mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) (07/11/90)
While the topic of PIRACY is so damned popular and flame-warranting... I have an interesting question. If there are so many people against even the smallest piracy (copying your friend's Marble Madness or something), how can these same people incessantly search for "The Red Sector demo" or the "Champs demo" or whatever others there are. I have seen many of these "demos" and they are indeed, quite impressive both in graphics and sound. HOWEVER, these "demos" are stuck on the boot block of pirated disks by pirates. These pirates are not your neighborhood copiers who use Marauder II to no end; these are juvenile europeans who use poor english and spend all their time trying to "crack" the latest amiga GAME. Most often these demos are made by somewhat skilled European programmers who want games for themselves, so they "contribute" these "demos" to the various pirate groups to use. IE, the programmers of the demos are most often pirates themselves. What is most ridiculous is the many FTP sites that carry these demos, and that people on the net constantly ask about them. I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates themselves, and should be stopped. Jason
graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu (JIM GRAHAM) (07/11/90)
>how can these same people incessantly search for "The Red Sector demo" or >the "Champs demo" or whatever others there are. > >I have seen many of these "demos" and they are indeed, quite impressive >both in graphics and sound. HOWEVER, these "demos" are stuck on the boot >block of pirated disks by pirates. >What is most ridiculous is the many FTP sites that carry these demos, and >that people on the net constantly ask about them. Gee, I was not aware these "demos" were "pirated". I'm not disagreeing with you here, is just didn't know. From what I've experienced, most of these things are glitzy graphics/ sound oriented hacks that really don't do anything but show off the Amiga's abilities. Most appear to use the Copper rather heavily. What demos in particular are "pirated" as you say? Also, when I've downloaded some of these, I'm darned lucky to get them to run at all. I've YET to see the Red Sector "demo" run, only because I cannot get my amiga to recognize Puttrax (the uncompressing utility) as an object module. -> ->Disclaimer: IMHO, all of my opinions belong to ME.<- <- __________________________________________________________ | Bitnet: GRAHAM@IUCF.BITNET | | Internet: graham@venus.iucf.indiana.edu | | UUCP: dolmen!graham@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu | | BBS: The PORTAL DOLMEN, (812) 334-0418, 24hrs. | |__________________________________________________________|
amhartma@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Andy Hartman (AmigaMan)) (07/11/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul10142801@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: >I have an interesting question. If there are so many people against even >the smallest piracy (copying your friend's Marble Madness or something), >how can these same people incessantly search for "The Red Sector demo" or >the "Champs demo" or whatever others there are. >I have seen many of these "demos" and they are indeed, quite impressive >both in graphics and sound. HOWEVER, these "demos" are stuck on the boot >block of pirated disks by pirates. If you examine these disks, you will notice that "The Red Sector demo" is 2 disks long. I'd like to see even the most skilled pirate put that on a boot block. (The Kefrens 8 demo is also 2 disks long). [...rambling deleted...] >Most often these demos are made by somewhat skilled European programmers >who want games for themselves, so they "contribute" these "demos" to the >various pirate groups to use. IE, the programmers of the demos are most >often pirates themselves. Why not try to encourage these pirates that they can, indeed, put out good stuff? Maybe this will turn their attention to constructive programming rather than cracking. >What is most ridiculous is the many FTP sites that carry these demos, and >that people on the net constantly ask about them. Why not carry them? They are just neat programs like much of the other stuff on other FTP sites. {prepare for VERY hypothetical situation...} ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Okay, let's say that Matt Dillion had once been a pirate. (remember I said VERY hypothetical!!!) Would that mean that his very useful DNet, Dice, and other great programs shouldn't be seen? NO! {Hypothetical situation OFF.} NOTE: I am in no way trying to say that Matt is a pirate...He's just the first PD/Shareware author/trustworthy guy that came to my mind! >I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates >themselves, and should be stopped. Isn't what this country's legal system is all about? Reform prisioners. If you reward their good, they might catch on... >Jason Just my 0.02 worth (God, I wish the Ami had a cents key!) AMH * Andy Hartman | I'd deny half of this crap anyway!| "Somedays, you just * Indiana University |-----------------------------------| can't get rid of a * // Amiga Man | amhartma@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | bomb!" * \X/ At Large! | AMHARTMA@rose.ucs.indiana.edu | - Batman (original) * Andy Hartman | I'd deny half of this crap anyway!| "Somedays, you just * Indiana University |-----------------------------------| can't get rid of a * // Amiga Man | amhartma@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | bomb!" * \X/ At Large! | AMHARTMA@rose.ucs.indiana.edu | - Batman (original)
