jones@uv4.eglin.af.mil (Calvin Jones, III) (07/03/90)
Alex Liu <aliu@aludra.usc.edu> writes: > This does not pertain to the subject, but I was wondering how you people > have the guts to sell your stuff over long distance. I mean say if you > live in Pasadena, California, and post your A2630 for sale on USENET. > Joe Blow from Pasadena, Texas see's it and wants to buy it. How do you > guys do the transaction? Do you send your A2630 and Joe Blow send his > check at the same time, Federal Express? Geez man, what if at the > last minute, Joe Blow didn't send his check and received your card and > cross the border into another country? First, contrary to what one might assume by reading all the Piracy netmail, I've found that there are a lot of honest people out there. In my case, I purchased a system from an individual in PA (I live in FL). I began by calling him on the phone and finalizing the deal. Then I wrote a personal check for the system and mailed it along with a letter listing what I expected to receive from the individual. The check was annotated to reflect what I was buying, as well. I did give the individual instructions on checking the balance in my checking account so he could rest easy that the check would clear. The individual sent me all equipment and software, as promised, and even called a couple of days later to confirm delivery and ask if I had any problems setting it up and getting it to work. In a case like this we could have four possibilities: 1. My check is good and I receive the equipment. Everyone lives happily after. This is what happened in this case. 2. My check bounces after the equipment is sent to me. Now, the individual has every right to have me arrested for uttering a forged instrument, or something like that. Since I don't really want to spend any significant part of my time in court, I do try to make sure that checks I write are covered. Of course, the individual selling the equipment could have waited until the check cleared to make certain that he would get paid. 3. The individual could have cashed my check and never sent the equipment. This would put me in the position of now being able to sue for mail fraud (since I used the USMail to send the check and list of equipment). Now I doubt that the individual would want this to happen. 4. My check is no good and the individual never even had the equipment. In this case, we both deserve what we got (or didn't get <GRIN>). An alternative is to have the sender send the stuff UPS COD and require that UPS accept only CASH or a CASHIERS check. This would leave the buyer with no recourse unless he had a letter describing what was to be sent before he accepted delivery. --- Cal // Cal Jones - Internet: <Jones@UV4.Eglin.AF.Mil> \X/ BBS: 904-243-6219 1200-9600HST 340Meg, all Amiga Single Tasking? *JUST SAY NO!!!*
bryan@cs.utexas.edu (Bryan Bayerdorffer @ Wit's End) (07/05/90)
In article <23502@snow-white.udel.EDU> jones@uv4.eglin.af.mil (Calvin Jones, III) writes:
=-
=-First, contrary to what one might assume by reading all the Piracy
=-netmail, I've found that there are a lot of honest people out there. In
=-
True, I've sold several things via mail over the years, but you *can*
get hosed; it happened to me.
=-2. My check bounces after the equipment is sent to me. Now, the
=-individual has every right to have me arrested for uttering a forged
=-instrument, or something like that. Since I don't really want to spend
=-any significant part of my time in court, I do try to make sure that
=-checks I write are covered. Of course, the individual selling the
=-equipment could have waited until the check cleared to make certain that
=-he would get paid.
=-
Well, as I found out, the danger of a lawsuit won't keep a determined
miscreant from ripping you off. Consider this: In early 1988 I took advantage
of the A1000 "trade in" deal that allowed me to keep the 1000 and get an A2000
for $1000. Thereupon I offered my A1000 (plus peripherals) for sale on the net
at $950, and got a couple of offers. I took the first one and arranged
shipment. The buyer was agreeable to paying COD, but I, being cheap and
trusting, told him just to send a check so that I'd save the COD charges. I
received the check two weeks before the agreed shipping date.
Here's where I was even more stupid. Instead of making the effort to
go to the bank right away and depositing the check, I just sat on it. My
reasoning? He knows I have two weeks to clear the check, it must be good
right? In my defense I have to say that it never occurred to me that someone
would willfully withold payment for merchandise that was acceptable.
Well, that's what happened. To make a VERY long story short, after
nine months of asking, insisting, and finally demanding either my money or my
computer back, I filed a small claims action against the buyer in his home
state of Rhode Island. The defendant did not contest, so I got a judgement for
$950 (but *not* for my expenses in trying to recover). In most small claims
it's up to the plaintiff to collect, so I called up the defendant's workplace,
only to find out that he had conveniently just moved to Norfolk, VA.
Conclusions:
1. Pursuing something like this as a criminal matter won't get you far. For
$950, the cops aren't too interested.
2. If you get a civil judgement, it can still take a LONG time (years) to
collect.
I could have started the process all over again in Virginia, but I just
didn't have the time to track the scumbag down, and it had already cost me a
bunch of money anyway. It would be more difficult to find---I won't mention
names...oh what the hell, this is all factual, so I will---Richard Brooks, who
used to work for RayServ in Newport, RI, later for Radio Shack in Newport, and
was apparently last to be found working for Raytheon in either Norfolk or
Chesapeake, VA.
=-An alternative is to have the sender send the stuff UPS COD and require
=-that UPS accept only CASH or a CASHIERS check. This would leave the
=-buyer with no recourse unless he had a letter describing what was to be
=-sent before he accepted delivery.
=-
You can damn sure that I won't be carrying out any more check
transactions with people that aren't personally known to me.
The best solution is to use some reputable transfer agent. The seller
can ship the equipment to some randomly chosen lawyer close to the buyer. The
buyer then brings a certified check to the lawyers offices, checks out the
equipment, and exchanges check for equipment if it proves satisfactory. Lawyer
then forwards either check or rejected equipment to seller. Most attorneys
will probably charge $50 to $100 for this, but it's advisable for large
transactions. There are others that can act as disinterested transfer agents.
