coy@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stephen B Coy) (07/23/87)
I think this problem is being looked at the wrong way. The problem as I see it is that illegal software copying is looked upon as a hobby when in reality it is theft. Every pirate knows what he(she) is doing is not legal. They also know that nobody is going to do anything about it. Any copy protection scheme you come up with will be broken. The harder you make it to break the more pride a pirate will have in distributing a demonstration of his talents. Protection is a no win situation in this case because as the schemes get more complex the problems for legitimate users also rise which is not a good thing for sales. And sales lost to pirates look exactly like sales lost to annoyed customers when your ledger is openned. So what solutions are there? I see two goals that I think will help the software industry and their customers. 1) Software publishers must provide something "extra" for legal owners. This can either be in the form of updates, support, or materials that just cannot be duplicated with a Xerox(tm) machine. Infocom is a good example of this. On the Apple ][ their copy protection could be broken using the standard disk copy program that comes with every Apple but all the neat extras packaged with the adventures made buying the games much more attractive that pirating. Some of the extras where also required to get clues for the game. This is just a very subtle form of keyword in manual type protection but since it is a part of the game the annoyance doesn't exist. 2) The public must be educated about the crime of software piracy. I think the number of pirate BBS's would dwindle quite rapidly if the sysops knew that getting caught would result in confiscation of computing equipment, ~$10,000 fine, and maybe a few hundred hours of community service work. For this to work we would also have to have some branch of law enforcement taking this seriously. Right now we have local officials saying its an FBI problem and the FBI saying its too small to mess with and the pirates laughing at everybody. Maybe we can fight back by calling up every pirate BBS we can find and uploading as much crap as possible. Core dumps would be nice. :-) Enough ranting for now. comp.piracy anyone? Stephen Coy uw-beaver!ssc-vax!coy "Charlie don't surf!"
kruger@whyvax.dec.com (Desperate Drive Mounted to keep Larouche off Ballot) (01/19/88)
Piracy is an issue to Amiga users because we want to see increasing amounts of software on our machines. Having been told many times "yes, the Amiga is a nice piece of hardware, but it doesn't have enough software" I am somewhat sensitive to this as well. The fact that this attitude is largely ignorance- based is also upsetting. However, let's not lose perspective. On a cheap machine (and the Amiga is a homecomputer that is quite cheap now (A500) no manufacturer is going to go to the expense of managing some wild software distribution scheme. It is impractical, and obnoxious. Occam's razor applies here -- we should use the simplest method of protecting the user -- ALLOWING THE USER TO COPY THEIR OWN PROGRAM FOR THEIR OWN USE. Anything else is a poor second, and is not justifiable (although I can certainly understand the motive of software producers). While Richard Stallman (of the Free Software Foundation) is a radical going far beyond my limit, I would say he has the right idea in that piracy should be stopped by providing a service the pirate needs, such as support. This does not work for games though. *sigh* there is no answer, it seems. About video protection: No one has the right to control the airwaves. If those guys see fit to beam their signal to my backyard, I believe it is my fundamentalright to receive it (I do not own a dish, and probably never will, but I am deeply offended by the government's intrusion in this area.) dov
daves@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Dave Scroggins) (01/20/88)
Hey dov (or Defunct Disk Mounted at DEC) Are you trying to say something of value here?? Did some of your message not get to my machine??? What the HELL does airwave piracy have to do with the AMIGA computer? And why should I care if anything goes in your back yard???? And who cares what COLOR Sony disks are???? (from one of your earlier messages.) Software piracy was gone over and over and over and over ... earlier so let's not start again!! Sheese -- some peoples kids!!!!! Daves
kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Kent Paul Dolan) (01/24/88)
In article <8801181913.AA15773@decwrl.dec.com> kruger@whyvax.dec.com (Desperate Drive Mounted to keep Larouche off Ballot) writes: >Piracy is an issue to Amiga users because we want to see increasing amounts of >software on our machines. [...] >While Richard Stallman (of the Free Software Foundation) is a radical >going far beyond my limit, I would say he has the right idea in that >piracy should be stopped by providing a service the pirate needs, such >as support. This does not work for games though. *sigh* there is no >answer, it seems. >dov Sure there is. Many (most? all?) games lose interest after a while because it is the same old stuff. Well designed, most games would be a driver module plus a scenario data set. Sell new scenarios cheaply and conveniently. Doesn't even matter much if you sell them only to registered users, or to pirates and all, as long as they provide a nice cash flow and are cheaper and easier to get than to pirate. For examples where this works, look for example at Marauder II, which is recursive pirating software (pirates itself) but provides a great cash flow trick through dial up access and credit card number payments. I think they just sell their "brainfiles" to registered users, but they are missing a good bet ... might just as well give the software away and make the bucks on the brainfiles. Another, similar example is the new power filter I got for my aquarium. They might as well have GIVEN me the filter device, 'cause at $1.99 per each for filtration inserts that only last a week, and cost about $0.05 to make, they are getting rich off my update expenses, far beyond any profit they make on the original filter sale. Games that would do well sold this way? Any Infocom game (they finished the driver in the stone age, just keep releasing new scenarios which promptly get pirated like heck, 'cause they go for $40 a throw when they could be distributed at a great profit by wire priced at $5); Bard's Tale, Faery Tale Adventure, Firepower (Wow!), Apshi Trilogy, Sindbad, Defender of the Crown, Ractor (insanity scenarios; should I patent that idea, quick?), Hacker II, any sports game (distribute the updated stats for current players seasonally), any text/graphics adventure (e.g., The Pawn, Mindshadow, Arazok's (sp) Tomb), World Games and Winter Games (they didn't come close to exhausting the list), Silent Service (more maps, enemy ship types, different submarines for the player to try out, evolve the torpedoes as they changed during the war, new ASW strategies of the enemy), Little Computer People (a new house, a different pet (ferrets, anyone?)), etc., etc., etc. The few folks who've tried this make a steady profit selling updates. If more people tried it, the drivers would still get pirated, but the profits wouldn't thereby disappear. Just my opinion, of course. Kent, the man from xanth (up at last, up at last, oh Lord, we're up at last!)
DAVEA%CERNVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu (David Almond) (12/09/88)
While reading this intresting debate about piracy I would like to
throw my tuppence worth. As a computer operator in education (ex) I
had a great deal of trouble getting people to understand copywright
. If there was a class of ten machines sitting in a group and the
lecturer wanted to teach something using product X they usually saw
no reason why they shouldnt buy one product and copy it 10 times.
Despite coming out with all the usual reasons and explanations they
just could not see the problem. Even when buying software, if I was
buying then I would evaluate a site licence or a multi-licence because
thats what I learnt was the right thing to do . The problem became
really intense when you bring in the adult student. You then get the
situation
A) I like this software I use in class, can I have a copy
b) Would you like a copy of this software I use at home
AAAAGHHHHHH
It used to drive me nuts trying to keep the books straight and everyone
though I was on some sort of moral crusade.
I think we are stuck with the situation where those people who produce
copy protection think they are helping prevent piracy by protecting.
Us honest users tear out our hair trying to use the software with copy
protection
And the pirates dont care either way because they dont have the imagination
to realise the damage they do.
Denmark is the obvious place where a country has been blitzed by people
copying software will nilly and where any honest software vendore wouldnt
go a near with a barge pole because they know there sales are going
to be low and that piracy will do the rest.
Although I think there are some ideas to beat this thing none will eradicate
the problem until the pirates are made to think about the error of their ways
and this they wont do because they dont have the imagination to care!!!derek@hsi.UUCP (Derek Lee-Wo) (12/15/88)
I don't have an amiga, but I been reading the messages in this group. Especially the ones about piracy. I have seen several suggestions put forward as to how to prevent it. I think it's useless. Regardless of how stringent the methods, there would always be someone who can crack it. Once it's been cracked, it would be up on pirate boards where almost anybody, regardless of their computer knowledge would have acess to it. I used to pirate software a while back (I don't do it any more). Most of the software I pirated was obtained off pirate boards. About 50% of it originally had some form of copy protection which was cracked. Why did I do it??. Simply for the fun of it. I would usually play a game once (I don't like games) and just put the disk aside to collect dust. In other, it's not as though I was going to buy it in the first place. The only program I ever used regularly was a Pascal compiler, which I did buy. All other software usually got used once, or maybe twice if I enjoyed it. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Derek Lee-Wo, Health Systems International, New Haven, CT 06511. | |E-mail address :- ...!harvard!yale!hsi!derek. Phone :- (203)777-3125. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
louie@trantor.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) (12/15/88)
In article <221@hsi86.hsi.UUCP> derek@hsi.UUCP (Derek Lee-Wo) writes: >I don't have an amiga, but I been reading the messages in this group. >Especially the ones about piracy. I do have an amiga, and have been reading the messages in this group. Except the ones about piracy. Haven't we beat this subject into the ground *yet again*! It seems that this topic is plague that visits our newsgroup with disturbing regularity. I hope it doesn't spread the oasis in comp.sys.amiga.tech. The old 'k' key is getting a workout these days.. Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH Internet: louie@TRANTOR.UMD.EDU University of Maryland, Computer Science Center - Systems Programming
jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) (12/16/88)
In article <3043@haven.umd.edu>, louie@trantor.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) writes: > Haven't we beat this subject into the ground *yet again*! It seems that > this topic is plague that visits our newsgroup with disturbing regularity. > I hope it doesn't spread the oasis in comp.sys.amiga.tech. Wait one second. Do you think that all the people who read this news-group are old-timers? I just started reading comp.sys.amiga three weeks ago. The topic of piracy interests me, and *I* sure haven't seen it before. Do you think that this newsgroup is read by a constant of users? -- What about technology, computers, .------------------. J.A.Cisek nuclear fusion? I'm terrified of |Spectral Fantasies| jac423@leah.albany.edu radiation, I hate the television. `------------------' jac423@rachel.albany.edu
deraadt@xenlink.UUCP (Theo A. DeRaadt) (12/20/88)
In article <1385@leah.Albany.Edu>, jac423@leah.Albany.Edu (Julius A Cisek) writes: > In article <3043@haven.umd.edu>, louie@trantor.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos) writes: > > Haven't we beat this subject into the ground *yet again*! It seems that > > this topic is plague that visits our newsgroup with disturbing regularity. > > I hope it doesn't spread the oasis in comp.sys.amiga.tech. > > Wait one second. Do you think that all the people who read this > news-group are old-timers? I just started reading comp.sys.amiga three > weeks ago. The topic of piracy interests me, and *I* sure haven't seen > it before. Do you think that this newsgroup is read by a constant of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > users? ^^^^^^ > -- Well, I personally think that people leave because of the piracy question. I've been here for 2 years now, and I myself would welcome the MCIBTYC wars back anyday, better than this piracy question, and just about as productive. <tdr. _____ _ ----------------------------------- / / / / \ _ _ /_/_ Theo de Raadt: (403) 283-9123 / /_ _ ___ __/_ /__/ _\ _\ __/ / Xenlink / / /</_(_) (_/</_/ \_(_/\(_/\(_/_(_/ ..!alberta!calgary!xenlink!deraadt
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/04/89)
Consider the following two phrases :
"I killed that person, but I am not guilty of any crime. After all,
he was going to die someday anyway."
"I stole a copy of this program, but I am not guilty of any crime. After
all, I never would have purchased it anyway."
The justification for both crimes is unrefutably true. What does that
tell you? It tells you that you aren't debating truth or untruth, you
are debating morals. From my personal perspective, anyone who believes
that either one is ok, has a poor sense of morality. So what ?! As a member
of the society which makes up the USA, I would like to see that society
agrees with me. If they do, we'll through people like this in jail, if
they don't we'll just live with it. The world continues to turn...
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) (08/04/89)
In article <119399@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: Ummm.. i con't hardly believe that i am acutally posting something about this never-ending debate. >Consider the following two phrases : > >"I killed that person, but I am not guilty of any crime. After all, > he was going to die someday anyway." > >"I stole a copy of this program, but I am not guilty of any crime. After > all, I never would have purchased it anyway." > >The justification for both crimes is unrefutably true. What does that >tell you? It tells you that you aren't debating truth or untruth, you >are debating morals. From my personal perspective, anyone who believes True everybody is debateing what essentially is a question of morality. Some people think it is ok to copy software, some don't. Most software companies think that copying is bad, therefore the try copyprotecting their software -- mostly game software. Copy protection does: 1: Angers legitimate users. 2: Challenges people (hackers) to break the protection, and always (well, usually) eventually succeed 3: Take time/money for the software company to develope 4: therefore less effort goes into the product inself 5: makes the producer feel more secure 6: Produce lots of noise on this network Because of 1 and 2, I would think that more software companies would try something different. Suggestion number one: Perhaps selling software for a reasonable price. I do not pirate. I have bought *very* few piece of software. I have purchased thing I use, mainly compilers. I would like to buy more games + "productivity" software but the cost is very prohibitive. Suggestion number two: Provide some sort of useability/playability/bugfree/satisfaction guarantee. How many other products do you see warnings printed on informing the consumer that the manufacturer can in no way be held responsible for the functionality of the product? REAL NAME: Joe Porkka jap@frith.cl.msu.edu
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/05/89)
