BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (07/24/90)
In message <46200104@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu>, <ragg027@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> writes: > I just finished lobbying for an Amiga to be included in a grant > with no success. The end result was a request for a Mac IIfx. > Of course the biggest complaint people had with the Amiga was "it > has no software". The Amiga has no software available for it because there is no market for Amiga software. As much as I'd like to see such software as MATLAB and Mathematica ported to the Amiga, this will likely never happen. If the developers of these programs were to port them to the Amiga, they would only sell three or four copies, making it not worth the effort of these developers. Until Commodore starts getting serious with marketing the Amiga at (and to) Universities, this situation will not change. And by 'getting serious' I do not mean putting ads in a couple of school newspapers and pushing the Amiga at a couple of Universities. I mean taking the Amiga and actively showing it at every major University in the country. The reason that Apple has the market penetration that they have is because they have done (and continue to do) precisely this, and Commodore must do the same. Commodore cannot expect to enter this market by osmosis, expecting the Amiga to magically become popular as a machine for scientific and research uses with no effort. It will take hard work (and lots of it) from Commodore for this to happen. About a year ago, Iowa State University made it known (through the proper channels) that they were interested in purchasing several hundred workstation systems, and were taking bids. Nearly every workstation and PC vendor responded (from Zenith to DEC), shipping sample machines to ISU for review purposes -- except Commodore. Apple responded by shipping a beta IIfx system four months before it was introduced. Other companies made similar efforts. Eventually, the contract was awarded to DEC. But I am continually amazed that Commodore made absolutely no effort whatsoever to bid on this $5M contract. They might not have gotten it, but they could have shipped some beta A3000 systems with AmigaOS 2.0 and Amiga UNIX, to show that they are a serious company. As it is, I have seen absolutely nothing from Commodore to convince me that they are at all serious in entering markets like these. -MB-
weic@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Wei Kiat CHONG) (07/24/90)
At least Commodore here in Australia has done something about that in the education area but its only to high schools and primary schools. Apple still has the strangle hold on tertiary institutions. Well, Commodore is apparently the sponsor of the 1990 World Conference on Computers in Education (don't know if thats a worldwide conference though). Anyway, I'd like to see Amigas in universities in the future. weic@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU
santerel@grad2.cis.upenn.edu (Walter Santarelli) (07/24/90)
In article <25432@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > > > The Amiga has no software available for it because there is no market >for Amiga software. As much as I'd like to see such software as MATLAB ^^^^^^ >and Mathematica ported to the Amiga, this will likely never happen. If > > > -MB- Just a point of information. I obtained a port of MATLAB from somewhere on the net about 3 months ago. It's a good implementation of the basic matrix operations of the original MATLAB. It does not include the graphics and some of the special analysis tools included with the marketed versions. I believe the core of MATLAB software is "freeware" from an american university whose name escapes me at the moment. -wally ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Walter A. Santarelli University of Pennsylvania, Computer and Info. Science e-mail:santerel@grad1.cis.upenn.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GWO110%URIACC.BITNET@brownvm.brown.edu (F. Michael Theilig) (07/25/90)
On 24 Jul 90 02:37:01 GMT you said: > > In message <46200104@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu>, <ragg027@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> >writes: > >> I just finished lobbying for an Amiga to be included in a grant >> with no success. The end result was a request for a Mac IIfx. >> Of course the biggest complaint people had with the Amiga was "it >> has no software". > > The Amiga has no software available for it because there is no market >for Amiga software. As much as I'd like to see such software as MATLAB >and Mathematica ported to the Amiga, this will likely never happen. If >the developers of these programs were to port them to the Amiga, they would >only sell three or four copies, making it not worth the effort of these >developers. > The lack of a software market has little to do with the lack of machines available. There must be almost 2 million machines out there. problem is that Amiga owners aren't willing to spend as much on software