laba-1ie@web-3a.berkeley.edu (The great and wonderful Jarafan) (07/11/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul10142801@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: >While the topic of PIRACY is so damned popular and flame-warranting... > >I have an interesting question. If there are so many people against even >the smallest piracy (copying your friend's Marble Madness or something), >how can these same people incessantly search for "The Red Sector demo" or >the "Champs demo" or whatever others there are. > >I have seen many of these "demos" and they are indeed, quite impressive >both in graphics and sound. HOWEVER, these "demos" are stuck on the boot >block of pirated disks by pirates. These pirates are not your neighborhood >copiers who use Marauder II to no end; these are juvenile europeans who use >poor english and spend all their time trying to "crack" the latest amiga >GAME. > >Most often these demos are made by somewhat skilled European programmers >who want games for themselves, so they "contribute" these "demos" to the >various pirate groups to use. IE, the programmers of the demos are most >often pirates themselves. > >What is most ridiculous is the many FTP sites that carry these demos, and >that people on the net constantly ask about them. > >I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates >themselves, and should be stopped. > >Jason I think you're being silly. Sure everyone knows why the demos are made, but the neat thing about the amiga is that it does have such diversity and originality. The european demos and homemade software showoffs are what make the Amiga so much more fun, and I don't care where it comes from. -Dan C. Jalkut- gorn!snozer@ssyx.ucsc.edu
tadguy@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Tad Guy) (07/11/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul10142801@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: > Most often these demos [Red Sector, Champs, etc.] are made by > somewhat skilled European programmers who want games for themselves, > so they "contribute" these "demos" to the various pirate groups to > use. IE, the programmers of the demos are most often pirates > themselves. > ... > I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates > themselves, and should be stopped. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're suggesting that because these people pirate software, then their legitimate products shouldn't be seen? Hmm... Analogy: Because someone's ideology (for example, Jew, Christian, whatever) doesn't agree with yours, then that's persons contributions (say, music, or artwork) shouldn't be seen. Nope. I don't like it. Sounds like censorship to me. ...tad PS: Notice that you're still free not to obtain these demos, and more importantly, you're free to continue to encourage others to do likewise. Be careful that you don't cut your own throat, though...
xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Nigel Tzeng) (07/11/90)
In article <TADGUY.90Jul10195244@abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov>, tadguy@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Tad Guy) writes... ^In article <MOFO.90Jul10142801@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: ^> Most often these demos [Red Sector, Champs, etc.] are made by ^> somewhat skilled European programmers who want games for themselves, ^> so they "contribute" these "demos" to the various pirate groups to ^> use. IE, the programmers of the demos are most often pirates ^> themselves. ^> ... ^> I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates ^> themselves, and should be stopped. ^ ^Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're suggesting that ^because these people pirate software, then their legitimate products ^shouldn't be seen? I think his point is (correct me if I'm wrong) that a lot of the screen hacks are advertising for pirate groups or individual crackers and displaying these demos is in poor taste. This is no reason for five different people to jump on his case considering that he is taking the anti-pirate mindset to its logical extreme. If the mere act of being a pirate is so heinious then it is justifiable to shun all products produced by them since presumably it supports stealing food from the mouth of babes...especially since they are "unrepentant". On the other hand I would guess that just as many of the screen hacks are by "real" enthusiasts and determining which is which may be difficult. ^ ^Hmm... Analogy: Because someone's ideology (for example, Jew, ^Christian, whatever) doesn't agree with yours, then that's persons ^contributions (say, music, or artwork) shouldn't be seen. ^ ^Nope. I don't like it. Sounds like censorship to me. Nah, I don't like it either and you're right...it is censorship if enforced as such. But as you state below no one is "obligated" to ftp them or display them. I don't think that Jason is doing the amiga community a disservice for pointing out the origin of the demos and does raise a valid point. Perhaps people would avoid "pirate" demos as they avoid tuna from companies that kill dolphins. ^ ^ ...tad ^ ^PS: Notice that you're still free not to obtain these demos, and ^ more importantly, you're free to continue to encourage others to ^ do likewise. Be careful that you don't cut your own throat, though... 'Nuff said - why do I get into these things? :-) NT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- // | Nigel Tzeng - STX Inc - NASA/GSFC COBE Project \X/ | xrtnt@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov | Amiga | Standard Disclaimer Applies: The opinions expressed are my own.
oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) (07/11/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul10142801@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: >While the topic of PIRACY is so damned popular and flame-warranting... > >I have an interesting question. If there are so many people against even >the smallest piracy (copying your friend's Marble Madness or something), >how can these same people incessantly search for "The Red Sector demo" or >the "Champs demo" or whatever others there are. [stuff shredded by me] > >What is most ridiculous is the many FTP sites that carry these demos, and >that people on the net constantly ask about them. > >I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates >themselves, and should be stopped. > >Jason Hey, demos are what sells the Amiga. As someone who bought one of the first Amigas that made it into San Diego, and has convinced three other people to buy one (hopefully I convinced more, but three is all that I'm sure of :-), I can definitely say that the vast majority of Amigas got sold not on the basis of WordPerfect or ProPage, and usually not even games. They got sold by D-E-M-O-S. Boing! came first, and after the buyer had his interest grabbed, his wallet and mind followed. Now, Boing! is not that big of a deal, because it is so familiar, but truly original hack demos are right up there in capturing one's attention. I will skip the reasons for creation of these demos simply because they are immaterial. The demos show the raw power of the machine. They sell the machine. They are not pirated. So any argument about supporting piracy by carrying demos is moot. Not to mention silly. OR
jnmoyne@lbl.gov (Jean-Noel MOYNE) (07/12/90)
By the way, there is a new way going in Europe now. They are groups
specialized into making demos, only demos !!! Not doing any cracks.
The idea remains the same: showing off !!! And in the text all you
can read is: "we are the Best !! look at our demo !! We dare XXX to do
better, and we wind the Demo-Contest with it!!"
That's all, no call for piracy, no reference to piracy. And if you see an
address in the text, usualy you can read: "send your demos to: XXXX XXXX
XXX, DEMOS and PD stuff only !!!!".
Why ? Because there are a lot of European cops reading the texts in
the demos too (and Europeans cops are active against pirates (especially
the APP in France)), and so a lot of ex-pirates don't do anymore cracks,
but just demos.
I'm not for the pirates !!! I've seen all my programs cracked since
the Commodore 64 years. But I like demos !!! When you're doing a demo you
don't try to write clean, you just try to get the maximum of the machine
!! And on the Amiga it's realy impressive !! Belive me, if you were able
to comme back in the time to show actual demos to the people who made the
Amiga in the first times of the Amiga 1000, they would have been surprised
that such things are possible. (such as tri-playfield, nice musics and so
on).
And not all the demos are made by the pirates, the Wild Copper Demos
have been made by people working in a shop (and you cloud read some ads
for the shop in the demo text).
I'm for the demos on the Amiga, that the fun of the Amiga (try to find
a demo on an IBM or a Mac), and just because these demos show that the
Amiga is the best computer around.
JNMmofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) (07/12/90)
Thank you for taking a broader view of my subject, Nigel. But to clarify things, here's my convention: o That support of any demo made specifically for use by a pirate on pirated software is akin to supporting piracy. I don't believe that removing the "red sector demo" or any other demo that is obviously supporting a pirate or a group is censorship. Consider the case of John DeLorean. He built a neato, stainless-steel car (that some use to travel through time, but I digress). Johnny got caught for using and dealing cocaine. The car was discontinued because note only of it's relationship to the coke-fiend, but because the design may never have been his, that production deals may have been concudcted illegally, etc. Just the same, if there were a programming god like Dillon (no offense Matt) who was all of a sudden found out to HAVE BEEN a pirate, I would really begin to question WHERE he got his algorithms, WHERE he got his graphics routines, WHERE he even got his idea(s). And if the programmer were STILL a pirate, then he/she is performing an illegal operation and deserves to be punsihed in every way. If the president of the NRA committed manslaughter, ten years later, would be be allowed to carry a gun? Hell no! That certainly is not censorship. Also, who else remembers when not more than a month ago there was a posting saying "Call these boards! All pirate except..." ? I remember quite a large barrage of messages condemming the guy who wrote the post. His post was no different than the demos, except that the post didn't do a graphic song-and dance that we amiga folk love to show our friends. Don't get me wrong; a lot of the demos are quite incredible feats of graphic and sound programming, and deserve to be praised. However, I don't see the original Boing demo spitting out pirate's names, either. Jason ps: I can live without di**head pirates' demos easily. If I want to impress someone, I can just boot up the Juggler.