In article <4030@cps3xx.UUCP> porkka@frith.UUCP (Joe Porkka) writes: >True everybody is debateing what essentially is >a question of morality. > >Some people think it is ok to copy software, some don't. From that point on you missed the point. A society as a whole has morals, and those morals are written down in the laws they make. Copying software is undeniably illegal, and by definition, society as a whole considers it to be immoral. Be _definition_, anyone breaking the law is antisocial. That's true if you go 60MPH in a 55MPH zone, or you pirate software. All the discussion about "Software costs to much" or "I wouldn't have bought it anyway." stuff is bullshit. You copy software without the authors permission and you're a crook, period. If you are caught you can be put into prision, just as easily as if you robbed a bank. Don't bother trying to convince yourself it was justified, there is no justification. And don't piss and moan when you get thrown into jail or have your machine confiscated. No one cares. Just like the highway patrol doesn't care that you were on a straight road, on a clear day, with 20 mile visibility. To the person who walked into the science fiction convention with all of the pirate software. Call the cops, throw them in jail. Every person in the room with a disk can be tried and convicted of receiving stolen property, and the people who put on the convention can just be convicted of theft. If it is the moral responsibility of every citizen to obey the laws it is also the moral responsibility to report to the enforcement arm of society when they are broken. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you. "A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"
fors@ndmath.UUCP (Guy Fors) (08/05/89)
> Chuck McManis writes: > From that point on you missed the point. A society as a whole has > morals, and those morals are written down in the laws they make. > Copying software is undeniably illegal, and by definition, society > as a whole considers it to be immoral. > > Be _definition_, anyone breaking the law is antisocial. That's true > if you go 60MPH in a 55MPH zone, or you pirate software. > > be convicted of theft. If it is the moral responsibility of every citizen > to obey the laws it is also the moral responsibility to report to the > enforcement arm of society when they are broken. > Morality??? You really want to put someone with some pirate software in jail when confessed criminals (like Nixon) are free. Sure we need morals but lets start at the top of the pile and work our way down to Joe Average. Lets voice our moral opinion and put CEO of companies that pollute the environment in prision. Insurance Companies are some of the biggest crooks ever invented, should they be in jail as well. Give your head a shake, if you're that interested in morality do something about the worst abusers. Until then flush twice before posting garbage about the evils of software piracy. Guy Fors
raw@mcnc.org (Russell Williams) (08/05/89)
In article <119606@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >In article <4030@cps3xx.UUCP> porkka@frith.UUCP (Joe Porkka) writes: > >From that point on you missed the point. A society as a whole has >morals, and those morals are written down in the laws they make. >Copying software is undeniably illegal, and by definition, society >as a whole considers it to be immoral. > Ummm, excuse me, but laws reflect morality, they are not considered the definition of morality by society. The fact that they are usually created with moral guidelines tends to blur this fact, but there are numerous laws that have no moral basis whatsoever, and exist solely for utilitarianist concerns. If you want to follow this up, though, e-mail me because the contradictions of legality and morality, though a fascinating issue, are scarcely the domain of comp.sys.amiga. :-) B >BBe _definition_, anyone breaking the law is antisocial. That's true >if you go 60MPH in a 55MPH zone, or you pirate software. > >or have your machine confiscated. No one cares. Just like the highway >patrol doesn't care that you were on a straight road, on a clear day, >with 20 mile visibility. > >To the person who walked into the science fiction convention with >all of the pirate software. Call the cops, throw them in jail. Every >person in the room with a disk can be tried and convicted of receiving >stolen property, and the people who put on the convention can just >be convicted of theft. If it is the moral responsibility of every citizen >to obey the laws it is also the moral responsibility to report to the >enforcement arm of society when they are broken. > Amen to that! I was out with my mother last night when she did thirty on a 25 MPH zone. I pointed this out to her, and all she could say was "But it's a straight road with 20 mile visibility" Well, after we got home I called the cops and turned her straight in, as befits a moral citizen. Based on my testimony, the judge gave her the strictest judgement possible, and I slept well, knowing that justice had been done. Who could have guessed that my mother was antisocial? Or, as it would seem, a large percentage of our population who have been cited with speeding tickets! Most of us are antisocial to some degree. Many people will break the law if they cannot conceive of any harm being done, while good comes to them or others. Society makes rules which can at times be bad on the micro level because they were constructed on the macro level. If you're willing to accept what the law is as the definition of morality, then maybe you'd be happy in an ant farm, but individuals have reasoning abilities which they excercise in the discretion of how the greater good can be acheived. Whether or not that includes copying is for the indivdual to decide, but my moral beliefs are determined by my thoughts and experiences, not by what the majority believes. Antisocial does not necessarily mean antigood! Russell "It's just I'm antiwork!"
