bbs00068@uafcseg.uucp (Joel Kolstad) (07/14/90)
Has anybody out there used this program, called "Board Master," by Black Belt
Systems? It's supposed to be a PCD layout program for the Amiga, and a local
dealer, who knew nothing about it except how to order it on a no-return basis,
says that it's only $90.
What I want to know is just what it does... I assume you get to draw
schematics, but what else? Printer support? Laser printers? Plotters?
Does it have an auto-router?
Any information on this would be appreciated. Also, does anybody know Black
Belt's address/telephone number? Please address replies to kolstad@cae.wisc.
edu. Thanks!
---Joel Kolstadarc@desire.wright.edu (07/14/90)
In article <4914@uafhp.uark.edu>, bbs00068@uafcseg.uucp (Joel Kolstad) writes: > Has anybody out there used this program, called "Board Master," by Black Belt > Systems? It's supposed to be a PCD layout program for the Amiga, and a local > dealer, who knew nothing about it except how to order it on a no-return basis, > says that it's only $90. > > What I want to know is just what it does... I assume you get to draw > schematics, but what else? Printer support? Laser printers? Plotters? > Does it have an auto-router? > > Any information on this would be appreciated. Also, does anybody know Black > Belt's address/telephone number? Please address replies to kolstad@cae.wisc. > edu. Thanks! > > ---Joel Kolstad I have used that once before. I think it does support plotters... AND OF COURSE printers, AREXX, and has darn good PCB layering. Pretty professional. I think you need about 1.5 meg. to run it. I ran it on a 3 meg machine, wouldn't run in my 1 meg (FATTER AGNUS!) 500... Oh well! I think it's worth it. I would buy it if I needed to do PCB work... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ = /// | Jim Perry | Arc@Desire.Wright.edu = = /// Amiga! | ^Communications Consultant| -or- = = \XX/ The One | Arc Electronics, Inc. | Arc@WSU.BITNET = = ____& Only... | Wright State University |"Ouch! Quit-it." - Bart= = | Dayton, Ohio | Frank Sinatra Rules = ========================================================================
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (07/14/90)
In <31730@cup.portal.com>, thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >arc@desire.wright.edu in <826.269edadd@desire.wright.edu> writes regarding >"Board Master": > > I have used that once before. I think it does support plotters... > AND OF COURSE printers, AREXX, and has darn good PCB layering. Pretty > professional. I think you need about 1.5 meg. to run it. I ran it on > a 3 meg machine, wouldn't run in my 1 meg (FATTER AGNUS!) 500... Oh > well! I think it's worth it. I would buy it if I needed to do PCB > work... > >Well, just don't expect to lay down footprints for items such as DB-25 RS-232 >connectors and anything else whose pin spacing is not a multiple of .025". > >For reference, pin spacing on DB-25 connectors is .108" to .109" (depending >whose spec sheets you read). > >"Board Master" is the successor to "PCLO", and has the same author who, back >then, was named C. "Ben" Blish and lived in Florida. PCLO used to cost $1,000. >One of my companies was "burned" buying PCLO; it's not a useable product for >any "real" PC board layout (and I had every version from the first beta test >to the final production distribution). Sometime over the past several years >(since 1986) Blish changed his name, his company's name (used to be named >SoftCircuits, Inc.; it's now Black Belt Systems) and moved to, I believe, the >Dakotas where Black Belt Systems is presently located. A lawyer checked this >out on behalf of the company (and, no, it was determined not to pursue any >legal action). He is currently living in Glasgow, Montana. The company name was not changed. SoftCircuits is no more. It does not exist. Softcircuits was put out of business when it was screwed over by Southern Tech and C Ltd. SoftCircuits was Ben's company; Black Belt Systems is not. He changed his own name for other reasons, having to do with his interests in the book publishing field, and after marrying, and taking the maiden name of his wife, Anne Williams. I mention this to forstall any thoughts of chicanery on his part. At _NO_ time did he attempt hide any of the changes, and in fact talks about it quite openly on Compuserve, where he maintains a subsection of the AmigaVendor forum, originally as SoftCircuits and now as Black Belt Systems. While I too asked for certain features to be added to PCLO, he quite clearly stated that it would not happen. At no time did I consider any of his actions to be in any way dishonest. >What really galled me was that Blish said both of "bend the pins of your >connectors to fit the board's holes" (sheesh) and "use layout tape to route >where the program cannot." (double