jbickers@templar.actrix.co.nz (John Bickers) (07/12/90)
Quoted from - mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene): > I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates > themselves, and should be stopped. The demos are free. There is no support for demo writers other than fame, which IMHO some of them deserve. Wild Copper, for example, claimed to come from some computer shop in France, and stuck anti-Piracy stuff in at least one of their demos. They (WC) produce the best demos I've seen yet (so maybe I haven't seen many :). > Jason -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.co.nz *** *** "Man, Machine -> Super Human Being" - Kraftwerk. ***
pashdown@suns.es.COM@bambam.UUCP (Pete Ashdown) (07/12/90)
mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: >While the topic of PIRACY is so damned popular and flame-warranting... Isn't it always. What is amazing is that despite Marco's, Perry's, and others constant ranting about it, a definite solution is never reached. Ah well.. >I have an interesting question. If there are so many people against even >the smallest piracy (copying your friend's Marble Madness or something), >how can these same people incessantly search for "The Red Sector demo" or >the "Champs demo" or whatever others there are. >I have seen many of these "demos" and they are indeed, quite impressive >both in graphics and sound. HOWEVER, these "demos" are stuck on the boot >block of pirated disks by pirates. These pirates are not your neighborhood >copiers who use Marauder II to no end; these are juvenile europeans who use >poor english and spend all their time trying to "crack" the latest amiga >GAME. Wrong. These demos are created for the sole purpose of showing of the programmer's prowess to the other demo-creators. It is true that man 'cracked' programs have similar 'boot-demos', but all of the demos I have seen available on FTP sites are just as legitimate as the 'Juggler-Demo'. Look at some of the Fairlight demos. These guys put out two-disk masterpieces which are far from 'boot-demos'. I've also seen a disk magazine they produce, with virtually NO piracy information contained. They had a nice article on ray-tracing as well as some articles by authors of demos describing their inspiration. >Most often these demos are made by somewhat skilled European programmers >who want games for themselves, so they "contribute" these "demos" to the >various pirate groups to use. IE, the programmers of the demos are most >often pirates themselves. Posters to the net are also people who have numerous traffic tickets and have photocopied and taped copyrighted material. Does that mean you discard everything they do so you won't get 'infected' with a crime spree? I have never heard of someone contributing a demo to another group just so they could get a game. Usually the group does all their own programming. Whether they program demos just for the competition (there are lots of demo contests in Europe, with hardware prizes, etc..) or for a 'crack', they always do it themselves. >What is most ridiculous is the many FTP sites that carry these demos, and >that people on the net constantly ask about them. And why shouldn't we? The European demos usually stomp the Badge demos into the ground. We love to show off the Amiga and demos do it better than anything else. >I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates >themselves, and should be stopped. Are the pirates getting any money off of this? Are they even gaining any notoriety of this? I think demo writing is one of the few good things that has come out of the pirate community. Only an imbecile would say that downloading their demos is supporting piracy. Why don't we get rid of all the hypodermic needles, because people are using them for heroin? >Jason Pete "I don't practice what I preach, because I'm not the type of person I'm preaching to." - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs Ads:Amiga,AtariGames,Lynx,HP48SX,Trek,ThePolice,SkinnyPuppy,TMBG,Ministry -> Pete Ashdown [pashdown@esunix.es.COM] [...utah-cs!esunix!pashdown] <-
cpmurphy@vax1.tcd.ie (07/12/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul10142801@bucsf.bu.edu>, mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: > I have an interesting question. If there are so many people against even > the smallest piracy (copying your friend's Marble Madness or something), > how can these same people incessantly search for "The Red Sector demo" or > the "Champs demo" or whatever others there are. I haven't noticed Marco Papa asking for any demos. Did you? > I have seen many of these "demos" and they are indeed, quite impressive > both in graphics and sound. HOWEVER, these "demos" are stuck on the boot > block of pirated disks by pirates. This is bullshit. I'd like to see you fit the red sector demo onto a bootblock. > These pirates are not your neighborhood > copiers who use Marauder II to no end; these are juvenile europeans who use > poor english and spend all their time trying to "crack" the latest amiga > GAME. This sounds like xenophobia to me. "It's all right for a few All-American kids to use Marauder II now and then, but for those dirty foreigners who don't *even* speak English properly (what a crime!), to actually try to crack a game is far, far worse." > Most often these demos are made by somewhat skilled European programmers > who want games for themselves, so they "contribute" these "demos" to the > various pirate groups to use. IE, the programmers of the demos are most > often pirates themselves. Right. These "skillful programmers" only want games for themselves. In fact, they spend ALL their time trying to crack Amiga games. > I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates > themselves, and should be stopped. Who is supporting them? I mean, you don't pay any money for them. You don't vote for them. But who says all these people are pirates anyway. This sort of blanket accusation is not acceptable. Hey, I think the BADGE killer demos should be "stopped". I mean, they're free too. Obviously they're pirates too! > Jason Jason, you're a self-righteous git. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christian Murphy, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland cpmurphy@vax1.tcd.ie cpmurphy%vax1.tcd.ie@cunyvm.cuny.edu ...uunet!mcsun!ukc!swift.cs.tcd.ie!vax1.tcd.ie!cpmurphy
