thor@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (07/06/90)
I have been arguing with several people on a local network who think CDTV is a computer and should be marketed as one. (They call it a Baby Amiga) Recently a few of them think it would be nice for CDTV to have a keyboard (yuck!) and a modem. But since the CDTV software may be megabytes in length, modems are too slow, and faster ones are more expensive than CDTV itself. I have a better idea! How about a sort of ethernet coax-cable port. This will be used to hook into Cable-TV, and instead of 'downloading' new programs and data, owners will watch the 'CDTV' channel and set their CDTV's to record (in VCR jargon) programs. This strips away the computer jargon of downloading and adds the more intuitive one of 'recording' a program/show. I can see it now. Man: 'Honey, we need to record that program on Home Improvement, check the Cable-TV guide and see what time it shows.' Wife: 'Ok, I'm setting the timer(battery backed up clock) to record at 9pm.' All this idea takes is a cable channel willing to sell air time, a device to decode incoming data from a cable-box, a transmission format for the data. This makes CDTV even more like an 'Interactive' VCR. So instead of downloading a program that takes 10 hours at 2400 baud, you receive a program at video bandwidth speeds in minutes. I can see it now, companies lining up to advertise interactive commercials, producers lining up to make interactive sit-coms, educationial institutions getting their wildest dreams (instead of 'Can you spell this word, say it with me.' , it would be 'spell the word using the remote on your CDTV'. Anyone care to shoot this marvelous dream of mine down? Now more than ever I see CDTV as a NON-computer/not-even-close/machine. -- This is not a .signature...Really, its LIVE! Ray Cromwell, Computer Engineering Major, Techno-Geek and Amiga lover.
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (07/06/90)
In article <9350@life.ai.mit.edu> thor@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: [...] Idea about using cable TV to download 3+ Mbyte software to CDTV deleted [...] > All this idea takes is a cable channel willing to sell air time, a device >to decode incoming data from a cable-box, a transmission format for the data. >This makes CDTV even more like an 'Interactive' VCR. So instead of downloading [...] Well, you only need one more thing: a CD device that can record. CDTV is read-only. -- _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM
lshaw@walt.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (07/07/90)
In article <9350@life.ai.mit.edu> thor@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >I have a better idea! How about a sort of ethernet coax-cable port. This >will be used to hook into Cable-TV, and instead of 'downloading' new programs >and data, owners will watch the 'CDTV' channel and set their CDTV's to record >(in VCR jargon) programs. This strips away the computer jargon of downloading >and adds the more intuitive one of 'recording' a program/show. Sure, you can make it as easy to program as a VCR, the only problem is that most people don't even know how to program a VCR. ============================================================================ "The machine minded material man Logan Shaw desperately dreams of a brand new sedan. lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Wlll he expect long lasting gain ======================== from a toy that will race then rust in the rain?" - elim Hall, Things Break
dz@lime.ucsb.edu (Daniel James Zerkle) (07/08/90)
In article <9350@life.ai.mit.edu> thor@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > >modems are too slow, and faster ones are more expensive than CDTV itself. >I have a better idea! How about a sort of ethernet coax-cable port. This >will be used to hook into Cable-TV, and instead of 'downloading' new programs >and data, owners will watch the 'CDTV' channel and set their CDTV's to record >(in VCR jargon) programs. This strips away the computer jargon of downloading >and adds the more intuitive one of 'recording' a program/show. > .... >a program that takes 10 hours at 2400 baud, you receive a program at video >bandwidth speeds in minutes. I can see it now, companies lining up to >advertise interactive commercials, producers lining up to make interactive >.... >(instead of > 'Can you spell this word, say it with me.' , it would be 'spell the word >using the remote on your CDTV'. Hmmmm. Very interesting idea. With a little bit of hardware, it would be very possible to do this sort of thing. The FCC is now letting cable companies do "interesting" things during the vertical retrace period. It would be possible to come up with some effective way to broadcast software over this sort of medium, if it has not already been done. While doing this, it would be very possible to download small portions of software at the same time a TV program is running. Of course, you would then be able to locally control some of what goes on the screen. This would make for such things as interactive educational programs, etc. Of course, there would be some problems. You would need some sort of _writable_ medium to permanently store software. The massive programs that go on CD-ROM would be the most trouble, since CD-ROM is not (yet) a writable medium. In addition, your storage medium would have to be able to STORE the information at that speed. Hard disks probably could, but floppy disks don't go that fast, especially when you consider that they may well be out of operation for large chunks of time while the operator