BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (07/23/90)
There has been some discussion here lately about the ethics of keeping
and distributing demos written by European cracking/copying groups. I
would like to add my $0.02 (US) worth by saying that I almost have to
agree with both sides on this issue.
I downloaded the 'Cryptoburners MegaDemo II' from Xanth, and was very
impressed by it. The filled-vector animation is too much to believe.
While Apple and IBM are scrambling to make full-motion animation possible
on their systems (by using 25Mhz '030s, megabytes of RAM, and optical
disks), this demo demonstrates that full-motion animation is possible
on a lowly 7Mhz 1M Amiga 500.
Although I was impressed by the animation of this demo, I was very
put off by the blatant remarks about software cracking/copying 'parties'
referred to in this demo. The writers in this demo go as far as to
complain about the Norwegian police 'spoiling' one of their 'parties'.
I can't say I'm very sympathetic with the people who arranged and
attended this party.
These European groups are not 100% responsible for their actions,
though, as they are a product of the European system. Software piracy
is legal in most parts of Europe, and the widespread software piracy
there is the ultimate fault of the European governments. If they
want to curb piracy, they ought to pass laws to make it illegal. Until
they do, they can't blame these groups for taking advantage of the
legality of software theft.
Software theft is somewhat analogous to gun control. In many parts
of the world (such as Japan), guns are illegal to own, and therefore
the distribution of guns isn't all that much of a problem in these
countries. In the U.S., most guns are legal, and the misuse and abuse
of guns is a real problem (to say the least). But you can't blame
people who own guns in the U.S., because they are doing what is
perfectly legal. For the same reason, you can't blame these European
groups too much, because they are doing what their governments (by
inaction) has said is perfectly right and fine.
-MB-bjornk@bula.se (Bjorn Knutsson) (07/23/90)
In article <25337@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: [Stuff about a European demo deleted] > Although I was impressed by the animation of this demo, I was very >put off by the blatant remarks about software cracking/copying 'parties' >referred to in this demo. The writers in this demo go as far as to >complain about the Norwegian police 'spoiling' one of their 'parties'. >I can't say I'm very sympathetic with the people who arranged and >attended this party. Well, you're not the only one. > These European groups are not 100% responsible for their actions, >though, as they are a product of the European system. Software piracy >is legal in most parts of Europe, and the widespread software piracy >there is the ultimate fault of the European governments. If they >want to curb piracy, they ought to pass laws to make it illegal. Until >they do, they can't blame these groups for taking advantage of the >legality of software theft. You say that piracy is legal in "most parts of Europe". Ok, fine, name those parts. I can't think of any part, except perhaps parts of Eastern Europe (I really don't know), where piracy is legal. However, while piracy is illegal, there's still a lot of piracy going on. But on the other hand, I belive the possession of drugs is an offence in the USA. Does that keep CRIMINALS from possessing and selling drugs in the USA? I belive not. Another interesting point is: Where do many pirating Europeans go to get their pirated copies of games? Yes, you're right: Bulletin Board Systems in the USA. Swedish newspapers (quite recently) ran a story about teenagers using stolen VISA card numbers for calling BBS's in the United States. Now, these teenagers were doing this to be able to download pirated programs for free. > Software theft is somewhat analogous to gun control. In many parts >of the world (such as Japan), guns are illegal to own, and therefore >the distribution of guns isn't all that much of a problem in these >countries. In the U.S., most guns are legal, and the misuse and abuse >of guns is a real problem (to say the least). But you can't blame >people who own guns in the U.S., because they are doing what is >perfectly legal. For the same reason, you can't blame these European >groups too much, because they are doing what their governments (by >inaction) has said is perfectly right and fine. Inaction? Didn't you mention a police bust in Norway? I know that there have been a lot of police raids in many European countries against pirates, where their hardware and software have been confiscated. Sure. There's a lot of piracy going on in Europe, but on the other hand, there are a lot of Amigas in Europe too. > -MB- --- Bjorn Knutsson / USENET: bjornk@bula.se or sunic!sics!bula!bjornk Stangholmsbacken 44 / Phone : +46-8-710 7223 S-127 40 SKARHOLMEN / "Oh dear, I think you'll find reality's on the S W E D E N / blink again." -- Marvin The Paranoid Android
cpmurphy@vax1.tcd.ie (07/24/90)
In article <25337@snow-white.udel.EDU>, BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > These European groups are not 100% responsible for their actions, > though, as they are a product of the European system. Software piracy > is legal in most parts of Europe, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Really? Name one country. > and the widespread software piracy > there is the ultimate fault of the European governments. If they > want to curb piracy, they ought to pass laws to make it illegal. They already have. They're called COPYRIGHT laws. There are international conventions on this thing. > Until > they do, they can't blame these groups for taking advantage of the > legality of software theft. Nope, copyright theft is theft, even in Europe. > -MB- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christian Murphy, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland cpmurphy@vax1.tcd.ie cpmurphy%vax1.tcd.ie@cunyvm.cuny.edu ...uunet!mcsun!ukc!swift.cs.tcd.ie!vax1.tcd.ie!cpmurphy