mjl@ut-emx.UUCP (mjl) (08/05/89)
- Wow, only 6 months or so since the last piracy "discussion". Hello, kill file.
noel@uokmax.UUCP (Bamf) (08/06/89)
In article <119399@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >Consider the following two phrases : > >"I killed that person, but I am not guilty of any crime. After all, > he was going to die someday anyway." > >"I stole a copy of this program, but I am not guilty of any crime. After > all, I never would have purchased it anyway." > Correct me if I'm wrong, but this has little to nothing to do with comp.sys.amiga, even if thats where it all started. I'm getting tired of reading this tripe, so please move it somewhere else. Alt.sex has had a pretty bad S/N ratio, so try there... Bamf -- /* "Can you do something out of this world?" -- Supertramp ----You want it should sing too?------| noel@uokmax | ...!texsun!uokmax!noel <Dis-Claimer, Dat-Claimer, to look at | noel@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu 'em, you'd never know the diff...> | "Great Screaming Yak Snot!" */
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/07/89)
I apologize for attempting to talk about morality in comp.sys.amiga. No
I don't get alt.flame so I can't post there sorry.
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"fc@lexicon.com (Frank Cunningham) (08/07/89)
In article <1517@ndmath.UUCP> fors@ndmath.UUCP (Guy Fors) writes: > Morality??? You really want to put someone with some pirate > software in jail when confessed criminals (like Nixon) are free. Sure > we need morals but lets start at the top of the pile and work our way > down to Joe Average. Lets voice our moral opinion and put CEO of > ...etc > Guy Fors Think globally, act locally. -- -Frank Cunningham smart: fc@lexicon.com dumb: {husc6,linus,harvard,bbn}!spdcc!lexicon!fc phone: (617) 891-6790
johnj@osiris.UUCP (John Johnston johnj@welch.jhu.edu) (08/08/89)
This is a bit of a digression.... Chuck McManis writes: >[...] A society as a whole has >morals, and those morals are written down in the laws they make. >Copying software is undeniably illegal, and by definition, society >as a whole considers it to be immoral. Arguing moral philosophy is dangerous. Chuck's statements imply that 'morality' is a consensus among the members of a society, and that laws are the expression of that consensus and morality. Further, the argument is made that "society as a whole considers piracy[sic] to be immoral" - no appeals to an external platonic ideal "right" or "wrong" are made. This is poor logic - if 'morality' is a consensus, then one CANNOT argue in the same breath that society as a WHOLE considers ANYTHING. You are left with the shaky argument that society on the AVERAGE, or in the MAJORITY considers piracy immoral, which is a long way from saying it is WRONG in an absolute sense. (since I would argue that absolute right and wrong are not relative, and thus have nothing to do with whether people believe in them or not.) The worst flaw in Chuck's argument is, simply put: if morality is a consensus, it would be more accurate to say that pirating software is about 50% wrong - since AT LEAST 50% of the computer owners I know pirate software. No :-) The remaining argument would be to say pirating software is wrong in an absolute sense - EVIL, in other words. If that's what you want to say, don't bother bringing The Law into it - don't you get it ? If people respected The Law, would there be software pirates ? --mjr(); mjr@welch.jhu.edu
mitchell@janus.uucp (Evan Mitchell) (08/08/89)
In article <2921@osiris.UUCP> mjr@welch.jhu.edu (Marcus J. Ranum) writes: > > This is a bit of a digression.... > [deleted various points on morality..] > --mjr(); > mjr@welch.jhu.edu This piracy discussion is interesting, but let's bring it back to the Amiga! :-) Personally, I think the piracy problem stems from various reasons. I don't believe people who pirate software (at least not for profit) are inherently bad people. In fact, the only people I've ever heard complain about it are (rightly so, I might add) USENET-type people. These are the people who have the most to loose in terms of returns on investments. However, for the consumer at large, piracy isn't that much of a big deal. In fact, piracy often makes sense in a world based on economic models. Why pay for something that you can have for free. In a way, piracy is kind of like selling drugs. Both are illegal, and (to many) considered "morally reprehsible." However, both make perfect sense based on economic models. I think THE problem with piracy comes from the use of magnetic media. Disks are copiable, PERIOD. The analogy about the diamond ring should be expanded, piracy isn't the same as stealing a diamond ring, it's more like taking the diamond ring, and using it to create another diamond ring. I personally would like to see more and better software for the Amiga, and one need only look at the Atari ST & 8-bits to see what piracy can do to a machine with a low installed user base. _______________________________________________________________________________ | Evan Jay Mitchell EECS/ERL Industrial Liaison Program | | mitchell@janus.berkeley.edu University of California at Berkeley | | Phone: (415) 643-6687 | | "Think, it ain't illegal...yet!" - George Clinton | |_____________________________________________________________________________|
dbk@teroach.UUCP (Dave Kinzer) (08/08/89)
In article <2921@osiris.UUCP> mjr@welch.jhu.edu (Marcus J. Ranum) writes: > This is a bit of a digression.... No fucking shit. * * * Imminent use of deathnet predicted. * * * // Dave Kinzer (602)897-3085 asuvax!mcdphx!teroach!dbk Opinions are mine. \X/ Got a problem with this posting, take it to Email. EMAIL. Got it?