swaps the floppies. For small programs, however, this system would be very quick and efficient. No need to run off to the store or wait for a mail order to arrive. You could just record your software off of some cable station. You don't even need an (expensive and hard to get) internet connection! It would certainly be much faster and accessible than a BBS (probably cheaper, too, once you count long-distance bills). The biggest problem I can with distribution of small programs is billing -- How do you make people pay for it? Do they just get a subscription to some cable station, the way you get HBO or Showtime or Cinemax or whatever? The scrambling methods can use up a substantial chunk of the vertical retrace, thus nullifying some of the benefits. You can't bill people for only the programs they take, since they get broadcast to everybody... or can you? Perhaps people could dial up requests that can be read only by their particular machine (this can be done with certain encipherment techniques). This is starting to sound like what people could do once the dreamers' fiber-optic network gets installed in everybody's house. | Dan Zerkle home:(805) 968-4683 work:687-0110 | | dz@cornu.ucsb.edu dz%cornu@ucsbuxa.bitnet ...ucbvax!hub!cornu!dz | | Snailmail: 6681 Berkshire Terrace #5, Isla Vista, CA 93117 | | Disclaimer: My fish are stupid. |
lshaw@walt.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (07/08/90)
In article <5908@hub.ucsb.edu> dz@cornu.ucsb.edu (Daniel James Zerkle) writes: [some stuff about downloading programs to a CDTV box deleted] >Hmmmm. Very interesting idea. With a little bit of hardware, it would >be very possible to do this sort of thing. The FCC is now letting cable >companies do "interesting" things during the vertical retrace period. It >would be possible to come up with some effective way to broadcast software >over this sort of medium, if it has not already been done. I can see only one problem with this: I imagine you're going to want to download things in the form of packets about the size of howevermuch data you can fit between frames. Now, to keep nasty errors out (much more important for software than for video programs), I bet you'll have some type of checksum or some similar way of checking for errors. What do you do when you've found an error? You can't send a packet back to the cable company telling them to retransmit that last packet. So I assume you'll have to just give a little error message saying you couldn't record, cause there was a little error. I supposed you could counteract this a little bit by sending tons and tons of parity -- enough to detect and correct errors, but that may not be enough, depending on how noisy cable TV is. >| Dan Zerkle home:(805) 968-4683 work:687-0110 | >| dz@cornu.ucsb.edu dz%cornu@ucsbuxa.bitnet ...ucbvax!hub!cornu!dz | >| Snailmail: 6681 Berkshire Terrace #5, Isla Vista, CA 93117 | >| Disclaimer: My fish are stupid. | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- My fish (coincidentally named Fred) is _dead_, so there. ============================================================================ "The machine minded material man Logan Shaw desperately dreams of a brand new sedan. lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Wlll he expect long lasting gain ======================== from a toy that will race then rust in the rain?" - elim Hall, Things Break
robin@sabre.austin.ibm.com (Robin D. Wilson/1000000) (07/10/90)
In article <5908@hub.ucsb.edu> dz@cornu.ucsb.edu (Daniel James Zerkle) writes: >In article <9350@life.ai.mit.edu> thor@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >> >>modems are too slow, and faster ones are more expensive than CDTV itself. >>I have a better idea! How about a sort of ethernet coax-cable port. This >>will be used to hook into Cable-TV, and instead of 'downloading' new programs >>and data, owners will watch the 'CDTV' channel and set their CDTV's to record >>(in VCR jargon) programs. This strips away the computer jargon of downloading >>and adds the more intuitive one of 'recording' a program/show. > >The biggest problem I can with distribution of small programs is billing -- The biggest problem I see is with receiving the data. How do you verify that the data/program received is correct vs. what was sent. All networks have some sort of error checking, but on a cable T.V. network all messages are broadcast from a single source. If MY CDTV can broadcast back, then we have a serious traffic problem in places like New York City, or L.A. or S.F./Bay area. (But that would solve billing problems.) But then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about.... +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |The views expressed herein, are the sole responsibility of the typist at hand| +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |UUCP: cs.utexas.edu!romp!ibmchs!auschs!sabre.austin.ibm.com!robin | |USNail: 701 Canyon Bend Dr. | | Pflugerville, TX 78660 | | Home: (512)251-6889 Work: (512)823-4526 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
monty@sagpd1.UUCP (Monty Saine) (07/10/90)
In article <33522@ut-emx.UUCP> lshaw@walt.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) writes:
--I can see only one problem with this:
-- I imagine you're going to want to download things in the form of packets
-- about the size of howevermuch data you can fit between frames. Now,
-- to keep nasty errors out (much more important for software than for
-- video programs), I bet you'll have some type of checksum or some similar
-- way of checking for errors. What do you do when you've found an error?