wlj1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Wayne L Jebian) (07/27/90)
In article <9542@bula.se> Bjorn Knutsson <bjornk@bula.se> writes: >In article <25337@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >[Stuff about a European demo deleted] >>Software piracy >>is legal in most parts of Europe, and the widespread software piracy >>there is the ultimate fault of the European governments. If they >>want to curb piracy, they ought to pass laws to make it illegal. Until >>they do, they can't blame these groups for taking advantage of the >>legality of software theft. > >You say that piracy is legal in "most parts of Europe". Ok, fine, name >those parts. I can't think of any part, except perhaps parts of >Eastern Europe (I really don't know), where piracy is legal. Actually "raids on pirates" occur more often in britain and europe than in the US. I assume that the way piracy is done on the Amiga is similar to the way its done on ye olde C-64 and I can only make a few assumptions but i see no reason why its different. >However, while piracy is illegal, there's still a lot of piracy going >on. But on the other hand, I belive the possession of drugs is an >offence in the USA. Does that keep CRIMINALS from possessing and >selling drugs in the USA? I belive not. > >Another interesting point is: Where do many pirating Europeans go to >get their pirated copies of games? Yes, you're right: Bulletin Board >Systems in the USA. Swedish newspapers (quite recently) ran a story >about teenagers using stolen VISA card numbers for calling BBS's in >the United States. Now, these teenagers were doing this to be able to >download pirated programs for free. I doubt they used visas but instead just hacked out AT&T codes but thats not relevent. What is important is <if the amiga pirates are the same as c64 pirates> it kinda works the opposite way. Groups usually import games to the US from europe after NSTC fixing it <flickers and all> because games usually are released in europe first. of course it can be different on the Amiga but i doubt it. <analogy to gun control deleted> -Mark Dolengo
bjornk@bula.se (Bjorn Knutsson) (07/27/90)
In article <1990Jul26.212345.27655@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> wlj1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Wayne L Jebian) writes: >In article <9542@bula.se> Bjorn Knutsson <bjornk@bula.se> writes: >>In article <25337@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >>>Software piracy >>>is legal in most parts of Europe, and the widespread software piracy >>>there is the ultimate fault of the European governments. If they >>>want to curb piracy, they ought to pass laws to make it illegal. Until >>>they do, they can't blame these groups for taking advantage of the >>>legality of software theft. >> >>You say that piracy is legal in "most parts of Europe". Ok, fine, name >>those parts. I can't think of any part, except perhaps parts of >>Eastern Europe (I really don't know), where piracy is legal. > >Actually "raids on pirates" occur more often in britain and europe than in >the US. I assume that the way piracy is done on the Amiga is similar to the >way its done on ye olde C-64 and I can only make a few assumptions but i see no >reason why its different. Well, the piracy on the C64 got more and more organized over the years, and then most of the C64-pirates leaped over to the Amiga, so the scene is sligthly different than it used to be for the C64. At least the European pirates are very organized and when I was down in Germany for the Cologne AmiExpo I heard that one "group" made over DM 500.000 per month, selling pirated copies of (mostly) games. >>Systems in the USA. Swedish newspapers (quite recently) ran a story >>about teenagers using stolen VISA card numbers for calling BBS's in >>the United States. Now, these teenagers were doing this to be able to >>download pirated programs for free. > >I doubt they used visas but instead just hacked out AT&T codes but thats not >relevent. What is important is <if the amiga pirates are the same as c64 Oh, it was Visas, they also used them to buy computers, peripherals etc by mailorder from the U.S. >pirates> it kinda works the opposite way. Groups usually import games to the >US from europe after NSTC fixing it <flickers and all> because games usually >are released in europe first. of course it can be different on the Amiga but >i doubt it. I guess it works both ways, but I KNOW that many programs are (or at least used to be) released in the U.S first. >-Mark Dolengo --- Bjorn Knutsson / USENET: bjornk@bula.se or sunic!sics!bula!bjornk Stangholmsbacken 44 / Phone : +46-8-710 7223 S-127 40 SKARHOLMEN / "Oh dear, I think you'll find reality's on the S W E D E N / blink again." -- Marvin The Paranoid Android
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (07/29/90)
In-Reply-To: message from wlj1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu I know this is a little off subject, but I'd like to know where I can get MORE demos... I like to whip these out when I have friends over because the music is usually superb, the graphics are nice, etc. So far I have DRAGON, BARTY, LOLLIBOBS, XENOMORPH, and WILD-COPPER. I'd like to know if there are some in comp.binaries.amiga, (I'll look on PLINK) or if there are some FTP sites with alot of them. Please E-Mail me replies, and THANKS in advance... Sean //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | " Fanatics have their INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | dreams, wherewith they | weave a paradise for RealWorld: Sean Cunningham | a sect. " Voice: (512) 994-1602 PLINK: ce3k* | -Keats | Call C.B.A.U.G. BBS (512) 883-8351 w/SkyPix | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\