krooglik@gondwana11.ecr.mu.oz (Alex KROOGLIK) (07/05/90)
Everyone knows that in Australia we have PAL and in the U.S. you have NTSC. Now, I am going to import my 3000 from the U.S. to escape the phenomonal sales taxes over here in Oz and I am not looking forward to having to watch an NTSC screen. What I want to know is if the video chips in a 3000 would be replacable with PAL compatible ones once in Australia? If you can help me with the dilemma, please E-Mail me: krooglik@128.250.64.1 krooglik@gondwana20.ecr.mu.oz.OZ.AU This is a question of urgency...
peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) (07/06/90)
In article <4741@munnari.oz.au> krooglik@gondwana11.ecr.mu.oz (Alex KROOGLIK) writes: > > Everyone knows that in Australia we have PAL and in the U.S. you have >NTSC. Now, I am going to import my 3000 from the U.S. to escape the >phenomonal sales taxes over here in Oz and I am not looking forward to having >to watch an NTSC screen. What I want to know is if the video chips in a 3000 >would be replacable with PAL compatible ones once in Australia? The ECS chipset is capable of both NTSC and PAL. In the A3000, there is a jumper to select the mode of the machine. On A2000's with ECS, I think you have to cut a trace/add a wire to do the same thing. So to summarize, you do not have to replace your video chips to convert an NTSC 3000 to PAL or vice-versa. > If you can help me with the dilemma, please E-Mail me: > > krooglik@128.250.64.1 > krooglik@gondwana20.ecr.mu.oz.OZ.AU Peter -- Peter Cherna, Software Engineer, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!peter peter@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com My opinions do not necessarily represent the opinions of my employer. "This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (07/06/90)
In article <13060@cbmvax.commodore.com> peter@cbmvax (Peter Cherna) writes: >On A2000's with ECS, I think you have to cut a trace/add a wire to do the >same thing. The A2000 also has a jumper, J102, but it's what we call a PCB jumper instead of a strip-post jumper. The strip post jumper, such as J200 on the A3000 which controls PAL/NTSC power-up, has a shunt block that's easy for a user to move by hand (providing you have small hands, at least). The PCB jumper is made of two metal pads with a thin wire connecting them. To pick PAL, you cut the wire, to pick NTSC, you drop a blob of solder between the two pads, provided that it had once been cut. Basically, the PCB jumper is supposed to be the kind of thing that's set up once and left that way. Much like cutting a trace, only, it's an intentional trace cut, not a mistake. > Peter > "The Boing! Award Winning" Peter Cherna, Software Engineer, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "I have been given the freedom to do as I see fit" -REM
rsbx@cbmvax.commodore.com (Raymond S. Brand) (07/06/90)
In article <13060@cbmvax.commodore.com>, peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) writes: > In article <4741@munnari.oz.au> krooglik@gondwana11.ecr.mu.oz (Alex KROOGLIK) writes: > > > > Everyone knows that in Australia we have PAL and in the U.S. you have > >NTSC. Now, I am going to import my 3000 from the U.S. to escape the > >phenomonal sales taxes over here in Oz and I am not looking forward to having > >to watch an NTSC screen. What I want to know is if the video chips in a 3000 > >would be replacable with PAL compatible ones once in Australia? > > The ECS chipset is capable of both NTSC and PAL. In the A3000, there is > a jumper to select the mode of the machine. On A2000's with ECS, I think > you have to cut a trace/add a wire to do the same thing. So to summarize, > you do not have to replace your video chips to convert an NTSC 3000 to > PAL or vice-versa. > > > If you can help me with the dilemma, please E-Mail me: > > > > krooglik@128.250.64.1 > > krooglik@gondwana20.ecr.mu.oz.OZ.AU > > Peter > Note: changing the jumper only gets you a PAL like machine if it was built to be an NTSC machine (same applies the other way around also). The video will be only slightly off spec but close enough; however, anything that is based on the master crystal will still be clocking at the NTSC rate. This includes things like the CIAs (used by timer.device), the audio hardware and the processor. rsbx ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Raymond S. Brand rsbx@cbmvax.commodore.com Commodore-Amiga Engineering ...!uunet!cbmvax!rsbx 1200 Wilson Drive (215)-431-9100 West Chester PA 19380 "Looking" ------------------------------------------------------------------------
hood@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Hood) (07/06/90)
In article <4741@munnari.oz.au> krooglik@gondwana11.ecr.mu.oz (Alex KROOGLIK) writes: > > Everyone knows that in Australia we have PAL and in the U.S. you have >NTSC. Now, I am going to import my 3000 from the U.S. to escape the >phenomonal sales taxes over here in Oz and I am not looking forward to having >to watch an NTSC screen. What I want to know is if the video chips in a 3000 >would be replacable with PAL compatible ones once in Australia? > > > If you can help me with the dilemma, please E-Mail me: > > krooglik@128.250.64.1 > krooglik@gondwana20.ecr.mu.oz.OZ.AU > > > This is a question of urgency... Alex, The A3000 can run under both NTSC and PAL video rates and is selectable from the screenmode program in the prefs drawer. You must have the PAL icon in your wbstartup drawer on power up or double-click on this icon in the monitor drawer. Scott Hood