as Mac owners. Also, there is the question of piracy. There was major development for Mac software long before the shipped their 500,000th unit. If Commodore is going to be criticized, it should be for not inciting developers to port their wares to the Amiga. > Until Commodore starts getting serious with marketing the Amiga at >(and to) Universities, this situation will not change. And by 'getting >serious' I do not mean putting ads in a couple of school newspapers >and pushing the Amiga at a couple of Universities. I mean taking the >Amiga and actively showing it at every major University in the country. >The reason that Apple has the market penetration that they have is >because they have done (and continue to do) precisely this, and >Commodore must do the same. Commodore cannot expect to enter this >market by osmosis, expecting the Amiga to magically become popular >as a machine for scientific and research uses with no effort. It >will take hard work (and lots of it) from Commodore for this to >happen. > University students are not major buyers of software. Still, I'd like to see more educational push. Commodore DOES expect to enter universities by osmosis, and it has worked to some extent. I found out that there was an Amiga lab here at my University. They don't advertise it much, but it's here. And Commodore didn't have to do anything to get it. > About a year ago, Iowa State University made it known (through >the proper channels) that they were interested in purchasing several >hundred workstation systems, and were taking bids. Nearly every >workstation and PC vendor responded (from Zenith to DEC), shipping >sample machines to ISU for review purposes -- except Commodore. >Apple responded by shipping a beta IIfx system four months before >it was introduced. Other companies made similar efforts. Eventually, >the contract was awarded to DEC. But I am continually amazed that >Commodore made absolutely no effort whatsoever to bid on this $5M >contract. They might not have gotten it, but they could have shipped >some beta A3000 systems with AmigaOS 2.0 and Amiga UNIX, to show >that they are a serious company. As it is, I have seen absolutely >nothing from Commodore to convince me that they are at all serious >in entering markets like these. > There is little immediate money in that style of marketing. It's a great long term investment, but Commodore may feel they are not in the financial position to pull this off. Again, I'd like to see it also, but flaming C.S.A isn't going to do anything. Getting mad seldom get's anything accomplished (unless you are a baseball manager ;-) > > -MB- -------- F. Michael Theilig - The University of Rhode Island at Little Rest GWO110 at URIACC.Bitnet GKZ117 at URIACC.Bitnet "Gooooood coffee."
jlh@noether.math.purdue.edu (Jeffrey Hensley) (07/25/90)
In a previous message, BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > The Amiga has no software available for it because there is no market > for Amiga software. As much as I'd like to see such software as MATLAB > and Mathematica ported to the Amiga, this will likely never happen. If > the developers of these programs were to port them to the Amiga, they would > only sell three or four copies, making it not worth the effort of these > developers. > Until Commodore starts getting serious with marketing the Amiga at > (and to) Universities, this situation will not change. And by 'getting > serious' I do not mean putting ads in a couple of school newspapers > and pushing the Amiga at a couple of Universities. I mean taking the > Amiga and actively showing it at every major University in the country. > The reason that Apple has the market penetration that they have is > because they have done (and continue to do) precisely this, and > Commodore must do the same. Commodore cannot expect to enter this > market by osmosis, expecting the Amiga to magically become popular > as a machine for scientific and research uses with no effort. It > will take hard work (and lots of it) from Commodore for this to > happen. Will you ever stop ranting about marketing strategies?? I am really getting sick of all this nonsense. Gee. I am really upset, because FORD is losing part of their market to CHEVY. I own a Ford, and they really should market their vehicles. (Irony, for those who don't get it -- how many of us get upset because our brand of microwave isn't the most popular one on the market???) Actually, Mathematica is being ported to the Amiga. But that doesn't change anything. It's a defective product to begin with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe Commodore could spend millions of dollars on publicity. Then they would have to charge the same outrageous prices that Apple does!! Look, why don't we just talk about the Amiga and how to use it, without worrying so much about what Commodore is doing. I bought mine 2 years ago because I liked it and the price and it could do what I wanted to do. I didn't worry then about how Commodore marketed the machine, and I'm not going to start worrying now. --Jeff H.
bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) (07/25/90)
Jeffrey Hensley says: >Will you ever stop ranting about marketing strategies?? I am really >getting sick of all this nonsense. Gee. I am really upset, because >FORD is losing part of their market to CHEVY. I own a Ford, and they >really should market their vehicles. (Irony, for those who don't get it -- >how many of us get upset because our brand of microwave isn't the most >popular one on the market???) You're missing the point, Jeff. If the Taurus doesn't sell, Ford will make a different car. They make more than one model, and they can afford to eat the loss. The Amiga (or any platform) is a unique animal... If Commodore stopped selling them, the company would be in serious trouble, which would hurt user support. The vendors would consider it an obsolete machine, and stop carrying software/hardware. The developers would realize that if no vendor carries their applications they won't make any money, so they'll stop writing them. Computing as we know it would cease. Amiga sales have a direct impact on our lives, unlike any other appliance in the house... /******************************************************************** * All of the above copyright by the below. * * Bill Cavanaugh uunet!tronsbox!bleys * * "You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever." * * Larry Anderson * ********************************************************************/
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (07/25/90)
BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > The Amiga has no software available for it because there is no market >for Amiga software. As much as I'd like to see such software as MATLAB >and Mathematica ported to the Amiga, this will likely never happen. If >the developers of these programs were to port them to the Amiga, they would >only sell three or four copies, making it not worth the effort of these >developers. Er, Marc. check your facts. MATLAB is out there for the Amiga. Matter of fact, it was posted to comp.binaries.amiga not long ago. There is Maple instead of Mathmatica available for the Amiga also. Which you would know about if you happened to read comp.sys.amiga in the last couple of weeks (it was just discussed). Each platform has it's strengths and weaknesses. PC's have spreadsheets and business software. Macs have scientific and word processing and graphics. Amiga's have Graphics, sound, video, and games. Not to mention having a lot of business stuff and some fair word processing stuff also. Plus you can EMULATE both of the other two machines so you can use their software too! So it doesn't make any difference if the Amiga doesn't have any scientific software, you can emulate the Mac and run *it's* software. So complaining about lack of certain packages on the Amiga when it is available on a Mac or IBM is pretty much a non-issue (sure there are some packages that won't run, but not that many). I don't see you complaining about Mac's not having decent multi-tasking, or any good Desktop Video packages. I guess since the Mac's don't have much video, or animation stuff out yet, I can complain that Mac's don't have any software. After all, that's what you are doing when you say Amiga's don't have any software. Let's see the Mac run Amiga software. -- John Sparks | | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 2400bps. sparks@corpane.UUCP | | PH: (502) 968-DISK A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of. - Ogden Nash
mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) (07/26/90)
According to Commodore and my communications with them, the main way CBM can get machines into a college is if they have FACULTY support. The administration of any school unfortunately doesn't pay too much attention to whether a computer will fit a student budget, or whether it can save the university hundreds of thousands. If they did, universities might start buying Nintendos (after all, they ARE becoming found in a large amount of college dorm rooms). If such faculty support exists, then CBM feels it has a power base from which to go to the administration and have "local" supporters of their system(s).
mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) (07/26/90)
In article <26ad1876-25a2.1comp.sys.amiga-1@tronsbox.xei.com> bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) writes: > You're missing the point, Jeff. If the Taurus doesn't sell, Ford will make > a different car. They make more than one model, and they can afford to eat > the loss. The Amiga (or any platform) is a unique animal... If Commodore Exactly... whereas a Ford Taurus isn't a "unique animal." Commodore has LONG been out of the ranks of IBM and Apple in the views of businesses and educators. Most people today still consider "the commodore" a computer that is good at playing games. Hence, many people see the Amiga as being a Commodore machine, which is true. But their logic extends to that it's only great for games. > stopped selling them, the company would be in serious trouble, which would > hurt user support. The vendors would consider it an obsolete machine, and > stop carrying software/hardware. The developers would realize that if And look how many years the amiga has been out without having influence and/or use in big businesses and colleges. CBM-Amiga has not only produced and supported a fine computer, but upgraded it SIGNIFICANTLY with only having "hacker" and "game" support. As for the amiga becoming obsolete, I wouldn't be surprised if the 2000 that I am typing on will be obsolete within 3 years. The Amiga has been thriving and changing for 5 years now. The Apple II is long since obsolete (yet people still use it...). Even the game machines (such as the old Atari 2600) become obsolete. Cars become obsolete EVERY year. The amiga's been around for 5 years, and will be around for many more.. Not to mention, vendors will only stop carrying software if software stops being MADE. It makes no difference whether the computer exists anymore or not; if software continues to be made and sold, the vendors will carry it. > vendor carries their applications they won't make any money, so they'll stop > writing them. Computing as we know it would cease. Amiga sales have a > direct impact on our lives, unlike any other appliance in the house... Going by that, your television has more impact on your life than anything else in the world. The way you and your children learn about the rest of the world is primarily through television. If someone is so concerned about the continuance of the computing part of their life, why not be concerned about whether television shows get worse and worse every year. Jason here's what greenpeace says about supporting "causes" : "If ten percent of america would contribute just one mintue a day towards cleaning up the earth, after 6 months the ninety percent wouldn't recognize it."
hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) (07/26/90)
In article <MOFO.90Jul25151029@bucsf.bu.edu> mofo@bucsf.bu.edu (jason greene) writes: > According to Commodore and my communications with them, the main way CBM > can get machines into a college is if they have FACULTY support. The >....... > If such faculty support exists, then CBM feels it has a power base from > which to go to the administration and have "local" supporters of their > system(s). I hope you are right. I am a Prof of CS. Last year I was writing up a proposal and someone at CBM hung up on me while I was talking to him. There was a conference at Rutgers( NJ) where manufacturers could strut their stuff. Next showed up without even having computers that were ready to ship. Where was CBM ? Yep, you guessed it. I had to spend all day running all sorts of demos on my Amiga. Is that enough faculty support ?? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- hubey@pilot.njin.net | hubey@apollo.montclair.edu | ...!rutgers!njin!hubey -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (07/26/90)
In-Reply-To: message from BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu Maybe if you would open up your eyes, step out of your closet, and see what was going on in the real world, you'd see stuff happening...which by the way has been going on for a while now. Case in point...I work at an Amiga dealership, and my boss is getting ready to go on a road trip with our district educational sales manager. They're going to be visiting almost every major University in the state of Texas. The rep has already said he's got 50 seed machines waiting to get put to use. Quit bitching and take a look around you...things aren't going to happen over night, and they aren't as easy to get done as you might think. Sean //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc | ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil | " Fanatics have their INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com | dreams, wherewith they | weave a paradise for RealWorld: Sean Cunningham | a sect. " Voice: (512) 994-1602 PLINK: ce3k* | -Keats | Call C.B.A.U.G. BBS (512) 883-8351 w/SkyPix | B^) VISION GRAPHICS B^) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
wlj1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Wayne L Jebian) (07/27/90)
In article <25432@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >Until Commodore starts getting serious with marketing the Amiga at >(and to) Universities, this situation will not change. And by 'getting >serious' I do not mean putting ads in a couple of school newspapers >and pushing the Amiga at a couple of Universities. I mean taking the >Amiga and actively showing it at every major University in the country. >The reason that Apple has the market penetration that they have is >because they have done (and continue to do) precisely this, and >Commodore must do the same. Commodore cannot expect to enter this >market by osmosis, expecting the Amiga to magically become popular >as a machine for scientific and research uses with no effort. It >will take hard work (and lots of it) from Commodore for this to >happen. > > About a year ago, Iowa State University made it known (through >the proper channels) that they were interested in purchasing several >hundred workstation systems, and were taking bids. Nearly every >workstation and PC vendor responded (from Zenith to DEC), shipping >sample machines to ISU for review purposes -- except Commodore. >Apple responded by shipping a beta IIfx system four months before >it was introduced. Other companies made similar efforts. Eventually, >the contract was awarded to DEC. But I am continually amazed that >Commodore made absolutely no effort whatsoever to bid on this $5M >contract. They might not have gotten it, but they could have shipped >some beta A3000 systems with AmigaOS 2.0 and Amiga UNIX, to show >that they are a serious company. As it is, I have seen absolutely >nothing from Commodore to convince me that they are at all serious >in entering markets like these. I hate it when I enter Columbia's bookstore and see some kind of loan program to purchase a ps/2 system, or a Mac system when I want an Amiga. its frustratin that despite the lower prices of the amiga, I can't afford one. I7d love to see commodore do what IBM and Apple are doing but in addition to the Ed. Disc. I wish they could supply loans like the way IBM and Apple do. I remember showing a friend of a friend a picture of the A3000 on BYTE magazine and I said "This is what I want" and he said "But it can't run macintosh programs." <see what I have to deal with @ columbia? heh> then again, columbia U doesnt exactly encourage using computers much since they charge students $35/semester for an account here and you get <wow> 1/2 meg. <no flames please since I'm sure some places charge also, I just think most engineering schools should not charge their students for use of the system.> my $0.02 and shall we get back on the topic? -Mark Dolengo
bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) (07/27/90)
>Case in point...I work at an Amiga dealership, and my boss is getting ready to >go on a road trip with our district educational sales manager. They're going >to be visiting almost every major University in the state of Texas. The rep >has already said he's got 50 seed machines waiting to get put to use. Um, no offense, Sean, but by looking around, we're not likely to see what people are "getting ready" to do. Also, is this a nationwide program, or a localized phenomenon? There have been a lot of people here saying that they either attend a university or work at one, and none of them has had a positive story to tell about Commodore's presence in educational institutions. From what you're saying, it sounds like that's changing this summer. That's great! /******************************************************************** * All of the above copyright by the below. * * Bill Cavanaugh uunet!tronsbox!bleys * * "You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever." * * Larry Anderson * ********************************************************************/
diamond@cbmvax.commodore.com (Howard Diamond - Ed Marketing) (07/27/90)