kendrix_j@mims.enet.dec.com (John R. Kendrix) (07/12/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul11170426@bucsf.bu.edu>, mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes.. >I don't believe that removing the "red sector demo" or any other demo that >is obviously supporting a pirate or a group is censorship. I think removing the demo *IS* censorship. If you find it so offensive, why not just clean it up!! You know, everyone of those demos come with a text file, which has the offensive numbers in it etc. Why not simply edit the file to say, 'Piracy hurts us all, please don't pirate software!', or use it to promote world peace... Or, if you wanted to be very clever, then change the phone number of the Pirate boards, to a Paris Interpol number etc... >Don't get me wrong; a lot of the demos are quite incredible feats of >graphic and sound programming, and deserve to be praised. Exactly, so praise them, and leave out the rest... It would be different if you couldn't do anything about it! Cheers, JK
bli@nunki.usc.edu (07/13/90)
In article <6160@helios.ee.lbl.gov> jnmoyne@lbl.gov (Jean-Noel MOYNE) writes: > > > By the way, there is a new way going in Europe now. They are groups >specialized into making demos, only demos !!! Not doing any cracks. > > The idea remains the same: showing off !!! And in the text all you >can read is: "we are the Best !! look at our demo !! We dare XXX to do >better, and we wind the Demo-Contest with it!!" >That's all, no call for piracy, no reference to piracy. And if you see an >address in the text, usualy you can read: "send your demos to: XXXX XXXX >XXX, DEMOS and PD stuff only !!!!". ^^^^ Stop yelling at us! Another way to look at it is by comparing demos with TV commercials. You cannot say that a TV station is actually endorsing all the products that are advertised on its channel, but rather that that TV station is (hopefully) not engaging in censorship against a product. There is nothing illegal or immoral about demos. they are not pirated, and nobody is loosing money because of their free distribution. The best way for a bulletin board to show that it is against piracy is not to allow pirated software in its database.. For example, a local bulletin board (Mike's Video House, (818) 240-1593) has some demos in its databases, but the sysop has made it clear time and time again that no pirated stuff is allowed. When he used to run another software that allowed larger descriptions, he used to add a disclaimer like: "Although I personally do not agree or endorse the views expressed in this demo, it is an interesting programming example"... What would made *ME* more interested in collecting demos, is if those european programmers would provide the source to those demos. It is really impossible to get anything out of the guys on c.s.amiga.tech that is not in the RKMs... :-) (er. cheap commercial here: you are welcome to call the above mentioned board, it is open to all mature, non-warez-hunters. You'll like it.)
mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) (07/13/90)
In article <6511.269c8e61@vax1.tcd.ie> cpmurphy@vax1.tcd.ie writes: > I haven't noticed Marco Papa asking for any demos. Did you? WHO ???????? > > I have seen many of these "demos" and they are indeed, quite impressive > > both in graphics and sound. HOWEVER, these "demos" are stuck on the boot > > block of pirated disks by pirates. > This is bullshit. I'd like to see you fit the red sector demo onto a bootblock. Did I *EVER* say that *ALL* demos went on bootblocks? Especially the Red Sector demo? > This sounds like xenophobia to me. "It's all right for a few > All-American kids to use Marauder II now and then, but for those dirty > foreigners who don't *even* > speak English properly (what a crime!), to actually try to crack a game > is far, far worse." Sheesh! I don't recall saying that, either... > Right. These "skillful programmers" only want games for themselves. In fact, > they spend ALL their time trying to crack Amiga games. Well as a matter of fact, they do. Do you have any idea what they go through to just get their telephone codes? Even if they don't crack the games themselves and just copy them, it takes most of a day to upload and download to different boards and such, even with a 14.4 hst. And I wonder, where do all these demo programmers get 600 bucks for an hst? Hmmm? > vote for them. But who says all these people are pirates anyway. This > sort of blanket accusation is not acceptable. Hey, I think the BADGE killer > demos should be "stopped". I mean, they're free too. Obviously they're > pirates too! I never said *ALL* were pirates. I never said *ALL* demos were used and made by pirates. All I said was "with all the GOOD demos out, why give the pirate's demos attention?" > > Jason > > Jason, you're a self-righteous git. All I did was ask a simple question! Re-read the original posting. You see no accusations on my part, nor do I point a finger at anybody and call them a self-righteous git. (afraid to write my name because some Irish jerk will quote me on it)