-- You can't send a packet back to the cable company telling them to retransmit
-- that last packet. So I assume you'll have to just give a little error
-- message saying you couldn't record, cause there was a little error.
-- I supposed you could counteract this a little bit by sending tons and
-- tons of parity -- enough to detect and correct errors, but that may not
-- be enough, depending on how noisy cable TV is.
How about multiple transfers of each packet? How many copies of
each packet would be required to determine what data is incorrect?
I am not up on error checking/recovery, but it seems that some
form of redundant transfer protocol could be worked out. Also why
does this all have to be done during the retrace period? There
are many whole channels available on most cable networks. Why not
have a dedicated channel for data a transfer service. Use the same pay
for view technology that is in place. Give the users a menu of what
is available for download and set up an automatic receiver to accept
the data when it is sent. Real time receipt would be nice, but this
service should be cheaper than BBS and phone rates so a time lag might
be acceptable.
Just thoughts to mull over, no flames please. :)
Monty SaieFILLMORE@EMRCAN.BITNET (07/11/90)
The concept of broadcasting software over cable TV has been tried before- here in Ottawa several years ago. A company called NABU set up the NABU network, which broadcast software over the local cable system. There was only one flaw with the idea - you had to buy one of their proprietary micros to run the software on! How they could totally screw up a great idea is beyond my comprehension. After a year or so of losing money they gave up, instead of trying again with Apple, TRS-80, or PC software. I think this idea is bound to resurface, hopefully with some more practical-minded people running the show. It reminds me of the DEC Rainbow where you had to buy pre-formatted diskettes from DEC at a ridiculous price. ________________________ Bob Fillmore, Systems Software & Communications BITNET: FILLMORE@EMRCAN Computer Services Centre, BIX: bfillmore Energy, Mines, & Resources Canada Voice: (613) 992-2832 588 Booth St., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1A 0E4 FAX: (613) 996-2953
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (07/11/90)
Well, it looks like all the pieces are here to make this work, though possibly in an optional appliance sold to sit alongside the CDTV box: 1) a writeable laser recording the same format as the CDTV reads; 2) a cable channel or channel interframe gap (depending on how fast you have to download this stuff to satisfy customers' demands) to pass the information down quickly; half an hour at full speed will fill the biggest video disk; 3) the pay for view system to capture recording requests, with the bill recorded when the program has been successfully received and validated; 4) error correcting bits with each track of data (I've seen ECC used that could correct a 200 bit burst of noise in a 32K bitstream), and multiple transmission of each track spread out in time to get past longer noise bursts; 5) frequent menus of available programs; if the system worked like HBO and broadcast the same program several times in a week, and it used just the interframe gap, the main picture portion could alternate between demos/sales pitches for the programs, and order menus/instructions, simultaneous with the actual program data transmission taking place in the gap, and the user could program a list of programs to capture without worrying about their order. This doesn't require two way communication, which simplifies some of the concerns. With a suitable encoding of each transmitted track or block of program, it would even be possible to have data for all the programs be broadcast mixed together in an endless loop, and picked up in fairly random order one or more programs at a time, and sorted out by system software onto the target disk(s). Don't you love designing technology interactively on the net? Building castles in the air, it's called elsewhere. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> -- Trish, condemned to a future of living behind the seven eleven -- Mark Smith
maffett@netcom.UUCP (Tim Maffett) (07/12/90)