SRWMCLN@windy.dsir.govt.nz (Clive Nicolson) (07/06/90)
In article <13060@cbmvax.commodore.com>, peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) writes: > The ECS chipset is capable of both NTSC and PAL. In the A3000, there is > a jumper to select the mode of the machine. On A2000's with ECS, I think > you have to cut a trace/add a wire to do the same thing. So to summarize, > you do not have to replace your video chips to convert an NTSC 3000 to > PAL or vice-versa. But does the jumper change the colour sub carrier frequency too, or just the number of lines. That is exactly what does the jumper change. Clive.
grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) (07/06/90)
In article <16713@windy.dsir.govt.nz> SRWMCLN@windy.dsir.govt.nz (Clive Nicolson) writes: > In article <13060@cbmvax.commodore.com>, peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) writes: > > The ECS chipset is capable of both NTSC and PAL. In the A3000, there is > > a jumper to select the mode of the machine. On A2000's with ECS, I think > > you have to cut a trace/add a wire to do the same thing. So to summarize, > > you do not have to replace your video chips to convert an NTSC 3000 to > > PAL or vice-versa. > > But does the jumper change the colour sub carrier frequency too, or just the > number of lines. That is exactly what does the jumper change. NO... The "subcarrier frequency" or more properly the system clock frequency is determined by the frequency of a crystal oscillator on the main board. For NTSC it's 16*Fsc, while for PAL it's 16*(Fsc*4/5). For one reason or another, these numbers are about 28 Mhz and within 1% of each other so it doesn't make a whole lot of difference....*except* if you are trying to generate composite video, where a 1% error in reference frequency is way out of the ballpark. The jumper changes 1 bit in the Agnus ID read register and determines the initial state of the PAL/NTSC bit in the BEAMCON0 write register. The rest is up to the software. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing: domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com Commodore, Engineering Department phone: 215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)
p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) (07/08/90)
In article <16713@windy.dsir.govt.nz> SRWMCLN@windy.dsir.govt.nz (Clive Nicolson) writes: >In article <13060@cbmvax.commodore.com>, peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) writes: >> The ECS chipset is capable of both NTSC and PAL. In the A3000, there is >But does the jumper change the colour sub carrier frequency too, or just the >number of lines. That is exactly what does the jumper change. As far as I know, neither the A2000 nor the A3000 are producing a composite video signal that could contain a colour sub carrier. Their output are separate R,G and B signals. The differences between PAL and NTSC modes are timing differences only. -- Michael van Elst UUCP: universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) (07/09/90)
In article <1091@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> p554mve@mpirbn.UUCP (Michael van Elst) writes: > In article <16713@windy.dsir.govt.nz> SRWMCLN@windy.dsir.govt.nz (Clive Nicolson) writes: > >In article <13060@cbmvax.commodore.com>, peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) writes: > >> The ECS chipset is capable of both NTSC and PAL. In the A3000, there is > >But does the jumper change the colour sub carrier frequency too, or just the > >number of lines. That is exactly what does the jumper change. > > As far as I know, neither the A2000 nor the A3000 are producing a > composite video signal that could contain a colour sub carrier. > Their output are separate R,G and B signals. The differences between > PAL and NTSC modes are timing differences only. Ah, but both machines do provide one of the ~3.58 MHz clock phases as a reference signal for the video slot, which might contain either a color encoder or some other video toy. Even if used with some external color encoder, it might be a good idea to have video and sync running pretty close to spec, though I'm not sure how much this would matter for most applications. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing: domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com Commodore, Engineering Department phone: 215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (07/09/90)