COSC60I@elroy.uh.edu (Bandolar) (08/09/89)
> Be _definition_, anyone breaking the law is antisocial. That's true > if you go 60MPH in a 55MPH zone, or you pirate software. No! A GROUP of people who were given thousands of dollars under the table and in campaign contributions decided that it is anti-social. For about the same reason that the Stealth bomber program has programs in 48 out of the 50 states. It may be *MORALLY* wrong to pirate software. It may be *MORALLY* wrong to charge $50 for a non-working piece of junk too. But, in either case, just because a majority of people in Washington deciding to make it illegal doesn't make it morally wrong to pirate software. Think for yourself. Not all laws are good. The less of them the better. -- Stephen McLeod, native Texican | Interests: SF/Gaming, French, the SCA, Vote Spock, the logical choice | Computers, and friendly people This Space for Rent | So... whadayou wanna be when you grow up?
perley@vdsvax.crd.ge.com (Perley Donald P) (08/09/89)
In article <119606@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >From that point on you missed the point. A society as a whole has >morals, and those morals are written down in the laws they make. >Copying software is undeniably illegal, and by definition, society >as a whole considers it to be immoral. > >Be _definition_, anyone breaking the law is antisocial. That's true >if you go 60MPH in a 55MPH zone, or you pirate software. Small quibble here on the speed limit. New York's Thruway commissioner has said he will not raise the limit above 55. He is appointed, not elected, and doesn't have to answer to the legislature. No one can directly overturn his ruling, although the governor could fire him if it becomes a big enough issue. That is a long way from democracy and reflecting societies morals. You are on much firmer ground (at least in New York) with your stand on software, both morally, and on statistical compliance. -don perley -- -don perley perley@crd.ge.com
griff@intelob.intel.com (Richard Griffith) (08/09/89)
In article <5021@alvin.mcnc.org> raw@mcnc.org (Russell Williams) writes: >In article <119606@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >>In article <4030@cps3xx.UUCP> porkka@frith.UUCP (Joe Porkka) writes: >> [stuff deleted] >>BBe _definition_, anyone breaking the law is antisocial. That's true >>if you go 60MPH in a 55MPH zone, or you pirate software. >> >>or have your machine confiscated. No one cares. Just like the highway >>patrol doesn't care that you were on a straight road, on a clear day, >>with 20 mile visibility. >> >>To the person who walked into the science fiction convention with >>all of the pirate software. Call the cops, throw them in jail. Every >>person in the room with a disk can be tried and convicted of receiving >>stolen property, and the people who put on the convention can just >>be convicted of theft. If it is the moral responsibility of every citizen >>to obey the laws it is also the moral responsibility to report to the >>enforcement arm of society when they are broken. >> [ humorous sarcastic reply deleted] > Most of us are antisocial to some degree. Many people will break the >law if they cannot conceive of any harm being done, while good comes to them >or others. Society makes rules which can at times be bad on the micro level >because they were constructed on the macro level. If you're willing to accept >what the law is as the definition of morality, then maybe you'd be happy in >an ant farm, but individuals have reasoning abilities which they excercise >in the discretion of how the greater good can be acheived. Whether or not >that includes copying is for the indivdual to decide, but my moral beliefs >are determined by my thoughts and experiences, not by what the majority >believes. What you have both said is, essentially, true. And, if the person who started this thread was SOOO upset over the amount of pirated software at that convention, he should have *called the police*. >period< You see, while there is corruption and thievery at virtually every level of our social structure, it isn't going to change until *everyone* starts to make that change. Yes, Piracy is a bad thing, whether that piracy is "I copied this program" or "Buy My NEW program ZYX, it's great - does x and y and z and it's Neat-O!" on the box of a piece of garbage software.. (Yes, IMHO that is piracy also, If I buy the right painting to put on my software box, You'll buy it) . Face it, this society isn't "moral"...