In article <1990Jul26.214524.15664@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> wlj1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Wayne L Jebian) writes: >In article <25432@snow-white.udel.EDU> BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > >>Until Commodore starts getting serious with marketing the Amiga at >>(and to) Universities, this situation will not change. And by 'getting >>serious' I do not mean putting ads in a couple of school newspapers >>and pushing the Amiga at a couple of Universities. I mean taking the >>Amiga and actively showing it at every major University in the country. >>The reason that Apple has the market penetration that they have is >>because they have done (and continue to do) precisely this, and >>Commodore must do the same. Commodore cannot expect to enter this >>market by osmosis, expecting the Amiga to magically become popular >>as a machine for scientific and research uses with no effort. It >>will take hard work (and lots of it) from Commodore for this to >>happen. >> >> About a year ago, Iowa State University made it known (through >>the proper channels) that they were interested in purchasing several >>hundred workstation systems, and were taking bids. Nearly every >>workstation and PC vendor responded (from Zenith to DEC), shipping >>sample machines to ISU for review purposes -- except Commodore. >>Apple responded by shipping a beta IIfx system four months before >>it was introduced. Other companies made similar efforts. Eventually, >>the contract was awarded to DEC. But I am continually amazed that >>Commodore made absolutely no effort whatsoever to bid on this $5M >>contract. They might not have gotten it, but they could have shipped >>some beta A3000 systems with AmigaOS 2.0 and Amiga UNIX, to show >>that they are a serious company. As it is, I have seen absolutely >>nothing from Commodore to convince me that they are at all serious >>in entering markets like these. > >I hate it when I enter Columbia's bookstore and see some kind of loan program >to purchase a ps/2 system, or a Mac system when I want an Amiga. its frustratin >that despite the lower prices of the amiga, I can't afford one. I7d love to see >commodore do what IBM and Apple are doing but in addition to the Ed. Disc. I >wish they could supply loans like the way IBM and Apple do. I remember showing >a friend of a friend a picture of the A3000 on BYTE magazine and I said "This >is what I want" and he said "But it can't run macintosh programs." <see what I >have to deal with @ columbia? heh> > >then again, columbia U doesnt exactly encourage using computers much since they >charge students $35/semester for an account here and you get <wow> 1/2 meg. ><no flames please since I'm sure some places charge also, I just think most >engineering schools should not charge their students for use of the system.> > > >my $0.02 and shall we get back on the topic? > >-Mark Dolengo I guess I think that Commodore has gotten very serious about Education, and Universities in particular....but I am biased.... When IBM started their Education program, they were able to roll it out nationwide, but that is a function of being IBM. When Apple started their program (a company and program I know abit about) they couldn't afford to be everywhere....so they focused of a small number of campuses (initially, less than 25) and grew from there. We are having to do the same. Since I came to Commodore, the Education program has grown from from one person to 26, and is still growing... That is progress, but is also not enough to cover the country.... Our sales force and marketing group are targeting specific campuses, and you will see a major back to school push this fall, but it won't be everywhere. It will be at the number of schools where we believe we can have a major impact because of the resources that are available in the area, and the resources we can focus to do a quality job. Given the success of the program since it started in January of this year...we are confident we can continue to be very successful, and eventually do the kinds of things you have all been suggesting, all the places you'd like to see them. Let me know if you have any questions, Howard S. Diamond Director of Education CBM
ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (07/27/90)
/* Written 2:10 pm Jul 25, 1990 by mofo@bucsf.bu.edu in uxa.cso.uiuc.edu:comp.sys.amiga */ >According to Commodore and my communications with them, the main way CBM >can get machines into a college is if they have FACULTY support. The >administration of any school unfortunately doesn't pay too much attention >to whether a computer will fit a student budget, or whether it can save the >university hundreds of thousands. If they did, universities might start >buying Nintendos (after all, they ARE becoming found in a large amount of >college dorm rooms). >If such faculty support exists, then CBM feels it has a power base from >which to go to the administration and have "local" supporters of their >system(s). [personal opinion on:] This is all wrong. Faculty are going to be the hardest people to sell Amiga's to on the whole campus. Faculty use the machines they used as students (be it Macs or IBMs) and are only looking to move up to Suns or SGIs. You will have a hard time selling them a different machine that does not offer a significant increase in computing power. An advantage the Amiga has (irregardless of all the current debate on the subject) is price. A faculty member doesn't much care if he writes a proposal asking for $10,000 for a Mac system vs. $4000 for an Amiga system. It's all the same to him or her. But to students, every dollar counts for something. If you can get today's students using Amigas, they'll want to use Amigas when they leave school. And tomorrow's faculty are today's students. Get Amiga's in the hands of students (esp. grad students if you want to get into the educational market) today and it will pay off big in the future. [end slightly biased opinion from a grad student] Richard
millerjv@rigel.crd.ge.com (Jim V Miller) (07/28/90)
In article <46200106@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
From: ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
to on the whole campus. Faculty use the machines they used as students (be
it Macs or IBMs) and are only looking to move up to Suns or SGIs. You will
have a hard time selling them a different machine that does not offer a
significant increase in computing power.