In article <13076@cbmvax.commodore.com> grr@cbmvax (George Robbins) writes: > >The "subcarrier frequency" or more properly the system clock frequency is >determined by the frequency of a crystal oscillator on the main board. For >NTSC it's 16*Fsc, while for PAL it's 16*(Fsc*4/5). For one reason or another, >these numbers are about 28 Mhz and within 1% of each other so it doesn't >make a whole lot of difference....*except* if you are trying to generate >composite video, where a 1% error in reference frequency is way out of the >ballpark. Heaven help! Does that mean that if we in Europe want to do video stuff, we still have to build other mother boards with a different crystal? 1 % difference wouldn't be tolerable! -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ rutgers!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
mlelstv@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Michael van Elst ) (07/16/90)
grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) writes: >In article <1091@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> p554mve@mpirbn.UUCP (Michael van Elst) writes: >> As far as I know, neither the A2000 nor the A3000 are producing a >> composite video signal that could contain a colour sub carrier. >> Their output are separate R,G and B signals. The differences between >> PAL and NTSC modes are timing differences only. >Ah, but both machines do provide one of the ~3.58 MHz clock phases as a >reference signal for the video slot, which might contain either a color >encoder or some other video toy. PAL specs don't say anything about phase relationship between sync signals and color burst. And the color is the phase shift between color sub carrier modulated onto the video signal and the color burst signal. I believe it's the same in NTSC. Of course, the video clock (~3.58MHz) can be used to generate a color sub carrier. The C= RGB/PAL converter does this (I tried to use it with another computer but had to add a crystal to get it to work). Michael van Elst p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
mlelstv@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Michael van Elst ) (07/16/90)
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >Heaven help! Does that mean that if we in Europe want to do video stuff, >we still have to build other mother boards with a different crystal? >1 % difference wouldn't be tolerable! Yes, 1% difference wouldn't be tolerable. But in Europe we have the far better PAL system. The color is determined from the phase shift between the color burst and the modulated color sub carrier. If both are generated from the same crystal, you can have much higher tolerances against the PAL specs. Nevertheless, cheap PAL decoders could fail if they avoid the proper PLL curcuit and just phase shift another crystal's signal to match the color burst. Michael van Elst p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
rumford@afitamy.fidonet.org (Don Rumford) (07/24/90)
>> you do not have to replace your video chips to convert an > NTSC 3000 to >> PAL or vice-versa. >> > Note: changing the jumper only gets you a PAL like machine > if it was built to > be an NTSC machine (same applies the other way around also). > The video will be > only slightly off spec but close enough; however, anything > that is based on > the master crystal will still be clocking at the NTSC rate. > This includes > things like the CIAs (used by timer.device), the audio > hardware and the > processor. > rsbx Ray, Thank you.....I was tormenting myself trying to figure out how th ECS could do all that. -Don- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Rumford - via FidoNet node 1:110/300 UUCP: afitamy!rumford ARPA: rumford@afitamy.fidonet.org ---------> The AFIT Amiga Users BBS/UFGateway Dayton, Oh. 1:110/300 Give me Amiga or give me boredom! <-----------------------------------
root@dialog.stgt.sub.org (Christian Motz) (07/25/90)
In article <3003@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> mlelstv@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Michael van Elst ) writes: > >PAL specs don't say anything about phase relationship between sync signals >and color burst. And the color is the phase shift between color sub carrier >modulated onto the video signal and the color burst signal. I believe it's >the same in NTSC. I don't think this is quite accurate. As far as I know, the color subcarrier and the horizontal sync signal are coupled with regard to phase. Since the color burst is nothing else but that very color subcarrier keyed in during horizontal blanking, you actually do have a relationship between the two. A note on the side: The differences between PAL and NTSC do not lie within the basic principles, but the implementation. PAL uses a nice scheme to get rid of phase shifts that occur between the camera and the TV set. For this, it trades some of the accuracy and brilliance of the colors. But the basic concept of how to get the color into the picture is exactly the same. >Of course, the video clock (~3.58MHz) can be used to generate a color >sub carrier. The C= RGB/PAL converter does this (I tried to use it with >another computer but had to add a crystal to get it to work). Yes, but it cannot be used directly to generate one. The principle here is that you use it with a PLL to lock the 4. 43 MHz PAL color oscillator in phase with all the rest of the circuitry. As a matter of fact, this should be the exact way how the A520 does it. -- Christian Motz root@dialog.stgt.sub.org