cpmurphy@vax1.tcd.ie (07/13/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul11170426@bucsf.bu.edu>, mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: > Thank you for taking a broader view of my subject, Nigel. > > But to clarify things, here's my convention: > > o That support of any demo made specifically for use by a pirate on > pirated software is akin to supporting piracy. I still don't get it. How is anyone "supporting" piracy by watching a freely distributable demo? They're not psychic, you know. There's no way they know whether you look at it or not. > I don't believe that removing the "red sector demo" or any other demo that I've seen (most of) the red sector demo, and I have seen nothing to say that it was written by pirates to promote piracy. Not that I would read the text that flies by, anyway. You see, it's not actually the text that matters, it's the sound, the graphics. > is obviously supporting a pirate or a group is censorship. No? Can I just get my dictionary? "censor: to suppress what is obscene or sedititious or unacceptable to military or other authorities." >Consider the > case of John DeLorean. He built a neato, stainless-steel car (that some use > to travel through time, but I digress). Johnny got caught for using and > dealing cocaine. > > The car was discontinued because note only of it's relationship to the > coke-fiend, but because the design may never have been his, that production > deals may have been concudcted illegally, etc. Totally irrelevant. > Just the same, if there were a programming god like Dillon (no offense > Matt) who was all of a sudden found out to HAVE BEEN a pirate, I would > really begin to question WHERE he got his algorithms, WHERE he got his > graphics routines, WHERE he even got his idea(s). So you say they stole all the graphics routines from commercial software. Or, sorry, you SUSPECT they MIGHT have. Your concept of justice is a little bit primitive. You say the red sector demo and others "obviously" support piracy. You present not a shred of evidence. > And if the programmer were STILL a pirate, then he/she is performing an > illegal operation and deserves to be punsihed in every way. "An illegal operation". What the hell do you mean by this? It sounds like an evil surgeon. This kind of fuzzy accusation does not help you at all. "Punished in every way". Do you _read_ what you say? I presume you don't mean "should be tortured and then hung, drawn and quartered". If not then say what you mean to say. > If the > president of the NRA committed manslaughter, ten years later, would be be > allowed to carry a gun? Hell no! How do you know? What has this hypothetical situation got to do with European demos anyway? > That certainly is not censorship. No, not being allowed to own a gun is not censorship. > Also, who else remembers when not more than a month ago there was a posting > saying "Call these boards! All pirate except..." ? So what?? > I remember quite a large barrage of messages condemming the guy who wrote > the post. His post was no different than the demos, except that the post > didn't do a graphic song-and dance that we amiga folk love to show our > friends. So you say the MAIN purpose these people write demos is to get people to send them pirated software? I could think of a lot easier ways of getting pirated software. They do it to _show_off_ (their skills and, especially, the machine). I don't think people should be advertising piracy, but I'm not going to try to start a big witchhunt on Usenet about it. And I'm not going to delete a good demo just because some of the scroll-text-which-zooms-by-too-quickly-to-read is mildly offensive to me. > Don't get me wrong; a lot of the demos are quite incredible feats of > graphic and sound programming, and deserve to be praised. > > However, I don't see the original Boing demo spitting out pirate's names, > either. > > Jason > > ps: I can live without di**head pirates' demos easily. If I want to impress > someone, I can just boot up the Juggler. Good. And maybe (just maybe) the rest of us are mature enough to decide what is safe for us to watch and what is not, without somebody censoring everything because it might support pirates. And guess what, we haven't all got (or even seen) the Juggler demo. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christian Murphy, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland cpmurphy@vax1.tcd.ie cpmurphy%vax1.tcd.ie@cunyvm.cuny.edu ...uunet!mcsun!ukc!swift.cs.tcd.ie!vax1.tcd.ie!cpmurphy
wlj1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Wayne L Jebian) (07/13/90)
I have a 128 and while I enjoy checking out the demos on the 64, i'd love to see some of the demos on the Amiga. i could imagine what they must look like esp. since as I said, alot of the olde c-64 demos are still pretty awesome is it true there are very few, if any demos on the IBM/Mac? that shouldnt surprise me... heh -Mark Dolengo
oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) (07/13/90)
jason greene writes: [blatherings deleted] >(afraid to write my name because some Irish jerk will quote me on it) Naah, you're NOT xenophobic, you're just really offensive. OR
jeh@athena.sisd.kodak.com (Ed Hanway) (07/13/90)
Has anyone ever wondered where the demo writers get those nice huge fonts for their scrolling messages? One demo that I downloaded a few years ago (from a commercial service, no less) included a file named 77, which turned out to be a verbatim copy of a commercial 77 point Helvetica lookalike disk font (sold by Zuma, I think.) Granted, there are many more sources of public domain Amiga fonts today than there were back then, and it's not out of the question for these demo authors to design their own, but I don't see why the author of a program whose purpose is to annouce new cracked 'warez' to fellow pirates should be given the benefit of the doubt. (I'm not saying all demos are written by pirates. The Wild Copper demos, in particular, while somewhat vulgar, explicitly discourage piracy.) -- Ed Hanway (speaking for myself, not my employer)
JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (07/14/90)