Richard
I don't know about your professors, but almost all of mine had finished school
before IBMs, Macs, and Amigas saw the light of day. If they wanted to use
the computers they used as students, we'd still be using punch-cards.:):):)
I think in general they will pick the machine that
a) Can do the job.
b) Is in the right price bracket.
c) Is a stable machine (hardware, software).
.
.
.
z) Is the neatest thing around.
I would love to see labs full of Amigas, but IBMs and Macs are "safe"
purchases. There are few risks and they can usually do the job for the
price. (Obviously this is not the case for some fields of study like
High Performance Graphics). I ask alot of my computers, whether it
be my Amiga or the lab's $100,000 SGI. I can bring any computer to its
knees with a little imagination. I also know a fair bit about building
computers so I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that computers do crash
(in fact I have yet to meet a computer I couldn't crash, not merely core
dump, but CRASH). But I have to admit, the Amiga is one of the easiest
machines to crash. Of course this is because to have the total freedom
to do what you want. Personally, I like this idea. It doesn't place
unnecessary restrictions on my productivity. But I know some professors
that won't touch a machine unless it is extremely stable.
If you really want to get Amigas into hi-tech colleges (and maybe colleges in
general), you are going to need virtual memory and a memory protection scheme.
Of course I have an alternative motive for suggesting this, my research involves
accessing huge volumes of data (a 13 meg data set is very very small). Now we
have a Stardent GS2000 in the lab with 128 meg of RAM plus disk swap available
so my research runs fine on this machine. However the GS2000 is extremely
slow at allocating memory (why?, don't know). Anyway I would rate this machine
at 5 MIPS. My A2500/30 is probably around 6 MIPS. I would therefore love
to perform my number crunching on my Amiga but I don't think I want to spend
over $1000 for RAM. Plus I don't think my 2500/30 can access this amount of
memory. My solution: run my research on the SGI (~20 MIPS).
Of course the other thing keeping my research off the Amiga is that after I access
this data for a few minutes, I generate from 100K to 10 Meg of geometry that
I would really like to visualize. Unforunately, I need a 24 bit system to
determine if my geometry (between 4000 and 24000 polygons) is "acceptable".
So I have to keep using these $100,000 machines, even though my Amiga has
plenty of horsepower to do the work I need. Such is life.
(Did I have a point?)
--
Jimmy Miller
General Electric Corporate Research and Developement: millerjv@crd.ge.com
Rensselaer Design Research Center (RPI): jvmiller@rdrc.rpi.edu
"All I need is room to play."es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (07/28/90)
In article <46200106@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > >[personal opinion on:] >This is all wrong. Faculty are going to be the hardest people to sell Amiga's >to on the whole campus. Faculty use the machines they used as students (be >it Macs or IBMs) and are only looking to move up to Suns or SGIs. You will >have a hard time selling them a different machine that does not offer a >significant increase in computing power. >An advantage the Amiga has (irregardless of all the current debate on the >subject) is price. A faculty member doesn't much care if he writes a proposal >asking for >$10,000 for a Mac system vs. $4000 for an Amiga system. It's all the same >to him or her. >But to students, every dollar counts for something. If you can get today's >students using Amigas, they'll want to use Amigas when they leave school. And >tomorrow's faculty are today's students. Get Amiga's in the hands of students >(esp. grad students if you want to get into the educational market) today and >it will pay off big in the future. >[end slightly biased opinion from a grad student] I disagree strongly (so what's new? 8). There are several factors that you aren't considering. Being a student at Columbia trying desperately to get Amigas into the campus, the obstacles are enormous. First off, the vast majority of students who buy computers want word processing, games and compatibility. These people haven't heard of the Amiga. Most of their friends are buying Macs and the Macintosh is OHHHH so easy to use (or so they think). The IBM is cheaper but