude who was speaking at the CDTV seminar at AmiExbo in Chicago, ( I dont know his name be he wrote Maxiplan and is a major CDTV developer) CDTV will support the hundreds of existing CD Roms already produced for existing platforms, including the IBM PC. Thats what he said, and it makes sense. All that it takes to use thhose existing databases is to know the format that they are stored on. And, by the way, you CAN just put MS DOS data disks into an Amiga and use them, I do it all the time. Sence I have a filesystem that knows the format of MSDOS disks mounted, I can read and write MS-DOS disks just as I can AmigaDos disks. It will be the same for CD rom. Charlweed Hymerfan.
arxt@midway.uchicago.edu (patrick palmer) (07/03/90)
In article <249@cbmger.UUCP> peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >In article <441@hal.CSS.GOV> stevem@hal.CSS.GOV (Steve Masters) writes: >>seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >>>In-Reply-To: message from stevem@hal.CSS.GOV >>>You can't just put in an MS-DOS 3.5" disk in an Amiga and have it work, just >>I'm not talking about software (binary) compatibility, but the ability >>to read DATA. In fact, my Amiga CAN read IBM MS-DOS 3.5" disks by using >Sorry, I fear you miss one point. On those CD-ROMs you don't get pure >data, but database files together with database software to search (Sorry to chop so much above, but our mailer demands I do that or write more.) NASA for one is putting out more and more databases on CD-ROM. They are free, and NASA distributes free software to access them. The ones I have seen are for Mac's. So, you can already get interesting and useful CD-ROM's and free software. To use on an Amiga, you just need to port the software, and BE ABLE TO READ THE CD-ROM DISKS. Pat Palmer (email: reply or ppalmer@oddjob.uchicago.edu)
csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Claus Brod ) (07/03/90)
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >I agree that it would be a minor effort to access the PC-like filesystem >of such a CD-ROM disk, in fact that should be manageable. But as I said, >this is not already the whole job. Most CDs have an ISO standard file system on them. This way, you can read files and directories and whatever on any kind of computer. There are ISO drivers for the ST, PC and Mac PC CD-ROM drives. You are right, however, in pointing out that the contents of the files on those CDs are completely application-dependent. But it's very easy to read standard ASCII files from a CD-ROM. By the way: The ISO standard file system for CD-ROMs is not "PC-like". It has elements of VMS, Unix and PC file systems, but is incompatible with anyone of these. >-- >Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to >Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ rutgers!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2, Things. Take. Time. D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, West Germany (Piet Hein) csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de ----------------------------------------------------------------------
david@twg.com (David S. Herron) (07/09/90)
In article <3347@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from stevem@hal.CSS.GOV >That, and many of the other databases on CD-ROM, are more than likely MS-DOS >format...let's get real here, it's just like software. Yes, but.. At this point in time CD-ROM has been in the IBM & Mac marketplaces for 2-3 years while the Amiga market hasn't had 'em. That makes those products enough of a standard such that the Amiga market must deal with it in some way ... Steve mentioned the climatalogical data. I'm interested in the OED. (er.. Oxford English Dictionary .. ) The people providing either one of those are providing to a limited audience and assumably have little reason to arrange something to satisfy a few weirdos who insist on using good computers. At any rate, the _Amazing_Amiga_ article mentioned an ISO spec for the format on the disk. Since I don't know ISO numbers (other than the ones for electronic mail) I don't know if that ISO number refers to the standard CD-ROM format or not. -- <- David Herron, an MMDF weenie, <david@twg.com> <- Formerly: David Herron -- NonResident E-Mail Hack <david@ms.uky.edu> <- <- Sign me up for one "I survived Jaka's Story" T-shirt!