TSA91@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (07/17/90)
In the discussion about improving the Amiga's graphics, it has
become apparent that some people want to turn the Amiga into a MAC II
clone. Commodore should not do this. If Commodore just turns the Amiga
into a clone of the MAC II, people will just buy genuine MAC II systems.
The discussion about improving the Amiga has centered around the idea
of adding 24 (or even 32) bitplane graphics modes to the Amiga. I, for
one, do not think this should be done. To add such resolution modes
would just turn the Amiga into a clone of the MAC II, and sacrifice any
edge that the Amiga has in animation capabilities.
IMHO, what Commodore should do is improve the Amiga's color capability
without sacrificing in any way the Amiga's edge in animation capability.
The best way to do this is not with 24 or 32-bitplanes, but with 10
bitplanes. Yes, *10* bitplanes. By adding a 10-bitplane HAM mode
with a resolution of at least 1024x768, the Amiga will have color
capabilities the equal of the MAC II, and animation capabilities that
nobody could even match, let alone beat.
The HAM mode, as it is now, has one main disadvantage: the color
'fringing'that results from the HAM mode's inability to make sharp
color transitions. This can be allevaited substantially by increasing
the number of registers and the horizontal resolution. A 10-bitplane
HAM mode would have 256 registers, enough to alleviate the color
fringing substantially. Increasing the horizontal resolution of the
HAM mode would also cause the fringing to be far less noticeable.
Having a 10-bitplane HAM mode would prove to be an enourmous
tactical advantage for the Amiga. Apple and IBM could match it
in color capability, but the could never beat it in animation. For
them to match its color capability would require 24-bitplanes on
those systems, requiring almost three times the memory per frame
and more than three times the processor power to do animation.
-MB-Radagast@cup.portal.com (sullivan - segall) (07/18/90)
> The HAM mode, as it is now, has one main disadvantage: the color >'fringing'that results from the HAM mode's inability to make sharp >color transitions. This can be allevaited substantially by increasing >the number of registers and the horizontal resolution. A 10-bitplane >HAM mode would have 256 registers, enough to alleviate the color >fringing substantially. Increasing the horizontal resolution of the >HAM mode would also cause the fringing to be far less noticeable. Sorry to nitpick, but 10-bitplanes using the current system would result in 64 palette registers. Use 12-bitplanes for 256. All things being equal though, it would be kind of nice to see a hacked Denise that was capable of clocking in signals from two agnuses. I see it now: "AmigaMOS 4.0 / The first commercially available Multi-Tasking machine." (2 680x0's each running at 7.14MHz, and a doubleclocked memory bus plus a couple of singleclocked card slots for those slower cards.) Let's see, the current memory is 120ns, plus about 30ns propagation delay (or so) for a rough 150ns cycle time. Halve that and you get 75ns (less 30 ns for propagation delay) and you'd only need 45ns RAMS to make it work. Eeeek! > > Having a 10-bitplane HAM mode would prove to be an enourmous >tactical advantage for the Amiga. Apple and IBM could match it >in color capability, but the could never beat it in animation. For >them to match its color capability would require 24-bitplanes on >those systems, requiring almost three times the memory per frame >and more than three times the processor power to do animation. > I think there will be acceptable solutions available shortly. Both the BlackBox, and the DCTV card (not to be confused with CDTV) use acceptable amounts of storage for an image. (The DCTV does an impressive job even with 2bit-planes of high-res data.) To borrow a phrase: If you don't like the hardware, wait a month. It will change. -Sullivan Segall (a.k.a. Radagast) _________________________________________________________________ /V\ Sullivan was the first to learn how to jump without moving. ' Is it not proper that the student should surpass the teacher? To Quote the immortal Socrates: "I drank what?" _________________________________________________________________ Mail to: ...sun!portal!cup.portal.com!radagast or radagast@cup.portal.com
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (07/18/90)