sheesh, why use a computer at all?) BTW, >neither PCLO nor "Board Master" does any semblance of "auto routing." And, >BTW, I have tape recordings of my telephone conversations with him, so he's >not gonna weasel out of THIS. > >Check it out BEFORE you buy. If all you're doing are simple "home-type" layouts >it may satisfy your needs. But don't expect to lay out a motherboard for >something like a small computer. I have designed several boards with PCLO, despite the limitations. As you say, it is not up to the standards of some of the professional (and professionally priced) products for the IBM and clones, but bears looking at, limitations and all. >If you want to do "more or less" professional layouts, get the PRO-NET and >PRO-BOARD products for the Amiga. PRO-NET does schematic capture, etc. and >PRO-BOARD does the layouts. PRO-NET/-BOARD is a useable product, but still >not as sophisticated as some of the products I've seen on "IBM-PC" machines. I have the demos, but never bought. Has the price come down at all? -larry -- The raytracer of justice recurses slowly, but it renders exceedingly fine. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) (07/15/90)
arc@desire.wright.edu in <826.269edadd@desire.wright.edu> writes regarding "Board Master": I have used that once before. I think it does support plotters... AND OF COURSE printers, AREXX, and has darn good PCB layering. Pretty professional. I think you need about 1.5 meg. to run it. I ran it on a 3 meg machine, wouldn't run in my 1 meg (FATTER AGNUS!) 500... Oh well! I think it's worth it. I would buy it if I needed to do PCB work... Well, just don't expect to lay down footprints for items such as DB-25 RS-232 connectors and anything else whose pin spacing is not a multiple of .025". For reference, pin spacing on DB-25 connectors is .108" to .109" (depending whose spec sheets you read). "Board Master" is the successor to "PCLO", and has the same author who, back then, was named C. "Ben" Blish and lived in Florida. PCLO used to cost $1,000. One of my companies was "burned" buying PCLO; it's not a useable product for any "real" PC board layout (and I had every version from the first beta test to the final production distribution). Sometime over the past several years (since 1986) Blish changed his name, his company's name (used to be named SoftCircuits, Inc.; it's now Black Belt Systems) and moved to, I believe, the Dakotas where Black Belt Systems is presently located. A lawyer checked this out on behalf of the company (and, no, it was determined not to pursue any legal action). What really galled me was that Blish said both of "bend the pins of your connectors to fit the board's holes" (sheesh) and "use layout tape to route where the program cannot." (double sheesh, why use a computer at all?) BTW, neither PCLO nor "Board Master" does any semblance of "auto routing." And, BTW, I have tape recordings of my telephone conversations with him, so he's not gonna weasel out of THIS. Check it out BEFORE you buy. If all you're doing are simple "home-type" layouts it may satisfy your needs. But don't expect to lay out a motherboard for something like a small computer. If you want to do "more or less" professional layouts, get the PRO-NET and PRO-BOARD products for the Amiga. PRO-NET does schematic capture, etc. and PRO-BOARD does the layouts. PRO-NET/-BOARD is a useable product, but still not as sophisticated as some of the products I've seen on "IBM-PC" machines. Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ]
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (07/17/90)
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: >I have designed several boards with PCLO, despite the limitations. As you say, >it is not up to the standards of some of the professional (and professionally >priced) products for the IBM and clones, but bears looking at, limitations and >all. Er, wasn't PCLO priced around $1,000? Sounds pretty 'professionally priced' itself, eh? I looked at it long ago but didn't want to spend that much, and not even have auto-routing. Or I guess I should say 'smart' auto-routing. I seem to recall that PCLO would draw the trace when you clicked on two end pads, and it would draw the shortest line between the pads, moving around any other pads and traces. But that was about all it did. And after running about ten or so traces you would find that you had a few pads that you couldn't get to and had to re-run some of the previous traces again. (I played with the demo version [save disabled] that went around several years ago) It seemed fun and useful for smaller projects, but not $1000 fun. Maybe $100-$125 -- John Sparks | | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 2400bps. sparks@corpane.UUCP | | PH: (502) 968-DISK A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of. - Ogden Nash