(Think about it - a womans bare breast on national television is anethma to the "morals" of the majority - but just last sunday night I saw a piece of a show where a woman's leg was ripped off... This is Moral???? "Do unto others..." :-^ ) Don't drag the "morals of society" into this - society has no morals, or if those morals exist - they're perverted. (back to comp.sys.amiga, sorry for the social commentary) Is there a lot of piracy on the Amiga? Sure. More than other systems? Nah - I once saw a pirated copy of the ENTIRE SOURCE CODE FOR MESSY-DOS... yep source code. For the whole bloody ball of bat guano... I haven't seen anything like that for the Amy yet... Games? yep, lots. "Application" software, most, altho the pirate I talked to lamented that nobody wanted to copy *that* save to have an unprotected copy they could easily backup instead of the one they *bought*. You see, productivity software is really hard to use without manuals... (unlike MS-dos's Lotus, which has been pirated heavily, thanks to much cheaper "third-party" user manuals all over the market) So to whoever started this mess: You don't want to develop for a machine that has rampant piracy - Fine, develop for the apple I - I'm sure there isn't much piracy there, course, there isn't much of a market either. IMHO, you probably got scared off by the Amiga's OS - it takes a little more expertise to develop under AmigaDOS/Intuition than it does under most other machines. so... - griff -- :Richard E. Griffith, "griff" : BiiN, Hillsboro Ore. :SCA!: Cyrus Hammerhand, Household of the Golden Wolf, Dragons' Mist, An Tir :These are MY opinions, if BiiN wanted them, They'd pay for `em!
jones@uv4.eglin.af.mil (Calvin Jones, III) (06/11/90)
"saify.lanewala" <saify@cbnewsl.att.com> writes: [Lots of praise to Fred Fish deleted here. 'Though I *CERTAINLY* agree with all of it. FF is one thing that the Amy has going that NO other machine has!} First, let me open by saying that I run a legitimate BBS. I've never promoted piracy and never will! > I'll open myself up for flames and say that I feel that BBSes are much > more vulnerable to the distribution of pirated software and/or software > infringing on copyrights than other types software archive sources, such > as the Fred Fish collection, xanth, uunet etc. BBSs are really no more vulernable than most other methods of distribution. It's just that you see a lot more BBSs run by these "neeto /<oo/ |>oods" with all their latest "warez". While I'm somewhat older (and, I hope wiser) I realize that I can't afford litigation concerning software piracy. I've got a wife, kid, and dog to support! It is a *REAL* problem. And I've been contacted by author's representatives twice. The first time, an individual uploaded the first brain file for Marauder II to the BBS. The file was not labeled as being written by DSI, and the only instructions were to place the file in the L: directory. The next morning at 10:30AM Rick Ross from DSI logged on the BBS and requested (very nicely) that I call him collect about the file. I removed the file and called him (on my dime) immediately. He was quite understanding about the whole thing. It seemed that someone logged on his BBS with a fictitious name and left a message that he should check out that file on my BBS. Seems someone may have been out to get me! The second case was due to an individual leaving many detailed messages concerning the changes implemented in Transformer 1.2. Somehow, Simile got wind of his discussions and wanted information on how he came to have the copy. I cooperated with them and provided the name, address and phone number of the individual (reputed to be the largest "collector" in the local area.) > Perhaps there is a way in which we can attempt to control the > dissemination of such problem software if everyone who maintains an > archive were to clear any software submissions through the ASP. How do we "control" dissemination of software. I think the best avenue would be one of education. I'd certainly be willing to post any and all "press releases" concerning raids on BBS operators that were running pirate boards. Most of the callers to my BBS are aware of my thoughts on this matter and will let me know immediately if there is any question about any submission. They realize that I will immediately remove anything that is questionable. And what is the ASP? How would I go about clearing the latest submissions to my BBS through the ASP? I can't spend a lot of time nor money calling out. > I'm sure such an approach would be a pain for quite a few of us, but in > the long run, it would help more than hinder the growth of the software > industry. Speaking for myself, I would be spend less time worrying > about my applications being pirated and more time developing a > professional product if I had confidence that there were more people > with integrity out there than without. I think that more of us have integrity than don't. Unfortunately, it doesn't take too many without integrity to do a lot of harm. > Any thoughts? I'd like to see some sort of active effort to close down pirate BBSs. In every case, it seems that you have to upload commercial software to gain access, so anyone that is not a pirate cannot gain access without committing a crime. Perhaps some authors could upload special "demo" versions of their programs to obtain access to "elite" sections of these BBSs and then file formal charges against the operators. > Please, if you must, flame me by e-mail -- don't waste bandwidth. > > Saify Lanewala > .. att!attunix!stl --- Cal ____ HOBBIT / / / 340 Meg Online HOLE / / / 12/24/9600HST bps AMIGA: ____ / / / Exclusively Amiga \ \ \/ / / "Best Amiga BBS in FL" The computer for the BEST of us! \ \ \/ / July, 1989 Final List(tm) \_\_\/ A comfortable place to meet -------------------------------------- Cal Jones, Sysop. 904-243-6219 24Hrs "I'll show you my file list if you'll show me yours."