In article <TADGUY.90Jul10195244@abcfd20.larc.nasa.gov>, tadguy@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Tad Guy) says: > >Jason greene writes: >> I think that supporting these demos is akin to supporting the pirates >> themselves, and should be stopped. > >Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're suggesting that >because these people pirate software, then their legitimate products >shouldn't be seen? > >Hmm... Analogy: Because someone's ideology (for example, Jew, >Christian, whatever) doesn't agree with yours, then that's persons >contributions (say, music, or artwork) shouldn't be seen. > >Nope. I don't like it. Sounds like censorship to me. How about a better analogy? Because someone committed a crime, and is convicted of it, they are sentenced to pay a fine or penalty, which is taken from honestly earned money. Censorship is not a proper analogy. These are people who broke the law, and the law was not one that banned publication or such. It was one that PROTECTED peoples' hard-work from theft. What he is saying is that these people steal, and should be penalized by not distributing their work, whether it be honest work or not. <<No sides taken... I don't pirate, but I do have some pirate demos>> Kurt -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- || Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || Amigas, Macs, IBM's, C-64's, NeXTs, || || 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || Apple ]['s.... I use 'em all. || || Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || (and in that order too! ;-) || || jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || -----------------------------------------------------------------------
JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (07/14/90)
In article <1765@mountn.dec.com>, kendrix_j@mims.enet.dec.com (John R. Kendrix) says: >I think removing the demo *IS* censorship. If you find it so offensive, why >not just clean it up!! You know, everyone of those demos come with a text >file, which has the offensive numbers in it etc. Why not simply edit the file >to say, 'Piracy hurts us all, please don't pirate software!', or use it to >promote world peace... Or, if you wanted to be very clever, then change the >phone number of the Pirate boards, to a Paris Interpol number etc... I've tried. Nearly all the demos I've found that had pirate BBS numbers or profanity in them, were also all encoded so that you couldn't change the messages without a lot more work than just whipping out NewZap... A pity too... some of the most profane ones were those with the best graphics, but I had to discard them because, although I don't have the cleanest vocabulary in the world, so it didn't hurt me, I sure don't want to show off my machine with four letter words. Anyway, these pirates already thought of your editing idea, and pretty well prevented it. Kurt -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- || Kurt Tappe (215) 363-9485 || Amigas, Macs, IBM's, C-64's, NeXTs, || || 184 W. Valley Hill Rd. || Apple ]['s.... I use 'em all. || || Malvern, PA 19355-2214 || (and in that order too! ;-) || || jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu --------------------------------------|| || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || -----------------------------------------------------------------------
bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) (07/14/90)
The thing I object to about those demos is the abominable language. Not grammatical or spelling errors, but obscenity. I've wanted to show off my Amiga many times to people who are offended by the F word, and while those demos are the most impressive examples of what you can do with the machine, I just can't show them to the parents of a twelve year old girl. They'll think that that's what the machine is all about and run for cover. I saw a fantastic demo running in the window of the local Software Etc. recently, and I watched it for a while. It started out innocently enough, until the words "GLORIOUS F***INGS TO " followed by a list of people they either like or don't like, I'm not sure which <grin>. I went in and told the manager to take a look, and he regretfully had to take the demo down. That's not the kind of thing that wins friends and influences people in a mall... BTW, someone said that there's an associated text file which you can change. That's not always true. Sometimes, as in the case of the demo at the store, it's encoded in tthe binary. I couldn't even find the text to blank it out with newzap... /******************************************************************** * All of the above copyright by the below. * * Bill Cavanaugh uunet!tronsbox!bleys * * "You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever." * * Larry Anderson * ********************************************************************/
oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) (07/16/90)
In article <1990Jul13.154213.11818@sisd.kodak.com> jeh@athena.sisd.kodak.com (Ed Hanway) writes: >Has anyone ever wondered where the demo writers get those nice huge fonts for >their scrolling messages? > >One demo that I downloaded a few years ago (from a commercial service, no less) >included a file named 77, which turned out to be a verbatim copy of a >commercial 77 point Helvetica lookalike disk font (sold by Zuma, I think.) > >Granted, there are many more sources of public domain Amiga fonts today than >there were back then, and it's not out of the question for these demo authors >to design their own, but I don't see why the author of a program whose purpose >is to annouce new cracked 'warez' to fellow pirates should be given the >benefit of the doubt. > >(I'm not saying all demos are written by pirates. The Wild Copper demos, >in particular, while somewhat vulgar, explicitly discourage piracy.) >-- >Ed Hanway >(speaking for myself, not my employer) I have a couple of questions about this. First, the "benefit of the doubt" thing. Is it my mistake, or do we live in a country where it is still OK to be innocent until accused of having anything to do with drugs? Perhaps we are entering a brave new world in which producing software for other people to enjoy is a criminal act. Far be it from me to say anything about the Spectrum Holobyte v PD debacle, but it seems that that was the all important first step... Now perhaps we can have a demo szar and an agency to track down those who view or use software not produced by Microsoft or Borland or any "commercial" publisher. :-) Now a semi-serious question. It has been my impression that fonts/typefaces cannot be copyrighted, just their names. So, it is not legal to release a Times (c) font, but it is ok to use the data from that font or produce a look-alike font. Flames for the first statement directed to alt.flame, replies to the second question, would be very much appreciated. Regards, OR