If anyone knows the whereabouts of one Richard A. Brooks, I'd
appreciate hearing fom you.saify@cbnewsl.att.com (saify.lanewala) (07/06/90)
In article <23502@snow-white.udel.EDU>, jones@uv4.eglin.af.mil (Calvin Jones, III) writes: > Alex Liu <aliu@aludra.usc.edu> writes: [ stuff deleted re: setting the scenario ] > > > check at the same time, Federal Express? Geez man, what if at the > > last minute, Joe Blow didn't send his check and received your card and > > cross the border into another country? > > First, contrary to what one might assume by reading all the Piracy > netmail, I've found that there are a lot of honest people out there. In > my case, I purchased a system from an individual in PA (I live in FL). > I began by calling him on the phone and finalizing the deal. Then I > wrote a personal check for the system and mailed it along with a letter > listing what I expected to receive from the individual. The check was [ stuff explaining process used & what possibilities existed re: getting/ losing the stuff ordered ] I recently purchased some hardware via the net. It was advertized on this newsgroup. I made an offer, it was accepted, and I sent the person a check. I had no phone contact with him, even though he made his name/ address/phone number known to me. I suppose I felt "safe" because I had seen some previous postings by him on the net, so at least he existed! In any case, I followed up a few days after mailing him the check, and found out that he had already shipped the thing out to me. When I got home from work, the package was there! I had some minor difficulty installing the hardware (not his problem), but soon had it up and running. Again using email, I was able to keep in contact AFTER THE SALE, and get info/advice from him on using that hardware. As far as I am concerned, if I find a good deal via the net, I am going to take it. I am sure one could get burned badly. I suppose what you could do to minimize that is to post-date the check and endorse it to deposit only. But that would have to be worked out in advance. I'm sure any reasonable (and honest) seller would be glad to expedite a sale by providing all the measn necessary to the buyer to check out the purchased items. My 2 cents worth! Saify Lanewala att!attunix!stl
ben@pnet01.cts.com (Ben Decker) (07/06/90)
The solution is simple too help prevent all parties from being burned:
1) The item is sent COD for cash only.
2) A note saying it's ok to have the recipient look at the merchandise
is attached to the COD tag.
3) All parties are happy!
By the way, this applies to UPS. I don't know how the post office deals with
this.
Of course, this doesn't prevent hardware / software from not working, but at
least the recipient has a pretty good handle on the condition of the items. As
for my own experience, I once received an incredibly outdated compiler which
was useless, but considering the other goo deals, I don't mind chaulking this
one up to a loss.
-Ben
"Who needs disclaimers? I work for myself :) "
UUCP: {nosc ucsd hplabs!hp-sdd}!crash!pnet01!ben
ARPA: crash!pnet01!ben@nosc.mil
INET: ben@pnet01.cts.comlimonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (07/07/90)
I tried to play it safe by only selling things via C.O.D. Something still went wrong. The person working at the post office stole the money and then made it look like the money was never received. Luckily I had my receipts and had documented everything. The post office researched it, agreed with me and fired the employee. It took a lot of form-filling and phone calls, but 3 days ago (about 1.3 years late) I got my money. I'll be posting a message very soon explaining the whole thing and I'm going to reveal a LOT of names. Watch for it. -Tom -- tlimonce@drew.edu Tom Limoncelli tlimonce@drew.uucp +1 201 408 5389 tlimonce@drew.Bitnet "You'd better move ovah limonce@pilot.njin.net ...here comes a supernova" -The B-52's.
ung@felix.UUCP (Bill Ung) (07/10/90)
In article <200@mohawk.cs.utexas.edu> bryan@cs.utexas.edu writes: >In article <23502@snow-white.udel.EDU> jones@uv4.eglin.af.mil (Calvin Jones, III) writes: [stuff deleted] > Here's where I was even more stupid. Instead of making the effort to >go to the bank right away and depositing the check, I just sat on it. My >reasoning? He knows I have two weeks to clear the check, it must be good >right? In my defense I have to say that it never occurred to me that someone >would willfully withold payment for merchandise that was acceptable. [check bounces, person get's screwed] > You can damn sure that I won't be carrying out any more check >transactions with people that aren't personally known to me. Here it appears your own stupidity was your undoing. It's always best to deposit the check IMMEDIATELY. If not for anything else, $950 generates enouogh interest to make it worth your while. Since you are dealing with someone you do not know, it's best to cover yourself anyway. In short, don't blame the net, it was your fault ... just don't let it happen again. > The best solution is to use some reputable transfer agent. The seller >can ship the equipment to some randomly chosen lawyer close to the buyer. The >buyer then brings a certified check to the lawyers offices, checks out the >equipment, and exchanges check for equipment if it proves satisfactory. Lawyer >then forwards either check or rejected equipment to seller. Most attorneys >will probably charge $50 to $100 for this, but it's advisable for large >transactions. There are others that can act as disinterested transfer agents. The best solution is just to wait for the check to clear before sending the merchandise ... provided the other person trusts you. If not, UPS COD should do fine. > If anyone knows the whereabouts of one Richard A. Brooks, I'd >appreciate hearing fom you. Sorry, if this guy is on the net reading this, he's probably laughing his ass off. I know I would be. I hate to take nasty pokes at people when they are down (I know, this post really proves that) but this whole incident could have been avoided with a little common sense. The other guy is a jerk, no disagreement there, but he made an idiot out of you as well. Bill Ung ung@felix.UUCP