In article <9007110253.AA17651@jade.berkeley.edu> FILLMORE@EMRCAN.BITNET writes: >The concept of broadcasting software over cable TV has been tried before- >here in Ottawa several years ago. A company called NABU set up the NABU >network, which broadcast software over the local cable system. >There was only one flaw with the idea - you had to buy one of their >Bob Fillmore, Systems Software & Communications BITNET: FILLMORE@EMRCAN > Computer Services Centre, BIX: bfillmore This discussion is a little tiresome. In the US at least, (maybe Canada), most cable systems offer something called X-PRESS. It goes to all subscribers as part of the basic service, and to access it you buy a box ($99.00) which takes the cable as input and outputs a 9600 baud serial line to computer X. Broadcast 24 hours a day are news stories from around the world (AP, UPI, TASS, .....) along with weather, recipes, sports, stock info (every 1 hour, you can pay more for a decoder which allows you to get 15 min stock updates). Anyway, to cut to the chase they also broadcast software for a variety of machines, they post a schedule of what will be broadcast that day/week, and you can set the software up to capture the the files you are interested in. The files range from shareware to software updates for the capture software. It works fine for me, I imagine that each packet is sent several time, but it is completely transparent. I do know that even the articles have checksums and that if there is any error the program skips that article and waits for the next. They provide software for a variety of computers (Amiga, ibm, mac, atari st, apple ii...) which provides the capture/browse data/save data interface. The software for the amiga is the best however (naturally), because the capture dirver runs in the background gathering data, and you can bring up the viewer at any time to look at what has been captured (for other machines the software takes over the machine (but we already know the wonders of multitasking :)). Anyway, I use it for the news (I get home and the newspaper is waiting inside of my amiga, I can search it, print articles, ....) and also for the stock info (daily plots of CBM stock). The price for my box was $99.00 and that is all I ever have to pay (other than the same old cable bill). It is one hell of a bargain for a 24hour 9600baud data link to the outside world. Oh, you can find out if you cable system has X-PRESS by dialing 1-800-7PCNEWS, this is also how you order it. tim (I have nothing to do with X-PRESS, just heard about it by chance on a local BBS).
maffett@netcom.UUCP (Tim Maffett) (07/12/90)
In article <11963@netcom.UUCP> maffett@netcom.UUCP (Tim Maffett) writes: >(I have nothing to do with X-PRESS, just heard about it by chance on a local Oh, I almost forgot, there is one writer in particular for X-PRESS which is very fond of CDTV and has done several articles on it. He has interviewed Nolan Bushnell,... and discussed various things about CDTV and the software. He also provides a HOTFLASH! (tm) of new software titles available for various computers (amiga included), but also anouncements of various new titles that will be avialable for CDTV!. Too bad none of these articles make it to a real newspaper!. tim
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (07/13/90)
maffett@netcom.UUCP (Tim Maffett) writes: >In article <9007110253.AA17651@jade.berkeley.edu> FILLMORE@EMRCAN.BITNET writes: > This discussion is a little tiresome. In the US at least, (maybe Canada), >most cable systems offer something called X-PRESS. It goes to all subscribers Tiresome? maybe to you but not to me. I called the number for X-Press and they do not handle Louisville. Louisville is a fair sized city and I would expect that if *MOST* cable companies carried X-Press, then Louisville would too. So I think you should ammend your comment to 'some US cable companies carry X-Press' :-). Of course, Looneyville is one of the last remaining holdouts of the 19th century, so maybe we are the only place in the US without this service. Oh, I also recall several years ago (around 1983?) I read about some cable company offering special setups to download games to Atari 800 home computers. They had a special cartridge that could download the game and then you could play the game until you turned off the machine, you couldn't dump the game to disk tho. -- John Sparks | | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 2400bps. sparks@corpane.UUCP | | PH: (502) 968-DISK A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of. - Ogden Nash
jsurine@entec.Wichita.NCR.COM (James Surine) (07/17/90)
Along time ago I saw an article on a company trying to sell a device
that uses radio transmissions to transmit software. They did some tests
and it did work but it never got out into the real marketplace.