saify@cbnewsl.att.com (saify.lanewala) (06/14/90)
In article <21678@snow-white.udel.EDU>, jones@uv4.eglin.af.mil (Calvin Jones, III) writes: [ responding to my earlier post re piracy] > > First, let me open by saying that I run a legitimate BBS. I've never > promoted piracy and never will! > [ I made some comments about BBSes being more vulnerable to piracy than FF, xanth etc.] > > BBSs are really no more vulernable than most other methods of > distribution. It's just that you see a lot more BBSs run by these > "neeto /<oo/ |>oods" with all their latest "warez". While I'm somewhat > older (and, I hope wiser) I realize that I can't afford litigation > concerning software piracy. I've got a wife, kid, and dog to support! > > How do we "control" dissemination of software. I think the best avenue > would be one of education. I'd certainly be willing to post any and all > "press releases" concerning raids on BBS operators that were running > pirate boards. Most of the callers to my BBS are aware of my thoughts > on this matter and will let me know immediately if there is any question > about any submission. They realize that I will immediately remove > anything that is questionable. > > And what is the ASP? How would I go about clearing the latest > submissions to my BBS through the ASP? I can't spend a lot of time nor > money calling out. > > I think that more of us have integrity than don't. Unfortunately, it > doesn't take too many without integrity to do a lot of harm. > > > I'd like to see some sort of active effort to close down pirate BBSs. In > every case, it seems that you have to upload commercial software to gain > access, so anyone that is not a pirate cannot gain access without > committing a crime. Perhaps some authors could upload special "demo" > versions of their programs to obtain access to "elite" sections of these > BBSs and then file formal charges against the operators. > > > --- Cal > ____ > Cal Jones, Sysop. 904-243-6219 24Hrs > Sorry to include such a long posting. Naturally, as I'm sure you all understand, I don't mean to imply that *ALL* BBSes are problematical. I would suppose that there are potential difficulties with ftp sites, except that access to such sites requires a few more resources than the average BBS. What are your thoughts on charging a fee for people to join a BBS? Lots of them do that right now. My presumption is that a fee would restrict the amount of participation to "serious" folk. Perhaps another way would be to advertise all the known pirate BBSes, so we can start boycotting them. I'm sure that alone would not stop them, but it would send a message that we're serious about stopping software piracy. Unfortunately, I think it's also going to require software developers to start providing "limited functionality" demos on selected sites/BBSes so that people can try before they buy. As far as the ASP is concerned, they are a professional organization that attempts to monitor and control software piracy. Perhaps the ASP could take the lead in this and distribute a newsletter periodically identifying problem software. It's not ideal, but at least it would raise a flag. As you mention, personal integrity is the key. Much as I don't like copy-protected software, I can understand why we have it. I want to emphasize again that I have no solutions, only opinions and questions. I want to start some meaningful dialogue and search for possible ways out of this mess. Most of all, I want us all to avoid flaming each other, because it invariably causes the discussions to go off on a tangent. Saify Lanewala .. att!attunix!stl
umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Daryl Turner) (08/19/90)
In article <rps2.1506@amoeba2.UUCP> rps2@amoeba2.UUCP (Rick Stevens) writes: > >Actually, doing even 1 copy of a copyrighted program is pirating. If the >program is copyrighted, you make a copy, and sell it, you've infringed on >the copyright and you are a pirate. > >I don't wanna start another flame fest or thread regarding what is and isn't >pirating, but in my book if you have a copyrighted program and didn't get it >from the publisher or a distribution channel (retailer, distributor, etc.) >authorized by the publisher, then you own a pirated program. Period. Are you saying that a person re-selling software bought is a pirate? For example, I recently bought myself an Amiga 500. Now, my collection of software for my Commodore 128 is useless to me. If I do as I plan, and sell the computer with the software, you deem me a pirate, when all I am trying to do is recoup some of the expense that I occurred in owning my 128. Daryl Turner <umturne4@ccu.umanitoba.ca>