harder to learn, but at least it is standard. These people don't want to learn another system which no one else is using. There are also the technical students, but in general they are going where the engineering software is: the IBM and Mac. Compatibility is still a major issue. And yes, there is AMax and the BB, but you'd be surprised how inflexible people are. And of course, the final problem is getting the students to know about the Amiga in the first place. The school computer centers don't want to have anything to do with you at all. They find every possible excuse to exclude you from the campus. So how do you get the word across? As far as I see it, the way to start is to get one faculty member interested. Start attracting interest in one segment and then they'll help you spread the word. Students are considered irrelevant to the univerity beauracracies. They don't start listening to what people are saying until they hear a faculty member or a dean start asking questions. Also you say that $4,000 and $10,000 are of no difference to the faculty member. These days universities are not swimming in surplus money. If the money is grant money, then you don't have a choice as to which machine you buy anyway! Otherwise it is coming from a departmental budget. That $6,000 difference may mean the difference between getting your option approved or rejected. And finally, you could always take the $4,000 Amiga setup and spend another $6,000 on laser discs, scanners, laser printers and all sorts of other fun toys! Finally, Commodore doesn't have the man power to go after students. What they are doing (apparently) is going after schools where there is already some pro-Amiga group, whether it be a users group or a faculty member. They do only have 27 people in the education dept. at CBM, at least for now. >Richard -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu "If Commodore had to market sushi they'd call it `raw cold fish'" -- The Bandito, inevitably stolen from someone else
ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Alan Gerber) (07/28/90)
In article <MILLERJV.90Jul27164515@rigel.crd.ge.com> <millerjv@crd.ge.com> (Jimmy Miller) writes: >In article <46200106@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > > From: ragg0270@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu > > to on the whole campus. Faculty use the machines they used as students (be > it Macs or IBMs) and are only looking to move up to Suns or SGIs. You will > have a hard time selling them a different machine that does not offer a > significant increase in computing power. > > > >I don't know about your professors, but almost all of mine had finished school >before IBMs, Macs, and Amigas saw the light of day. If they wanted to use >the computers they used as students, we'd still be using punch-cards.:):):) > OK, OK :-) My point was: I think most faculty members are already comfortable with the system they have, and are not likely to change > >If you really want to get Amigas into hi-tech colleges (and maybe colleges in >general), you are going to need virtual memory and a memory protection scheme. I agree there is probably no way any Amiga system is going to replace medium to high-end workstations. However, there are a lot of PCs (in the generic sense) sitting on people's desks that get used for word processing, reading mail, writing code for use on mainframes, running small programs, testing code fragments, plotting data, communicating w/ mainframs, etc. This would seem to be a good place to introduce the Amiga into the edu. market. Stress how you can do some number crunching, print files and login to a mainframe efficiently with the Amiga's multitasking. This would give the Amiga a foothold into the edu. market. Then as the Amiga evolves, these people may move up with it. That is how it works with Macs around here. People started with Mac Pluses, got used to them, then moved up to the SE, IIx, IIci, and IIfx, all the while keeping software compatibility. My original point was that it will be difficult to get a faculty member, who has invested time and money in such a system to switch to an Amiga.
danb20@pro-graphics.cts.com (Dan Bachmann) (07/28/90)
In-Reply-To: message from BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu
You said that you'd like to see some good math stuff for the Amiga?
I'm pretty sure that there is a version of Mathmatica for the Amiga and also
Doug's Math Aquarium.