--
o
j.surine@Wichita.NCR.COM /O>
NCR Peripheral Products Division ...<.\...mann@watserv1.waterloo.edu (Shannon Mann) (07/18/90)
In article <593@entec.Wichita.NCR.COM> jsurine@entec.UUCP (James Surine) writes: >Along time ago I saw an article on a company trying to sell a device >that uses radio transmissions to transmit software. They did some tests >and it did work but it never got out into the real marketplace. If you want to get a RTTY licence, you can do this now (RTTY - Radio Teletype) There is a piece of software available over internet called KAQ9. It is meant as ftp and telnet software for RTTY's All you then need is an interface to a ham transceiver. >j.surine@Wichita.NCR.COM /O> -=- -=- Shannon Mann -=- mann@watserv1.UWaterloo.Ca -=-
jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) (07/19/90)
Some years back at a West Coast Computer Show (in San Francisco), a company
was selling an FM modem. The idea was to download public domain software
(IBM-PC) from an FM radio station that was part of the NPR network.
I think they went out of business.
--
Joe Smith (408)922-6220 | SMTP: jms@tardis.tymnet.com or jms@gemini.tymnet.com
BT Tymnet Tech Services | UUCP: ...!{ames,pyramid}!oliveb!tymix!tardis!jms
PO Box 49019, MS-C41 | BIX: smithjoe | 12 PDP-10s still running! "POPJ P,"
San Jose, CA 95161-9019 | humorous dislaimer: "My Amiga speaks for me."akk@trantor.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Andreas K. Klingler) (07/19/90)
I don't know if this has been mentioned before. But here in Germany they did transmissions of software via radio several years ago. Currently there is a TV show ( a computer magazine) which transmits additional information, software, images etc. in some lines of the vertical blanking interval. It's even possible to record the show with a VCR and read the information from the VCR later. They also sell the needed interface. --- Andreas Klingler akk@trantor.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) (07/20/90)
In article <1159@tardis.Tymnet.COM> jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) writes:
Some years back at a West Coast Computer Show (in San Francisco), a company
was selling an FM modem. The idea was to download public domain software
(IBM-PC) from an FM radio station that was part of the NPR network.
I think they went out of business.
I have seen talk/advertisements of HAM radio interfaces for the Amiga for
transmission of everything including graphics. AVT (I think) is one such
system that pops to mind.
At one point, there was talk of the Stargate system. I believe it was an
effort to put out a Usenet distribution on the spare bandwidth in satellite
transmissions for TBS (Turner Broadcasting System). In theory, with the right
equipment, you could pick up a full Usenet feed off the satellite and pipe it
into your computer. This used to be talked about in news.stargate, but its
been eons since I saw anything posted on it.
--
===================================================================
David Masterson Consilium, Inc.
uunet!cimshop!davidm Mt. View, CA 94043
===================================================================
"If someone thinks they know what I said, then I didn't say it!"david@twg.com (David S. Herron) (07/20/90)
In article <2536@corpane.UUCP> sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: >maffett@netcom.UUCP (Tim Maffett) writes: >>In article <9007110253.AA17651@jade.berkeley.edu> FILLMORE@EMRCAN.BITNET writes: >> This discussion is a little tiresome. In the US at least, (maybe Canada), >>most cable systems offer something called X-PRESS. It goes to all subscribers > >Tiresome? maybe to you but not to me. I called the number for X-Press and >they do not handle Louisville. Louisville is a fair sized city and I >would expect that if *MOST* cable companies carried X-Press, then Louisville >would too. So I think you should ammend your comment to 'some US cable companies >carry X-Press' :-). Of course, Looneyville is one of the last remaining holdouts >of the 19th century, so maybe we are the only place in the US without this >service. It doesn't take a holdout of the 19th century (??I wouldn't describe Louisville that way.. Lexington's much more 19th century, and other parts of Kentucky are even more so.. but this is just a little digression from an ex-kentuckyian) .. Mountain View CA's cable system doesn't have it either. (ARGH!) Well, I asked 'em to send me some information so I can start bugging the cable system into getting this thing. It's a natural for the sort of people that're around here ... -- <- David Herron, an MMDF weenie, <david@twg.com> <- Formerly: David Herron -- NonResident E-Mail Hack <david@ms.uky.edu> <- <- Sign me up for one "I survived Jaka's Story" T-shirt!