In article <24825@snow-white.udel.EDU> TSA91@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > The discussion about improving the Amiga has centered around the idea >of adding 24 (or even 32) bitplane graphics modes to the Amiga. I, for >one, do not think this should be done. To add such resolution modes >would just turn the Amiga into a clone of the MAC II, and sacrifice any >edge that the Amiga has in animation capabilities. I don't think only the MAC II is able to do 24-bit graphics. So this single criterium wouldn't make the Amiga a MAC clone already. > The HAM mode, as it is now, has one main disadvantage: the color >'fringing'that results from the HAM mode's inability to make sharp >color transitions. This can be allevaited substantially by increasing >the number of registers and the horizontal resolution. A 10-bitplane >HAM mode would have 256 registers, enough to alleviate the color >fringing substantially. Increasing the horizontal resolution of the >HAM mode would also cause the fringing to be far less noticeable. I fiddled a bit with the numbers. If you leave the resolution for every color at 4 bits (which gives still 4096 colors total), then you could do another nice trick with 10-bitplane HAM: Instead of changing only one of the three colors, you now could change 2 for every pixel! To figure it out: to select 2 colors (to change) out of 3 gives again 3 possibilities (12, 13, 23) plus one Null term for no change ( = direct color table). So again 2 bits do for selection of these 4 cases, leaving 2 x 4 bits in 10 bitplanes for the new color values. This would make 4096 color HAM pictures nearly flawless. And when they in (far?) future make the Amiga custom chips really 32-bit, they should be able to double bandwidth making these more bitplanes possible. Would be really nice. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ rutgers!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (07/19/90)
TSA91@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > In the discussion about improving the Amiga's graphics, it has >become apparent that some people want to turn the Amiga into a MAC II >clone. Commodore should not do this. If Commodore just turns the Amiga >into a clone of the MAC II, people will just buy genuine MAC II systems. > The discussion about improving the Amiga has centered around the idea >of adding 24 (or even 32) bitplane graphics modes to the Amiga. I, for >one, do not think this should be done. To add such resolution modes >would just turn the Amiga into a clone of the MAC II, and sacrifice any >edge that the Amiga has in animation capabilities. ARRGHHH [pulling my hair out]! Gee Marc, those 'some people want to turn the Amiga into a MAC II clone' sound an awful lot like ****YOU****. That's all we've been hearing about from you is how great the MAC is and how CBM needs to get up off their ass and make the Amiga 24 bit graphics like the MAC. Now you say that you don't think this is such a good idea, and make it look like OTHERS have been the ones saying this. While others have been, SO HAVE YOU!!! SHEEESH!! Now that that's off my chest, on with the show. I would love 24 Bit graphics too. Or a super HAM mode like you suggested. But I will wait. CBM seems to be really doing a lot with the Amiga lately, coming out with Amigavision, ECS, and the 3000, and the CD-TV. I am sure that they will be working on improving the graphics soon. But I hope they can add 24 bit graphics. It's more standard (in the world at large) than HAM. Of course 24 Bit graphics will eat up memory like crazy, and storage space (unless it's stored compressed somehow). But I bet 24 bit will be easier to handle and less CPU intensive then a super HAM mode. -- John Sparks | | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 2400bps. sparks@corpane.UUCP | | PH: (502) 968-DISK A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of. - Ogden Nash
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (07/20/90)
In-Reply-To: message from peterk@cbmger.UUCP Also...even when 24bit display adapters are commonplace on the Amiga, HAM mode will still have its place. HAM gives the entry level graphics user some really nice graphics capabilities, and for the professional user, they can make test ANIMs in HAM of their 24bit stuff for client approval. This would be alot better than showing them 24bit key-scenes, or realtime wireframe test runs. Sean //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | " Fanatics have their INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | dreams, wherewith they | weave a paradise for RealWorld: Sean Cunningham | a sect. " Voice: (512) 994-1602 PLINK: ce3k* | -Keats | Call C.B.A.U.G. BBS (512) 883-8351 w/SkyPix | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
wizard@sosaria.imp.com (Chris Brand) (07/21/90)