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (07/18/90)
In article <31730@cup.portal.com> thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: >If you want to do "more or less" professional layouts, get the PRO-NET and >PRO-BOARD products for the Amiga. PRO-NET does schematic capture, etc. and >PRO-BOARD does the layouts. PRO-NET/-BOARD is a useable product, but still >not as sophisticated as some of the products I've seen on "IBM-PC" machines. I would agree with that. I have used both PRO-NET and PRO-BOARD, and found them acceptible, though not fantastic. PRO-NET is on a par with some of the PC-based programs in the same price range, though you can certainly get much better PC-based program with additional money. The main advantage of PRO-NET over the majority of the PC-based network editors is that it can use as much memory as you can put in your Amiga, where many of the PC-based programs only work with 640K of memory. You're still pretty limited as to the size of an individual sheet, however, so you're going to get a little annoyed with this tool if you're trying to draw A3000 motherboards or something like that with it. Ironically, the machines we did the A3000 motherboard schematics with, a network of Apollo 3000s (68020 machines) running Mentor Graphics' NetEd software, are noticably slower than an A2500/30 or A3000. Which goes to show you just how the software can often be the factor that decides your hardware, if you have real work to do. As for PRO-BOARD, it's certainly adequate for simple PCBs, something less than or equal to a 4 layer PCB with standard traces (one trace between pins), no inner-layer traces, and standard 0.100 grid parts. You can actually set up pads for surface mount parts or others that aren't on-grid, at least to a degree, but you have to enter the numbers by hand, rather than graphically. TINAR, though I did write up reviews of both PRO-NET and PRO-BOARD a year or two ago in the now-defunct Amiga Sentry magazine. >Thad Floryan [ thad@cup.portal.com (OR) ..!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad ] -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I have been given the freedom to do as I see fit" -REM
lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) (07/20/90)
In <2609@corpane.UUCP>, sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) writes: >lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca (Larry Phillips) writes: > > >>I have designed several boards with PCLO, despite the limitations. As you say, >>it is not up to the standards of some of the professional (and professionally >>priced) products for the IBM and clones, but bears looking at, limitations and >>all. > >Er, wasn't PCLO priced around $1,000? Sounds pretty 'professionally priced' >itself, eh? I looked at it long ago but didn't want to spend that much, and >not even have auto-routing. Or I guess I should say 'smart' auto-routing. >I seem to recall that PCLO would draw the trace when you clicked on two >end pads, and it would draw the shortest line between the pads, moving around >any other pads and traces. But that was about all it did. And after running >about ten or so traces you would find that you had a few pads that you couldn't >get to and had to re-run some of the previous traces again. (I played with the >demo version [save disabled] that went around several years ago) > >It seemed fun and useful for smaller projects, but not $1000 fun. >Maybe $100-$125 It started out as a $1000 package. When PCLO+ arrived, it was priced lower, and PCLO took a corresponding price decrease. I can't remember what I paid for it, but it was certainly a small fraction of $1000. BoardMaster, the current incarnation of PCLO+ is priced, I think, at about $100. Laying down traces without getting yourself 'etched into a corner' took a little doing. Knowing the idiosyncracies of the program helped a lot. A trace would take a slightly different route when you routed it in the opposite direction. You could also use a few techniques, like routing through an intermediate point, or putting in temporary elements to force a route to take a longer path, leaving you room for the problem traces. I haven't played with BoardMaster, but it now has a full ARexx interface, allowing you yo 'read' the layout and to lay down circuit elements via ARexx script. It was indeed fun for me. I did a complete A1000 2 meg memory board with it (yes, I consider that a small project). -larry -- The raytracer of justice recurses slowly, but it renders exceedingly fine. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | // Larry Phillips | | \X/ lphillips@lpami.wimsey.bc.ca -or- uunet!van-bc!lpami!lphillips | | COMPUSERVE: 76703,4322 -or- 76703.4322@compuserve.com | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+