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ProLine: DanB20@pro-graphics ************************
UUCP: ...crash!pro-graphics!DanB20 * Daniel G. Bachmann *
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Internet: danb20@pro-graphics.cts.com or ak032@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
U.S.mail: 509 StonyBrook Drive, Bridgewater, NJ, 08807 USAdonb@bushido.uucp (Donald Burnett) (07/30/90)
In article <26af42b7-25ce.1comp.sys.amiga-1@tronsbox.xei.com> bleys@tronsbox.xei.com (Bill Cavanaugh) writes: >>Case in point...I work at an Amiga dealership, and my boss is getting ready to >>go on a road trip with our district educational sales manager. They're going >>to be visiting almost every major University in the state of Texas. The rep >>has already said he's got 50 seed machines waiting to get put to use. > > >Um, no offense, Sean, but by looking around, we're not likely to see what >people are "getting ready" to do. Also, is this a nationwide program, or a >localized phenomenon? There have been a lot of people here saying that they >either attend a university or work at one, and none of them has had a >positive story to tell about Commodore's presence in educational >institutions. > >From what you're saying, it sounds like that's changing this summer. That's >great! > >/******************************************************************** > * All of the above copyright by the below. * > * Bill Cavanaugh uunet!tronsbox!bleys * > * "You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever." * > * Larry Anderson * > ********************************************************************/ Bill, It's not localized it's happening up here in Michigan too... Commodore Education Dept. is really exploding on to the scene up here too... Sincerely, donb
msiskin@us.cc.umich.edu (Marc Siskin) (07/31/90)
In article <1990Jul30.164553.640@bushido.uucp> donb@bushido.uucp (Donald Burnett) writes: >Bill, It's not localized it's happening up here in Michigan too... Commodore >Education Dept. is really exploding on to the scene up here too... >Sincerely, >donb It is really exploding if you are in the RIGHT departments or if you have the fortune of knowing someone at the local Ed Dealer. If you aren't, then you may see very little. I have heard about what the CBM Regional Rep is doing here at the University of Michigan but within the U I haven't heard a peep that confirms that these activities are currently happening (what I have heard are 'plans' for activities) Marc Siskin Senior Media Designer (and according to the Comp Center Amiga UG Rep) Language Lab Univ. of Michigan Insert Std Disclaimer here ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msiskin@shogun.us.cc.umich.edu Marc_Siskin@ub.cc.umich.edu
jimmy@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jimmy Chan) (08/01/90)
Reading this latest string of notes, I wonder what happened to MB? Has
anyone ever wondered that MB posts these base notes then never responds
to any of the followups? He neither tries to defends his original position
or apologize for any mistakes. I am beginning to think that MB does
not read any of the followups or just doesn't care about what other
people think or know.
Sorry just some idle thinking here....8-)..
--
// ++-------------------------------------------------------------------++
// || Hardware : A2000, 3 megs, 2 internal 3 1/2" drives, Amax ||
\\ // || Future Purchases : SCSI Controller, 40-60 meg harddrives, A3000 ||
\X/ || jimmy@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu or jimmy@uhccux.bitnet ||es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (08/01/90)
In article <8804@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> jimmy@uhccux.UUCP (Jimmy Chan) writes: > >Reading this latest string of notes, I wonder what happened to MB? Has >anyone ever wondered that MB posts these base notes then never responds >to any of the followups? He neither tries to defends his original position >or apologize for any mistakes. I am beginning to think that MB does >not read any of the followups or just doesn't care about what other >people think or know. > >Sorry just some idle thinking here....8-).. In the beginning -MB- would reply all the time. Often his replies would become stupider and stupider. This is just a change of strategies! 8^> How can anyone forget his epic message: Go ahead, flame me, call me an asshole if you like. Well, everyone took his advice. And can you forget his line, "COMMODORE: Yesterday's technology forever" -- Ethan Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu "If Commodore had to market sushi they'd call it `raw cold fish'" -- The Bandito, inevitably stolen from someone else
BARRETT@owl.ecil.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (08/01/90)
In article <1990Aug1.003652.23108@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Ethan Solomita (es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu) writes: >In article <8804@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> jimmy@uhccux.UUCP (Jimmy Chan) writes: >> >>Reading this latest string of notes, I wonder what happened to MB? Has >>anyone ever wondered that MB posts these base notes then never responds >>to any of the followups? He neither tries to defends his original position >>or apologize for any mistakes. I am beginning to think that MB does >>not read any of the followups or just doesn't care about what other >>people think or know. >> >>Sorry just some idle thinking here....8-).. Actually, I reply to followups often, but lately I have been keeping my replies almost exclusively to E-Mail, for various reasons that I do not feel like explaining. At any rate, I admit that this does give the impression (to those that don't get my E-Mail messages) that I never reply to followups. > How can anyone forget his epid message: Go ahead, flame >me, call me an asshole if you like. Well, everyone took his >advice. And can you forget his line, "COMMODORE: Yesterday's >technology forever" > -- Ethan Yep, quite a few people did take my advice from that message! I now know what Gary Hart felt like when several reporters followed his advice to 'Go ahead, follow me around...' :-) >And can you forget his line, "COMMODORE: Yesterday's >technology forever" I believe that was 'AMIGA: ...' At any rate, I only wanted Commodore to disprove that statement, which they did to a certain extent. I still am somewhat dissatisfied with the lack of improvements in the Amiga's color capabilities, but am willing to give Commodore a little more time for this. > -- Ethan >Ethan Solomita: es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu > >"If Commodore had to market sushi they'd call it `raw cold fish'" > -- The Bandito, inevitably stolen from someone else -MB- (Shortest Sig in the West...)