In article <24825@snow-white.udel.EDU> TSA91@ccvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) says: > > In the discussion about improving the Amiga's graphics, it has > become apparent that some people want to turn the Amiga into a MAC II > clone. Commodore should not do this. If Commodore just turns the Amiga > into a clone of the MAC II, people will just buy genuine MAC II systems. I didn't see anybody requesting this. > > The discussion about improving the Amiga has centered around the idea > of adding 24 (or even 32) bitplane graphics modes to the Amiga. I, for > one, do not think this should be done. To add such resolution modes > would just turn the Amiga into a clone of the MAC II, and sacrifice any > edge that the Amiga has in animation capabilities. Not at all. Just because two computer systems can display the same amount of colors they are not identical. And WHAT animation capabilities are you referring to? Try to make an animation that is a bit more complex that a word of text using 1/8 of the screen with 1 bitplane rotating around an axis and you'll very soon see that all this real time stuff is not THAT good, for professional looking, complex animations you can't use it anyway. Just one example: Have you seen the Warner logo? The Text floating in from behind the observer? I've tried to do that with Sculpt 4D. To get a real good display you have to go to hires and then it's all finished with great animation capabilities (this was on a 2620-equipped Amiga). > IMHO, what Commodore should do is improve the Amiga's color capability > without sacrificing in any way the Amiga's edge in animation capability. > The best way to do this is not with 24 or 32-bitplanes, but with 10 > bitplanes. Yes, *10* bitplanes. By adding a 10-bitplane HAM mode > with a resolution of at least 1024x768, the Amiga will have color > capabilities the equal of the MAC II, and animation capabilities that > nobody could even match, let alone beat. This would be another strange graphic mode that nobody except Commodore has and supports (er, should support). No, the Amiga needs the STANDARD of graphics, and the standard for a so called graphics machine is 24bit, nothing less. But I agree that such a resolution would already be a great improvement. > > The HAM mode, as it is now, has one main disadvantage: the color > 'fringing'that results from the HAM mode's inability to make sharp > color transitions. This can be allevaited substantially by increasing > the number of registers and the horizontal resolution. A 10-bitplane > HAM mode would have 256 registers, enough to alleviate the color > fringing substantially. Increasing the horizontal resolution of the > HAM mode would also cause the fringing to be far less noticeable. Yes. HAM mode is so far no good at all, except for fast moving Raytracing animations where you don't have the time to see the fringes. > Having a 10-bitplane HAM mode would prove to be an enourmous > tactical advantage for the Amiga. Apple and IBM could match it > in color capability, but the could never beat it in animation. For And how do you want to do this? If you want this resolution, you need a new graphics card, the the standard blitter is never fast enough to move such graphics. And if we need a new graphics card I'd very much prefer to see a cheap transputer board such as the SANG board WITH 24 bit. > them to match its color capability would require 24-bitplanes on > those systems, requiring almost three times the memory per frame > and more than three times the processor power to do animation. > > > -MB- Yes, but people who need this are not concerned by this. Forget realtime animation for professional looking results. Sooner or later you just will need a single frame recorder, and then it's not very much important anymore if a frame uses 100 K more or less. -- ------------------------------------ Chris Brand - wizard@sosaria.imp.com "Justice is the possession and doing of what one is entitled to" - Platon ------------------------------------
wizard@sosaria.imp.com (Chris Brand) (07/24/90)
In article <3615@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) says: > Also...even when 24bit display adapters are commonplace on the Amiga, HAM mode > will still have its place. > > HAM gives the entry level graphics user some really nice graphics > capabilities, and for the professional user, they can make test ANIMs in HAM > of their 24bit stuff for client approval. This would be alot better than > showing them 24bit key-scenes, or realtime wireframe test runs. I agree. As a preview mode, HAM is ok, but not for more. -- ------------------------------------ Chris Brand - wizard@sosaria.imp.com "Justice is the possession and doing of what one is entitled to" - Platon ------------------------------------