jeh@athena.sisd.kodak.com (Ed Hanway) (07/16/90)
In article <3557@crash.cts.com> oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) writes: >In article <1990Jul13.154213.11818@sisd.kodak.com> jeh@athena.sisd.kodak.com (Ed Hanway) writes: >>One demo that I downloaded a few years ago (from a commercial service, no less) >>included a file named 77, which turned out to be a verbatim copy of a >>commercial 77 point Helvetica lookalike disk font (sold by Zuma, I think.) >> >>Granted, there are many more sources of public domain Amiga fonts today than >>there were back then, and it's not out of the question for these demo authors >>to design their own, but I don't see why the author of a program whose purpose >>is to annouce new cracked 'warez' to fellow pirates should be given the >>benefit of the doubt. > >I have a couple of questions about this. First, the "benefit of the doubt" >thing. Is it my mistake, or do we live in a country where it is still OK >to be innocent until accused of having anything to do with drugs? [...] > >Now a semi-serious question. It has been my impression that fonts/typefaces >cannot be copyrighted, just their names. So, it is not legal to release a >Times (c) font, but it is ok to use the data from that font or produce a >look-alike font. As several people have pointed out, font data can not be copyrighted. Adobe has successfully been able to copyright some specific implementations of PostScript fonts, using the rationale that since PostScript is a programming language, there are many independent ways to encode the same font; thus copyrighting their particular implementation won't stop anyone from independently producing their own representation of the same font, but it should stop someone from ripping off Adobe's code and calling it their own. I don't think Adobe's arguments could be applied to bitmaps. To address this "benefit of the doubt" thing, my point, admittedly weakened by the problems with fonts and copyrights, is that if a pirate openly distributes a "cracked" commercial game, I'd suspect that he'd have no qualms about hoisting someone's fonts or bitmaps or source code or whatever without giving proper credit to make his scrolling demo look more slick. In fact, I believe some of the more abusive language in the Wild Copper demos is directed toward someone who ripped off other demos and patched his own name into them. Of course, lacking any specific evidence, I'm not advocating that we appoint a software czar to start serving user groups with no-knock search warrants or anything. I'm not even suggesting that, without specific evidence, any demos should not be distributed. I'm merely suggesting that perhaps some of these pirates are not the coding heroes that they've been made out to be. -- Ed Hanway (speaking for myself, not my employer)
tadguy@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Tad Guy) (07/16/90)
In article <90194.230146JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu> JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > tadguy@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Tad Guy) says: > >Hmm... Analogy: Because someone's ideology (for example, Jew, > >Christian, whatever) doesn't agree with yours, then that's persons > >contributions (say, music, or artwork) shouldn't be seen. > > > >Nope. I don't like it. Sounds like censorship to me. > > How about a better analogy? Because someone committed a crime, and > is convicted of it, they are sentenced to pay a fine or penalty, which > is taken from honestly earned money. Censorship is not a proper analogy... It's still censorship to prevent someone's contributions from being viewed, regardless of crimes the author may have committed. You're suggesting that we become judge/jury. Let's leave that to qualified persons... ...tad
greg@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (07/17/90)
In article <3557@crash.cts.com> oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) writes: [Earlier respones & 1st question deleted.] >Now a semi-serious question. It has been my impression that fonts/typefaces >cannot be copyrighted, just their names. So, it is not legal to release a >Times (c) font, but it is ok to use the data from that font or produce a >look-alike font. Now we get into that foggy, undefined field often called ethics (Not that I'm accusing anyone of having them :-) ). Sure, one can _legally_ copy the definition data for a font, and even call it their own, as long as they give it a new name. However, IMHO, the programmer that would do such a thing is not proud enough of his work to put in the effort it would take to design a new font. On the other hand (well, not quite) giving credit for the font to the original designer would at least be a more honorable thing to do. STEALING someone else's work is completely unacceptable (IMNSHO). >Flames for the first statement directed to alt.flame, replies to the second >question, would be very much appreciated. You're welcome! > Regards, > OR ...greg... ___ Disclaimer: The opinions expressed above are not my own, but AMIGA! //// the property of some higher-up power, to which I am only a tool. //// "Welcome, my son. Welcome to the machine." -- Pink Floyd ___ //// "Reality is only a simulation, and it's still in beta testing." -- Me \\\\//// \\XX// Greg Harp greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
BAXTER_A@wehi.dn.mu.oz (07/18/90)
In article <3492@crash.cts.com>, oleg@crash.cts.com (Oleg Rovner) > jason greene writes: > > [blatherings deleted] > >>(afraid to write my name because some Irish jerk will quote me on it) > > Naah, you're NOT xenophobic, you're just really offensive. > > OR Seems to fall in the category of what we call "WANKERS" Regards Alan